Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

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Gerard
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Gerard »

Latest fatwa from Grand Ayatollah Sokolski...

Negotiating India's Next Nuclear Explosion
By HENRY SOKOLSKI
WALL STREET JOURNAL ASIA

posted in full since these links revert to subscription after a few days
One of the most notable events of the G-8 meeting in Tokyo this week had little to do with economic growth. In a conversation yesterday, U.S. President George Bush and Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh discussed a civilian nuclear deal that has been in the works for nearly three years. The pact, known as the 123 Agreement under U.S. law, would allow American firms to invest and trade in civil nuclear technologies with India -- a significant event if it occurs, given that India hasn't signed the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT) and has not allowed full inspections of its nuclear plants.

With only months left before Congress breaks for the U.S. Presidential elections, the time needed to finalize the deal this year may be running out. In addition to securing International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) approvals, U.S. law requires Congress to pass a joint resolution of approval.

All of this is causing the deal's backers to wring their hands, despite yesterday's sideline chat. If the 123 Agreement is not approved on Mr. Singh's and Mr. Bush's watch, it could encounter additional difficulties next year. The leadership of the Indian political party most likely to succeed Mr. Singh's Congress-led coalition, the Bharatiya Janata Party, has already announced that it wouldn't "mind another [nuclear] blast if it is necessitated." Meanwhile, John McCain and Barack Obama have pledged to ratify or amend the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty.

Not much of this is mentioned when the deal is being sold in Washington. Within the Beltway, the deal is the business opportunity of the century, one that will strengthen global nonproliferation efforts and bring India into the international nonproliferation fold. Enabling legislation, known as the Hyde Act, requires that all U.S. nuclear assistance be suspended if India resumes testing, that the U.S. do nothing to violate its own pledges under the NPT, and that India place all of its civilian reactors under IAEA nuclear inspections in perpetuity. When questioned earlier this year House Foreign Affairs Committee chairman Howard Berman, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice confirmed that the deal is and must be "completely consistent with the Hyde Act."

All of this sounds pretty good. There's only one problem: To garner the political support necessary to proceed with the deal, Mr. Singh and his supporters have been making a pitch back home that's the polar opposite of Washington's story board. Thus just last week, to gain the support of the Samajwadi Party (an Indian political group previously opposed the deal), the prime minister's office announced that "the 123 Agreement clearly overrides the Hyde Act" and that, as such, "there is nothing in the agreement which places an embargo on India's right to carry out a nuclear test if it thinks this is necessary in India's supreme national interest."

In the next few weeks, India is also expected to submit a safeguards agreement before the IAEA Board of Governors in Vienna. India will make a unilateral statement aimed at reserving its right to expel IAEA inspectors from reactor sites if the U.S., or other fuel suppliers, suspend nuclear fuel shipments for any reason -- including Indian resumption of testing. Indian officials are also likely to plead for nuclear fuel supply guarantees so the country can stockpile uranium fuel against future nuclear fuel supplier cutoffs that might occur -- again, following a future nuclear test. If, as expected, no IAEA board member or NSG country objects to these Indian statements, India will construe the silence as assent.

The U.S. State Department is quite aware of these views. It's a key reason why late last year, State pleaded with the House Committee on Foreign Affairs not to release the Department's unclassified answers to whether or not the Executive believed the deal required the U.S. to cut off nuclear supplies to India if it tests; if the Department thought India could stockpile U.S. nuclear fuel to reduce U.S. influence on Indian nuclear testing policies; and precisely what kind of safeguards India must agree to. Oddly, the Committee agreed to keep State's answers under wraps. This suggests American diplomats want India to think it can test with impunity while it is telling Congress India can't.

But there's more: Earlier this year, Indian Foreign Minister Pranab Mukherjee suggested India "delink" finalizing the U.S. nuclear deal from getting the IAEA and the NSG approvals. His idea was to get the U.S. to convince the IAEA and NSG to allow India to do business with any nuclear supplier state. This would then allow India to import Russian and French nuclear goods, instead of American goods which would be laden with troublesome nonproliferation conditions.

His pitch was more than hype. The U.S. actually has been twisting arms at the NSG, threatening to leave and so dissolve the group if countries critical of the India deal did not fall into line on India. Also, as a practical matter, U.S. reactor sales to India won't happen even if New Delhi refuses to buy Russian or French. Why? No private U.S. nuclear firm would risk doing business with India until it establishes a sufficient amount of Indian nuclear damage liability coverage. Given India's horrific experience with the American-built Union Carbine chemical-plant accident at Bhopal, when this will occur is anybody's guess.
* * *

All of which raises the question, if this "peaceful" nuclear deal isn't to pump up U.S. reactor sales, just what is it about? One could argue that India could use more foreign uranium. It's recently run so low on domestic fuel that it's had to reduce the power production level of its civilian reactors significantly. It also needs foreign uranium because its own uranium production has remained relatively flat, while its civilian and military requirements have risen.

