India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

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Arun_S
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Arun_S »

shiv wrote:I think Kakodkar is right. The 3 stage program was never going to be "fast' - and India's development has increased the energy requirement projection so much that we have to grab as much as we can from every possible source. I fully sympathize with that.
Well that highlighted stmt is close to one of the facts. And this goes to the defense of DAE. If there is no import of fissile material (I.e. natural-Uranium, Enriched Uranium, or Reactor Grade Plutonium), then the Thorium power capacity ramp has to be organic (read Boot Strapped) growth, that will be limited by the rate of excess (and enriched) fissile material that can be generated by FBR (or PHWR) for the initial load to make the reactor critical (IIRC for 300MWe AHWR that is ~1.5 tonnes of fissile material Pu but can be U235 too), and followed by ~50 Kg Pu every year (to compensate for neutron shortage of Thorium fuel cycle). As one can see the rate of organic growth can only be increased by either:
  • 1.) Rapid buildup of FBRs AND technological maturity to use "Metal form fuel element" in the FBR (instead of using MoX, or Carbide chemistry fuel elements). In spite of tall but empty boasts over last 10 years, DAE is still many years away from this.

    2.) Rapid build up of PHWR/HWR whose spent fuel is rich in Pu (~0.22%). This will obviously eat the local mineral reserve rapidly, and is constraining.
Now with the US-India Civil Nuclear Deal, the DAE has a new option to unconstrained fuel supply (nat-U or Enriched-U or Pu). But look at how they have again wrapped themselves in rope, by the terms of the agreement!

The simplest and most direct way to ramp Nuclear power capacity would be mass produce and mass build a reactor type that is safe, cheap and simple, and the reactor design of the future in terms of higher fuel burnup and smaller qty of radioactive waste.
In the 3 stage fuel cycle:
  • A>) PHWR stage is not good choice: generates too much spent fuel due to use of nat-Uranum
    B>) FBR is not a good choice because of cost (construction and operation) and technological and safety risks
    C>) AHWR (Thorium based) is a very good choice (safety, cost, highly efficient in fuel utilization etc etc). But it still a paper design and DAe/PMO has not even sanctioned money for the prototype. OTOH AHWR is very similar to PHWR (in fact simpler)
But then look at the agreement that 600 lb gorilla negotiated with US? It does not allow import of enriched fissile fuel above a certain enrichment required for FBR operation. That kills the possibility to rampup FBR as the main driving force in a fuel unconstrained scheme to catchup with national deficit.

So the result is that the Indian Monkey is still wrapped up and constrained by foreign fuel suppliers, in spite of the intent (of J18 or the preamble of US agreement) :rotfl:
And so the natives come out with the Bootstrapped FBR build up plan where by, FBR buildup is seeded by 40GWe reactors whose spent fuel has ~ 0.5% Pu. Use that Pu to start the FBRs running MoX (poor breeding ratio, barely self sustaining fuel cycle, much less ability to produce excess to boot strap next FBR). During the process learn and prove Carbide based fuel element, and eventually graduate to bare metal fissile fuel element. Once at bare metal fuel element technology, the FBR can now exponentially bring to life new FBR's (that are waiting for high enrichment fuel). But bare mental fuel core I suspect will take at least another 10 years from now.

So roughly 20 years from now there will be critical mass of FBRs that can ramp additional FBR capacity at unconstrained rate to reach the stage where there for every 100MWE FBR capacity there could be 300MWe AHWR reactor that operates in a equiblium ecosystem without requiring any further uranium.

In the above the fallacy is that given all the time they will wait for FBR capacity and bare metal fuel element to be ready, it will be cheaper and faster to have the AHWR ready before that. Given all the advantages of cost, safety and Thorium fuel the wonderfully negotiated US-India civil nuke deal offers India imported nuclear fuel to fill for the ~10-20% neutron deficit of the Thorium driven AHWR. But no that shall not be the method of DAE/PMO.

So I often ask myself what was the purpose of J18 and Indo-US Civil Nuclear Agreement?
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by JE Menon »

>>So I often ask myself what was the purpose of J18 and Indo-US Civil Nuclear Agreement?

On the geo-political level: The US is making up for a mistake it made decades ago, without admitting to it - it completely misread India, our aspirations, our determination and our capabilities - and most importantly our potential; I put this down to too much reliance on British perspectives from, for lack of a better phrase, "old school" Whitehall chappies suffering a post-colonial hangover. In short, the US establishment is trying to say: Look the past is past, and this is a way for us to go forward... It is a gesture of goodwill, if you will. The Hyde Act is the fig leaf that covers the numerous acts and amendments that constrained us post 1974.

On the strategic level: It takes down the only serious obstacle to near-complete freedom and flexibility in our bilateral relations. Once this deal is done, neither side can use the nuclear issue as a stick to beat the other with. One might wonder what stick did we have? The US had the stick and was beating us regularly. This was true only until the early 1990s. We leveraged the nuclear obstacle nicely when it suited us. In that sense, we are losing some leveraging instruments on a bilateral level, but we are gaining others as a result of the deal. With the no confidence vote, we have indicated that India is ready for a closely interwoven relationship across the spectrum of government to government interaction. People to people is already in place. This is a valuable partnership that will allow us to widen our geo-political wings with one key player semi-neutralised.

On the commercial level: Needless to say, the money making potential is obvious once the trade in nuclear and other dual-use technologies is freed from the constraining regimes related to the various treaties from NPT to Wassenaar, etc. We will, in other words, be limited only by our ingenuity in generating the associated commerce. I have few doubts that we are lacking in this regard.

