War inside Tibet - goals, strategies and equipment

Anantz · Post by **Anantz** » 11 Jul 2008 18:42

If the trivia was for me... I dont think we have it... does it? unless if there is anything equivalent to CBU-97 from the Russians... Although wld love to be enlightened..

OTOH is BL 755 a sensor fused weapon or for that matter can Durandal be called a SFW??

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jul 2008 19:35

Abhishekcc, If you mean sub-munitions, look at the 155mm cargo shell that OFB produces. THats why I was wondering if it can be packaged in a larger cargo case for aircraft delivery.There are regular reports from DRDO Techfocus about developing a mini-parachute 'skeet' type payload to attack armor from top down. This later type is called SFW in US lingo.

And there was report about Indian refusal to join a cluster bomb ban agreement started by UK and the blond knights. This implies India has or is planning to have such ordnance.

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 11 Jul 2008 22:42

Hope this is the right thread to post.....

Underground expressway proposed between Siliguri & Sikkim

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/New ... 221985.cms

Will this be better for the troop movement to the tri-junction?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Jul 2008 23:57

6-page road trip article on latest outlook traveller issue on Manali-Leh

http://www.outlooktraveller.com/issueco ... =0&id=1338

it misses the map in the print edition which refers to a spur that goes
east from the highway into an area of lakes and plains. its mentioned you
need an inner line permit to get into that spur.

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 14 Jul 2008 01:02

More Sukhois in the NE

http://www.hindu.com/2008/07/14/stories ... 571300.htm

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 14 Jul 2008 01:16

frm above link

Defence spokesperson Group Captain R.K. Das said: “Plans are in the pipeline to upgrade the Chabua airbase by April 2009 when it is expected to get a squadron of Sukhoi-30s, strengthening the already existing fleet of 26 MiG-21s there.”

Located at a strategic position from where the Chinese border is — 180 km away — and the Myanmar border (80 km east), the Chabua station lies within a 500-km diameter of four Chinese airbases on the other side of the border.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Jul 2008 11:41

dibrugarh airport is chabua. which means its really a mil base that
AAI leases time on (like goa, pune and many more). however good thing is
it will already have the atc infra, big runways and can easily handle B737
and IL76...maybe even A300 with a bit of rework.

good..very good. jorhat which is the major site for IAF cargo ops into
arunachal can also be uprated into a bigger base capable of hosting
guest squadrons of fighters from western india.

so too guwahati, there is ample land within existing premises and location
is ideal for flying over bhutan, tawang to pound the crap out of anyone.
at present GAU only has a Mi17 heli squadron permanently sited.

pretty much all our newly forming squadrons of su30s must be earmarked for
northern and eastern command instead of wasting their time in the west.
uttaranchal could do with a major new base someplace like haridwar,
roorkee or dehra dun...just on edge of foothills.

vipins · Post by **vipins** » 14 Jul 2008 20:16

http://in.news.yahoo.com/43/20080714/88 ... ian_1.html

The Indian Army has 10 divisions dedicated to mountain warfare and another infantry division earmarked for high-altitude operations.

They are deployed in strategically important areas along the borders with Pakistan and China.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Jul 2008 14:26

Singha: Dibrugargh and Chabua are too different airports. While Chabua is an AF base what is actually referred to as Dibrugargh airport is a place called Mohanbari. It's midway between Chabua and Dibrugargh. You've to take a left turn from the main road if you're travelling from Dibrugargh to Chabua. This airport shares facility with 2 Mi-17 helicopter sqn of the IAF. check the google map.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jul 2008 14:33

Ah! thanks...had only flown from there once as a 6 yr old kid

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 15 Jul 2008 17:36

Looks there was some Late wakeup Call

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/To_m ... 237176.cms

To match China, IAF upgrades bases in east
15 Jul 2008, 1627 hrs IST,PTI

CHABUA (ASSAM): Worried at the increase in Chinese airfields along the border, the Centre is upgrading its infrastructure and fleet strength at all Air Force stations under the Eastern Air Command.

"AFS Chabua is surrounded by 14 airfields on the Chinese side. Not all of them are now being used, but they can be made operational within a week," Commanding Officer of the Chabua airbase, Group Captain M S Venkateswara told a group of visiting newspersons here.