This is where the trouble begins. It turns out that fueling India's civilian reactors with foreign fuel is not all that peaceful. As K. Subrahmanyam, former head of India's National Security Advisory board noted, "Given India's uranium ore crunch . . . it is to India's advantage to categorize as many power reactors as possible as civilian ones to be refueled by imported uranium and conserve our native uranium fuel for weapons grade plutonium production."

India, however, doesn't need more weapons to keep up with Pakistan; it needs more and better ones to match China. That's why India has been developing intercontinental range ballistic missiles -- weapons that could use more, smaller, lighter, efficient advanced thermonuclear warheads. This, in turn, is why India's hawks are so interested in resuming nuclear testing. That Pakistan is committed to matching India's nuclear progress, is perhaps why New Delhi has yet to ramp up. But once New Delhi has all the uranium it needs for both its civilian and military program, it will surely revisit this.

Unfortunately, glossing over these points is the most the Americans and the Indians now seem willing do. This may be diplomatically clever but strategically, it's spring loaded to produce misunderstanding and tragedy. The U.S. certainly should not finalize the deal until either India agrees it should stop upgrading its arsenal significantly or we clearly decide that we no longer care if it does. For the record, right now just the opposite applies.

Mr. Sokolski is the executive director of the Nonproliferation Policy Education Center, a nonprofit research organization in Washington, D.C., and editor of "Falling Behind: International Scrutiny of the Peaceful Atom" (Strategic Studies Institute, 2008).
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by doordarshi »

Meanwhile, the other kind of Ayatollahs condemn the Betrayal:
Edit: The Pioneer/ July 11, 2008

Deceitful deed -- PM has betrayed the nation's trust

The sense of outrage following the UPA Government's deceitful action of circulating the text of the safeguards agreement among the members of the Board of Governors of the International Atomic Energy Agency without seeking and securing a trust vote in Parliament is not limited to the Opposition alone. The entire nation is stunned that the regime of the day should have resorted to such trickery to push through the contentious India-US civilian nuclear cooperation agreement. If the Prime Minister has behaved in a sly manner that does not do justice to the high office he holds, the Government is equally guilty of misleading the people and thus betraying the nation's trust. What is particularly appalling is that although the text was initialled by Indian officials many days — if not weeks — ago, the Prime Minister and his aides purposefully kept the country in the dark. That the text should have been circulated among the IAEA's Governors shortly after the Prime Minister's meeting with US President George W Bush on the sidelines of the G8 summit in Japan adds a sinister twist to the entire episode: It would be perfectly in order to ask whether this Government's decisions and actions are prompted by instructions from elsewhere. Let us not forget that after the Left withdrew its support to the UPA Government, External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee had categorically declared that the Government would approach the IAEA only after seeking a trust vote. To remove any doubts about the Government's intentions, he insisted that this assurance was being given after consulting the Prime Minister who was then abroad. The Prime Minister made a similar commitment by promising to follow parliamentary norms and mocking at the Leader of the Opposition LK Advani for demanding that Parliament be immediately summoned for the Government to prove its majority. "I do not need Mr Advani's advice," the Prime Minister had snidely added. At the end of the day, he stands exposed as someone whose sense of ethics is extremely elastic. Such a man is not deserving of the nation's trust; he has surreptitiously forced on the people a nuclear deal that compromises India's strategic interests and belittles its sovereignty.

Through word and deed the Prime Minister has demonstrated that he is not only desperate to operationalise the nuclear deal before he demits office but also to do bring it in through the backdoor. The Opposition is right in asking: What is the Government trying to hide? And, is there a conspiracy afoot? The Prime Minister is welcome to offer explanations or retreat into high dudgeon, pretending hurt and offence at such suggestions which neither flatter him nor pander to his exaggerated sense of probity. But he will fail to convince the people. He has thrown propriety to the winds and shown that he is no 'accidental' politician but a cynical manipulator who can go to any extent to have his way — not on issues of crucial importance to the nation at this point of time but an agreement that increasingly looks like a private treaty with interests that remain grey and opaque. India cannot, must not, accept its long-term and strategic interests to be compromised by a feckless though craftily cunning Prime Minister who heads a Government which has lost its majority and who will be reduced to no more than a footnote of history after the next general election.
Rangudu should hang his head in shame, betraying India like this! 8)

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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by CRamS »

Gerard wrote:Latest fatwa from Grand Ayatollah Sokolski...

