Indian Interests

[Prem]

I take my words back that he has started returning to his roots .
Stupid of me to not to realize that just like chinese made plastic Christmans tree ,he was never planted but moulded onlee.

[surinder]

Surinder,
This brings me back to a earlier question that I had raised. Most of us have no clue about our history or religion and interplay of various forces which shape our culture,society or history.
We have become rootless society which would accept every piece of trash from people who have nothing but contempt for us.
Examply, Outside Arya Samaj, How many people are aware of the work that Swami Dayanand or Swami Shradhanand did.
And Mr. Das makes us feel that Hindus were somehow afraid of *Sikhs* around them.

I am reminded of a couplet by Zafar-II...

Tujhe dushmano ka pata na tha, mujhe dosto ki khabar na thi..

Vikas:

Nice couplet.

One need not worry if Das was an isolated example of someone who does not know and does not *care*. The problem is more deep-rooted than that. Someone had written that India does not have a culture of Strategic thinking. We seem to have a culture of not assdiously cultivating alliances and friendships. We sleep walk into traps of our enemies and regard trusted friendships as disposable. It is more than simply not knowing history. It is a lack of forward thinking and/or planning for the future.

(This may not be the most apt thread for developing this idea any further.)

[AjayKK]

I take my words back that he has started returning to his roots .
Stupid of me to not to realize that just like chinese made plastic Christmans tree ,he was never planted but moulded onlee.

Actually, Dharmic considerations aside, one needs to look at what work Mr.Gurcharan Das is doing with his influence.

He and M. S. Swaminathan ( of Green Revolution fame ) are the most vocal supporters of introducing Genetically Modified crops in India.

The various MS Swaminathan Task Force(s) on Ag biotechnology( One and Two) gave its recommendations on GM crops. Though it is critical of the failed Bt cotton, the main pont emphasised is to usher in the 'Gene Revolution'.

GM crops are not just reduce diversity diversity in nature , but are expensive as well.
A bag of traditional cotton seeds costs Rs 400-500.
A GM bag of cotton seeds by Mon-santo costs Rs. 1600-2000 and one has to buy its readymade pesticide 'Round-UP' which kills ALL other standing plants and crops except the GM variety planted.

Ushering a Gene Revolution is not in the Indian Interest , but at considerable cost to Indian agriculture

All research points out that GM crops and seeds are harmful, still we want to and are implementing the same. Surely, this is the cost of the N-deal that may /may not see the light of the day..

[AjayKK]

Continuing , the GM crops are not only harmful, expensive and diversity-destroyers, they are the means to control the entire spectrum of agriculture from seeds, fertilisers and pesticides.

They also cause new unheard of 'bugs' which can be eliminated only if 'appropriate pesticide' is used.

Farmers, beware of the mealy bug!
NAGPUR; Cotton cultivators in Vidarbha may have reaped a bounty from the genetically modified Bt cotton last season but they should guard against mealy bug which attacks it. Last year it caused widespread devastation to cotton crop in Punjab, in India and Pakistan.

While the Bt seed can fight American bollworm, failure to use appropriate pesticide in time could lead to infestation of mealy bug. In Malwa region of Punjab, the snow-white sap-sucking bug covered large tracts of crop and destroyed a good crop, according to Vidarbha Jan Andolan Samiti president Kishor Tiwari.

According to him, buoyed by better results of Bt cotton, this year there are chances of the transgenic cotton seed of the American company, which has issued license to Indian companies, being sown in around three million hectares — nearly double the areas grown in last year. "But mealy bug that attacks Bt cotton has already arrived. It could pose a big threat to cotton growers in western Vidarbha whose dependence on Bt seeds is now total,’ warned Tiwari.

The farm activist has claimed to have written to prime minister Manmohan Singh to intervene in the matter and call for urgent steps to ban Bt seeds in Vidarbha to avoid the mealy bug infestation. "The bug attack was noticed in some areas of Vidarbha by late December. As the kharif season was coming to an end then, the damage was limited. But it spread to weeds and garden plants around the fields. Once Bt crop is grown in mid-June in the new kharif season, the mealy bug may multiply rapidly and destroy the fresh kharif crop," said Tiwari.

Fighting the bug is a very costly affair and involves intensive spraying of toxic chemical pesticides. The additional cost it entailed brought heavy losses to Punjab farmers last season. "The Vidarbha farmers who are already reeling under a debt and distress cycle could face a tough time if timely action is not taken," warned Tiwari. Andhra Pradesh government has advised farmers to avoid Bt seeds and a switch over to organic farming, he claimed. Divisional joint director of agriculture K J Nandeshwar could not be contacted for comment on preventive action.

Even in the above report, theTimesofIndia is not without its class-sick spin.
Firstly, 'Vidarbha may have reaped a bounty from the genetically modified Bt cotton last season'. The crop was a disaster, There was no 'bounty' from it.
Secondly, which is the 'American company'? Obviously it is Mon-santo.
Finally here is the pic of the all-destroying Measly bug.
Picture

And we are planting GM food and crops on a war footing in India

[ramana]

There is strong political need to co-opt the Mughals as our bast*** and not let the other defne them for us. This will take away the raison d'etre of the Islamists in Indian sub-contient.

The British justify their imperialism in India by highlighting the 'jahiliya' of the later Mughals and the pre-Mughal India. The glorious past of Hindu India is thrown into the ancient and thus unreachable past. The whole modern narrative is based on this so called decline of India- Hindu and Muslim whereas in that period India was one of the richest and culturally advanced nation in the world.
While the British period hisotrians talk of the barbarity of the Muslim rule how different was it from the barbarity of the British after 1857 when millions were killed or disappeared in North India? Or the huge number of deaths in famines of the colonial period?And all this is suppressed.

Rekha Mishra in her study on Aurangazeb does this but does not have wide publicity.

[anishns]

S Asians top US spelling contests

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7443800.stm

As far as I can remember, it has always been Indians winning spelling bee contests in the US. In fact, many winners of physics/math olympiad's have also been predominantly Indians rather than other South Asians.

What is the problem with this western media of referring to us as Indians or S.Asians? when it suits them? I am not a racist but, its always the case that the role of Indians for genuine accomplishments are never highlighted.

