India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

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vishwakarmaa
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by vishwakarmaa »

NRao wrote:Unrelated to nuclear issue/s, but, the Hyde Act follows to the aeronautical side:

Boeing delaying consultancy for Tejas programme

:shock: :x
This is only beginning. MMS has signed a death warrant.

It takes time to evolve intelligent processes and important deals are never done in such short and hasty way. MMS finalized the terms of deal with USA within 1 year of his coming into power.

This shows how he sidestepped the on-going process initiated by Vajpayee administration and took a short-cut route to fulfill his own motives.
Last edited by Suraj on 05 Aug 2008 04:27, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Enough with this 'MMS did this, ABV did that' please. What part of 'no politics' is so hard to understand ?
Katare
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Katare »

:rotfl:
Amber G.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Amber G. »

Any engineer in the trade of shockwave driven compression will never go for inherently poor design of assembling a spherical body by intentionally introducing metal-air discontinuity at the worst possible place by making slices (I.e. poor design choice is use of any angle different from direction of the radial compression. ANY density discontinuity in plutonium sphere has to be minimized at great cost. The obvious and direct method is thus to partition pit segments where every cut is a diameter cut of the sphere, that passes through center of the sphere).

That is a very poor design. As if there were dreath of challenges for the Indian team in 1970's, this design is like shooting your own foot. A sure recipe for poor performance.
Obviously I don't run into engineers in the trade of shock wave driven compression, so can you please give any reference to back the above up?
enqyoob
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by enqyoob »

Wow! Another archival post. Such brilliant insight!
This is only beginning. MMS has signed a death warrant.

It takes time to evolve intelligent processes and important deals are never done in such short and hasty way. MMS finalized the terms of deal with USA within 1 year of his coming into power.

This shows how he sidestepped the on-going process initiated by Vajpayee administration and took a short-cut route to fulfill his own motives.


One question I have is, if someone is "sidestepping a process initiated by the previous administration", wouldn't they just wait a couple of years for the dust to settle? Here the death-warrant-signer seems to have rushed to DupleeCity WITHIN ONE YEAR (I assume that's considered fast, not slow, since 1,700,000 years would constitute "unhurried") of coming to power. This is very confusing. Also, I am sure that in the past 40 years the Indian nuclear establishment had never paused to think what would constitute an acceptable deal for them, so there is no way they could come up with the general parameters as done in the J18 2005 statement, in less than 1,900,000 years.

This is the sheer quality of insight that one has to come to BRF to get. Tauba! Tauba! Jagan, this is 403% jay-new-whine admiration onlee! No yellow card pls. :eek: One has to be permitted to admire excellence, appidi illaya?
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Gerard »

Japan does not commit support for India-US nuclear deal
Japan's Foreign Minister on Tuesday said Tokyo needed assurance a crucial nuclear accord between India and the United States will strengthen disarmament efforts after key talks here on the issue.
"Japan has been continuously requesting India to join the NPT and ratify the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty. This is something we will not change our position on," Komura said.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Gerard »

amit
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by amit »

Gerard wrote:Sandeep Pandey is in mourning...
India is, no longer the Guru, only a military state
I wonder if Sandeep Pandey reads BRF. The arguments and language sound, so very familiar.

Or is it the other way round?

Sample this from Pandey:
A lot of people didn't understand the hurry that Manmohan Singh was in taking the safeguards agreement to International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) and requesting the United States President to pursue the matter with Nuclear Suppliers' Group.
N^3 may find the bolded part worth archiving. :rotfl:
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Rupesh »

India should sign NPT: Japan
Press Trust of India
New Delhi, August 5, 2008
Japan, a key member of the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG), today was non-committal on whether it would support India's case at the 45-nation grouping even as it asked New Delhi to sign the NPT and CTBT.

After his talks with External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee who sought Japan's support, Foreign Minister Masshiko Koumura said Tokyo understands India's energy needs but wants to be sure that Indo-US nuclear deal will not undermine non-proliferation efforts.