Negotiating India's Next Nuclear Explosion
By HENRY SOKOLSKI
WALL STREET JOURNAL ASIA

India, however, doesn't need more weapons to keep up with Pakistan; it needs more and better ones to match China. That's why India has been developing intercontinental range ballistic missiles -- weapons that could use more, smaller, lighter, efficient advanced thermonuclear warheads. This, in turn, is why India's hawks are so interested in resuming nuclear testing. That Pakistan is committed to matching India's nuclear progress, is perhaps why New Delhi has yet to ramp up. But once New Delhi has all the uranium it needs for both its civilian and military program, it will surely revisit this.
Once again equal equal trash from NPAs and others and confirms their colonial/racist disposition. Why should TSP, a terrorist, rouge nuke-proliferating abomination even be in the equation? It further confirms to me that there will be a kind of equal equal 123 for TSP to keep up this balance.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Suppiah »

Did Advani read what I posted yesterday? :oops:

Excerpt from his interview on today's Chindu
Asked how the BJP would go about “renegotiating” a done deal if it came to power, the opposition party’s top leader indicated that the track would be exploring the option of “having our own law, which insulates us from the consequences of the Hyde Act.”
http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/11/stories ... 160100.htm
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by paramu »

All of this is causing the deal's backers to wring their hands, despite yesterday's sideline chat. If the 123 Agreement is not approved on Mr. Singh's and Mr. Bush's watch, it could encounter additional difficulties next year. The leadership of the Indian political party most likely to succeed Mr. Singh's Congress-led coalition, the Bharatiya Janata Party, has already announced that it wouldn't "mind another [nuclear] blast if it is necessitated."
Thus just last week, to gain the support of the Samajwadi Party (an Indian political group previously opposed the deal), the prime minister's office announced that "the 123 Agreement clearly overrides the Hyde Act"
They have been given this kind of analysis to speed up the deal. Was the deal supposed to be bipartisan on both side.
The deal is not just the deal but there is something else. Some people want to close the option of testing and probably close the rise of BJP.

WSJ had never even mentioned Samajwadi Party in its edition ever before and now they are interested. SP gives the reason of 'BJP more dangerous than Bush ' for supporting the deal.

The U.S. State Department is quite aware of these views. It's a key reason why late last year, State pleaded with the House Committee on Foreign Affairs not to release the Department's unclassified answers to whether or not the Executive believed the deal required the U.S. to cut off nuclear supplies to India if it tests; if the Department thought India could stockpile U.S. nuclear fuel to reduce U.S. influence on Indian nuclear testing policies; and precisely what kind of safeguards India must agree to. Oddly, the Committee agreed to keep State's answers under wraps. This suggests American diplomats want India to think it can test with impunity while it is telling Congress India can't.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by NRao »

HENRY SOKOLSKI
But once New Delhi has all the uranium it needs for both its civilian and military program, it will surely revisit this.
And I always thought it was only Indians (from India please) that could read minds!!
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by sanjaykumar »

The Bush administration is privately threatening to leave the Nuclear Suppliers Group if it does not expeditiously approve the Indo-US nuclear deal by allowing member countries to engage in nuclear commerce with Delhi, a highly respected American arms control expert has alleged

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA Is Rud's face ruddy yet.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by shiv »

doordarshi wrote:
The name doordarshi is not acceptable as per forum guidelines. I will change it to something else. Please ask is you want a different one after that.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by enqyoob »

Interesting, shiv. Wonder where "Satya_Anveshi" is... Maybe you can rename Door-Darshi "Jhoot-Khoji" to complement "satya-anveshi"? :mrgreen:
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by paramu »

* July 18, 2005: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh [Images] and US President George W Bush [Images] agree on a nuclear deal in Washington.
* March 2, 2006: India and the US sign the nuclear agreement during Bush's visit to New Delhi.
* March 11, 2006: Communist Party of India attacks government during a special discussion in Lok Sabha terming the accord as an 'unequal' treaty and one which would take India to the 'stable of US global strategy of containing China and Russia' [Images].
* July 28, 2006: The Left parties demand threadbare discussion on the issue in Parliament followed by a statement by either the Speaker or Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.
* November 16, 2006: US Senate passes the Indo-US nuclear deal.
* August 3, 2007: India, US unveil the 123 Agreement.
* August 13, 2007: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh makes a suo motu statement on the deal in Parliament
* August 17, 2007: Communist Party of India-Marxist general secretary Prakash Karat says that the 'honeymoon (with government) may be over but the marriage can go on'.
* September 4, 2008: UPA-Left committee to discuss nuclear deal set up.
* February 25, 2008: Left parties say the UPA would have to choose between the deal and its government's stability.
* March 3, 2008: Left parties warn of 'serious consequences' if the civilian nuclear deal with the US is operationalised.
* March 6, 2008 Left parties set a deadline asking the government to make it clear by March 15 whether it intended to proceed with the nuclear deal or drop it.
* March 7, 2008: CPI writes to the prime minister, warns of withdrawal of support if government goes ahead with the Indo-US nuclear deal.
* March 8, 2008: The CPI-M says the government should drop the nuclear deal if the UPA-Left Committee does not approve it.
* March 14, 2008: CPI-M says the Left parties will not be responsible if the government falls over the nuclear deal.
* April 23, 2008: Government says it will seek the sense of the House on the 123 Agreement before it is taken up for ratification by the American Congress.
* June 17, 2008: Pranab Mukherjee meets Prakash Karat, asks the Left to allow the government to go ahead with IAEA safeguards agreement.
* June 30, 2008: Prime Minister says his government prepare to face Parliament before operationalising the deal.
* July 3, 2008: The Left parties decide to work out the timing and modalities of the pullout.
*