Ultimately, the deal is as much about a new kind of relationship with global powers - a relationship these powers need as much as we do. This is understood by both sides, and the dynamics of the negotiations were clearly influenced by that. Any doubts about India's potential has been put to rest. Any doubts about the ability of our political system to play with the big boys has also been put to rest.

For that transition to be made, the primary world power had to take the leading role - and fortunately, it happened to be the US - with whom, contrary to apparently popular derision, we have fundamental systemic affinities. We would not have broken out of the restraining shackles without the US playing the role it is playing now. As interaction between the US and India on government to government level has grown over the past two decades (almost), a basic appreciation of each side's compulsions and local dynamics is gradually being internalised.

A close and even inter-twined relationship with the US is inevitable commercially, and therefore, strategically. The benefits must be mutual for them to be sustained. This does not mean that all will be hunky-dory. There will be disagreements, even fundamental ones, and there will certainly be times when we will be on opposite sides of a given geo-political issue. However, what we are doing will ensure that the relationship will not be subjected to massive flux at any point.

Again, this does not mean it will not be. Nothing is certain. It is a well-considered gamble. Much depends on how we "manage" each other. All things considered, my personal view is that we are on the right track boss.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by shiv »

I thought this deal was for building safeguarded reactors, and fuel for them. I recall nothing that stated that fuel will be supplied for our 3 stage program. The 3 stage program will muddle on without interference as far as I can tell. Nothing has been done to stop that or speed it up.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by vina »

Shivji,

The 123 deal supplies fuel for safeguarded reactors. That means even the separated fuel should also go into safeguarded reactors. There is nothing which stops India from separating fuel from the safeguarded reactors and fuel it's FBR/Thorium AHWR whatever. The only condition is that the FBRs and AHWRS and all that comes downstream should be under full safeguards.

India accepts that principle fully.That is why we agreed to the separation plan. You can use the fuel got via 123 agreement and it's downstream products in fully safeguarded facilities. What you cannot do , is divert them to military use. In fact, with the 123 in place, we can skip the FBR part fully and skip directly to AHWR , if we could import the fissile material (me nook moorkh's understanding of the nook part). There is nothing written in stone about the 3 stage plan. The three stage plan was envisaged as a "fully indigenous" / self sufficient kind of thing . It shouldn't become a fetish (like 100% indigenous /self sufficient in everything) and if we can import and get ahead in life and realize the ultimate aim of utilizing our vast thorium reserves, we should..
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by NRao »

Sanjay M wrote:
Katare wrote:I do not agree with his readings of kakodkar's presentation. He is using selective reading and taking things outta context to show a potential scenario where 3-stage program gets back tracked due to abundant supply of imported uranium.

Simply ain't gonna happen. As of now things will happen as planned if they can meet time schedule.
I thought one of the backroom deals inside this 123 Deal was that India mothballs the FBR program.
Where did you come up with that one Sanjay? You are not kidding, are you?

I tossed it out based on suspicion that GNEP will come into force.

However, based on past events, including what I consider a gag order on scicom, the recent vote and now the fact that these graphs were issued first by PMO (?????), I am inclined to believe that the PMO is directing traffic based on political considerations. And, could have subscribed to GNEP and ultimately denuking the region (as per the Hyde Act). As long as Chicom and TSP are denuked, India can give it up too.

I am begining to think that the Hyde Act is a "preamble" (oh why not, what with IAEA and NSG deals with preambles) to the GNEP philosophy.
shiv wrote:I thought this deal was for building safeguarded reactors, and fuel for them. I recall nothing that stated that fuel will be supplied for our 3 stage program. The 3 stage program will muddle on without interference as far as I can tell. Nothing has been done to stop that or speed it up.
As explained above by Vina, there are two categories of "FBR"s: civilian and non-civilian. The prior is open to using imported fuel.

However, the catch is that the imported fuel assumes imported reprocessing techs, which have not been granted so far. India has PUREX, etc, but I suspect the West will not allow India to use anything with Indian IP - because of atom accounting and skimming.

The more I think about it the US will not allow India to use FBRs. I fully expect Indian scicom to validate the findings of Japan, etc - that FBR is not a financially viable option.
Gerard
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Gerard »

As long as Chicom and TSP are denuked, India can give it up too.
Unkil is going to denuke the middle kingdom? I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale. Cheap.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by CRamS »

Where is our good friend R-man? Please read this news item below fresh from NYT to understand why I don't trust Unkil on the nuke deal. Is this the appropriate behavior of someone who wants a strategic partnership with India or is it just used car salesman talk to con gullible Indians:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/24/world ... pstan.html

Admins: On the face of it, this bit of news has nothing to do with this thread. But if you read Mulford's comment that Unkil is going to 'persuade' TSP not to create trouble at the IAEA, this F-16 BS could be one of the carrots towards that end.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by NRao »

I already bought that bridge.

Middle Kingdom is in the sights of My Henry (what is with all these Henry guys?) Gyde. And, MMS for sure has signed off on it - looks like they spent a lot of capital, more than I spent on the bridge, on votes.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by enqyoob »

BTW, I have recently been reading a lot of 1980s stuff on countering ICBMs specifically, about beam weapons. Had no idea this stuff was in the open literature- apparently they had conferences where Soviet and US ppl came and presented all sorts of stuff. Now I feel that ICBMs are not just GOING to be obsolete, they BECAME obsolete in the mid-90s. Effective counters have been long-since found even for MIRV things. Obviously very little of this is on the web.

So much for megaton nuke development and testing being an issue.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by NRao »

N^3,

Guess I bought that bridge for nothing at all. Perhaps I can at least move it to Chicago.

