Blasts in Ahmedabad

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 28 Jul 2008 03:46

Tamil news papers are reporting arrest of Abdul Kaffur, detonators and maps have been recovered, Chennai and Kolkata were next on the list. Dinamalar has complete story (I can't read Tamil)

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 28 Jul 2008 04:15

TADA and POTA were enacted by federal govts to empower state govts to combat terrorism. If you look at the data, IIRC, highest number of people were booked under these two laws by govt of UP and Bihar not the govts of Kashmir and North East where terrorism and naxalism was/is thriving. The chief ministers use to threaten opposition politicians that I'll book you under TADA/POTA in those days. Those instruments in current conditions became tools of terror by ruling politicians over others. I am not against TADA/POTA but I want them to be brought and enforced by central govt only under a constitutionally empowered and independent police organization.

I diagree that it was used more in UP and Bihar. It was extensively used in Gujarat and AP.
These laws help the law enforcement agencies in arresting the would be terrorists pre-emptively. These were used in big way in Maharastra as well. They were also used in countering PWG in AP. Without these laws, if the police arrest anyone pre-emptively there will be FOIL types and humanrights types will swing into action. Have you heard of Civil Liberties Rights leader called Kannabhiraman. During 80s, he was Teesta type in rescuing Naxals from jails.

Irrespective of whether it works or not, you need a law to create guantanamo bay style arrests.

Anyhow in today’s scenario if they can't even find a single person behind these attacks what would POTA/TADA do? These laws only help in prosecuting arrested terrorists they can't provide the proactive monitoring and intelligence that is needed on a pan-India scale. If a draconian law is applied by more than two dozen state-govts it would not help but only create problems.

There is a lot of political coverage to the perpetrators. After the recent HYD blasts, when few folks were picked up from old city, wafk minister (Shabbir Ali) worked overtime to get them released. It is the same story everywhere. The situation is even if Narendra Modi is strong, what can he do if the perpetrators stay somewhere in old city of Delhi/Hyderabad?

without POTA type laws the help goes to the following types:
http://www.achrweb.org/Review/2007/154-07.htm
Even as per figures quoted from the website:
128 were filed in Jharkand(maoist infested state). The official numbers of POTA arrests in other states were: 181 in Jammu and Kashmir, 83 in Gujarat, 44 in Delhi, 42 in Maharashtra, 41 in Tamil Nadu, 40 in Andhra Pradesh, 28 in Uttar Pradesh, 6 in Sikkim, and 3 in Himachal Pradesh.

Also the comparison of NDA that most nations have anti-terrorist laws is empty since in those nations those laws are mostly applied by the federal govts not state/local govts. We need to bite the bullet and make states part some of their policing powers to federal govt. A division of power on the lines of USA may be an effective solution. In USA FBI gets involved automatically if it is an interstate crime, Terrorism, international crime, organized crime, kidnapping etc. The powers and role are clearly defined and sovereignty of states are properly defined. In India's case Federal govt can't get involve unless state govt asks it to which is always happens after the crime is committed. Since it is not empowered to fight crimes/terrorism it isn't even equipped to do the same. POTA/TADA without the reform of policing setup would be counter productive.

Also BJP/Congress both are in favor of empowering central govt by bringing an Indian version of FBI and SC mandated police reforms in states but regional parties and most CM's are vehemently opposed to it.

True. BJP tried to bring this and failed becasue of opposition from state governments. Currently UPA started making some noise to get some PR value. Before the FBI type thing comes into picture, India desperately needs POTA/TADA style laws.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 28 Jul 2008 04:28

sunilUpa wrote:Tamil news papers are reporting arrest of Abdul Kaffur, detonators and maps have been recovered, Chennai and Kolkata were next on the list. Dinamalar has complete story (I can't read Tamil)

Terror module busted in Tamil Nadu, 1 held

A man suspected to be a member of a banned organisation was detained on Sunday with a large cache of explosives and two timer devices with plans to blow up several places on the Independence Day, police said.

"Initial interrogation revealed that Sheikh Abdul Ghaffoor, 39, had plans to bomb state capital Chennai and three other cities in Tamil Nadu including the collectorate in Tirunelveli, at least six trains and one beyond the state's borders," a police official said.

"The suspect is said to be working with either a textile or leather showroom in a suburb of the metropolis. There are indications the plot was hatched in a prison cell in the outskirts of Chennai by alleged ringleader P Ali Abdullah, a life convict serving sentences since 2003 and trained in Pakistan before conviction," the official said on condition of anonymity.

Abdullah, involved in at least eight cases and serving multiple sentences, was being questioned inside the prison, officials speaking from Chennai added.