Pointing out that the border with China was 170 km north and that with Myanmar 80 km south of Chabua airbase, he said, "This calls for an increase in air defence mechanism."

Though the situation at present was not alarming, there was a threat perception from the Chinese side as the position of their airfields make a multi-directional approach possible during operations, he said, adding that China could also use Myanmarese air space against India given the good relations between the two countries.

In view of the threat perception, air force bases at Dibrugarh, Mohanbari, Jorhat, Guwahati, Tezpur, Hasimara and Bagdogra were being upgraded.

According to Venkateswara, the Chinese have SU-27s, SU-30s, J-8s and J-10s deployed at these airbases. While they were not likely to deploy GF-17s, but the possibility exists.

Chabua, which now has two squadrons of MiG-27s, will get Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) and Multi-Modal Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) as part of the upgrade programme.

The Operations Conversion Unit (OCU) of AFS Chabua was conducting round-the-clock sorties to maintain vigil on the airspace, he said.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Jul 2008 20:12

From above report there is a station at Diburgarh, Mohanbari and Chabua!

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 15 Jul 2008 21:08

News on same topic but see how differently they are written and contain some imp info too.

IAF upgrades bases in east to counter China
http://in.news.yahoo.com/48/20080715/80 ... ounte.html

Tue, Jul 15 07:39 PM

Worried at the increase in Chinese airfields along the border, the Centre is upgrading its infrastructure and fleet strength at all Air Force stations under the Eastern Air Command.

Air force sources, requesting anonymity, said assets from the Western Sector were being moved towards the Eastern Sector in view of the 'threat' from China.

In keeping with the upgrade plans, AFS Dinjan, an Air Defence Data Control Centre (ADDC), will have a Commercial Off-the-Shelf (COTS) Air Data Handling System within the next month, replacing the Star Sapphire Radar now being used.

"Our basic objectives are to identify enemy aircraft, do a threat evaluation of the assets and destroy them with the help of interceptors and air defence artillery. With COTS data handling, we can do the identification and threat evaluation automatically," Squadron Leader R Mukherjee, an officer with the 511 Signal Unit at Dinjan, said.

Briefing journalists, who are on a tour of the air force facilities, Mukherjee, a flight controller in the ADDC, explained that after identifying an enemy asset and evaluating its threat, the ADDC issues 'scramble' orders to fighter aircraft for its destruction.

"After receiving the orders, our men take about three minutes to get airborne and scramble after the enemy aircraft," he said.

Stating that Dinjan would be the second ADDC in the country to get a COTS radar after Lucknow, he said this would go a long way in better monitoring aircraft movement along the 1,600-km border with China and Myanmar.

While the Western Sector witnesses one scramble operation after approximately every 10 days, its number has come down recently, air force sources said, adding that there was a possibility of the Eastern Sector witnessing such operations in future.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jul 2008 21:16

vivek ahuja had correctly predicted the PRC would use its bases in yunnan side at normal altitude to attack India,
flying over myanmar. this repesents a powerful new threat axis with the large nos of J10, su27 and su30 they
have gathered. or medium and long range SAM inventory is years away from completion on Akash and Barak-2
fronts.

looks like my wish to have the entire chain of bases in NE upgraded and turned into a interlocking armed camp is
granted, whether one likes it or not.

the unusual speed and decisiveness of this 'look east' policy indicates satellites have picked up serious ill omens.

sum · Post by **sum** » 15 Jul 2008 21:59

the unusual speed and decisiveness of this 'look east' policy indicates satellites have picked up serious ill omens.

This very unsual(by GoI standards) hurry in China specific defence tilt started right after MMS landed back from his China visit...
Can only imagine what his hosts told him during the visit which scared the entire GoI apparatus into a tizzy....

The major Chinese targetted announcements have been:
*the announcement of border and NE roads immediately on landing from China
* the baring of the ATV
* K-15 test firing
* A-III with all and sundry specifically mentioning China as the target
* strike mountain div raising
and now
*all NE bases getting a (much needed) major upgrade....

Something sure is cooking on the Chinese front.