CRS,

The dynamics are very different. The US does not care about the regional dynamics as long as it does not spill over into the dynamics that the US is concerned about in the region. I would not be surprised if the Indo-Pak "conflict" is treated as kids fighting in the near future - even with nukes in the equation.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Kakkaji »

As per my moti buddhi the practical reasons why GOI wanted this nuclear deal are:

1. With limited reserves of domestic uranium, India cannot simultaneously have a military nuclear program and a large scale nuclear power generation program.

2. With this deal, India can have a significantly large civilian nuclear power generation program using imported uranium fuel and imported reactors, while the domestic uranium can be used exclusively to support the military nuclear program.

As Shiv has posted, the demand for power is rising so fast in India that even with imported reactors and fuel, nuclear power will fill only part of the demand-supply gap. However, as an additional option to bridge the demand-supply gap, this addition to the mix is quite desirable.

The Thorium-based nirvana is maya at this stage. It may or may not happen. We should not reject getting imported uranium based bird-in-hand for Thorium-based bird-in-the bush, esp if this bird-in-hand does not curtail our military program.

JMT
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by enqyoob »

A Bush in the hand is worth a megaton of thorium on the beach ...
ramana
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by ramana »

Kakkaji, Another reason was to legitimize Indian weapons and get those blanket sanctions removed. This is big goal on Indian side. Yes there is a defacto status(SNW) as opposed to the dejure status(NWS). One cant rewind the clock back to 1968. So on that front quite lot was achieved. Looking back London Supplier group aka NSG was created after POK1 as a reaction to that. And having them reconsider their stance is poetic justice.

KS has spent a lot of thought on how to square the circle on NPT and India and has written reams on it. However until the 1998 tests and declaration as a nuke weapon state much cant be done.

I have been following his writings frm 1986 in the press and since 1972 in his books.


As regards Nukmart countries and wannabes, the deal is difficult to be spread around for it goes against the philosophy of survival of modern nation states. All the nuke mart countries dont beleive in Westphalian state constructs. They belong to alliance which rejuvenate pre-State theory constructs- OIC etc. So very difficult when they act like ducks and quack like ducks but are mentally hyenas. there will be moves to severely restrict such defacto recognition.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by shiv »

NRao wrote:
The more I think about it the US will not allow India to use FBRs. I fully expect Indian scicom to validate the findings of Japan, etc - that FBR is not a financially viable option.
If I am alive 20 years from now and if we are in touch, I would be willing to bet you on this. India is not going to do that.

Only we need to wait and watch - 20 years seems like a good interval to assess progress. By the same token - I will be unable to accept what you say until I have seen what happens for 20 years. India has already started the process and everyone tells me that India has developed tech that others have not bothered about. I see it as hardly likely that India will throw it away.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by SaiK »

the russians are coming again!~ oh those russians!.
http://deccanherald.com/Content/Jul2420 ... updatenews The VVER-1000 type of 1000 MW nuclear power plants of Russia are based on the most advanced technologies. There are 52 such reactors in the world, of them 14 are operating in Russia.
Regarding safety claims, I agree.. But on what empherical data?
Here is one: -http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VVER

And search on the word "operational", and check the dates. How can they claim about safety of the future without the past?

I am sure BARC would have considered approaches for changes in safety measures, especially for >8. richter, and tsunamies.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by svinayak »


The Drama of Unreality - Indo-US nuclear deal

By: Dr.Dipak Basu
http://www.blogs.ivarta.com/india-usa-b ... umn131.htm

7/16/2008 4:27:15 PM
Author's Home Page
Views expressed here are author"s own and not of this website. Full disclaimer is at the bottom.

(The author is a Professor in International Economics in Nagasaki University, Japan)


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The recent drama regarding the Indo-US nuclear treaty has demonstrated the unrealistic approaches of all parties concerned both the Congress and the so-called Left parties. The unrealistic expectation of The Congress party is that by signing the treaty India can somehow avoid the danger posed by the increasing price of crude oil and a possible energy shortage in future. Another unrealistic expectation is that USA wants to set up India as a bulwark against China and in future it would protect India against possible invasion from China. The Left parties are equally unrealistic to think that the Indian public has no recollection of the Chinese invasion of 1962 and it is possible to promote China in India, when China is doing everything to undermine India. By posing themselves as the champion of China, the left parties have gained no public sympathy, when the Congress party now discards them as rotten potato.

The Reality No 1:

The correct situation is that USA is not offering anything at all to India, but has forced every members of the Nuclear Suppliers Group, about 44 countries of the World including Russia, not to supply anything at all to India regarding nuclear energy and related matters. Russia after India"s nuclear tests in 1974 was the only country for India as a source of materials for the nuclear energy including weapons and nuclear power plants. The only exceptions are USA, which has continued to supply fuels for the Tarapur nuclear plant for some years and China, who has supplied fuels for the Tarapur plant after the refusal of the US to do so. Russia so far has supplied India heavy water plants, reprocessing plants, Fast Breeder Reactors and two fresh nuclear power plants with the excuse that the contracts for these were signed between India and the Soviet Union, which Russia has to oblige.
However, other member countries particularly USA would not listen to that argument anymore and have practically forced Russia to stop supplying any new nuclear power plants or any new supplies for the India"s nuclear industries, unless India would allow inspections by the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). That would practically means that India has no choice but to abandon nuclear weapons programme and to accept full-scale safeguard from the IAEA so that in future India would not be able to produce any weapons grade nuclear materials either. Due to the objections raised by USA, Russia is disinterested to continue to supply nuclear materials or power plants to India anymore. The sudden shift of Russia"s position is the result of India"s decision to ignore Russia and to buy weapons systems, aircrafts, submarines from Israel, Britain and France and India"s growing interest to purchase aircrafts from USA.