Yes, when it comes to human rights, poverty, illiteracy woes we are always pointed out as Indians and not S.Asians even when the status of other S.Asian countries is on par or worse than India's

Apologies if this is not the right thread for this piece.

[surinder]

S Asians top US spelling contests

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7443800.stm

As far as I can remember, it has always been Indians winning spelling bee contests in the US. In fact, many winners of physics/math olympiad's have also been predominantly Indians rather than other South Asians.

What is the problem with this western media of referring to us as Indians or S.Asians? when it suits them? I am not a racist but, its always the case that the role of Indians for genuine accomplishments are never highlighted.

Yes, when it comes to human rights, poverty, illiteracy woes we are always pointed out as Indians and not S.Asians even when the status of other S.Asian countries is on par or worse than India's

Apologies if this is not the right thread for this piece.

Indians have been "South-Asianised" which sounds similar to Euthanized, which is what this term is about. I hold nothing but disgust for this term, and I think all Indians should too. But unfortunately, you will find normal Indians take to this new term with glee. Talk about blindly walking into a trap.

[ramana]

X-Posted from NUKKAD.

Dear Nukkadites,

I had the “sowbhagyam” of meeting with a self-professed “left-leaning” intellectual yesterday. A brief background about the gentleman: he is a beef-eating, Tamil Brahmin (by birth), missionary school educated, IIM Graduate, about 45 yrs old, reached US some 15 years ago at the age of 30 or so, is an established management scholar, knows Balaji Sampath (of AID and “ranked 6th in JEE!”) personally, and thinks that Madhav Chavan of Pratham is a very famous person in India (sorry, but I heard this name for the first time!).

We had an approximately two hours “chat” in presence of American/Chinese folks. Well, actually, I and others prompted the gentleman and the gentleman talked and talked and talked. The Chinese and the Church going audience were enthralled by the gentleman’s thoughts about India.

What I heard directly from the horses mouth (this was my first direct interaction with a left-leaning, otherwise intelligent, individual) confirmed what I had heard second/third hand from some folks here and at other places. Here is a summary of what I heard first hand (and I am not making it up!):

1. India is a notional country.
2. The person openly professed that he is not an Indian because of (1) above.
3. In any case, this person is not comfortable being a part of the culture “that oppresses 600 million people”.
4. India has occupied Kashmir (and Juna Garh and Hyderabad to a lesser extent) by fraudulent means. Therefore, the people of Kashmir should decide whether they want to be a part of India or not.
5. Not only the Kashmiri terrorists, but also, LTTE folks are “freedom fighters”. LTTE “freedom fighters” are fighting for “liberation” of Tamil Nadu as well.
6. It is okay, in fact “logical”, if large chunks of India break away – special focus was on Kashmir, followed by Assam and the rest of the North East.
7. The gentleman’s inspiration to work comes from Jesus’s sermon on the mount. When I asked him whether he had heard anything about bhakti, karma, & jnana yoga, he answered in affirmative. But, of course, Indian philosophy cannot guide any good action.
8. Gujrat riots was a “pogrom” since the “entire government machinery was involved in the massacre”. Also a total of “5300” people were killed. Thankfully, the gentleman knew that about 25-30% of them were Hindus.
9. When I asked about “communist goons” in Kerala killing other people, the gentleman laughed it away.
10. There is no religious motive for Pakistan’s support to terrorism in Kashmir. The only thing they want is to avenge separation of Bangladesh, which makes terrorism and Pakistani support to it “understandable”.
11. Maintaining military in Kashmir costs “thousands” of crores annually. Therefore, we should allow it to separate.
12. India should not have any big dreams. In particular, the pursuit of UNSC seat takes away from poverty alleviation. And, in any case, UNSC seat is only to veto the Kashmir issue when required.
13. Indians should not be proud of their heritage and culture, not even be aware about it, since it does not matter at all. In any case, there is nothing at all to be proud about.
14. India is in an absolutely bad shape, and will continue to be in it. Nothing has improved at all on social, educational, technological fronts since independence.
15. “Aryans” did invade India and Dravids, especially Tamils, are the “original” inhabitants of India.
16. Communist support to India’s invasion in 1962 is okay since “Hindu parties also supported the British.”
17. India should not spend too much on defense (thankfully, he did not advocate zero spending). Places such as Siachin are especially useless and it costs thousands of crores to maintain troops there. We should also give up our “completely useless” territory where “not a blade of grass grows.” (reminded me so much of our Late Pt. Jawaharlal Nehru)

As we know, this guy and the ideology he represents is a grave threat to the Indian nation. E.g., Pratham reaches several million kids (or so they claim). I wonder whether this sort of “education” includes “deIndianizing” kids and turn them into self-loathing citizens and an easy target for our various friends from abroad.

I am sure everyone here does their bit to counter this challenge. To those who don’t, this is my humble request to do whatever they can to counter this threat the Indian nationhood. Every small action counts. Buy and distribute nationalist books, visit nationalist workers in the field – it’s a morale booster for them, donate, write articles, deliver lectures, organize shows, educate friends in US and India etc. - do whatever you can. Visiting BR is very good, but please be a BRF-ite in the real world as well (if you are not, that is)!

On a broader level, why does Indian education system produce people with such attitudes? How do we fix it? When Chinese communists can be Chinese nationalists and Cuban communists can be Cuban nationalists, why can't Indian communists be Indian nationalists?


A

[Stan_Savljevic]

Anniversary of Santal Rebellion in the British era on June 30
Wiki link
Clicky1

[sanjaychoudhry]

Regarding the leftist intellectual from Tamil Nadu who eats beef and is inspired by the sermon on the mount. There is a very strong possibility that he may not be a Hindu at all but a secret convert. (Most Tamil bodies in US and various Tamil Sangams that oppose any change in representation of Hinduism in American schools and come out in support of Michael Witzel are actually run by Christians under a fake Tamil Dravidian identity.) The Church is carrying out major operations over Tamils to radicalise them against Hindus and India, leveraging their "dravidian" hatred of north Indians. (Hinduism by them is labelled as a religion of north India.)