July 8, 2008: Left parties withdraw support to government.
Raju

Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Raju »

narayanan wrote:Interesting, shiv. Wonder where "Satya_Anveshi" is... Maybe you can rename Door-Darshi "Jhoot-Khoji" to complement "satya-anveshi"? :mrgreen:
there used to be an i.d. named "Jwalamukhi" and still is.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by pradeepe »

Suppiah wrote:Did Advani read what I posted yesterday? :oops:

Excerpt from his interview on today's Chindu
Asked how the BJP would go about “renegotiating” a done deal if it came to power, the opposition party’s top leader indicated that the track would be exploring the option of “having our own law, which insulates us from the consequences of the Hyde Act.”
http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/11/stories ... 160100.htm
And there you go. As noted earlier. ONe way to read it is that the opposition party is our Jekyll. At the risk of showing their hand and invoking a counter, all that they let out is that they have a hand to play. Card to be face down for now onlee, thank you :P

Btw, no credit to Mr. Kapil Sibal. This is the way it played out.
Raju

Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Raju »

ok so putting things in their gist as it stands:

the safeguards agreement is a 'materials based safeguard', rather than a 'facility based safeguard'.

Which means that if the current IAEA draft passes unmolested through the body then even facilities that are safeguarded will be obliged to adhere to the safeguards protocol if the Uranium and raw material passing through them is 'imported'.

If the raw material passing through these 'safeguarded facilities' is indigenous then the safeguards agreeement shall not apply even on 'safeguarded facilities'. This is a result of rescinding of the clause of 'verification in perpetuity' that has been left out of the IAEA draft. As soon as the 'imported maal' stops the facility and reactors are automatically excluded from any inspections. It is certain that certain proxies will be provoked into opposing this, if not at IAEA, (which works on a majority votes basis) but surely at NSG which works on unanimous vote.

The road ahead is not going to be easy. This is just the beginning and it is way too early to celebrate, even the July 18 which came in a similar way was celebrated by the Indian media as *India having got it's way at IAEA*. From thereon it was all downhill skiing with proxy NPA waging war and shrieks from Cong which then facilitated Hide.
Last edited by Raju on 11 Jul 2008 08:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Satya_anveshi »

narayanan wrote:Interesting, shiv. Wonder where "Satya_Anveshi" is... Maybe you can rename Door-Darshi "Jhoot-Khoji" to complement "satya-anveshi"? :mrgreen:
Huh!!! What's going on here, man! This no name nobody didn't bother anybody. Been busy at work and catching up with news and BR (in bits). BTW: I have only this id. The name is inspired from Mr. Yogi aka YI Patel but do note the literal meaning also.
Last edited by Satya_anveshi on 11 Jul 2008 08:52, edited 1 time in total.
Raju

Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Raju »

Satya_anveshi wrote:Huh!!! What's going on here, man! This no name nobody didn't bother anybody.
It happens boss. :lol:
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by pradeepe »

Raju wrote:The road ahead is not going to be easy. This is just the beginning and it is way too early to celebrate, even the July 18 which came in a similar way was celebrated by the Indian media as *India having got it's way at IAEA*. From thereon it was all downhill skiing with proxy NPA waging war and shrieks from Cong which then facilitated Hide.
True Raju sar. But then credit where its due. For long the chant here was that the IAEA draft duly crafted by AK and co. had written away everything and we might all just head to the himalayas and become sanyasis. So while we gird our loins for the battle to come, maybe a thank you to the ones who have held the fort so far, no?
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Karan Dixit »

NEW DELHI (Reuters) - India's president will meet Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Thursday, with a confidence vote expected to be the main topic after the government's allies on the left withdrew support to protest against a nuclear deal with the United States.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080710/wl_ ... itics_dc_1
Raju

Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Raju »

>>> But then credit where its due. For long the chant here was that the IAEA draft duly crafted by AK and co. had written away everything and we might all just head to the himalayas and become sanyasis. So while we gird our loins for the battle to come, maybe a thank you to the ones who have held the fort so far, no?

AK & crowd have to be complemented for their drafting skills. Proof of pudding is in it's eating and we have not eaten anything yet.

Commie & Cong synchronized tabla was caught when draft was leaked in US. They almost took everyone for a ride. But American's wanting to prick Leftie baloons ensured that the game was up.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Karan Dixit »

“At 23 pages, the safeguards agreement is a testament to the good standing of India with the IAEA. China’s agreement is over 50 pages. The US’s runs over 100,” says Srivastava.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... clear+lane

(Smaller the number of pages, better the deal. :) Aha!)
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by pradeepe »

AK & crowd have to be complemented for their drafting skills.
And more so when facing tomahawks and spears from BOTH sides of the ramparts.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Ananth »

doordarshi wrote:Rangudu should hang his head in shame, betraying India like this!
Why should he? Is Rangudu responsible for GoI's action?