Now USA is suggesting that if India would purchase nuclear power plants not from Russia but from the US, these restrictions can be relaxed in case India can separate out the civilians power plants from those which can be even remotely utilized by the Indian defense establishments. Both of these steps require massive financial investments. The purchase of nuclear power plants from USA would mean paying possibly ten times more than the cost of corresponding Russian nuclear power plants.

Thus, it is a kind of business negotiations with carrots and sticks attached to it. In practice, India has no other option but to accept the American offer, as Putin is not Yeltsin, who has rejected the American demand in 1993 not to supply any defense equipments to India particularly rocket engines which can be utilized to manufacture longer range missiles. India"s relationship with Russia is going downhill for the last few years as India is purchasing weapons at a much higher costs from France, Israel, Britain and will possibly buy from USA, not from Russia. As a result, Putin, who even after his resignation is still the centre of power in Russia, is reluctant to support India anymore.

The nuclear offer of the US is not a friendly gesture to India as the Indian media is trying to portray but a process of surrender for India regarding its nuclear energy and weapons programme. If India buys nuclear power plants from the US, these would be under full-scale inspection of the IAEA, thus India cannot divert anything from these plants for the defense services. India will not get the reprocessing plant, without which it cannot manufacture nuclear weapons. If India buys not from the Russians, they would be reluctant to help India in future regarding missiles, rockets, and nuclear fuel enrichment programme.

Thus, gradually India nuclear weapons programme will disappear. India"s efforts to develop missiles and rockets would be affected adversely too. Thus, India would be much less powerful than Pakistan in every aspect, as Pakistan has no such constraints. It would continue to receive both advanced nuclear weapons and missiles from China in future as it had received in the past with the full knowledge of the US since the days of President Reagan.

The Reality No 2:

The media both in India and in USA are giving the impression that USA is trying to make India as a bulwark against China. In fact, USA since 1972 has made China as a bulwark against the Soviet Union by supplying indirectly every type of weapons technology via Israel, France, Pakistan, and Turkey. USA also made China as the permanent member of the UN Security Council as a counterweight against the Soviet Union.

However, USA has no intention to use India in the same way because of some important reasons. There was no American investment in the Soviet Union in 1972, but the bulk of the foreign investments in China today are from the US and its allied countries. The Soviet Union did not have in 1972 massive amounts of US Dollars as its foreign exchange reserve, as China has today. There was virtually no trade between USA and the Soviet Union except during the late 1980s. However, China"s exports and as a result its economy depends on USA, UK, Australia, Japan and Western Europe.

If USA wants to destroy China as a power, it can do so without firing a single bullet, but by just not importing from China and asking its allies not to import from China. USA had followed that policy in 1934 against Japan, but it has no intension to follow it against China, because that would undermine investments of large number of American companies and their profit. China can also retaliate against USA just by selling its Dollar reserve, which would mean a massive devaluation of the US Dollar and destruction of the special status of the US Dollar as the international reserve currency - a fiat money by which USA can buy anything from the rest of the world just by printing its own currency. There is no need for the US to earn foreign exchange to pay for its imports or to pay for the American military bases all over the world in any other currency but in US Dollar.
This unique position would be diminished if China suddenly exchanges its Dollar holdings into Euro. That can destroy the American economy, as USA would not be able to use Dollar to get its imports. USA would be unable to pay for the expenses of the American military bases as well thus, reducing the US to a regional power, not a world power. Close bilateral relationship through trade and investments has made USA and China indispensable to each other.

Because of these threats to the American Dollar and the America"s special status as a super-power, USA is reluctant even to recognize Taiwan as a separate country, but still insisting upon the "one-China" policy, which basically approves Chinese colonialism over Taiwan. USA also has no policy towards Tibet, which was colonized by China in 1949. President Clinton has declared China as the strategic partner of USA. President Bush recently joined hands with China to oppose India"s possible membership of the UN Security Council. However, in 1972, President Nixon had no objection against China"s membership of the UN Security Council. USA even had forced the expulsion of Taiwan from the U.N to make room for China.

That was the reason when India has declared after the nuclear tests in 1998 that China is the enemy number one for India, it has cut no ice in USA. President Clinton still has imposed sanctions against India and India was isolated in the world temporarily. President Bush has forced India to start the peace-process with Pakistan, who has already killed more than 50,000 people in the Jammu & Kashmir and has managed to spread terrorism throughout India. USA also forced India to abandon its development of long-range missiles and any further nuclear testing. As a result, India has no credible nuclear forces and is in no match for China. This situation will not change in future in favour of India, as USA does not want India to have either nuclear weapons or missiles.

USA is not offering India any advanced weapons system or aircrafts. The F-16 aircraft, which USA has offered India is equivalent to Russian Mig-29, which India already got about ten years ago and is under production in HAL factories in India. USA is delivering same aircrafts to Pakistan and to a large number of other countries, as it wants to dispose of old aircrafts. A pure business deal from which USA not India will gain substantially is repackaged by the media as the friendly gesture of the United States to India.

Does India have credible nuclear force:

A credible nuclear force should be able to withstand the first strike by its adversary. It also should be able to carry our retaliatory nuclear strike against the enemy. When Indian"s nuclear delivery system depends only on the aircrafts, as India"s missiles are not fitted with nuclear weapons, India has doubtful capacity to strike back against Pakistan and has no capacity at all against China. Against China, India has Russian Tupolev-95 strategic bomber with 6000km range, but it is doubtful whether they can penetrate Chinese defense. India"s Agni-2 has a range of 2200km, thus it cannot reach most parts of China.