Mukherjee sought to allay the concerns, saying the Indo-US nuclear deal is "limited to peaceful energy programme" and asserted that New Delhi has an impeccable record on the non-proliferation front despite not being a signatory to the NPT.

"We seek cooperation of the international community... We are aware of Japan's sensitivity. In view of that I reiterated our firm commitment to total disarmament and strict adherence to conditions of non-proliferation as enshrined in various treaties," Mukherjee said at a joint press conference with Koumura.

He said though India is not a signatory to NPT or any other pact, India fulfills "all major conditionalities" required for non-proliferation.

Koumura, while noting that Japan is the only one to have suffered an atomic bomb, said his country needs to be sure that the Indo-US nuclear deal is "satisfactory" in the sense that it will further strengthen disarmament and not undermine it.

He said Japan would "join the discussions which will be held in future", apparently referring to the August 21-22 meeting of NSG to consider waiver for India.

http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index ... ectionid=4
Philip
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Philip »

Yes we must,but only after true global diarmament has taken place and the US apologises for Hiroshima and Nagasaki!
amit
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by amit »

Rupesh wrote:India should sign NPT: Japan
Press Trust of India
New Delhi, August 5, 2008
Japan, a key member of the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG), today was non-committal on whether it would support India's case at the 45-nation grouping even as it asked New Delhi to sign the NPT and CTBT.
>
>
>
http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index ... ectionid=4
Japan has been asking India to sign NPT and CTBT for ages. This PTI report makes it seem that Japan has put this as a condition for support at NSG.

A play with words - or lack of understanding of the change in nuances that different set of words can bring about - can lead to unintentionally misleading reporting.

Take a look at what AFP says:
NEW DELHI (AFP) — Japan's Foreign Minister on Tuesday said Tokyo needed assurance a crucial nuclear accord between India and the United States will strengthen disarmament efforts after key talks here on the issue.

Foreign Minister Masahiko Komura and his Indian counterpart Pranab Mukherjee discussed the pact, which would lift nuclear sanctions against India after it tested atomic weapons.

"We need to confirm that this nuclear cooperation agreement ... will not undermine disarmament efforts," Komura told reporters after the talks.

The Japanese minister also pressed India to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty (NPT).

"Japan has been continuously requesting India to join the NPT and ratify the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty. This is something we will not change our position on," Komura said.

Japan is a key player in the 45-nation Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG), which controls the transfer of nuclear material and needs to approve the India-US deal. Its rules ban trade with states that have not signed the NPT.
The "requesting" bit has been an ongoing exercise and is not being set as a pre-condition. One can't seriously expect Japan to turn around and say, hey you guys don't need to get on the Shitibiti and N(o)PT bandwagon.

Japan has also been requesting India to cut back on greenhouse gas emission. "Requesting" mind you.

In other words Japan is preparing grounds to keep its H&D intact after supporting India at NSG.

See another report, this time by IANS:
New Delhi, Aug 5 (IANS) Backing India’s quest for civilian nuclear cooperation, Japan Tuesday indicated it was likely to back New Delhi in the 45-nation Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG). It also requested India to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty (NPT) and ratify the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT).

“We intend to join the discussions which will be held in future. I understand the significance of the peaceful uses of nuclear energy as it reduces emissions,” Japan’s Foreign Minister Masahiko Koumura said here at a joint press conference with External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee.

“On the other hand we also explained that Japan - being the only country to have suffered atomic bombs - has been helping the world in international efforts towards nuclear disarmament,” he said after concluding the second India-Japan strategic dialogue here.
p_saggu
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by p_saggu »

Oops wrong thread.
Last edited by p_saggu on 05 Aug 2008 19:03, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Prabu »

News from a Tamil daily Dina Malar. The US nuke deal is posted for 8th September 2008 and will be taken up in US congress for discussion, as NSG clearance is expected before that according to the Acting US State Department Spokesman Gonzalo Gonzales, in Washington on Tuesday.
Last edited by Prabu on 05 Aug 2008 19:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Prabu »

N-deal in US Congress on September 8?