Arre bhai, even if GoI circulated the draft that doesn't mean UPA is trying to bypass trust vote. Vote of confidence can happen before IAEA board meeting on 28th. UPA is going to sail through even if that happens. It is in BJP's interest that trust vote doesn't happen and atleast IAEA aggreement is finalized. BJP's silence is its weakness.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by sugriva »

Karan Dixit wrote:“At 23 pages, the safeguards agreement is a testament to the good standing of India with the IAEA. China’s agreement is over 50 pages. The US’s runs over 100,” says Srivastava.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... clear+lane

(Smaller the number of pages, better the deal. :) Aha!)
That is not an apples to apples comparision. Both China and US are part of P5. What we should
look at are what are the agreements between IAEA and countries like Japan, Germany, Brazil .
We should then compare how different or similar our agreements are with the above countries
and US, China. The only implication that can be drawn for the agreements with US and China
being longer are that they explicitly take care of the NWS nature of these countries.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Satya_anveshi »

Only tantentially related to this thread:

In this whole deal thing, Congress displayed amazing level of domestic political cunning. I maintained in my previous posts that the seeming rift between Left and Cong is less about actors. BJP has been left without any allies in the North. Maya was part of UPA and so can't overtly support BJP in the coming elections. Left and BJP can't see eye-to-eye; this will continue into the future. Advani has been making calls to Mulayam for a long time invoking the name of Ram Manohar Lohia but see what Cong did: at the fag end of the term, it made alliance with SP (Thanks to Uncle ji) sealing the fate of any possible BJPs alliance in the North.
If only such cunning was displayed in its international dealings, one wouldn't have had this deal so complicated. But then it would be dealing with Uncles and Aunties, who are the very source of power behind the cunning so there lies the problem.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by John Snow »

I am not that dishartened because I trust the janata for its attention deficit disorder.
The elction is not going to be fought only on Nuke deal. In way the best thing that happened is that the treason committed by Left is there for all to see.

Left Out is good.

also all politics is local, said Speaker Tip O'neal

"Janata will think global vote local" Spinster
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Satya_anveshi »

LK Advani saying that BJP will use domestic law to counter Hyde and use that as leverage in renogiatiate is saying zilch. 123 agreement is subject to all current and future laws of countries party to it. US has used its hand (Hyde), we can use it at any time provided there is national consensus, which I doubt will be there even when the need arises. The only time in my memory where something like that happened is during PVN, the man whose first words every morning were "What's cooking?" asking chefs what is on his plate for the day, when the parliament passed a bill (in 1992?) claiming the whole of J&K to be integral part. One wonders if it really helped us or was it needed at that time.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Philip »

Sold out by "snake-oil Singh"?

http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.as ... ai&Topic=0

Once in, there’s no way out

Friday July 11 2008 08:47 IST
V Sudarshan

CHENNAI: What was it in the text of the India-specific safeguards that the Government wanted to hide?

Scientists who went through the document say that their worst fears regarding the safeguards agreement have come true. While there is a recognition, the first time by the UN body, that India is a country that has nuclear weapons, some of the key promises made by the PM in Parliament are notable only by their stark absence.

“It has been kept confidential because it does not give anything that has been promised by the PM,” said A Gopalakrishnan, a former chairman of the Atomic Energy Regulatory Board, adding, “It is again akin to pulling wool over our eyes.”

A N Prasad, a former director of BARC, says that the context in which the Indo-US nuclear deal is taking place, with references to “uninterrupted fuel supplies” and “corrective measures” if they don’t materialse are only part of the preambular references, and not part of the operative portion of the agreement and are, therefore, meaningless in reality.

A source explained a preamble as follows: “A preamble is only an expression of pious wishes, hopes and aspirations. When it comes to legal nitty gritty, it is the operative part of the agreement that counts.”

In the operative part, points out Prasad, “There is no exit clause. It is safeguards in perpetuity for us.” It guards against withdrawal “at any time.” In other words India can never walk away. Prasad also points out that the “corrective measures” seem limited to going from one source of fuel to another. Prasad also points out that this is absurd since the Nuclear Suppliers Group functions as a cartel: all for one and one for all.

P K Iyengar, a former chairman of the AEC, says the draft does nothing to circumvent the original problem: how do you repeal the Hyde Act and remove the restrictions on the deal there? He adds: “Even if the 123 gets nullified and abrogated, there is no escape from the perpetual safeguards of the IAEA unless the IAEA itself gets abrogated.”

Adds Prasad ominously: “The more intrusive things will come when the additional protocol comes, for which not even a framework is ready or evident.”

It appears the additional protocol was left un-negotatied for fear there would be an even bigger blowback given the explosive political climate.