There should be law giving death penalty to those who are convicted of undergoing training etc.. There is no point in keeping them alive. Those who host terrorists, who finance terrorists, give them any kind of logistic support, undergo terrorist training, train/mentor terrorist all of them should be tried in a special court and be handed death penalty.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 28 Jul 2008 04:33

Memo to China, please stand-by, we will be in the superpower race shortly.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 28 Jul 2008 04:37

These cases should be categorized and given to special courts and put judges with big balls there.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Jul 2008 05:02

so the commie angle dying down now since commie states are targets.. or is it, that commie states were well organized to capture the culprits before it got out of their hands, and/or its all pre-arranged. I lost trust with our govt setup and its functioning, hence these bad thoughts.

hey,.. anything is possible. i can't rule out any individual or org who has allowed the explosives to be purchased, and still not monitoring/validating its use?

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 28 Jul 2008 05:28

Central govt might not have ability to get local police to do something (except in few cases when elections are in), but central govt definitely is the only one that can handle international players involved in destroying India's internal security.

Can somebody please find me an example of central govt doing some foreign policy work lately? Please exclude the latest money laundering stunt from DAE called 123. Has somebody who uses my tax money to fly and negotiate everywhere lost any sleep?

Gujaratis are better off setting a some kind of example against central govt and taking some foreign policy actions themselves. If small Israel can do stuff, then why not the state of Gujarat? To start, they can stop contributing Gujarati taxpayers money going to central govt and use it to set up Gujarat's own functional govt entities. No security no money, it should be as simple as that. Let's see if the rest of India can handle the loss of Gujarat.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 28 Jul 2008 05:32

Times of India

Kerala next, claims Indian Mujahideen

BANGALORE: A day after serial blasts in Bangalore, a caller, claiming to be from Indian Mujahideen, called a local television channel threatening that Kerala would be their next target.

The caller, using internet service, made the call on Saturday and spoke to a reporter of the channel in Hindi. "Yesterday, it was Bangalore, today it's Ahmedabad and tomorrow, it will be Kerala," he said.

The call was made an hour after the blasts in Ahmedabad and the caller had tried three different numbers of the channel. The first was made to a news reader, who failed to pick up the call. The second was made to the response section, and wasn't answered as the line was busy. The third call to the reporter was made 8.30 pm.

But isn't Kerala commie-ruled? Why would a real jihadi organization attack them?

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 28 Jul 2008 05:38

Plan for 'mega city policing' put on fast track

NEW DELHI: Back-to-back terror attacks on Bangalore and Ahmedabad in the past two days has injected a sense of urgency in the government's plan to roll out its 'Mega City Policing' guidelines.

The idea - which centres around exclusive city-specific policing plan with a separate budget - is aimed at providing helicopters, sophisticated gadgets and aerial surveillance equipment to police in seven big cities.

The plan had a limited launch in 2005 and the identified cities - Ahmedabad, Bangalore, Mumbai, Chennai, Kolkata, Hyderabad and Delhi - were given some money to modernise their police forces.

Five of these cities - Delhi, Mumbai, Hyderabad, Bangalore and Ahmedabad - witnessed big terror attacks in the past couple of years.

At a high-level meeting chaired by home minister Shivraj Patil on Sunday, it was decided to finalise the modalities of the plan at the earliest.

Patil is learnt to have asked home secretary Madhukar Gupta to call a meeting of the committee finalizing the policing plan after consulting the states. Currently, the plan is being implemented with piecemeal allocation of funds to different cities for modernization.

"Once the modalities are finalised, these seven cities will have a separate exclusive plan and budegetary allocation for policing. Besides improving the standard of day-to-day policing, the plan will also help these cities strengthen their intelligence gathering capabilities," a senior home ministry official said.

The plan will be finalised keeping in mind specific characteristics of the seven cities.

"The anonymity afforded by lifestyles of mega-cities and the ease with which illegal immigrants can mingle with the local population has to be plugged by taking appropriate steps to contain their potential for mischief and unlawful activities. This needs special plans for each big city that has been facing terror threats," the official said.

After the plan is implemented in the seven mega cities, Jaipur, Bhopal, Chandigarh, Lucknow and Kanpur will also be brought within its ambit.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 28 Jul 2008 05:41

Hopefully they implement this not just in NCR but in other big metropolis as well.

Originally posted by Zenith Suv in SSCI forums

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Jul 2008 05:50

for mega cities, another tech point assist is needed.. a cheapo RFID tags for all vehicles (including cycles, rickshaws, kid vehicles, and bullocks, tags, or license plates, perhaps even a smarted DL with these trackeable RFIDs. cell phones anyways, can be tracked.

not to be misused against by private companies to track where their vehicle or men are currently work, etc.. but, as a well info setup, of when what things moved, and happened data.

I hope nanobots could be really researched into for these uses in the future.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 28 Jul 2008 06:17

OK, atlast some intelligence reports are coming out. No left involvement here and it is pure form of Islam that is suspicious here.

Experts see Wahabis in garb of Indian Mujahideen

MUMBAI: The intelligence community believes the serial blasts of Bangalore and Ahmedabad were executed by a network of Wahabi fundamentalists masquerading as Indian Mujahideen.