"But now that the IAEA has voted, we're going to look to discuss this issue with the members of the Nuclear Suppliers Group. We're hoping to get a positive result out of that some time in the next month," Gonzales said.

"And then, hopefully, we'll be able to represent this to Congress on September 8," he added in a reference to the date lawmakers are returning for their session after the summer recess period.
NSG Result only some time next month ??? The NSG is meeting on 21 & 22nd of August !
Is this an indication that uncle will stretch the NSG clearance till Septemebr 1st week ? :eek:
Last edited by Prabu on 05 Aug 2008 19:28, edited 1 time in total.
NRao
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by NRao »

The storm in a Japanese tea cup, before the calm?

Also, noted that no new news in past the 24 hours, outside of cut-and-paste. So, end game has commenced and it is a done deal, in spite of Japanese noise.

I wonder if this was timed with the Olympics. Chicom has been unusually silent on all fronts!!!
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by amit »

Prabu wrote:N-deal in US Congress on September 8?

"But now that the IAEA has voted, we're going to look to discuss this issue with the members of the Nuclear Suppliers Group. We're hoping to get a positive result out of that some time in the next month," Gonzales said.

"And then, hopefully, we'll be able to represent this to Congress on September 8," he added in a reference to the date lawmakers are returning for their session after the summer recess period.
NSG Result only some time next month ??? The NSG is meeting on 21 & 22nd of August !
Is this an indication that uncle will stretch the NSG clearance till Septemebr 1st week ? :eek:
Not necessarily.

You got to remember that the US Congress can't take up the deal the moment NSG waiver (of course it remains to be seen if that comes through - let's not count our chickens b4 they hatch) comes through.

It has its procedures and protocols. In fact I'd venture to guess that if the US Congress takes up the deal at such an early date (assuming that the NSG waiver occurs in late August) it shows that Bush wants to ensure he gets to sign the deal.

It could also be an effort to ensure that US companies are not disadvantaged vis a vis French and Russian ones.

JMT
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by sivab »

http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.ns ... enDocument
US asks India not to talk of unconditional waiver from NSG

New Delhi, Aug 5 (PTI) The US today asked India not to talk about "unconditional" waiver from Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) as it was "provocative" ahead of the meeting of the 45-nation grouping.
In a telephonic press conference from the US, US Ambassador to India David Mulford said usage of the term "unconditional" was "over simplification" of issues considering that the issue related to the NSG.

He noted that the US was seeking "clean exemption" from the NSG and was not using the word "unconditional" because there are "many moving parts" in the process, including the Separation Plan, 123 agreement and India-IAEA Safeguards Agreement.

"It is somewhat a provocative word to be used," Mulford said while specifying that it was his "personal view" as it could create difficulties in the process.

"We are hoping for, I use the word, clean exemption. We hope NSG will recognise and accept the moving pieces -- the (123) agreement, change of (US) law and so on and gives approval to this," the Ambassador said. PTI
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by sivab »

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/holnus/00 ... 051759.htm
India presses for clean waiver at NSG

Mumbai (PTI): Pressing for a "clean" and "unconditonal" waiver from the NSG to take the Indo-US nuclear deal forward, India on Tuesday said it does not expect any new conditions since that would nullify the safeguards pact cleared by the IAEA.

New Delhi also said its export control requirements has already been harmonised in tune with the guidelines of the the 45-nation Nuclear Safeguards Group (NSG) whose clearance will help the country resume nuclear commerce ending the over three decade nuclear isolation.

"We have already harmonised our export control requirements with that of Nuclear Suppliers Group," Atomic Energy Chairman Anil Kakodkar told PTI today, ahead of the NSG's special meeting scheduled on August 21 that will take a call on the nuke deal.