PS:What are the parameters of this "additional protocl"? There is more hidden below water in this "iceberg" of an N-deal.
Raju

Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Raju »

>>> if they don’t materialse are only part of the preambular references, and not part of the operative portion of the agreement and are, therefore, meaningless in reality

According to Siddhart Varadarajan, preamble in international agreements is a serious affair and is formed after a lot of deliberation and debate. And there is a sanctity about the preamble which should not be brushed away. Atleast in IAEA the sanctity of the preamble will be maintained was what he felt. Though all bets are off at NSG.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by amit »

Philip wrote:Sold out by "snake-oil Singh"?

http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.as ... ai&Topic=0

Once in, there’s no way out

Friday July 11 2008 08:47 IST
V Sudarshan
I must say these three eminent scientists are staging a valiant reguard action, appearing all over the media over the past few days.
“It has been kept confidential because it does not give anything that has been promised by the PM,” said A Gopalakrishnan, a former chairman of the Atomic Energy Regulatory Board, adding, “It is again akin to pulling wool over our eyes.
Maybe its just me but this looks more like a statement a politican would make, rather than an eminent scientist.
A source explained a preamble as follows: “A preamble is only an expression of pious wishes, hopes and aspirations. When it comes to legal nitty gritty, it is the operative part of the agreement that counts.”
The age old Indian (journalistic) rope trick. Pull out a "source" when you want to write something with plausible deniablity. :D (Please note Indian laws, unlike laws in many countries allows Journalists to hide behind source confidentiality).
P K Iyengar, a former chairman of the AEC, says the draft does nothing to circumvent the original problem: how do you repeal the Hyde Act and remove the restrictions on the deal there? He adds: “Even if the 123 gets nullified and abrogated, there is no escape from the perpetual safeguards of the IAEA unless the IAEA itself gets abrogated.”
I would be grateful if someone could kindly take the time to explain to me how you could repeal the Hyde Act when discussing the safeguards protocol with IAEA? And how does the Hyde Act come to play, if India gets a clean waiver from NSG and does business with say the Russians on the basis of the IAEA protocol? :-?

PS: I know NSG could be a stumbling block regarding this, but one step at a time right?
Adds Prasad ominously: “The more intrusive things will come when the additional protocol comes, for which not even a framework is ready or evident.”
If I did not know better, I would have thought this is fear mongering at its very best.
It appears the additional protocol was left un-negotatied for fear there would be an even bigger blowback given the explosive political climate.
So India did not negotiate the additional protocol because of "even bigger blowback" given the explosive political climate? I wonder what that means? :eek:
PS:What are the parameters of this "additional protocl"? There is more hidden below water in this "iceberg" of an N-deal.
Now this one is the mystery of the day. The additional protocol "was left un-negotiated" yet we all know that "there is more hidden bleow" the water in this iceberg which will sink the Indian N-programme.

I'm trying to visualise how this works!
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by enqyoob »

Satya-anveshi: No offence intended. I couldn't resist the temptation to point out that so exemplary a Brfizen as yourself has a username that describes purpose more than mere identity, and suggested a related version for the new postor who seems to have "attracted Teacher's Attention" in an impressively short time. I've also seen a couple of DD's posts disappear from the LCA thread without a trace, like the Kendo Sistahs from the Lal Masjid or the Pakistan Army from Kargil :eek:

I wonder how long is Rwanda's IAEA agreement. :?: As for the US' and China's agreements, it would be very interesting to post and compare both of those. The former as the first to do Atim Bum, so that may have described everything like what is the IAEA and the type of champagne to order for the conference room in Geneva, and the latter as the last of the P-5, with their 7-year-delayed 123 dance with the US, and the very interesting problem of IAEA trying to police what goes on there. Rangudu, any chance? I bet the NPA wonks won't do this comparison, but we may want to, in the very short term.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by sanjaychoudhry »

Translated from Dainik Jagaran:
All Apprehensions have been Proved Right, PM’s Assurances were Deceptive
By Arun Shourie

This is nothing but a brazen betrayal. A complete going back on one’s promise. It was only two or three days ago that Indian foreign minister Pranab Mukherjee had told us that he has spoken to prime minister Manmohan Singh. The government is going to observe all parliamentary niceties and uphold its traditions. The government will approach International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) only after it has passed the majority test in the Parliament.

But now we find that the government has already given a draft of the agreement to the IAEA. Neither did UPA government show it to the people of India, nor to the opposition. Even those upon whose crutches the government has been limping along till now never got to see a glimpse of the draft.

Information about the draft, when finally released, got released in America, not in India! This is nothing but betrayal of the people of India. A minority government simply has no right to proceed on its own on such an important international agreement.

Now the draft that has come before us has proved that all our apprehensions and doubts were correct. Whatever assurances that the Prime Minister had given to the country and the parliament were nothing but a bluff. I have said it before that this agreement is nothing more than a way to impose upon India the terms and conditions that are meant for non-nuclear states of the world.