India needs to develop immediately a missile with 5000km range, which can strike China effectively; however, that is not possible due to the pressure from the U.S. The development of Agni-3 is delayed by more than ten years by now due to the objections from the U.S. With the Chinese mobile missile system, the best option for India to have nuclear powered submarine which can go close to China"s coast. Although it was offered by Russia a few years ago, India has opted for old French submarines, which are of no help in this matter.

China has a formidable nuclear force. It has deployed some 125 long range (1700km or more) nuclear armed ballistic missiles, It has developed DF-31 ballistic missiles with a range of 8000 km, which can hit any parts of India from anywhere in China. Other missiles in the armory of China include CSS-2, CSS-3, and CSS-5 of 1700km range, which also can hit India from Tibet. However, China has decided to use Pakistan against India, by supplying whatever China has. Thus, Pakistan is now more powerful in nuclear weapons delivery system than India can be in near future.

For India, aircrafts are the only available delivery system for nuclear weapons. Russian Sukhoy-30 and MIG-29 with a range up to 1400km, French Jaguar with a similar range, Russian MIG-27 with a slightly reduced range are the possible options for India. None of these can be useful against China. Whether they can penetrate Pakistan"s defense is a big question, because by the time India will be able to react after the first strike by Pakistan, India"s airfields and the aircrafts will be wiped out.

Pakistan"s M-11 missiles obtained from China are mobile missiles although these have short ranges of 300km. "No-Dong" missiles obtained from North Korea with the approval of China has 1500km range. This can cover most important parts of India. Pakistan has no need, unlike that of India, to conduct any tests to maintain its nuclear weapons, as it can obtain these whenever required from China. China does not bother to obey the Non-Proliferation Treaty; it has already supplied Chasma nuclear plant to Pakistan.

India"s position on nuclear plants:

For India, even the supply of adequate amounts of nuclear materials for weapons development is in doubt. The proposed new reactors in Kudankulam cannot be built by Russia anymore because of American objections. In Kudankulam Russia already built two reactors and provided low interest loans of $1.5 billion. Russia has resumed supplies of low-enriched nuclear fuel for Tarapur plant, originally built by USA, but abandoned after 1974. USA is now objecting to that supplies too. The realistic option for India is too wait for the completion in 2010 of Kalapakkam Fast Breeder Reactor, built by Russia to provide India enriched uranium for the nuclear weapons. However, that route also can be closed by USA who is increasing pressure on Russia through the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) of 44 nations. Unless India will abandon its nuclear weapons, it cannot be a member of the NSG either. To override the objections of the NSG, Russia has offered India a floating nuclear reactor, which can be placed near India"s shore. However, India is so far reluctant to accept it, as it would certainly annoy USA.

The Possible Role of India:

The reality is that by accepting American pseudo-friendship India is becoming weaker than even Pakistan, who has long-range missiles fitted with nuclear weapons imported from China and can be used against India at any time. As Pakistan has the policy of "first strike" with nuclear weapons, as obvious from the preparations of General Musharaf during the Kargil invasion of 1999, it is doubtful whether India, without the support of the Soviet Union as it had during both 1965 and 1971 wars, can withstand the first nuclear strike by Pakistan. The most likely scenario is that India will collapse, which would open the door for invasions by Pakistan, China, and Nepal.

India"s policy makers may have thought about this possibility, which has provoked them to surrender so easily to the American demand to accept the control of the IAEA on the nuclear facilities in India. USA wants India to be reduced to the level of the Philippines, Thailand, Kenya, or Egypt, whereby India would receive American political backings, some economic co-operations and foreign aid but it would not have any power of any significance but would be dependent upon the American goodwill.

The process of surrender has started in Jammu & Kashmir where India is gradually willing to surrender the sovereignty over Jammu & Kashmir for a joint administration or regional autonomy or open border with demilitarization of the region. The nuclear co-operation with USA would start the second phase of surrender to abolish nuclear weapons in India, but Pakistan, as an ally of both NATO and China, would still have nuclear weapons. It is unfortunate that the Indian media and the so-called experts of foreign policy cannot see the reality but have decided to live in a fool"s paradise.

Dr.Dipak Basu
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by NRao »

If I am alive 20 years from now and if we are in touch, I would be willing to bet you on this. India is not going to do that.
Nah. Not 20 years. It should be amply clear by 2012 or at the most 2014. Civilian FBRs should come on-line by 2020. Of course, the dreaded IST could influence these dates.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Singha »

A Bush in the hand is worth a megaton of thorium on the beach ...

totally agree sire but not in the way you meant :twisted:
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Anujan »

shiv wrote:
NRao wrote:
The more I think about it the US will not allow India to use FBRs. I fully expect Indian scicom to validate the findings of Japan, etc - that FBR is not a financially viable option.
If I am alive 20 years from now and if we are in touch, I would be willing to bet you on this. India is not going to do that.

Only we need to wait and watch - 20 years seems like a good interval to assess progress. By the same token - I will be unable to accept what you say until I have seen what happens for 20 years. India has already started the process and everyone tells me that India has developed tech that others have not bothered about. I see it as hardly likely that India will throw it away.
I agree with Shiv-saar. N-rao-saar, there are costs and contexts. Let us imagine that SDREs have no technologies that will make FBR cheap and run them at around the same costs that the Japaneese did. Are FBRs financially viable ?