There are many Indian converts burning with the hatred of Semitic fundamentalism against India who cleverly use "leftism" as a conveneint shield to spit out their venom at the "Hindu" country.

Also, it is about time India had its own version of the Patriot Act so that such people can be charged with treason and promoting sedition. There are enough Binayak Sens running around in America working against India, with the blessings of enemies of the country such as Bibile thumpers and the ISI-infiltrated SAJA crowd. How will these people learn correct behaviour if whatever they do against India goes unpunished and unacknowledged?

The problem is that the champagne-sipping leftist / liberals of India have made treason against the state fashionable. As long as there are unthinking Hindus stupid enough to keep voting Commies and Congress into power, this problem will continue. Who can save a race if it lacks even the basic intelligence to identify its mortal enemies?

[Keshav]

Also, it is about time India had its own version of the Patriot Act so that such people can be charged with treason and promoting sedition. There are enough Binayak Sens running around in America working against India, with the blessings of enemies of the country such as Bibile thumpers and the ISI-infiltrated SAJA crowd. How will these people learn correct behaviour if whatever they do against India goes unpunished and unacknowledged?

People don't trust the Indian government for food, how could you possibly trust it to determine (without due process) that someone should be jailed/deported/killed? That is a very dangerous line of thinking. You can't trust everyone to be Vikramaditya and pass fair judgment on everyone and we shouldn't.

Going unpunished is one thing, punishing them without a trial is not ethical and will only give the very leftists you dislike another reason to hate India.

[vsudhir]

Aaah....finally....was wondering when it would come.... a demand for an Indian McCarthy commission.

Bad idea, IMO.

The best way forward is to expose leftist and psec lies the hard way - through the battle for hearts and minds, fought inch by inch. Anything else is maya. BTW, the battle ain't as hard as it looks simply because the good guys (that is, us - dharmics, cultural nationalists, yindutwah-wah-dis etc) hold the (moral and historical) high ground. Simply put, truth is on our side.

Like the pandavas preferred one Krishna over entire armies to be on their side, I'd rather we be right than merely be victorious.

[abhischekcc]

vsudhir,
You invoke Krishna and oppose koot-niti.
Our enemies see our decency as our weakness to be exploited.

We should hit them where it hurts most. No need to be an 'argumentative Indian'.

[abhischekcc]

Keshav,

Leftists do not hate India for any reason. They never needed a reason to hate India. Hatred is within the founding fabric of this creed.

They will not understand you if you talk to them, they understand only violence.

Laaton ke boot, baaton se nahin maante.

[vsudhir]

Abycc,

How does it follow that moi opposes kootniti??

No sar, Drive the roller full steam ahead into the musha-roughs of the wicked! I have no qualms and conscience when dealing destruction to those who would merrily destroy us (the TSPians for one).

The traitorous left is a poisoned pen. Exterminating them is == civil war. And they excel in human shields, human sacrifice, holding all progress hostage, sleeping with the enemy and in general inflicting a scorched earth policy not seen since the first islamic bandit crossed the Khyber. Not exactly what we're looking to inflict on our own territory.

An open war at this stage is premature. It will discredit the good guys. A COIN is the way fwd.

Smoke out these dorks. Let their past writings and words expsoe their relaity. Shutting them up == sh1tting them down to the romantic underground - Che Guevera style.

Methinks, the policy I was advocating is already in practice and is already showing prelim results. The lefty psecs are on the backfoot. Their propaganda is paying diminishing returns. Their credibility is in tatters. Their electoral influence is also waning (having waxed in 2004). An Arun Shourie as HRD mantri is all we need to keep the intellectual terrorists at bay (and an NM as griha mantri to keep the literal terrorists at bay). Aha.

[Keshav]

Keshav,

Leftists do not hate India for any reason. They never needed a reason to hate India. Hatred is within the founding fabric of this creed.

They will not understand you if you talk to them, they understand only violence.

Why is that people are so willing to advocate war all the time? After tens of hundreds of regimes, you'd think some people would learn. Using violence is not the answer for the long term. You have to win hearts and minds. You have to make people feel from the bottom of their heart that they are correct and not being forced to believe in something external to themselves. If you want nationalists, you need people who can connect to the average person on even ground. Indians are already very distrustful of the government, using violence only cements that idea and does not breed nationalists - give them food, water, housing, jobs, etc. and you'll gain nationalists.

And by the way, you're talking about your own countrymen. That's something you should also remember.

Laaton ke boot, baaton se nahin maante.

I don't understand Hindi. Could you translate that?

Methinks, the policy I was advocating is already in practice and is already showing prelim results. The lefty psecs are on the backfoot. Their propaganda is paying diminishing returns. Their credibility is in tatters. Their electoral influence is also waning (having waxed in 2004). An Arun Shourie as HRD mantri is all we need to keep the intellectual terrorists at bay (and an NM as griha mantri to keep the literal terrorists at bay). Aha.

Sounds like wishful thinking to me. Where are the objective news outlets? Where are the academics? Where are the schools?

[Rahul M]

First of all let me admit that the POV described above is a threat.
I had posted on a similar topic in the TIE thread some moons back.

coming from bengal, I interact with a large no commies on a daily basis.
The observations that I have gleaned out of that is pretty interesting !

to put it in a few points :

1) Differentiate
Be careful to differentiate b/w the misguided/misinformed type and the dyed in
the wool variety.There are a LOT of the first kind and thankfully, very few of the
second kind. while dealing with them keep in mind that while these people
(both groups together) have considerable influence and power, demographically,
they constitute a miniscule portion of India's populace.

2) Disagree
As for the second group, who have no hope of seeing the light, disagree with
him/her spiritedly w/o crossing the line of decency. always keep a smiling face
and take personal insults in your stride. preferrably, all this should be done in front of
others. in this case you are actually communicating with the others, not the person
him/herself. put the message across that you come from a culture where civilized
intellectual arguments are encouraged and form a part of mainstream.

3) Reeducate
Identify and reeducate the former group.

4) Don't Corner
Avoid calling them names and never categorize them into groups e.g psec etc.
or for that matter, don't ask "are you a communist ?" you will be pushing the person
into a corner and into the embraces of the other camp.