How good are our air defences in the NE compared to the formidable Chinese network?
The one thing(in case of hostilities) which will really haunt us is severe shortage of 155 mm artillery(courtesy Kangress)

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 15 Jul 2008 22:08

vivek ahuja had correctly predicted the PRC would use its bases in yunnan side at normal altitude to attack India, flying over myanmar

It maybe worth noting that the minorities of Yunan and Sichuan are in a restive mood.

Does it ring a bell?

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 15 Jul 2008 22:15

What about Bangladesh? Will they concede open skies policy? In 1987 Ershad had given a commitment to Deng that Bangladesh will not allow overflights to IAF.

We need to ensure that overflight rights are given so that Kalaikunda and other airfields can leveraged to good effect.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jul 2008 22:19

in artillery atleast we have around 400 bofors for which a support contract was signed by NDA with the
OEM after kargil slapped some common sense into delhi apparatus.

in AD you have the entire family of S-300PMU1 and PMU2 missiles ranging upto 150km
stacked up against upgraded SA6 and SA2's on our side. its a very bad mismatch.

and neither we have the low level snappy kit like spyder or vl-mica to defend airbases
and camps with. we will have to comandeer all the Tunguska & Shilka lying in our strike corps
and use that for base defence. the Shilka was supposed to get an upg but again
hanging fire after the BEL-israeli pkg was rejected.

we will have to depend american style very heavily on fighter cover unlike again we havent
even got our first phalcon while PLAAF has obtained a few A50 with its own radar or Shmel
and "balance beam" AEW.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Jul 2008 22:23

BD will have to overflown, its not that they can do anything about it except shout abuse from below.
ofcourse we will send the paperwork and make a polite request first.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 15 Jul 2008 23:52

PLAAF may have not have the skills to target Airbases which tend to be more strongly defended. They will use Ballistic and Cruise missiles to target Tezpur, Bagdogra, Jorhat, Gau etc. with cluster munitions. Do we know if they have practised using Durandel runaway busters.

Their airpower will be probably be used to overwhelm SUs and Jags in swarms, and target convoys, supply lines, depots etc.

The key is boots on the ground(Infantry) . Here in quality and quantity we are equal to them if not better. Need to ensure enough 105mms, mules, pack artillery, 81mm and 120 mm mortars along with enough supplies for 10-14 days of supply are available this summer onwards.

Lack of Airborne warning systems, tankers etc. on our side will cause significant losses but may not affect the overall outcome significantly as we may be on the defense in NE. It is in AK where we will be on the offensve and there PRC offensive capabilities there are limited as their supply lines will be vulnerable, may not have NE's advantage of more air support either.

Added later: 1962 conflict happened in OCtober AFAIK, so need to be exta vigilant at that time of the year.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jul 2008 00:05

The GOI is having journalists get a dekko at the facilities is an indicator of need to convey messages of preparedness for both internal and external education. Also as it shows these things take time and maybe the threat perception in Delhi is it will be later than sooner. Could also be an enticement.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Jul 2008 00:13

I think all these are deterrence posture. the chinese defence attache will be faxing such reports to his bosses
on a daily basis.

India does not want a war, if war can be prevented with a deterrence posture that is a desirable outcome
from GoI's pov.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 16 Jul 2008 00:22

Ramana: Sooner rather later is a relative term. PRC knows that with Pakistan getting weaker, task of keeping us keeping us is getting to be more difficult by the day. Also with the indeigenous armament systems coming online, increased spending on defense by default (GDP going up by 7% - 9%), IUCNA, increased competition from India in Africa, SEAsiaetc for resources, getting bracketed with India by int media, they need to move sooner rather than later.

It may be recalled that Ayub, ZAB, Mush all have argued for moving against India sooner rather than later in the past.

I think possibility is high in the short to medium term.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jul 2008 00:28

Paul, It takes at least two to three years to realize all those infrastructures. If the threat perception is earlier than that, then whats the point of making all those medium term measures? So I think GOI is saying that it needs two to three years for all that. Now one can say they (GOI) are telegraphing their intent when they should be using cell phones. If so why?

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 16 Jul 2008 00:34

From their POV, to make this succeed they need to move in the next 2-3 years before these infrstructural improvements on our side bear results.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 16 Jul 2008 00:47

Remember that being a dictatorship - the pressuse will be higher on China to shopw victory.