Financially viable in what context ? When oil was below $30 ? Oil is not romancing with $150 now. Cost of uranium has tripled over the past five years. Was the cost of waste disposal in conventional nuclear plants taken into account ? Finally if those FBRs participate in our 3-stage program, what fraction of thorium are we going to burn ? Given that we have the thorium, are FBRs viable ?

It is hard to know unless we carry out a SDRE specific study about this.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Gerard »

Middle Kingdom is in the sights of My Henry (what is with all these Henry guys?) Gyde.
The Chinese must be relieved now that he is dead.

Unless he is capable of Chicom CRE from beyond the grave... the Henry Zombie Hyde Chinese Nuclear Act?
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Gerard »

Now I feel that ICBMs are not just GOING to be obsolete, they BECAME obsolete in the mid-90s
After all the SDI research on beam weapons, the current NMD uses plain old rockets... note the interceptors they plan to base in Alaska. And they acknowledge that an opponent with capability of saturation attack will easily overwhelm those defenses...

The French are building new SLBMs. The Russian and Chinese are building new ICBMs and SLBMs. The British have been forced to join the US Navy's new SLBM program (replacement of Trident).

So none of the people that actually operate ICBM and SLBM fleets think that they are obsolete...
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by jash_p »

US convince Pakistan not to vote against India at IAEA
A week after the letter questioning the deal caused some unease in India and the US, Pakistan today said it does not want to "obstruct" the deal but it should also be considered for such an accord without any "discrimination."

"We don't want to be obstructive," Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi said in London when asked how he perceived the Indo-US nuke deal at the International Institute for Strategic Studies here after delivering a lecture at the think tank.

US Ambassador David C Mulford viewed with "concern" Pakistan's position at the IAEA on India-specific safeguards agreement and said Washington was talking to it and hoped Islamabad will "see things in right light" and "be cooperative".

So even pakis are happy with the deal. TRUST ME this deal is about capping and roll back of Indian nuke, and Pakis were taken in confidence by Unkil and all weather friend.
Conclusion, this is bad deal for India, even Pakis are not making noise.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Arun_S »

jash_p wrote:So pakis are happy with the deal. TRUST ME this deal is about capping and roll back of Indian nuke, and Pakis were taken in confidence by Unkil and all weather friend.
Conclusion, this is bad deal for India, even Pakis are not making noise.
The reasoning is flawed. If you are not convinced of yourself and seek validation by intelligence and action of "2 taka" Paki to make a decision. This makes the setting ripe for the Panchatantra story of the Brahmin carrying the Goat on his head, and the external validation source will psyop you to think its a donkey/deamon that was gifted in dakshina.
Image

I suggest to evaluate the deal on its own merit and using your own perspective. Reaction of external party is ancillary, and not the prime reason.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Katare »

The devil lies in detail but if I leave the devil alone for a while than I can largely three stage program works on following broad principles –

1) It is sequential. Its full potential is realized only if it is truly sequential.
2) Third stage has highest potential which is several orders of magnitude higher than first/second stage
3) Size of third stage ‘potential power generation capacity’ depends on size (total GWe) and time scale (years of operation of second stage before the start of third stage) of second stage. If third stage is started early, even by few years, it shaves of a huge power generation potential from third stage.
4) If second stage is sufficiently large and third stage is not rushed in we would have enough potential to generate power for all our future needs indigenously with thorium. Kakodkar's graph shows third stage in a scenario where it is not rushed in, the potential is off the chart.
5) Size of second stage and time of start of third stage needs adjusting to fully meet changing future power requirement projections. These two changes shrinks or enlarges third stage exponentially.
6) If technologies are available or developed in near future, a hybrid second/third stage (simultanious operation or second and third stage) is possible but as of now it doesn't have good technological support.
7) Its our choice to keep 3 stage program totally independent of imported fuel or use the benefits of imported fuel to maximize third stage potential. Both scenarios are possible and it would be DAE's choice/preference.
8) Kakodkar's presentation shows that DAE is banking on imported fuel (for 40GWe LWRs) to enlarge second stage which would make third stage large enough to make us largely indigeneous and independent as per todays projections for next 50-100 years.
Last edited by Katare on 25 Jul 2008 00:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by ramana »

So the Frontline article is true only in parts? Which ones?
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Katare »

ramana wrote:So the Frontline article is true only in parts? Which ones?
Ramana,

It is a technically sound and good article so as such it is not a question of wrong and right IMO. He picks and chooses 'statements' from presentations/papers presented by scintists and assignes them 'different' motives than what they were intended for. So it is more an issue of trust in DAE/Kakodkar and fear of loosing indigenous program in his part. But the writer has his heart at the right place i.e. protecting interests of India.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Sanjay M »

Gerard wrote:Unkil is going to denuke the middle kingdom? I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale. Cheap.
Well, theoretically, in 30 years China could have tech that surpasses the US, to give them superior conventional forces. So in that case, why wouldn't they want to see everyone nuke-nude?

Then they can truly dominate, based on their large size.
But will everyone else be in agreement by then?
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Katare »

Would that theory that gives China superior conventional technology than US not also work at India?
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by John Snow »

Wow DOO are now predicting the untimely death of weapons of mega death?
All because J18 became 123 then Hyde and "A Thoo" deal?
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by NRao »

lakshmic wrote:
shiv wrote: If I am alive 20 years from now and if we are in touch, I would be willing to bet you on this. India is not going to do that.