5) Men are vain
MOST would in fact pretend that their world view is essentially unique to
them -- intellectual vanity if you will. They would admit to leftist 'influences' but
won't concede that they are communist.

6) Use Knowledge
Use this, feed him/her information he/she can't refute (this imho is the most important part)
and let their percieved fairness of judgement take its own course.

7) Respect
do not thrust your views/judgements on the other person however superior
those may be. respect the other's views.

8) One-to-one
resistance to relearning is very low if you converse with the person in absence of a
3rd party. there are 2 reasons for this -- he/she will not fear a loss of face and the
absence of group pressure will enable him/her to embrace new ideas w/o inhibition.

9) Try Again
even if you don't succeed at first, don't lose hope. try again a few times
before giving up. frequently, the barrier diminishes without being apparent.

10) Be Informed
this IS war by a different name. we better be prepared. arm yourself with
knowledge/information with credible sources. do not use info that can be
refuted by refuting the source. you will be providing your opponent with an excuse
to bash you.

11) Keep the guns ready
prepare responses to the standard set of India bashing points beforehand.
e.g when told that religion is the cause of all problems, agree and assert that
communism is also a religion. or you could counter the "religion killed the most no
of men" argument by pointing out the no killed by communism in the short span of a
hundred years (stalin,mao,pol pot for starters). of course, don't forget to mention
that NAZI had a 'socialist' somewhere among the alphabet soup !

So concludeth the 11 commandments !!

I have applied/observed all of the above and I have been successful beyond my wildest
expectations. the persons I applied the above on were mostly hardcore bengal variety
commies. they don't come in much harder versions.
It seems the cover of commie thinking is only skin deep. in most cases the right thinking
was already there, it could not come out in fear of antagonizing their peer group.

[vsudhir]

Keshav

Sounds like wishful thinking to me. Where are the objective news outlets? Where are the academics? Where are the schools?

And wishful thinking it may well be for now.

The good guys haven't yet gotten their tertiary edu infra in place. but primary and secondary levels - from van vikas kendras and ekalavya vidyalayas for instance to reconversion programs and anti-maoist police and civil militia action have made great progress over the past decade.

Under MM Joshi, the NCERT textbooks were rewritten but Arjun Singh promptly 'detoxified' and marxified them again. This see-saw will continue but there is some hope on the horizon. There are some indications that a BJP sarkar in power next time might free Majority edu institutions from constitutional tyranny. If Hindu edu institutions can be granted the rights and privileges available to minority edu instutes, things change hugely over the span of the 5 yrs of sarkar rule.

Further, deregulation and freeing from govt controls of our temples (not yet on BJP's national manifesto even though many state BJP units have proclaimed it - HP and Guj, for instance) can make temple wealth a focal point for further culturation and stopping the soul harvestors and other assorted culture vultures from feeding off our poor and dispossesed.

Sure, expect the marxists, the moulvis and the missionaries tomake a hue and cry (none louder than the macaulayites, btw). Expect the 'world media' to stage manage a campaign of lampooning and stiffnecked condesencion. Expect every second psec sentence to connect 'yindoo' with 'nazi' in every second sentence. Etc. But that is where a Shourie or Modi or Jaitley is needed - to not flinch whilst speaking truth to frothing indignation, malevolent madness, and agenda-driven accusations of fascism/betrayal/unconstitutionalism/anti-xtianism/anti-minorityism/communalism etc etc.

Long way to go, I know. But hey, the fact that we are talking in terms of possibilities is itself a long way to have come, no?

Std disclaimers hold. JMTPs, IMVHOs etc.
/Have a nice day, all.

[sevoke]

TOI report:
ISLAMABAD: China is keen on joining the $7.5 billion Iran-Pakistan-India (IPI) gas pipeline project and will send a delegation to Pakistan for negotiations on the deal, a Pakistan petroleum ministry official said on Thursday.

"We had sent a formal proposal to China to join the project earlier this month and have received a positive response," the official said on condition of anonymity.

He said that a Chinese delegation will soon visit Pakistan for initial talks and may also undertake a trip to Iran.

The IPI pipeline is a proposed 2,775-km-long pipeline to deliver natural gas from Iran to Pakistan and India. The official said that China has asked for some more information about the project, which Pakistan would be furnishing "very soon".

When asked if Iran was willing to supply gas to China, the official said: "We invited China after seeking Iran's consent."

The project was mooted in 1990 with expectations that it will benefit both India and Pakistan, who do not have sufficient natural gas to meet their rapidly increasing domestic demand for energy. However, it was delayed due to several reasons, including New Delhi's security concerns.

Pakistan, which is keen on buying gas because of its own diminishing gas reserves, is looking at China to make the project a reality if India decides to pull out.

During his last visit to China, President Pervez Musharraf had tried to convince his counterpart Hu Jintao to join the project.

The petroleum ministry official said that Pakistan had also asked the Chinese government to conduct a detailed feasibility study of the gas pipeline. There has been no progress on the project since a dialogue was held between Pakistan and India in Islamabad in April.

"We are very keen to undertake the project with India but we are no more getting any positive signals from Delhi," said the official.

The deal reached a setback on July 16, 2006 when Iran demanded a price of $7.20 per million British thermal unit ($6.80/GJ) of gas against India's offer of $4.20 per million British thermal unit ($4.00/GJ). The Indian spokesperson stated that the price offered by Iran was more than 50 percent above the prevailing market price in India.

India and Pakistan finally agreed in February 2007 to pay Iran $4.93 per million British thermal units ($4.67/GJ) but some details relating to price adjustment remained open to further negotiation. There was a breakthrough in the talks in April 2008 when Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad visited Pakistan and India.

The Indian government has called for trilateral talks on the project next month but no date has been fixed.

According to the project proposal, the pipeline will begin from Asalouyeh and stretch over 1,100 km through Iran. In Pakistan, it will pass through Balochistan and Sindh but officials now say the route may be changed if China agrees to the project.

The gas will be supplied from the South Pars field. The initial capacity of the pipeline will be 22 billion cubic metre of natural gas per annum, which is expected to be later raised to 55 billion cubic metre. It is expected to cost $7.5 billion.