This factor cuts both ways -
1. If they suspect that they cannot win, then they will not initiatye awar.
2. However, if war starts, they will put in more resources to win it.

SO, the pivot factor is to make the CHinese understand they cannot win a war. It is not only enough to be tough, but also to show toughness to them.

They must be stared down in this game - they need to understand they cannot win every war - that's the only thing that will get them down from their xenophobic high horse.

malushahi · Post by **malushahi** » 16 Jul 2008 03:56

Singha wrote:the unusual speed and decisiveness of this 'look east' policy indicates satellites have picked up serious ill omens.

Singha, bet you are right on the money.

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/331219.html

"His comments come in the wake of reports about a Chinese troop buildup in Tibet with some estimates pointing out that close to 2.50 lakh soldiers are within “striking distance” of India along the border. Reports also say that intelligence agencies have received “shocking” satellite images of Chinese troop buildup in the region. Analysts have also commented on the rapid deployment of troops in Tibet by China after riots broke out in the region this March, largely due to the new rail link and improved highways."

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Jul 2008 06:43

So surprise again. How come all the imagery from the various IRS sats of PRC and Tibet in particular wasn't reviewed on regular basis and this even after the KRC and GOM reforms in setting up a technical agency? Was that also mired in turf war as usual?
And to add to the mess wasnt there a recent about four months satement by Gen. kapoor that pooh-poohed PRC intrusions?

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 16 Jul 2008 06:57

It is possible that GOI is speaking softly but wants to carry a big stick. They do not want to repeat Nehru's mistake of 1959 when he foolishly asked the Army to throw the Chinese out/implement forward policy when all we had on the border was a few police chowkis.

This could be one reason why MMS stayed away from visiting Tawang earlier this year. No point in indulging in needless provocation when infrstructure is not complete.

Get the message across quietly, that is all.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Jul 2008 08:28

abhischekcc or rohitvats or anyone else if you sent me a SMS yesterday I have replied to it +vely.
saturday noon is best for me.

malushahi · Post by **malushahi** » 16 Jul 2008 08:58

Paul wrote:It is possible that GOI is speaking softly but wants to carry a big stick.

would like to agree, however, imvvho it may be a belated reaction to the encirclement from Tibet and Yunnan.

Case in point, someone on this or the China watch thread has already talked about the massive 5000m Garbiutangka AFB (also called the Shiquanhe airport) in the Ngeri prefecture of Tibet. Apparently built "to shorten the trip between the isolated prefecture and other areas in the region", I struggle to come up the benefits accruing from this massive capital investment. How long would it take to recoup the investment considering the occupancy of flights alighting from or landing into this isolated airport.

.. till using Google Earth I drew a line between the Shiquanhe "airport" ( 32°29'55.77"N, 80° 4'56.24"E) and Sargodha (32° 2'55.01"N, 72°39'54.29"E). The line follows the Sutlej gorge and continues all the way westwards to Pathankot, a distance of roughly 700 kms, neatly meeting our neighbours' historical and startegic objectives. conspiracy theory? hmmm…

May interest the guru-jan to know that Garbiutangka is 400 kms away from Bareilly AFB as the crow flies, yet only 152 kms away from a key fauji/paramil logistic node (not mentioning its name here). This node is 235 kms from Bareilly. vivek_ahuja has already mentioned elsewhere that any advantages to Indian birds due to taking off from its airbases close to sea-level will be marginal at best considering the runway length at Garbiutangka.

Another "beauty" is the recently completed Linzhi Airport (29°18'12.28"N, 94°20'5.21"E). Ostensibly another civilian airport in the Tibetan wilderness, the topography does not seem quite military grade. Situated adjacent to the Upper and West Siang districts, midway between the Subansiri and Brahmputra axes in a narrow valley, it is just 13 kms from the Indo-Chinese border as the crow flies. Not much of a reason to keep a wary eye out till one reads that it has recently been equipped with "advanced flight management systems and satellite navigation". Dual-purpose??

http://www.aviationnow.com/aw/generic/s ... t,%20Tibet

Yet another.. Xigaze Airport, also called Bomda Airport (29°21'17.57"N, 89°18'43.80"E) is another 5000m behemoth right above the Sikkim/Bhutan/Tibet tri-junction. Situated at 155 kms from "Finger area" and 230 kms from the southernmost tip of Chumbi valley, in my view it is another "pressure point". To put it in perspective, the closest Indian bases at Bagdogara/Hashimara are 163/173 kms from the "Finger area".