The terms given in IAEA’s information circular 66 which are meant to be applicable to non-nuclear powers of the world are being imposed upon India through this agreement – even the wording of both is exactly the same with absolutely no changes! The prime minister used to tell us that there will be an “India-specific special agreement” with the IAEA. But here we can see nothing special at all. American secretary of state Condoleza Rice had told the American Congress that she wants to bind India under Circular 66 of the IAEA. This is exactly what is happening.

It is quite distressing the way a huge and nuclear-capable country such as India is being treated at the international stage. There are five recognized nuclear powers in the world. They operate about 500 nuclear reactors. Only five of these are under the supervision of the IAEA. In contrast, India has agreed to put 14 of its 22 reactors under IAEA safe guards! Not only this, American president George Bush is on record saying that the Manmohan Singh government has assured him that 90 percent of Indian nuclear reactors will be brought under the IAEA supervision in the near future.

Our hands are being tied forever through this agreement. Our reactors have an enrichment capacity of over 60 kilograms. In this scenario, IAEA inspectors can visit them anytime and as many times as they want in a year to inspect them.

It is very worrisome that under the draft of the agreement, not only 14 civil reactors but also 35 Indian institutions engaged in nuclear research and development have come under the IAEA supervision. It says in clause 117 of the draft that not only the nuclear reactors but every institution that receives nuclear fuel will also come under the ambit of the IAEA inspectors.

According to the interpretation of clause 127, this includes all institutions engaged in R&D in the area of nuclear technology. If our institutions are doing research to develop or further improve nuclear weapons, then too the IAEA inspectors will have a right to visit them any time for inspections.

The Hyde Act related to nuclear agreement with the US clearly says that the end objective of this deal is to first roll back and then totally kill India’s nuclear capability.

It is being said that if India wants, it can walk out of the agreement anytime. According to the conditions of the agreement, if Indian tests a nuclear bomb or rescinds the agreement, America and other countries of the nuclear suppliers group will have the right to take back from India everything they have given to us such as nuclear reactors, components and fuel.

Anil Kakodkar, the head of our nuclear energy commission, had told me that he will never give his nod to the agreement if it does not permit India to maintain a strategic fuel reserve. But in the 123 agreement signed with the US, presidential candidate Barak Obama moved a clause that took away precisely this right from India.

We are to be allowed only as much nuclear fuel as is required to run the reactors and no more. It is easy to understand what kind of a trap has been laid out for us. Not only this, we will be promised the limited nuclear fuel to run our reactors only after we have signed on the dotted line of the agreement.

It is argued that even China has done a similar agreement with the US. However, there is a difference. In the agreement with China, it is clearly written that no national law of the two countries can make any changes or modifications to the 123 Act. This is not the case with the agreement that is being signed by India. That is why the Hyde Act becomes very important for us.

The agreement states that if the supply of nuclear fuel to India is interrupted for any reason, India will have the right to take alternative measures. This is precisely what we want to ask the government. What will India do in a situation where the supply of nuclear fuel is blocked for any reason after we have signed the agreement?
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by NRao »

It looks like this IAEA agreement is just another 123 - where both sides put in words that they can interpret as they like.

Like I said way back ..... India better have a leader that has a solid backbone in 2050.

BTW, "Additional Protocol" apprears twice - all in teh first two pages!!!!
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Satya_anveshi »

narayanan wrote:I couldn't resist the temptation to point out that so exemplary a Brfizen as yourself has a username that describes purpose more than mere identity, and suggested a related version for the new postor who seems to have "attracted Teacher's Attention" in an impressively short time.
Saar, it is your misplaced inference that the name is not mere identity and describes purpose. I don't have to tell you that most yindu names have literal meaning based on which the name is named. Going by what you say, BR should have a rule that enforces people to use their real names or western names that don't mean $**t. My last on this but I am forced to respond.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by CRamS »

Even the pro-dealers have got to admit that MMS & Co have been nothing but slimy in pushing the safeguards agreement back door. If MMS feels that the deal is so vital to India's ineterest, why doesn't he take the country along? Why the secrecy instead of transparency? Can you imagine in any democracy, a ruling govt negotiating such a sensitive matter into total secrecy with foreigners without taking parliament, opposition, and people into confidence? Can you imagine the cries of betryal and treason emanating from US media if say Bush were to cut share something tantamount to safeguards agreement with a foreign body?
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by enqyoob »

sa (abbreviated acceptable ID) 8) : One option would be to insist that all "bheshtern" naams be translated to pukka desi naam:

e.g., giovanni_tushar instead of John Snow. Then "door-darshi" can become "Port Peeker". Very bheshtern. 8)
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by SaiK »

NRao wrote:Like I said way back ..... India better have a leader that has a solid backbone in 2050.
like laloos' grands?

on the naams, is it not pk iyengar already fdm-ed (firangi dork media) peter iyengar?
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by ramana »

To use a math analogy of complex variables, what was done is to isolate the poles and zeros (contentious issues) and integrate around them like Cauchy's theorem. The contentitous issues have to be tackled in the additional protocols which will be case by case and country by country specific. What was done is to move the intl community(NSG etc) to accept that nuke trade with India is acceptable. Recall NSG was called the London supplier group setup after 1974 PNE to precisely contain fallout after Indian PNE.