This terror network started by organizing blasts at holy places of rival Barelvi Muslims like the dargah of Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti in Ajmer, Rajasthan. Over the past five years the Wahabis, who are heavily funded by religious puritans in Saudi Arabia, have been conducting a high-intensity propaganda war within the Muslim community against so-called un-Islamic practices.

Thousands of publications have been brought out by them to convince Muslims to follow the path of "true Islam". Members of several front organizations also visit homes to convince people to abandon "non-Islamic rituals".

Sources said predictably these activities have been vehemently opposed by the Barelvis who also brought out publications countering the Wahabi ideology, which is believed to provide a theological justification for terror.

A Barelvi publication titled ‘Gair Mokallidon ke Akeede’ quotes chapter and verse from Wahabi publications, which are against Islam. In Mumbai maulanas like Saeed Noori have been in the forefront of the campaign to counter Wahabism.

The proverbial last straw was the blast at Ajmer sharif. It provoked widespread reaction among the Barelvis against Wahabi fanaticism, which had backed the Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), police sources said.

"Fearing their isolation, the Wahabi elements are now trying to project themselves as people fighting against injustice to Muslims as a whole. The decision to organize serial blasts in Ahmedabad, including four in Narendra Modi’s constituency, was clearly aimed at getting the sympathy of the Muslim masses," a senior intelligence official observed.

"There is a big vacuum in Muslim leadership and the Wahabis are planning to fill the gap with their violent deeds, he added. However, a majority of Muslims have condemned the blasts and they say that a "big injustice" is being done to the community by those sponsoring such terror strikes.

National secretary of the Nationalist Congress Party and noted advocate Majeed Memon said: "The blasts can have no place in Islam. But if the Indian Mujahideens have any grievance then it should appoint a committee to have a dialogue with the government.

Meanwhile, the Intelligence Bureau is reported to be close on the heels of the mastermind behind the blasts in Bangalore and Ahmedabad. The bureau is convinced that Indian Mujahideen has been trained by the ISI, which was why the blasts could be executed with professional precision.

It is feared that the next targets could be in Maharashtra where the police force is at its demoralised worst.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Jul 2008 06:27

Muppalla wrote:
sunilUpa wrote: Yes, That's what I heard from my friends and relatives. The hospital bombs took terrible toll.
This is scary. Potential starting point for riots. I hope there is a blanket security cover in all the sensitive areas.

All riots have one or more of the following rumors every time. Studies of riots ALWAYS throw up these rumors:

Pigs head in mosque/Msulim pissing on idol
Women raped
Pregnant woman belly ripped open
Death toll much muuuuuuch higher - administration lying
Police in uniform joining rioters

Studies have also been done about which of these rumor is common among men, and which among women.

India is too backward a country for these studies to be published and discussed openly because their findings are not always to the liking of one party or another. So - like medicine in India where doctors rarely take pains to correct myths because nobody wants to believe them while doctors do their duty as per their training, these studies too are ignored by the population.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 28 Jul 2008 07:02

Dated news. Good reminder regarding POTA and other similar laws and politics around them.

No politics now, give us our law: Raje to Sonia

Jaipur, May 15: On the eve of Congress president Sonia Gandhi’s visit to Jaipur to meet victims of the serial bomb blasts, Rajasthan Chief Minister Vasundhara Raje questioned the purpose of the visit, saying if Gandhi wanted to make a “political point”, this was not the time.
“What’s the point? If you are coming to make a political point, it’s not the time. If she is coming to bring something for the aggrieved people, we all welcome her. Until you start changing the way you deal with us (states), how can you help us by coming here? If the UPA had re-introduced POTA or if we had got the RCOCA (Rajasthan Control of Organised Crime Bill which is pending with the Centre), may be, we would not have it (the blasts),” Vasundhara Raje told The Indian Express on Wednesday evening.

When Gandhi visited the state during the floods last year, Rajasthan demanded Rs 3,200 crore. “We got nothing. The state government bore the entire expenses of rehabilitation and compensation,” said Vasundhara Raje. Earlier, Sonia had gone to Banswara but people got “nothing” from it.

“When I go somewhere, I want to see the problems of people and try to solve them. Otherwise, what’s point of going there?” the CM said.

Miffed by the Centre’s perceived attempt to play politics over the blasts, she demanded a meeting of all Chief Ministers to discuss internal security. She was particularly perturbed about Minister of State for Home Sriprakash Jaiswal’s comment immediately after the blasts that the Centre had given intelligence inputs about a terror threat to the state.

“How could we ignore this attempt to play politics at such tragic times? What intelligence inputs do they send? It comes every month or every quarterly and the contents remain the same — never specific, just general. They never say whether there could be a terror strike in three days or even three months. They never say where it could happen or when. Their intelligence inputs are like weather reports. Why can’t we have a meeting of all CMs to discuss and find ways to work together?” Vasundhara Raje said.

Citing a string of recent terror strikes in different states, she emphasised the need for the Centre and the states to come together and share intelligence. Recalling that the RCOCA Bill has been pending with the Centre for two years which also refused to re-introduce POTA, she said the states needed something to deal with terror with an “iron hand”.