"If all goes well, the construction of the pipeline may begin by March 2009 and get completed by September --2012," the official said.- ToI
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Time and time again there seems to be a lack of sense of emergency by the GoI in closing deals or implementing projects. And then they make lame statements like "we are committed to the project".
Meanwhile pissmillah pakis never lose an oppurtunity to please their chinese masters.

[Rye]

Did people think of why the IPI is a good concept as long as it exists and does not get implemented? Chai-biskooth while presenting the picture of cooperation...ideal stance for India.

[sevoke]

yea..but the entry of the chinese will change the game from GoI enjoying it chai-biskoot to losing its sleep over another lost oppurtunity.

[Rye]

sevoke wrote:

yea..but the entry of the chinese will change the game from GoI enjoying it chai-biskoot to losing its sleep over another lost oppurtunity.

You mean "lost oppurtunity" to have the pipelines exploded by ISI/pakjihadis or one of the other 100 million violent pakis? Pakistan needs to unravel further before any such pipeline can be allowed. Good luck to the pakis running a pipeline through their territory to China -- I am sure the Paki army has enough enemies who will want to "reconstruct" the pipeline using vaccum technology every month.

[sevoke]

Did people think of why the IPI is a good concept as long as it exists and does not get implemented? Chai-biskooth while presenting the picture of cooperation...ideal stance for India.

yea..but the entry of the chinese will change the game from GoI enjoying its chai-biskoot to losing its sleep over another lost oppurtunity. the Indo-US nuclear deal seems to be going nowhere either. at least one(both in an ideal situation) of these energy projects will be crucial for meeting the energy requirements in the future. If the chinese steal the IIPL from us or join it, thats a psy blow and relegates us to being seen as playing second fiddle rather than initiators or committed in other promising energy markets.

[Rye]

sevoke wrote:

at least one(both in an ideal situation) of these energy projects will be crucial for meeting the energy requirements in the future.

The IPI project is not getting off the ground as long as Pakistan is what it is, a jihadi hellhole about to implode.
Who is going to insure/assure the security of any such pipeline through pakistan? What kind of energy requirements will be satisfied with a pipeline that can be turned off by some jihadi group with some plastic explosive....both of which are available in abundance in Pakistan (jihadis and semtex, that is). The IPI is a wet dream as long as pakistan is unstable whether or not china is involved.

If the chinese steal the IIPL from us or join it, thats a psy blow and relegates us to being seen as playing second fiddle rather than initiators or committed in other promising energy markets.

"second fiddle" to exploding pipelines? okay, please carry on with your whining. Sorry to intrude.

[sevoke]

The IPI project is not getting off the ground as long as Pakistan is what it is, a jihadi hellhole about to implode.
Who is going to insure/assure the security of any such pipeline through pakistan? What kind of energy requirements will be satisfied with a pipeline that can be turned off by some jihadi group with some plastic explosive....both of which are available in abundance in Pakistan (jihadis and semtex, that is). The IPI is a wet dream as long as pakistan is unstable whether or not china is involved.

implode? so, you are saying just because there are jihadis in pakistan all we have to do is do nothing, just sit back and wait till the problems are solved and finally, IF and when its all over and pakistan will turn into this ideal utopian state only then should india think about the IIPL? going by the same logic, india should give up developing infrastructure of any sort because there are insurgents in the north east? you sound meekier than the meekiest SDRE.

[Rye]

why don't you first elaborate who is going to guarantee the security of the pipeline and how are they going to do it when the place is in anarchy? NWFP is seeing covert warfare. It seems silly to get all before understanding that political instability in pakistan make it difficult for people to sink money into such projects, because of the real possibility that it may all go up in flames after years of effort.

However, the GoI has to pursue the possibility of such a pipeline in the future, if such stability ever returns....as they seem to be doing.

[sevoke]

The pipeline passes through Gwadar and Nawabshah. I cant specifically answer your question as to who and how security will be provided; its beyond my scope. I am sure all the involved parties have discussed this issue in detail way back in 2005 and continue to do so now. So i take it that providing security to IIPL is feasible otherwise they wouldnt have progressed so far. i doubt IIPL is chai-biskoot entertainment for the GoI. we are NOT there yet.

[Rye]

The route of the pipeline is irrelevant. the GoI finds it as an instrument to engage Pakistan, as far as I can tell.

[ashish raval]

Pakis are whimsical goats and nowhere in there is a writing what happens to gas supply in case of war between India and Pakistan !!!
I dont really get the idea why the fu** we want an IPI pipeline why dont we just put that money in developing or buying superfast tankers and telling Iran to do the same and transport the gas in liquified form to the west cost of India and build a gas transport corridor or gas pipeline to transfer it to various parts of India. I am sure it will be a much safer bet. Let Chicoms join the project and enjoy the bombings of pipeline. Pakistan should never be trusted even if God comes to President's dream and says go ahead with the pipeline project.
The only way out is give this money breaking porki goat into pieces.

[Avinash R]

Gas pipeline from pakistan into china. East turkistan freedom fighters will have an opportunity for year round IED-Mubarak. sevoke search for baluchistan freedom fighters blowing up gas pipelines in pakistan and tell us what you think of that.

[ramana]

From The Telegraph, 26 June 2008

OBSTACLE RACE
- States like Gujarat are impatient for a market-state
Swapan Dasgupta


In his new, much-acclaimed book, Terror and Consent: The Wars for the 21st Century, the American scholar, Philip Bobbit, has persuasively argued that the nation-state, a hallmark of the 20th century, is progressively yielding way to the market-state. Compared to the nation-state, the market-state “does not see the State as more than a minimal provider or redistributor. Whereas the nation state justified itself as an instrument to serve the welfare of the people (the nation), the market state exists to maximize the opportunities (of its citizens). Such a state depends on the international capital markets and, to a lesser extent, on modern multinational business network (including the news media and NGOs), in preference to management by national or transnational political bodies.”