Apologies at the rambling post. Would be one of the happiest if our worst thoughts are without any legs..

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 16 Jul 2008 10:06

When will mass production of the Agni II-AT begin? I think Arun_S mentioned it once, but I don't remember. Thanks.

Another 20 used Mirages or Mig-29's would sure come in handy right now ... If there's a new Indian government, perhaps they can take action on that. (I know that an additional 40 MKI's have been ordered, but it looks like we'll need everything we can get our hands on, ASAP.)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Jul 2008 10:29

gee they seem to be cloning 5000m airports all over the place.
and building capacious aprons and hardened shelters can be done
very quickly using the hordes of well trained labour & machinery
they deploy. PRC is after all the worlds biggest consumer of steel
and cement for construction.

we will have to move many squadrons from the west in response,
base infra will take time to catch up but stuff like prefab trailers
could be used.

wonder what MMS was told on his beijing visit that awoke the
UPA from its delutionary slumber? must have been pretty scary
to energize a man so placid. maybe they insulted him openly and
told him they were going to "fix us" one way or another.

malushahi · Post by **malushahi** » 16 Jul 2008 11:21

one would certainly wonder what it was that woke up the man.

moving long-legged and heavy-lift squadrons would help indeed. but a more fundamental issue is parity in infrastructure. how many places in arunachal can receive a 757 versus the gentry from middle kingdom who can land it 13 kms away from its border (see prior post).

you beat me to the idea about a major airbase in uttaranchal. there are a few "forward" places in UT with airstrips of about 1300m with room for expansion, presumably a result of an incomplete strategy to create defacto forward bases. these would certainly qualify as being strategic in my view (again not posting their particulars here); suffice to say some are visible on GE, others not. question is - are the people in the know listening?

much of the same would hold for the NE. it was stunning to see that very little has changed on our side of the border by the way of airport/airbases/infra. in the NE versus the change in yunnan since 1945 when flying "the hump" ceased.

google video hosts a clip about a landing at linzhi ("worlds most challenging instrument approach"

). commendable that - gotta give them their fair share..

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 1767222314

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Jul 2008 11:29

I have read old books by american transport pilots of their ops from kolkata and
assam over the hump in WW2. pretty much all the bases now were also there in
that era. infact there were some more which were abandoned after the war.
my grandfather who was a exec engr in PWD (educated in dhaka univ

)
spent most of the war supervising roads, airports and military infra construction
in upper assam then.

after the 1962 debacle the policy of not developing border infra to stop a land
advance was approved methinks. but a drubbing via A2G attacks in the rear
is also a "lesson taught" in the PRC's playbook.

PRC has just continued steadily to build infra regardless of any hostile or
friendly moves from India - which means they have a endgame and goal in
mind.

malushahi · Post by **malushahi** » 16 Jul 2008 11:44

admins: not sure why i have pm disabled. could you please enable it? thanks.
singha: in the absence of pm for me, is there some way i can send you a mail/message. has to do with one of your posts here.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Jul 2008 11:50

sure email me as :Edited: ramana

malushahi · Post by **malushahi** » 16 Jul 2008 12:07

singha: mail sent. please confirm receipt and action.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 16 Jul 2008 13:19

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/maldives-co ... 915-2.html

"Gayoom is trying to shift his friendship ties from India towards China with the belief that it would be difficult for him to maintain a strong friendly relationship, personal relationship with India while there is call for democracy at home," Nasheed says.

There is now talk about the Chinese setting up a military bases in one of the Maldivian islands.

see how fast they are trying to surround us,and we are still in our old laid back attitude

.we already lost nepal,BD,Myanmar to them.

why cant we warn them that any military base nearby will be treated as escalation,like the ruskies done to americans on Planned Missile sheild in Poland

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Jul 2008 13:29

forum sw does not let me edit my old posts. is anyone else facing same issue?

Malushahi, since I am unable to fix the error perhaps it can remain as
a marker for PRC's aggressive intent in the worst case.