The terms have to be settled as and when required with those who want to trade. For example Denmark might not be interested in this trade. No need to spell out terms for trading with them. Right?

The big problem in India is all the expertise on this subject resides with the IFS and the retired members in that field (arms control, disarmament and nuke policy and international law) dont talk. So its up to minnows like us to bring some context to the table. The discourse is dominated by US experts who while being academics flit in and out of their govt so cant be sure which axe they are grinding. But DDM always calls them Prof xxx of Ivy league and gives prominence to their views like they are teachers of old gurukul who teach universal truths. These Western experts have rajya anugraha and more importantly raja sambandha.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by Suraj »

I believe these are the relevant IAEA safeguards agreement documents with respect to China. I posted it here rather than in the Indian draft discussion thread so as not to distract that thread:
INFCIRC 369 (1989)
INFCIRC 369 Add.1 (2002)
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by RajeshA »

Man this is funny! :rotfl: :rotfl:
The recent CPM’s directive to its leaders to go out to the countryside and explain the nuclear deal to the people has left its rank and file confused. “When party intellectuals cannot understand the deal, how can you expect small fry like us to do so?” asked a district-level leader.
Karat’s ‘approach’ replaces nuke deal in CPM’s hushed talks

Actually it is very easy. Every CPI(M) district-leader should carry a television and a video-recorder with him around, and then they should force people in West Bengal, Kerala and Tripura to watch Mr. Karat's speeches on nuclear deal for 4 hours.

After that, the gaonwalle must sit through a 2 hour exam, to see if they have understood it.

After that, all the examination papers will be sent to Karat, and he will correct those papers for the rest of his life.

Who says Karat hasn't got a worthwhile life to live after the great "Verarschung" at the hands of Dr. Manmohan Singh?

Viel Spaß, Karat.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by JwalaMukhi »

Raju wrote: there used to be an i.d. named "Jwalamukhi" and still is.
sorry for the digression folks. Is it paranoia to read more than necessary or is it case of ignorance of indic nature or is it case of uncomfortable feeling to identify with own culture or to demonstrate more secular than uber-secular :!: :?: :)
Hope we do not have secular brigade calling to rename jwalamukhi Hostel of eye-eye-tee Delhi or jwalamukhi temple in himachal or innumerable jwalamukhis to something more acceptable as fire face? Suppose, names such as YesuDas or Mohammed also does not cut the uber-secular (to meet the standards of High-brow culture).
:( if knowledge is being imbibed from and limited to bollywood.
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Re: Indian Nuke News & Discussion Thread-June 18 2008

Post by NRao »

India confidence vote date is set
The leaders of India's coalition say they will seek a parliamentary vote of confidence on 22 July.

Their decision follows the withdrawal of communist support for the Congress party-led coalition.

The communists withdrew support in protest at the Indian government's decision to push ahead with a civilian nuclear deal with the United States.

If the government loses the vote India faces early elections and the nuclear deal would probably be scuttled.

The government says the nuclear deal is needed to meet soaring energy demands, but the communists say it could give the US too much influence over India.

Under the terms of the nuclear accord, India would get access to US civilian nuclear technology and fuel.

In return, Delhi would open its civilian nuclear facilities to inspection - but its nuclear weapons sites would remain off-limits.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh decided to hold the vote after meeting Indian President Pratibha Patil on Thursday.

A two-day special session of the lower house of parliament - the Lok Sabha - will be convened on 21 July with the confidence vote scheduled for the following day.


The Congress party hopes that it will be able to replace support given to it by the communists in parliament by receiving the backing of the regional Samajwadi party.

________________________________________________________
TIMETABLE FOR NUCLEAR ACCORD
Approval needed from IAEA, expected in late July
Consent also required from 45-member Nuclear Suppliers Group
Congress to approve deal before President Bush signs it into law
All this to happen before Mr Bush's tenure expires on 20 January 2009
_________________________________________________________

But correspondents say it is still unclear if the coalition has enough votes for a parliamentary majority, as there is a chance that the nuclear deal could also lead to a revolt within the Samajwadi party.

A defeat for the government in a confidence vote in the 543-member house would trigger an early election, and almost certainly would mean the end of the nuclear pact with the US.

On Thursday India submitted plans for safeguarding its civilian nuclear facilities to the UN's nuclear regulatory body.

India is under pressure from Washington to sign the accord before the US presidential elections in November.

Critics of the deal fear assistance to India's civil programme could free-up additional radioactive material for bomb-making purposes.

Former communist allies of the Indian government formally withdrew support for it on Wednesday after it vowed to press ahead with the agreement.

The communists have 59 members in India's lower house of parliament, while the Samajwadi Party has 39 MPs.

Analysts say with the left pulling out of the governing coalition, the government only has 226 members in the 543-seat parliament, and needs 46 more for a majority.
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