Only we need to wait and watch - 20 years seems like a good interval to assess progress. By the same token - I will be unable to accept what you say until I have seen what happens for 20 years. India has already started the process and everyone tells me that India has developed tech that others have not bothered about. I see it as hardly likely that India will throw it away.
I agree with Shiv-saar. N-rao-saar, there are costs and contexts. Let us imagine that SDREs have no technologies that will make FBR cheap and run them at around the same costs that the Japaneese did. Are FBRs financially viable ?
.
Who cares? About financial viability that is. As I have stated before, the issue is non-proliferation.

Here is an example I found posted in another thread (OpEd from Pioneer, posted somewhere by Ramana):
Nuclear dreams of Paris

Francois Gautier

France is pushing the India-US civilian nuclear cooperation agreement hoping it will be able to grab a slice of the multi-billion-dollar nuclear power pie for French firms. But France nurses a deep distrust of India as far as nuclear weapons are concerned

As expressed on television and in newspaper interviews and articles by France's Ambassador to India Jerome Bonnafont, France endorses the controversial India-US nuclear deal "which is said to be good for India". France is, of course, eagerly awaiting its signature so that it can try to sell to India its nuclear technology and maybe one or two nuclear plants. But what France also does not say is that it silently thinks India, unlike the five officially declared nuclear powers, is not a mature and wise enough nation to handle military nuclear technology; and it agrees with the US that India's military nuclear programme should be capped.

For if you read between the lines of the G8 chairman's statement at the end of the three-day summit ("We look forward to working with India, the International Atomic Energy Agency, the Nuclear Suppliers Group and other partners to advance India's non-proliferation commitments and progress") the safeguards agreement will definitely not permit spare parts or fuel -- even in the event of any shortage -- to be transferred between nuclear facilities under IAEA safeguards and those outside it as part of India's weapons programme.

We have also seen that finally, after a much-publicised show of bravado, French President Nicolas Sarkozy has agreed to attend the opening of the Olympic Games in Beijing. Under Chinese pressure, he will also probably not officially meet the Dalai Lama when His Holiness visits France in August. One has to understand the dilemma of the French President: France has invested massively in China and the heads of French businesses have been after him to rectify his attitude after the fiasco of the Olympic flame in France.

Fair enough. But then India should ask four questions to Mr Sarkozy. First, how is it that France is only the seventh largest investor in India, far behind the US, Germany, or even South Korea, when contrary to China, India is a pro-Western democracy, an island of freedom and liberalism in an Asia torn by Islamic fundamentalism (witness the recent bombing of the Indian Embassy in Kabul) and by China's hegemonic tendencies which are felt from Burma to Nepal, from Taiwan to Arunachal Pradesh?

Second, why did France recognise China's sovereignty over Tibet, a nation with an independent culture and religion, more than 10 years ago when it still refuses to accord the same right to India over Jammu & Kashmir, which has been historically and geographically part of India for at least 5,000 years and is the seat of Shaivaism?

Third, New Delhi does not question the fact that Paris feels that Corsica belongs to the territory of France, though it is an island. India does not contest Spanish sovereignty over Basque country, India did not say anything when Britain went to war over the Falklands when it geographically belongs to Argentina. Then why is it that the Western world -- and France -- continues to contest India's sovereignty over Jammu & Kashmir? Like its not trusting India to handle nuclear military technology, it does seem to spring from an unconscious sentiment of superiority.

But then France might very well answer that it understands India's concerns over Jammu & Kashmir, but that it does not want to 'upset' the Indo-Pakistani dialogue (which actually is only on paper, as Pakistan has betrayed every peace move made by India). But in truth, the French are actually falling for the Pakistani nuclear blackmail of an attack on India.

Thus, given the circumstances will it be wrong for India to again ask France as to why the latter continues to sell arms to Pakistan? It might also very well be that France does not want to antagonise part of its volatile Muslim minority, although this seems to be a bit of a fallacious argument.

Yet, Mr Sarkozy is a man of vision and is not afraid to break conventions as he has quite amply shown in his private and public life. If he would make the gesture of recognising India's sovereignty over Jammu & Kashmir, as France did to China over Tibet, it would earn France immense gratitude in India. It would pave the way for greater economic cooperation between the two countries and it would give France a bargaining chip with China which is always blackmailing it by saying it will cancel its Airbus order whenever it is displeased. The moment France diversifies its investments in Asia to include India, China would certainly feel the pinch. Lastly, it would pave the way for a new kind of political and military cooperation between Europe and India and recognise -- at last -- the immense geopolitical importance of India in Asia.

France, its diplomats in India and its Indologists, should do well to come out of their ivory towers if they want to stay in tune with 21st century Asia. They should first accept the diversity of opinion on India and not only see India through the eternal clichés of the 'India specialists' in France who for decades have associated India, in the minds of French people, with poverty, caste, Hindu 'fundamentalists' and 'oppressed' minorities. The French Embassy in Delhi should seek the opinion of those who have lived in India for long and know India well.

And once more the question has to be asked to France: Why don't you recognise Jammu & Kashmir as you recognise Tibet? Then India need not sign a nuclear treaty with the US, which will bind it politically and economically to the Americans. France would be an excellent nuclear, economic and political partner for India and it would help preserve a bipolar world, where Corsica, Tibet and Jammu & Kashmir remain in the fold of their mother nations.
To be continued ............
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by ShauryaT »

Arun_S wrote: But then look at the agreement that 600 lb gorilla negotiated with US? It does not allow import of enriched fissile fuel above a certain enrichment required for FBR operation. That kills the possibility to rampup FBR as the main driving force in a fuel unconstrained scheme to catchup with national deficit.
Neither does the agreement provide for import of enriched fuel, nor does the agreement allow to enrich (in the "state of the art" future enrichment facility, if ever approved and built) to a level that is needed to feed the FBR. So, what is the respectable DAE chief cooking?