“If the Centre had no problem with similar laws in Maharashtra and Himachal Pradesh, why not Rajasthan and Gujarat? You have to give a level-playing field, especially because Rajasthan and Gujarat have not witnessed such incidents in the past,” she said.
The CM was confident that the terror strikes would not impact tourism in the state. “What happened to Mumbai? Did people stop going there? What happened to New York? Have people stopped going there? There won’t be any impact here as well,” said Vasundhara Raje, asserting that she will take strong steps to crush terror threats.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 28 Jul 2008 07:04

Someone already noted the folloing chronology. Worth re-iterating:

1) MMS/Sonia win trust vote thereby passing the nuke deal with Unkil.
2) Next day Unkil gifts huge cache of F-solas to TSP. No statement of outrage from MMS/Sonia or for that matter even BJP.
3) Next day Bangalore is attacked. BJP govt state.
4) Next day Ahemdabad gets attacked. BJP govt in state.

Lets see what are possible motives beind this attack:

There is no doubt that had 2,3,4 taken place prior to the vote, MMS/Sonia would have been toast. Any disagreeements on this?

Thus, whoever planned this had a political motive: make BJP look bad, but not harm MMS/Sonia's political fortunes. Please not I am not for a second suggesting that MMS/Sonia had any role in this. But what I am saying is that the planners of these attacks clearly know India's politcal fault lines. They put India on notice without harming MMS/Sonia. So these atacks had an element of masterly planning behind tthem. Any guesses besides ISI?

Of course, in any other democracy, an attack on that country unites the entire country irrespective of the party in power. But sadly in India's case, its open season to make hay. In subsequent days, Gujarat riots will be center stage as the cause. And the shrill reasoning will be that if not for the rise of "Hindu extremism" and "venal" BJP/RSS/VHP, these attacks would not have taken place. Thus, India's repsonse ought to be more 'secularism' and 'peace process' with TSP is irreversible. (Sorry to make you throw up but this is the reality).

Have MMS/Sonia made any statement yet regarding these attacks?

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 28 Jul 2008 07:07

They condemned the blasts and are visiting A'bad on Monday.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 28 Jul 2008 07:20

Ahmedabad crime branch nabbed a big pig who was hiding - Abdul Halim.

- a WANTED in Gujarat riots case.
- A wahabbism supporter.
- a SIMI activist.

- "Halim was wanted by the cops for enticing disgruntled youths from the riot victims' refugee camps in and around Ahmedabad and taking them to Uttar Pradesh."

- "From there an organised network was engaged in sending these youths across the border for training purpose and Halim was a part of this network."

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Jul 2008 07:25

CRamS wrote:Someone already noted the folloing chronology. Worth re-iterating:

1) MMS/Sonia win trust vote thereby passing the nuke deal with Unkil.
2) Next day Unkil gifts huge cache of F-solas to TSP. No statement of outrage from MMS/Sonia or for that matter even BJP.
3) Next day Bangalore is attacked. BJP govt state.
4) Next day Ahemdabad gets attacked. BJP govt in state.

Lets see what are possible motives beind this attack:

There is no doubt that had 2,3,4 taken place prior to the vote, MMS/Sonia would have been toast. Any disagreeements on this?

I normally place my pillow on the North end of my bed. One one night in 2005 I placed the pillow on the South end. That night there was a massive earthquake in Kashmir and the Paki army took a beating in PoK

There is no doubt that if I had placed my pillow on the South end in 1999 - Kargil and 9-11 the Paki army would have been toast and Kargil and 9-11 would not have taken place. There can be no disagreement about this.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 28 Jul 2008 07:33

Tv News - "This wahhabism group belongs to Saudi Arabia and this is same group which played a role in founding LeT in pakistan."

This dangerous philosophy is coming from Saudi arabia. This has been known actually among public but not spoken in media. This is first time I am seeing such report on a news channel.

People like Abdul Halim are our targets, who misguide IMs youths. If we tackle these abdul Halim and their masters, that will be enough. IMs are not our targets.

Shivani · Post by **Shivani** » 28 Jul 2008 07:36

Sumeet wrote:Hopefully they implement this not just in NCR but in other big metropolis as well.

CCTVs sound like a good idea until you realize that they need electricity to function. Since most parts of the country have no gurantees of electrical availability at any given time, this will put large holes in gathered data. How is the control centre supposed to know that if a certain CCTV went offline it was a power cut or sabotage?

Also, CCTV can at best give you some data after you are able to identify a suspicious person or activity on screen. One low resolution camera mounted high will not give any useful information. To get meaningful data you'll need tens of thousand of CCTVs per city, ability to store all that data for at least a fortnight and process it quickly when needed.

CCTVs can also be foiled easily, and do not provide any deterence or protection against suicidal attacks. It is also not possible to monitor thousands of CCTVs 24 X 7 in real time.