"Conditions(new) will only take away from one hand what has been given from the other (consensus at IAEA on India specific safeguards agreement on August 1)," he said.

"All we want is a clean and unconditional exemption from the Nuclear Suppliers Group," he said.

NSG guidelines require comprehensive safeguards (applicable only to NPT countries), and since India has both civil and military programmes, we have a unique position. Therefore, such comprehensive safeguards are not relevant to India. Hence, clean exemption from that is what we are seeking," Kakodkar said.

"They should exempt India from the requirement of comprehensive safeguards and add no other conditions," he added.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by enqyoob »

It is provocative

Did Mullah Mulsford HAVE to say this? Now every Energizer Bunny from here to Nai Dilli will be yelling:
UNCONDEESHUNNAL!
even as they sign on th BRF without reading all the Terms and Conditions.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Arun_S »

Philip wrote:Yes we must,but only after true global diarmament has taken place and the US apologises for Hiroshima and Nagasaki!
Philip saar: Very true.
Whatever pressure point Japanese foreign policy is driven from, in my interaction w/Japanese people, I know that they are not the people who forget history (and that is good and worthy of emulation).

Having said that, Japanese people don't say that overtly but they know that it was Indian Army that broke the back of Japanese army leading to its collapse and surrender in WW-II. They don't talk of that openly because that will be taken as revival of old Japan militarist expansionism, shame, and to be compatible with terms of surrender that is the foundation to the current political setup there. So there is confluence of two driving forces that shape their policy w.r.t nuclear India. Viz Defeat of militarist Japan by Indian Army in WW-II and being victim of American nuke attack thereafter being a champion of nuclear disarmament.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Arun_S »

narayanan wrote:
It is provocative

Did Mullah Mulsford HAVE to say this? Now every Energizer Bunny from here to Nai Dilli will be yelling:
UNCONDEESHUNNAL!
even as they sign on th BRF without reading all the Terms and Conditions.
narayanan saar: In the first place did Mullah Mulsford HAVE to say No-Unconditional, that invited Shri Anil Kakodkar to bluntly read him the riot act?
IMHO Anil Kakodkar intimately knows the Terms and Conditions.

As I said before about that statement by Anil Kakodkar:
Arun_S wrote:
I am glad Anil Kakodkar has put this on record in this press interview, this is very important for India. Will believe it when the full NSG document is made public. I have seen too many near misses (as the food moves from hand to mouth) in this India-US Nuclear deal, to take anyone's words as sacrosanct/immutable final truth.

That should put US spin-miesters on the spot they deserve.
So spin miester Mullah Mulsford can stew in his own broth now. Why so much anguish?
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Arun_S »

SAAG Paper no. 2798 05-Aug.-2008
Nuclear Deal: Battle Won, War Begins - What will be China's Role?
By Bhaskar Roy

India won the battle at the IAEA with the Board of directors (BOD) passing the India specific nuclear deal, unanimously. It was not as easy as it may have looked. A number of countries including China, Pakistan, Australia and New Zealand recorded their questions, concerns and apprehensions. When the issue of India’s exemption from NSG guidelines as a non-NPT state comes up at the 45-member non-proliferation body, many of these objections may be put up by a joint front. The NSG decides by consensus only while the IAEA had a voting alternative where India clearly had the majority. As the old Chinese saying goes, a competent general never enters a battle unless he is sure of victory.

The war at the NSG will be fought on different issues – the two specific ones being non-proliferation and strategic considerations.

US Ambassador to India, David Mulford, has come out to say that the USA would work for a “clean” exemption for India and not an “unconditional” one. This is contrary to the understanding the Indian government had from the United States. Ambassador Mulford, of course, speaks on the briefings he receives from Washington and not on his own. It, therefore, suggests that some readjustments or fall-back positions are being worked out in the White House and the US State Department.