Although Bobbit used these categories to plead for a more accurate understanding of the new terrorist menace, the shifting terrain of democratic statehood may help explain two completely unrelated developments: Ireland’s No vote in the June 12 referendum on the Treaty of Lisbon and the furore over Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi’s bid to refashion federal relations in India. Ireland’s clear rejection of the Treaty of Lisbon that would have transformed the European Union into a mega-state with overriding laws and a single foreign policy has been described by Europhiles as a monumental display of bloody-mindedness. There may be some truth in this assertion. An amateurish No campaign comprising an assortment of disparate causes, ranging from Irish nationalism and uncompromising Catholicism to libertarianism, did succeed in invoking the traditional Irish penchant for freedom and contrariness.

However, it was not all about an island’s innate suspicion of faceless bureaucrats in Brussels and their French and German masters. At a more serious level, as was convincingly argued by the maverick businessman, Declan Ganley, and his Libertas group, a Yes vote would have involved Ireland succumbing to uniformity and losing its competitive advantage. It is worth remembering that the emergence of the Celtic Tiger, as Ireland has often been called, didn’t happen merely because the country received a whopping 40 billion euros in aid from the EU since 1973. It also owed substantially to Ireland wooing multinational investment through generous tax incentives. A Yes vote would have forced fiscal uniformity down the throat of Dublin and made Ireland a less attractive destination for international capital.

Ireland was not rejecting its role in Europe; it was repudiating the right of a mega-state to remote control its affairs. A loss of national sovereignty has gone hand-in-hand with membership of multilateral bodies such as the EU and the World Trade Organization. The Irish No vote was a plea for defining the limits of this abdication. The message acquires importance because Ireland is not a rural backwater steeped in what Karl Marx would have called the “idiocy of rural life”; it is one of the fastest growing economies in the EU. There is a qualitative difference between Ireland demanding its own space and the Isle of Skye insisting it be left alone to wallow in its sheep and whisky.

The importance of a local space has never been really appreciated by a centralized State. Ever since nationalism was complemented by economic planning, national elites have assumed a monopoly over what it deems is the public good. In India, Jawaharlal Nehru was rightly concerned about building a modern nation-state out of a British raj that was founded on convenience and expediency. The British, in any case, always felt that India was a romantic construct that bore little relation to the kaleidoscope on the ground — an assertion that nationalists of all shades contested bitterly, sometimes with good reason.

Yet, Nehru’s alternative to the “night-watchman state” didn’t end with bolstering the steel frame, maintaining a professional army and subsuming indigenous arbitration with codified laws. He attempted to iron out the creases of nationhood with a constitutional order that was only nominally federal. The reality was an over-centralized State marked by a redistributive Centre — an agency that would channel resources by both defying the market and tailoring it to political convenience. West Bengal was an early casualty of this quest for uniform development, a principle that promoted inefficiency. A counter-factual history of post-Independence economic development may be able to identify the progress India may have made had Nehru and his daughter shown a greater sensitivity to the market. Certainly, the precipitate decline of Calcutta may not have happened if contrived measures such as the freight equalization of steel hadn’t been enforced.

It is in the context of post-liberalization India’s exasperation with babu raj that Narendra Modi’s outburst against the Centre’s iniquity has to be viewed. In a speech in Surat earlier this month, an angry Modi — fed up with petitioning Delhi for funds — said that he would have no objection to the Centre cutting off all “aid” as long as it simultaneously ensured that the Rs 40,000 crore or so raised from the state in Central taxes was spent on Gujarat, at least for a year.

Modi’s outburst occasioned a predictable outcry. The usual suspects from a hostile academia in Gujarat attacked his disrespect for federal principles. And a second-level Congress functionary, acting presumably on instructions, suggested that he be charged with sedition — an over-statement that Modi exploited to the hilt.

Cutting out the rhetorical flourishes, Modi’s argument corresponds to the needs of an emerging market-state. First, just as Ireland expressed its anger at bureaucrats in Brussels calling the shots at the behest of puppeteers in Berlin and Paris, Modi was calling into question the right of bodies like the Finance Commission and Planning Commission to determine the utilization of revenue. He would rather inject the process with a huge dose of market realism. Secondly, the Gujarat chief minister was questioning the very principle of a redistributive Centre.

A nation has some common obligations (the conduct of national security, foreign affairs and communication) and it may even feel the need to give the helping hand of subsidy to regions that need a leg up. However, apart from necessary obligations, the Centre cannot be allowed to ride roughshod over the interests of people and places that contribute to the exchequer. Modi’s contention that only 2.5 per cent of the taxes collected in Gujarat are ploughed back may or may not be exact — a Congress leader has argued the figure is more like 20 per cent. But his larger demand for taxation to be accompanied by accountability is crying out for a worthwhile political response.

The demand is certain to acquire greater urgency in the light of the Congress’s preference for the nation-state over the market-state. According to an article in Business Standard, in Congress-ruled Maharashtra, there is state procurement of cotton from the farmers which has burdened the state exchequer with accumulated losses of Rs 5,730 crore till 2005-06. In Gujarat, the state has used its resources to create an environment for better productivity — better irrigation and more technical know-how. In Maharashtra, cotton productivity is between 170 and 190 kg per hectare; in Gujarat, it is thrice as much. In 1991-92, Maharashtra produced 10.5 per cent of India’s cotton crop and Gujarat 12.7 per cent; in 2005-06, Maharashtra’s share rose to 14.8 per cent while Gujarat’s shot up to 36.5 per cent.

States such as Gujarat, which have outgrown the self-destructive socialism of the 20th century, are impatient for a market-state. India’s pseudo-federalism is a formidable obstacle to the country realizing its full potential.

Need to ponder if there are fixes that need to be implemented to prevent centrifugal tendencies due to obstinate and obsolete constructs. Its clear that command economies are bankrupting the State and with the high cost of energy it will only get worse. What unravelled the Mughals was the state expenditure not being in sync with revenues and farming out revenues to outsiders.

[ShauryaT]

Need to ponder if there are fixes that need to be implemented to prevent centrifugal tendencies due to obstinate and obsolete constructs. Its clear that command economies are bankrupting the State and with the high cost of energy it will only get worse. What unravelled the Mughals was the state expenditure not being in sync with revenues and farming out revenues to outsiders.

Ramana: I have come to the conclusion that these so called centrifugal tendencies have been over sold and other viable options could have been used, instead of continuing the unitary state model of the colonial era, with a nominal concept of federalism and a complete ba$tardization of the market economy.