Installing a few CCTVs in VIP or 'sensitive' areas will only add to the charade of security. There's more likelyhood that the data collected will lead to loss of privacy and end up on youtube for entertainment rather than any protection from terrorists.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 28 Jul 2008 07:40

CCTV do provide valuable clues, useful in piecing together the trail after the event.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 28 Jul 2008 07:41

10 Ways to Fight Terror -- Hindustan Times

Thousands of people across Indian cities would have skipped birthdays and dinners and long-delayed shopping trips on Sunday because of fears of terror attacks.

Terrorism is no more a faraway blip on the radar in conflict areas. It is thumping at the doorsteps of cities that never had any experience of such bombings -- from Lucknow to Varanasi to Jaipur to Bangalore to Ahmedabad. India has entered the era of Easy Terrorism; bombs can be made for as little as Rs 25 in a few minutes.

We suggest ten steps that India should take to take the battle against terror from rhetoric to impact:

Create a network of surveillance cameras:
Britain successfully fought terrorism with them. And they do not cost a bomb. A good quality four-camera system that will pan and take images from all directions for up to 60 feet costs just Rs 11,500.

Five thousands such cameras in New Delhi would cost Rs 57.5 crores. That is worth a single big Bollywood movie – that is the amount Saawariya and Jodha Akbar reportedly earned at the box office.

They will be a deterrent not just against terrorists, but traffic violators, eve-teasers, chain-snatchers and killer drivers. And for places like railway stations and bus terminals, the same cameras will see in darkness as well – for Rs 3,500 more.

"There is no demand of cameras for public safety. People think they are only for spying," Ahmedabad-based surveillance equipment seller Mehul Shah said by telephone hours after the serial blasts in the city.

Pump money into forensics:
India 's forensics capability sucks. We do not believe in using science to tackle crime and terrorism, the most effective way worldwide. Apart from some centres of excellence, little attention has been paid to sprucing up our forensics laboratories in the states. In Jharkhand, it was actually running until recently in a cowshed.

Investment in forensics would not just help get crucial leads in terror cases, but help solve other ordinary crimes.

Give more work to the RTO:
Introduce vehicle tracking and identification systems at the time of car registrations across states, with a central database. Make them mandatory fittings; help out carmakers with tax breaks on the equipment. This is very doable.

Shopkeepers as sleuths:
Low intensity bombs, the kind of which used in most recent bombings, were made from fertilizers and materials commonly available in the market. If we can make internet café owners more aware, vigilant and responsible, why not the hardware store guy and the fertilizer seller? This is admittedly a tough task, but some regulation on sales of potentially deadly chemicals, and education of the sellers, could go a long way. Is a person who looks nothing like a farmer or gardener buying ammonium nitrate?

National ID cards:
More than 180 million Indians do not have even voter ID cards after Rs 1,500 crores have been spent on the project for 15 years. The question of a national identity card – once proposed by the BJP government – remained mired in politics.

Across the border in Pakistan , officials have done it seamlessly: The National Database & Registration Authority (NADRA) has issued 60 million ID cards, and is set to issue them to all 150 million eligible Pakistanis. Pakistan ahs also launched multi-biometric E-Passports with sophisticated security features.

National law on terror:
Bring a national law to deal with terrorism. The 2002 Prevention of Terrorist Activities Act (POTA) was being misused in many areas, but what was needed was to fix those problems, not throw out the law altogether.

Create a Department of National Security:
Dealing with terrorism is a state subject, and officers in many states find themselves at sea. A national organization – perhaps modeled after the National Disaster Management Authority -- should be created that deals directly with terrorism and has specialized crack units all over the country, which seek help as and when required from state colleagues.

National database of suspects:
If a terror suspect from Ahmedabad walks out of India through the land border with Pakistan, the security guard at the immigration counter has no way of knowing who he is. Create a national database of suspects connected in real time to the Interpol database.

Bring in the CBI:
State police in India have a conviction rate of 20 per cent – compared to 70 per cent by the CBI. The agency's hands need to be strengthened and terror cases need to be handed right away to the CBI, not after evidence has been ruined, leads have run out and state police cannot do much.

Police the police:
Last – and the most important – infuse life into the beat constable, and do not bog them down with work that has nothing to do with the police force. The beat constable is the person who will first spot the stranger in the neighbourhood, the unclaimed bag and the suspect late night buzz on the third floor – and possibly save lives.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 28 Jul 2008 07:41

CRS,

I want to

at Dr.Shiv's reply to you but I'd rather not given the gravity of this situation. You really need to stop bringing Unkil's actions into everything. Sure, Unkil is involved at a macro level in propping up TSP but in a key way, GoI is as involved in propping up our terrorist neighbors. The F-16s thing was known nearly 5 years ago and what was announced last week was just a change in funding from one US baksheesh account to another. That is why India did not protest because it was not news. The thing about crying wolf is that people will stop taking you seriously after a while.

The one thing that is very disheartening to me is that all sorts of really outlandish conspiracy theories are being floated on BR of all places. The nuclear deal has brought up all our genetically programmed yet dormant psychological disorders to the forefront. We have one group of people who simply cannot stop blaming Unkil or some grand Western conspiracy for everything that goes wrong inside India. We have another who bring in local political parties for some weird reason.