There can be a world of difference between “clean” and “unconditional” waiver at the NSG. A “clean” waiver can severely restrict India’s international access rigidly to non-nuclear weapons state (NNWS) conditions and intrusive inspections which will be much worse than the position India currently enjoys with its indigenous capabilities. An unconditional waiver would be in line with India’s position as an “advanced nuclear state”, an euphemism that recognizes India’s own declaration as a nuclear weapons power.

The India-IAEA agreement and the “123” agreement deal clearly with peaceful nuclear energy co-operation. Neither of the two agreements seek to interfere through the “backdoor” into India’s nuclear activities. But a number of NSG member countries seek exactly to do that. If the USA refuses to work for an unconditional passage for India, New Delhi would have to rethink its position.

The Indian Atomic Energy Commission (AEC) Chairman, Dr. Anil Kakodkar, has taken a strong position that an unconditional passage it has to be. He was emphatic in an interview with The Hindu (Aug.3, 2008) that there was no question of debating whether India was a nuclear state or not. The fact has been established. Dr. Kakodkar also pointed out that the draft proposed by the USA to the NSG which contained gradual imposition of non-proliferation label and earliest possible implementation of full-scope guards on Indian nuclear facilities, has been thrown out, and no longer exists.


One should not get too alarmed with the periodic recall by serving and former US officials that the “123” Agreement is consistent with the restrictive and condition-marked Hyde Act. The Hyde Act is American law and does not in any way force India to act according to it. It may seem that this Act constricts and restricts India, but that is an American political decision that the US President will have to take if a situation arises. Actions under such laws are evoked depending on USA’s relations with the particular country. Actions are also taken whether an act exists or not.

The US could have imposed harsh sanctions on China and Pakistan in the past on nuclear and missile proliferations. Laws exist to do so. But political realities from Washington’s perspective prevented any real action. It may be recalled that following May 11 and 13, 1998 nuclear tests (Pokhran-II), India came under severe technological sanctions from the USA and other countries that still exist. Absence of a Hyde Act did not prevent punitive actions against India, since the politics at that particular time was not in India’s favour. We have since come a long way. India has grown rapidly in global stature and strategic importance, and commands a high price. If India conducts a nuclear test, which is unlikely in any case, subsequent developments will have to be addressed politically.

Different countries which continue to block India’s getting an unconditional passage in the NSG have different reasons. New Zealand has its own internal laws which does not even allow American warships to visit unless the ships are declared nuclear free. Japan’s caution arises from its World War-II sufferings. Some European countries look at it in an ideological frame of preventing anything that could lead to war. China, which has one of the worst proliferation records, sees the issue as empowering India, its rival in Asia or, as Beijing is beginning to say, “mainland Asia”. This probe to test change in geographic area in comparing its strength in Asia needs to be noted for the future.

The reasons for China’s opposition to the nuclear deal with debilitating strings attached is the most pernicious of all objections. It has worked out a deceitful position. While Beijing says that it recognizes India’s need for energy for economic development and has no objection to civilian nuclear energy commerce, it adds the co-operation must adhere to international obligations and conform to international safeguards against proliferation and strengthen it (Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman, July 17, 2008).

This is China’s official position, as also reflected at the IAEA BOG meeting in Geneva earlier this month on the India spacific agreement. At the IAEA China mainly left it to Pakistan to warm the pitch for the NSG. A question arises whether China would have gone along if the same deal and conditions offered to India would also have been offered to Pakistan?

To appreciate this question some recollection is necessary. China built Pakistan’s strategic nuclear power and delivery system almost entirely. The so-called father of Pakistan’s nuclear bomb, Dr. A. Q. Khan acted more as a conduit and manager rather than a nuclear scientist. He is a metallurgical engineer by training, and stole some designs from European companies. The real man is Dr.Samar Mukarband and, an Islamic oriented scientist.