On this issue Modi is 100% right. If the center does not get its act together then the state should rightfully question, why should the people of the state of Gujrat suffer for such a long time, in the name of federalism?

[tejas]

That an Indian politician was capable of such superb strategic analysis 50 years ago is amazing. I have always wondered what India could have become had the Sardar become PM ( as he rightly should have had it not been for "mahatma" Gandhi).

Instead India was cursed with Nehru and his descendents. The resultant economic and strategic disasters that subsequently occurred are there for everyone to see. If we cannot heed the Sardar's advise 50 years later, we deserve to become Chinese lackeys.

[svinayak]

On this issue Modi is 100% right. If the center does not get its act together then the state should rightfully question, why should the people of the state of Gujrat suffer for such a long time, in the name of federalism?

This is when the state politicians will take over the national party and will bring change to the center. This is how the evolution of political economy happens.

[Singha]

I believe there was an element of 'building up' of Nehru by western powers and their
press in contrast to more homegrown and dangerous folks like Patel. gandhiji fell into
that trap also due to his other human failings like a lack of hard headed pragmatism about
the paki issue.

more than Nehru I'd say the continueing millstone of his dynasty is more damaging.
prevents the evolution of the nations oldest party and keeps down men of merit who
would otherwise have risen to the top.

[sanjaychoudhry]

believe there was an element of 'building up' of Nehru by western powers and their
press in contrast to more homegrown and dangerous folks like Patel.

The Goras are still playing the same game by artificially propping up Indian leftists / liberals / seculars through Western awards and fawning press coverage (Arundhati Roy, Pankaj Mishra, etc). They will identify insignificant leftist dwarfs from various corners of India who are busy writing third-rate novels or teaching at some college, and once Goras have groomed them through awards and press interviews, they are projected as intellectual giants of international stature whose views about Indian society and history carry the weight of a prophet's words.

This is how they propped up Nehru too. You have to see the rough treatment Patel recieved at their hands compared to candle-lit dinners for Nehru with the Viceroy to realise the Gora strategy.

Basically, White Christians will do everthing to discredit and prevent the rise of native nationalism in India (denial of visa to Modi, etc). The nationalists can make the country developed and assertive, which the Goras do not want India to be at any cost.

Meanwhile:

PLA's rapid reaction capability in Tibet
http://upiasiaonline.com/Security/2008/ ... ibet/6507/

[varghese]

"Basically, White Christians will do everthing to discredit and prevent the rise of native nationalism in India (denial of visa to Modi, etc). The nationalists can make the country developed and assertive, which the Goras do not want India to be at any cost."

The above betrays a lingering inferiority complex whether the author knows it or not. Other than being a sweeping statement with no evidence at all - I guess the US bending over backwards to give India access to nuclear technology counts as the 'goras' keeping india down in the author's logic ?? - it also overlooks the basic fact that at the end of the day no one can really hold back a nation as large as India for anything other than brief interludes unless it lets it. The real forces holding India back are people like the CPI (agents of China if any - not the 'goras') and I am amazed that India is not responding at the ballot box and consigning them to history. And nor do I see any popular campaigns to educate the people about just how anti-national the communists are.

As for the denial of visa to Modi - I would suggest that has everything to do with the appalling treatment of our Muslim brethren in Gujarat under his administration. Every self respecting and fair minded Indian should be ashamed of what happened. It is tragic that the lessons of history are so quickly forgotten. It was not that long ago another politician demonised and persecuted a minority community in the course of asserting his country's 'greatness'. And where did Hitler lead Germany to with the full democratic support of the majority of his country's people?

If anything it is the lack of civilized rule of law - that does not discriminate on communal/caste or any other grounds and offers equal protection to all - that will do more to hold India back than any external influence.

[Rahul M]

As for the denial of visa to Modi - I would suggest that has everything to do with the appalling treatment of our Muslim brethren in Gujarat under his administration. Every self respecting and fair minded Indian should be ashamed of what happened. It is tragic that the lessons of history are so quickly forgotten. It was not that long ago another politician demonised and persecuted a minority community in the course of asserting his country's 'greatness'. And where did Hitler lead Germany to with the full democratic support of the majority of his country's people?

varghese, the incidents, shameful as they were does not necessarily mean that the man is power is the perpetrator, unless proven otherwise in a court of law.
You seem to be convinced of Modi's guilt, how so ? if proofs against him are so damning, how come the opposition is quiet about it ?
Secondly, even if he was responsible, just WHO are the americans to decide on what we do to our leaders, guilty or not ?
By the same token, we should not provide visas to any US president since US forces under every other POTUS have commited war crimes around the world.
and no australian who have been in power in the 70s should be allowed in for perpetrating genocide against the aboriginies.
Point is, whatever modi has done, it is an internal matter and we must not run to outsiders to settle our domestic issues.

There are some more points, but I would like to hear how sanjaychoudhary answers you.

regards.

[nkumar]

DISCOVER INDIA'S PAST TO FIND ITS FUTURE

S. Gurumurthy

Modern Indians, including Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru who argued the case for a modern India with Mahatma Gandhi, could neither own nor reject India’s past. Nehru bluntly told Mahatma Gandhi once that he did not consider Ram Rajya of the past, revered by the Mahatma, as the ideal road map for India’s polity, nor did he want it back. But with most Indians refusing to snap their links with the past, many modernists, silently — and some, even openly — had written off India as a lost cause, almost agreeing with the likes of Max Weber who asserted that Hindus and Buddhists who believed in karma and rebirth could not develop in a modern world. But it is now evident that India, once written off, has more than just survived, with loyalty to its past reasonably intact. Today it is perceived as a rising global power. If India could handle the future without disowning its past, is it not time that Indians also debated whether it was their past that is wrong, or their adjudication about it?

Begin from the run-up to India’s freedom. Winston Churchill predicted that free India would slip into anarchy; he even counselled the British “to leave India to God; and, if that is too much, leave her to anarchy”. But India did not oblige Churchill. Instead, within a couple of years, it formulated a Constitution based on the rule of law on which the British had based their right to civilise, even rule, others. India unfailingly conducted elections, installed elected governments. More. When Indira Gandhi attempted to undo this, the Indian villagers, whom the West and the Westernised in India — like Nehru did in his letter to Mahatma Gandhi way back in 1928 — despised as illiterate and uncivilised, handed an unforgettable defeat to her and restored democracy.