To me, in such circumstances, Occam's Razor is the tool to use. The simplest answer to who is doing this is that TSPA/ISI have been planning this for a long time. They most likely have been successful in gathering up a critical mass of Indian Muslim elements, with several people trained to make bombs and operate in multiple independent cells. The big question therefore is why is this spurt all of a sudden? SSridhar and I, among a few others, agree that this is most likely because TSPA needs another conflagaration with India to both stave off Unkil's pressure, give another pressure release to the jihadis and also unite the establishment within TSP.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 28 Jul 2008 07:53

Muppalla wrote:OK, atlast some intelligence reports are coming out. No left involvement here and it is pure form of Islam that is suspicious here.

Experts see Wahabis in garb of Indian Mujahideen

MUMBAI: The intelligence community believes the serial blasts of Bangalore and Ahmedabad were executed by a network of Wahabi fundamentalists masquerading as Indian Mujahideen.

...

It is feared that the next targets could be in Maharashtra where the police force is at its demoralised worst.

I just happened to catch a few glimpses of the Jaipur blasts warning email on AajTak (an Indian tv channel). Copies of the mail were sent to the police as well as TV channels and foreign news organizations last time around when Jaipur blasts occured. The channel did not show the letter in entirety, probably because it is communally insensitive, but zoomed parts of it.

"Guru-al-hindi aka Indian Mujahideen" is the sender

These are the blasts we are not responsible for and neither is any muslim:

Samjhauta express blasts

Malegaon blasts

Ajmer blasts

the language used in the mail is most curious:

MUDS like Hanuman and crowds milling around temples.

How many Indian Muslims use language like "muds" ??

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Jul 2008 07:54

Rangudu wrote: The one thing that is very disheartening to me is that all sorts of really outlandish conspiracy theories are being floated on BR of all places.

R-man - I would not fight this. It appears to be an common Indian tendency. the culture of basing conclusions on established evidence or provable claims (and honestly stating that a claim may not be provable) does not appear to be a part of Indian culture and Indian rhetoric. Even educated Indians jump to oddball conclusions with no direct cause-effect relationship.

Basing statements on evidence is a layer of knowledge that is imposed on Indians by western education. It does not exist naturally in India in which the methods of getting "evidence" are more in the manner of empirical unproven observation. This is plainly visible in medicine. I regularly see people who have been passing blood via their anus from a cancer or huge piles but continuously ignore warnings in the Indian way by saying:

Last week I had blood because I ate "hot food" brinjal
Yesterday I passed blood only because it was a hot day
Today's blood was beause I travelled a long distance on a bus and everyone knows that causes bleeding

There is ALWAYS an immediate cause that can be used to explain any event, like my pillow position. Part of India's backwardness in health issues (and other issues) is the Indian tendency to pick up any visible or invisible event and connect it with another event to create a cause-effect relationship. the culture of reaching a conclusion beyond reasonable doubt is alien to aam junta and we are all aam junta outside of our chosen area of training.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 28 Jul 2008 07:59

shiv wrote: R-man - I would not fight this. It appears to be an common Indian tendency. the culture of basing conclusions on established evidence or provable claims (and honestly stating that a claim may not be provable) does not appear to be a part of Indian culture and Indian rhetoric. Even educated Indians jump to oddball conclusions with no direct cause-effect relationship.

shiv boss, there are two reasons in my humble opinion why this happens:

1) We have strong civilizational memories and such memories need not necessarily be pleasant ones.

2) The feeling of being in control or being on top of the situation is absent for various reasons-perceived or real.

this is not the case in those countries which have cold calculating folks who base their conclusions on established evidence and who have the luxury of doing so because they are relatively in control of their environments. And population is not scarred by negative civilizational memories.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 28 Jul 2008 08:06

Deleted.

Debate on the appropriate thread. Don't bring in arguments from elsewhere and attack others personally.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 28 Jul 2008 08:09

Deleted.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 28 Jul 2008 08:10

Every Indian is an 'expert' on India .. this is the tragedy.

I yearn to see the Indian who shows some humility and says, "I don't know India". I will wash his/her feet.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Jul 2008 08:10

vishwakarmaa wrote:Tv News - "This wahhabism group belongs to Saudi Arabia and this is same group which played a role in founding LeT in pakistan."

This dangerous philosophy is coming from Saudi arabia.

Of course, wahhabism has to come from Saudi Arabia because it is the birth place of that strain. What is such a big deal about that ?

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 28 Jul 2008 08:14

Muppalla wrote:If we does not like others views then call them as conspiracy theorists. The persons who calls others as conspiracy theorists becomes elderly statesman of the forum.

Nope, conspiracy theorists are those who keep bringing in their favorite villain into any event regardless of the availability of evidence.