Me thinks it is LWR all the way to the glory of the supplier countries, with India capped qualitatively and in quantity, except for "Supreme National Interest" and the permanent strategic reduction of India, at least for my life time. I have thought through and tried to envision scenarios on how we can "manage" even after we sign but all paths lead me to a dead end. The only way out, will be to break out. It does not look good. We or our children will pay for this. (Ofcourse the caveat being that JE Menon is right, the US has realized their mistake and recognized the true potential of India).
Last edited by ShauryaT on 25 Jul 2008 08:22, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by ramana »

NRao, Its interesting when India doesnt horizantally proliferate which means supply others then what is the non-proliferation goals for India unless its to ensure no further vertical proliferation? interesting prespective no?

ShauryaT, All that has happened is to stave of this round and create some space. Its upto future Indians if they want to expand the space or be reciepients of technology and be forever attached to umbilical cord. One thing is there, DAE did not come out well in the big picture. Too many lafadas keep popping out. Atleast DRDO's stuff can be seen six feet in the air and fixed. But these(DAE's) are buried under and no one knows what lies(double meaning) beneath?

They can become fully macaulyized and Westernize Hinduism and calll in the West as their inheritance just as Anglo Saxons claim the Roman legacy. They have the population, the resources and GS tells me the largest pool of IQ but when will they get the confidence?
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Rangudu »

We don't need to import LWRs. We can keep building our own PHWRs of higher and higher output. As long as we put the facilities on the civilian list, we can get all the Uranium we want to power them. We can reprocess the spent fuel and feed it on to a FBR as long as the reprocessing is done in a safeguarded facility and the FBR is also safeguarded.

Where is the problem here? We always knew that a closed cycle is a long-term project. It is in the interest of every country that has nuclear reactors to get a closed cycle so that the world is not stuck with gazillion tons of spent fuel to dump.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by ShauryaT »

Rangudu wrote:We can reprocess the spent fuel and feed it on to a FBR as long as the reprocessing is done in a safeguarded facility and the FBR is also safeguarded.
Nope, the enrichment levels are limited to under 20%, not enough to drive FBR.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by NRao »

R,

There is nothing wrong with what you have posted. I can bet that even Chicom and TSP can live with that.

The problem is with those reactors on the other side of the fence. Chicom and TSP have sleepless nights because of Indian dreams, and, the West has sleepless nights because they do not want to trust India, based on TSPian experience. The cause is different, the effect is the same.

However, in the case of Chicom and TSP it is a matter of many atoms. In the case of the West it is a matter of every atom.

Chicom and TSP are less worried because of MAD. The West is totally worried because of non-state actors acquiring nuclear "weapons" - the total lack of MAD - what can the US do with Khan (a non-state actor of sorts), nothing outside of interrogation. They have not even been able to talk to him!!

In the case of India even a US President stating that India is responsible did not help!

123, IAEA and NSG is not about civilian nuclear energy. It is about locking down FM - world wide. That is the way they plan on achieving denuking.

JMTs.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by NRao »

ShauryaT wrote:
Rangudu wrote:We can reprocess the spent fuel and feed it on to a FBR as long as the reprocessing is done in a safeguarded facility and the FBR is also safeguarded.
Nope, the enrichment levels are limited to under 20%, not enough to drive FBR.
They will have this restriction until most, if not all, reactors are brought under safeguard.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Pulikeshi »

Nice writeup JEM!
JE Menon wrote: For that transition to be made, the primary world power had to take the leading role - and fortunately, it happened to be the US - with whom, contrary to apparently popular derision, we have fundamental systemic affinities.
Perhaps these fundamental systemic affinities are the source of pig-headedness and suspicion on each side.
JE Menon wrote: A close and even inter-twined relationship with the US is inevitable commercially, and therefore, strategically. The benefits must be mutual for them to be sustained.
With the passage of the deal, the inter-dependence of India and the US economically can be given a more solid footing. India needs to be build on providing economic if not political or military incentives for the U.S to work with us in the near term. Whatever the future holds for the superpower status of the U.S., India as an emerging power ought to seek her own goals for the region as well as the world and work with existing powers so long as they are not inimical to India’s interests.

You correctly point to the key to understand this deal – it provides options down the line and accommodates India into a world order where we are one of the “big-boys!” Getting agreement in the NSG to this new reality cannot be done without the blessing of the U.S. There is a gurudakshina we have to pay for such a blessing.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by ramdas »

NRaoji,

Are you claiming that we are denuking via this deal ? Is this an acceptable outcome according to you ? I too feel this deal is CRE. Then why is there very little noise about a sellout ? Do APJAK and AK agree with this denuking agenda ?
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by archan »

ramdas wrote:NRaoji,

Are you claiming that we are denuking via this deal ? Is this an acceptable outcome according to you ? I too feel this deal is CRE. Then why is there very little noise about a sellout ? Do APJAK and AK agree with this denuking agenda ?
I would still like to understand exactly how this de-nuking of Bharat will take place.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by svinayak »

Pulikeshi wrote:Nice writeup JEM!
JE Menon wrote: For that transition to be made, the primary world power had to take the leading role - and fortunately, it happened to be the US - with whom, contrary to apparently popular derision, we have fundamental systemic affinities.
Perhaps these fundamental systemic affinities are the source of pig-headedness and suspicion on each side.
What is not discussed here is that US has invested too much into sociology of Indian soceity and has been involved in the social engineering for a long time.
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