Some two decades after Churchill, another accomplished Westerner, but from the United States, J.K. Galbraith, confirmed India as an “anarchy”, but a “functioning” one. Galbraith, US Ambassador to India, was an admirer of Nehru, who proudly confided to Galbraith that he, Nehru, would be the last English Prime Minister of India! (Nehruji should be happy in heavens that he was wrong!) Many in the West believed that “anarchic” India would function only till Nehru was around. A leading American journalist, Welles Hangen, even wrote a book titled After Nehru, Who? (Err..India is despite Nehru, not because of Nehru) which concealed the implied question, what after Nehru — anarchy? But India has, by now, seen after an inevitable Nehru, two more inevitables from the Nehru stable, and many non-Nehrus, as Prime Ministers. It has proved that it could do business with even a Deve Gowda, a farmer, or Inder Gujral, a refugee from Pakistan, or Manmohan Singh, a World Bank pensioner, as Prime Ministers. Far from one Nehru or one party in charge, coalitions of two dozen parties have been running governments successively for full terms, something which an Italy, which is some 2% of India, could not do; and Japan — less than a tenth of India — did not; which is something unthinkable for a Britain, that is about 5% of India; and is something that might even break the United States.

Free India has handled a Constitution that is based on an Anglo-Saxon worldview, with marginal indigenous input. The Indian Constitution instituted parliamentary democracy, but Indian polity has formalised dynasty; it preaches secularism, but our politics patronises communal vote banks; it celebrates socialism, but our economy functions on free market; it proscribes caste-oriented discrimination, but our polity prescribes caste-based differentiation; it is centred on individuals, but our politics is built around crowds; it makes Hindi the link language, but India is branded as the world’s second largest English-speaking nation. What does this mean? Indian civilisation seems to possess unbelievable flexibility to handle these seemingly irreconcilable contradictions. Destiny has given India a durability which it seems to have denied to its cousins in the West and Middle West. There is no Greek or Roman or Egyptian or Babylonian or Arab or Persian civilisation today. Spiders weave a web where Caesars ruled, said Swami Vivekananda. Yet, more than a century ago, he foresaw India’s rise, when no one suspected it would ever happen.

India is now seen, even by those who had earlier written its obituary, as a rising geopolitical, economic power. Responsible analysts assert that three decades from now, India is likely to rank on par with the US as the second largest economy in the world; and as one of the top three world powers — the other two being US and China — reducing Germany, England, France, Japan and Russia to just regional status. Is this the rise of a backward nation?

British historian William Dalrymple sees rising India as merely claiming back its original status as a leading global power. Pre-colonial India was the leading economic powerhouse of the world. But, led by the colonial view that India had no proud past, distant or recent, free India’s leadership worked, unsuccessfully, to bury the past which it found difficult to handle. Worse, it trivialised its past by labelling the slow progress of the nation under a socialist regime as the “Hindu rate of growth”, implying that India’s past was holding down its growth rate. But the truth is the other way round. If the label Hindu rate of growth is acceptable in economics, it has to be equally conceded that it had made India the leading economic power for 17 centuries. A study of global economic history by Angus Maddison, adviser to OECD, has confirmed that from the dawn of the Common Era, till 1700 India was the global economic leader. Maddison’s study says that, in 1725, China overtook India, but India was the next, with France and Britain much lower down. This order continued till 1800. Later, the deepening colonial exploitation pushed India to the third position, and slowly, with the rise of the US and other countries in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, India was pushed into backwardness. It was colonialism, as Dadabhai Nowrojee substantiated first and as Will Durant eloquently articulated later in his paper, “The Case for India”, that ruined India.

It is not over yet. The education system that free India adopted from colonialists kept these facts away from young Indians and instead addicted them to self-flagellation and negativism, making many of them feel shy, rather than proud, of their past. Result? Most Indians, finance minister P. Chidambaram included, are unaware that India was the global economic topper till the 18th century and that it lost that position only due to colonial assault. Recently the finance minister even chided those who maintained that India that was once prosperous was ruined by colonialism. Free India’s leaders had blamed its underdevelopment on its past, trusting Western sociologists like Max Weber who certified in the 1920s that India was unfit for socio-economic development on modern lines as it believed in caste, karma and rebirth. But today in many American universities, says the International Business Week, capitalism aligned to the philosophy of karma is being taught as the way out of the current corporate capitalist mess.

Back in India, a Harish Damodaran from the Marxist stable, being the grandson of E.M.S. Namboodiripad, and others write books on how different castes — not just Vaishyas or other Savarnas, but also OBCs and even Dalits — have risen up on the development ladder. And thanks to their entry, business has generated a mass entrepreneurial movement in India. The Global Entrepreneur Monitor Study [2002] identifies that 18% of the Indian people in the age group of 16 to 64 are entrepreneurs, while in China it is 12% and in the US it is 10%. That is why the growth story of India, with foreign investment less than 2% of its total investment, is regarded as entrepreneur-driven, while China’s is seen as largely foreign investment-driven.

Finally, India has only 12,404 police stations, as per Indian home ministry’s statistics for December 2004, to supervise thousands of towns and lakhs of villages, and yet it has the lowest crime rate, according to UNDP. Evidence is mounting against those who blamed India’s past to escape all blame for the present.

William Dalrymple is right when he says that for India it is back to prosperity, not backwardness to prosperity. Hence the question: Is its past that is to blame for India’s underperformance for half a century after freedom, or was that just an alibi for a leadership that did not perform?

One minor nit-pick, William Dalrymple doesn't see India's past beyond the Mughal era, not sure if his arguments should be used to build a case for India's past.

[JE Menon]

It is rare to see such a whining, self-pitying, untruthful article as the one above. Let's wait for the next American or Brit to write what a great country India is. Maybe this fellow will be happy then....

Its ok to push a point of view, but the writer have some pride along with his prejudice. Only one of the deliberate attempts at misleading need to be exposed to show the shallowness of the write up.