There is overwhelming evidence of TSP involvement and also the participation of Indian Muslim elements in the series of blasts. We have a clear documentary trail - ISI's stated goals, the words of LeT leaders and other jihadi thugs, the arrests of SIMI thugs etc.

Now, where is the evidence of F-16s, nuke deal tie ins, China etc? You bring me evidence and you will no longer be called a conspiracy theorist. Note that the "you" here is not referring to you in person but used as a figure of speech.

PS - If you are going to call someone out, at least say it to their face next time. This passive-aggressive stuff only adds to poor communication.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 28 Jul 2008 08:15

shiv wrote:
vishwakarmaa wrote:Tv News - "This wahhabism group belongs to Saudi Arabia and this is same group which played a role in founding LeT in pakistan."

This dangerous philosophy is coming from Saudi arabia. This has been known actually among public but not spoken in media. This is first time I am seeing such report on a news channel.

People like Abdul Halim are our targets, who misguide IMs youths. If we tackle these abdul Halim and their masters, that will be enough. IMs are not our targets.
This is the worst possible cop out!

Indians are involved and we are now shifting the blame for Pakistan/Bangladesh to a country even further out Saudi Arabia.

Chai-biskoot. we will never get rid of terrorism until we understand that Indian Muslims are expressing their frustration in this way. For 61 years india has given them freedom to be islamic and that has only made their development levels lower than the SC/ST who were behind them. Now they want jobs and education and are reacting this way and are even giving the Gujjar example for successful violent agitation.

And what do other Indians do?

Blame Saudi Arabia.

Shiv,

If UPA really accepts that IMs are the culprits then they will have to act. That means they will eat away their muslim votebank. [ Congress/UPA and BJP/NDA have more or less similar foreign policy and economic policies, where they stand out against each other is in the way they portray themselves as well wishers of Indian muslims. If present GoI accepts it they have nothing significant against BJP then. Haven't you seen Jayanti Natarajan yelling in all shows about secular rule v/s communal role.] How will they then make themselves look saintlier than BJP ? How can they swallow their own ego by accepting the fact. If they do so, BJP is automatically seen as having the upper hand from the voter point of view.

And worse is how Indian Muslims became capable of this, for this simply ISI/TSPA is not only to be blamed but deliberate negligence of Congress comes into limelight. That can't be brushed under carpet if a sincere investigation is launched. Consequently, all efforts will be done to shift blame elsewhere so that Congress can sit tight in Delhi and the only way it can deal with foreign culprits is through peace talks and other diplomatic endeavors. This way they don't even disturb their vote source.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 28 Jul 2008 08:16

Deleted.

No ad hominems and insinuations against other posters.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 28 Jul 2008 08:19

Sumeet wrote: If UPA really accepts that IMs are the culprits then they will have to act. That means they will eat away their muslim votebank. [ Congress/UPA and BJP/NDA have more or less similar foreign policy and economic policies, where they stand out against each other is in the way they portray themselves as well wishers of Indian muslims. If present GoI accepts it they have nothing significant against BJP then. Haven't you seen Jayanti Natarajan yelling in all shows about secular rule v/s communal role.] How will they then make themselves look saintlier than BJP ? How can they swallow their own ego by accepting the fact. If they do so, BJP is automatically seen as having the upper hand from the voter point of view.

And worse is how Indian Muslims became capable of this, for this simply ISI/TSPA is not only to be blamed but deliberate negligence of Congress comes into limelight. That can't be brushed under carpet if a sincere investigation is launched. Consequently, all efforts will be done to shift blame elsewhere so that Congress can sit tight in Delhi and the only way it can deal with foreign culprits is through peace talks and other diplomatic endeavors. This way they don't even disturb their vote source.

As per a statesman on this forum this is all bizzare logic. The current set up is angels and they cannot stop this as this pure and simple ISI/TSPA thingy. Nothing more than that. Believe it because he and someone else know everything.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 28 Jul 2008 08:26

Rangudu wrote:There is overwhelming evidence of TSP involvement and also the participation of Indian Muslim elements in the series of blasts. We have a clear documentary trail - ISI's stated goals, the words of LeT leaders and other jihadi thugs, the arrests of SIMI thugs etc.

The current setup (especially as SP(SIMI's open supporters) joined the coalition at center) has a vested interest equivalant to that of TSP involvement for narrow political gains. What is so bizzare in that logic? Similar situation existed during 80s is an alternate view of substantial members.

Rishi · Post by **Rishi** » 28 Jul 2008 08:28

Toll revised: 21 blasts, more than 50 dead

http://www.indianexpress.com/story/341289.html

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 28 Jul 2008 08:31

Muppalla wrote:All you need to do is write couple of articles to a non-India magazine ( a la brown saheb) and you will know 100% of India psyche. After that you can start behaving like an expert and you will get right to call names. If your ego is hurt then you can start a blog of your own like a maverick.

Well you get to call people names without even writing one article, so why not give more rights to people who at least have the motivation to make their stand clear to all under their own name and are prepared to take the potshots that come along?

At least I hope you have the guts to say things to people face to face. BTW, no one here claimed to be a statesman or guru.

Perhaps people like you are the reason why nationalist Indians are relatively less successful in influencing world opinions as compared to the "secularist" crowd. This is because no sooner as someone does not agree with one thing, especially a paranoid conspiracy theory devoid of facts, you will try to pull him down. You won't develop the cojones to put your views in your own name and get it published. But by Golly you'll pull down people who might generally be aligned in thinking but have the audacity to ask you to substantiate what you claim. Great job!

A few months back, my wife told me to reconsider my decision to be active on forums again. I should have listened to her.

I'm done with this forum or any other for a while. You can rant on in peace.

PS - When will you develop the guts to at least address posts to the person you are trashing? Or is it all my imagination that you were targeting me?

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 28 Jul 2008 08:32

Rangudu wrote:CRS,

You really need to stop bringing Unkil's actions into everything. Sure, Unkil is involved at a macro level in propping up TSP but in a key way, GoI is as involved in propping up our terrorist neighbors. The F-16s thing was known nearly 5 years ago and what was announced last week was just a change in funding from one US baksheesh account to another. That is why India did not protest because it was not news. The thing about crying wolf is that people will stop taking you seriously after a while.

Boss, first of all let me commend you on your prescience; you correctly predicted that TSP will create hanky panky after MMS/Sonia won the trust vote thereby making the nuke deal a reality, well almost. Now why did you at that point link impedning TSP terror with nuke deal? Does Shiv's pillow talk aplly to you also? Also, please, for a second don't tell us with a straight face that the timing of Unkils' F-sola decision had nothing nothing to do with trust vote. I mean talk about taking someone seriously, but if you belive that F-sola announcement has absolutely nothing to to with waiting till MMS clinches the deal, then perhaphs I would say you need a reality check saar

.

Pease note that I am no way suggesting that Unkil had any role in the B'lore/Ahemadabad blasts. But I will bet my last penny, that a good # of Unkil's staretgists have no issues, none at all, in fact they are silently appluading, at TSP attacks on India. And the reasons for this are plenty.

The simplest answer to who is doing this is that TSPA/ISI have been planning this for a long time. They most likely have been successful in gathering up a critical mass of Indian Muslim elements, with several people trained to make bombs and operate in multiple independent cells. The big question therefore is why is this spurt all of a sudden? SSridhar and I, among a few others, agree that this is most likely because TSPA needs another conflagaration with India to both stave off Unkil's pressure, give another pressure release to the jihadis and also unite the establishment within TSP.

Plausible explanation. But I repeat, it was you who said immediatly after the UPA trust vote win that TSP will escalate and MMS needs to spend energy countering that. So, even according to you there is a linkage between TSP attacks and nuke deal, unless you have changed your mind.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 28 Jul 2008 08:34

shiv, do you remember in one of the past iterations of the Islamism threads you gave an example of a ghetto 'bhai' (a disaffected IM who's taken to crime). The 'bhai' functioned mainly in the oil droplet but extended his influence to activities outside as and when required. The requirement was mainly put forward by local politicians who needed a hired hand but couldn't hire folks from his community and needed dispensible types.

FF to the present, and reconnect to what's happening today.

We are extrapolating muslim behaviour with the disease that is mainly political and is concentrated among certain elements in IM society who are tarred with criminal association with political entities. This association is barring police from probing into terrorist acts further, since now terror is being planned and implemented at local level as per general enquiries in bangalore and ahmedabad blasts and no probe is resulting in any conclusive evidence or isolation of the masterminds. What is our chance of success with such extrapolation for our present problems ?

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 28 Jul 2008 08:38

Rangudu wrote:
Muppalla wrote:If we does not like others views then call them as conspiracy theorists. The persons who calls others as conspiracy theorists becomes elderly statesman of the forum.
Nope, conspiracy theorists are those who keep bringing in their favorite villain into any event regardless of the availability of evidence.

There is overwhelming evidence of TSP involvement and also the participation of Indian Muslim elements in the series of blasts. We have a clear documentary trail - ISI's stated goals, the words of LeT leaders and other jihadi thugs, the arrests of SIMI thugs etc.

Now, where is the evidence of F-16s, nuke deal tie ins, China etc? You bring me evidence and you will no longer be called a conspiracy theorist. Note that the "you" here is not referring to you in person but used as a figure of speech.

PS - If you are going to call someone out, at least say it to their face next time. This passive-aggressive stuff only adds to poor communication.

Identifying conspiracy is the prerogative of the accuser.

Once accused the defendent has little or no chance of proving his case. This has been the record until now.

If the media identifies someone as a 'conspiracy-theorist' then hell hath no fury .. nothing the person does can ever change that.

That the media might have vested interests in tarring the reputation of a person is ignored by the gallery.

So in certain circles identifying communists as perpetrators behind blasts is not 'conspiracy', and identifying 'Pakistan' behind a certain act is not conspiracy.

but the moment one mentions US or CIA hands behind the blasts, it becomes 'conspiracy'.