China’s clandestine nuclear transfer to Pakistan continued till 2004, according to some reliable reports. The main Chinese objective was to keep India entangled with Pakistan, and an India-Pak parity was maintained which China retained its advantages over India. Change of India’s focus from Pakistan to achieve minimum nuclear deterrence against China disturbed Beijing seriously. China has maintained three positions officially and through their government controlled media; )i) both India and Pakistan must roll back their strategic nuclear programmes, but India should do it first because it tested first in 1998 (ii) if India is given this deal then Pakistan should also be a recipient, to maintain parity (iii) empowering only India will lead to an arms race in South Asia including in nuclear arms.

China’s duplicity comes out rather transparently – the deal could be good if Pakistan also gets it, but it is bad if Pakistan does not. Beijing would have been quite sure that Pakistan would not get such a deal, at least far now, because of the country’s dire political situation when the USA has given some thought whether Islamabad’s nuclear assets should be secured by them in a military action. Therefore, killing the India deal in the current form as it is proceeding, is the best option.

China’s record of violating international non-proliferation regimes is legend, including to Lybia through Pakistan and Dr.A.Q.Khan. It is, therefore, ironic that the same country takes a holy stand in a movement to prevent proliferation.

There is a quiet media propaganda that those countries that are supporting India are doing so in the interest of commerce and not with responsibility towards a safer world. The first is, of course, correct. Commerce is an important factor and the world moves on it. The second part is odious. India’s non-proliferation record is impeachable despite many attempts by the non-proliferation lobby to paint India with a black brush. This same non-proliferation lobby needs to answer why they were rather mute over blatant proliferation activity by China and Pakistan.

Will China kill the India passage at the NSG unless it in a “conditional” waiver? Usually, the Chinese policy makers work with a group and, if possible, use others to do their job. There is another scenario the Chinese have been studying very closely, gathering lessons from the Falklands war, for example. Once a quick strike is made and the objective won, the international community tends to forget it in a short time and move to other business. It would not be surprising if China took this route at the NSG unless it sees greater dividends in falling in line.

China’s decision to constrict India may have some serious impact on bilateral relations. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh took a political risk by writing to President Hu Jintao and Prime Minister Wen Jiabao to support India at the NSG. Whether the Prime Minister should have written to the two Chinese leaders at all, can be debated. But Dr. Singh appears to have put the issue of the bilateral strategic relations for development and co-operation squarely to the Chinese leadership.

The agreement on the separation (military and civilian) of nuclear facilities for the purpose of the nuclear deal accords India a nuclear weapons state status. Neither the “123” agreement nor the IAEA agreement reflect the Indian strategic programme. With its impeccable record on proliferation, its regional and global position, India will be approaching the NSG with credentials that cannot be ignored.

Efforts to force India to the NPT, the CTBT, and still under discussion Fission Material Cutoff Treaty (FMCT) are unacceptable to India. If conditions are sought to be imposed, India will have little option but to pull back. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has clearly kept this road open, but hopes India will not be forced to walk on it.

If China and like minded countries, for their respective reasons, force India to withdraw, it could certainly affect the sub-regional, regional and global political and strategic balances. The issue is up in the air, with hopes for a soft landing and claps all around.

(The author is an eminent China analyst with many years of experience of study on the developments in China. He can be reached at [email protected])
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Arun_S »

India presses for clean waiver at NSG
Mumbai (PTI): Pressing for a "clean" and "unconditonal" waiver from the NSG to take the Indo-US nuclear deal forward, India on Tuesday said it does not expect any new conditions since that would nullify the safeguards pact cleared by the IAEA.

New Delhi also said its export control requirements has already been harmonised in tune with the guidelines of the the 45-nation Nuclear Safeguards Group (NSG) whose clearance will help the country resume nuclear commerce ending the over three decade nuclear isolation.

"We have already harmonised our export control requirements with that of Nuclear Suppliers Group," Atomic Energy Chairman Anil Kakodkar told PTI today, ahead of the NSG's special meeting scheduled on August 21 that will take a call on the nuke deal.

"Conditions(new) will only take away from one hand what has been given from the other (consensus at IAEA on India specific safeguards agreement on August 1)," he said.

"All we want is a clean and unconditional exemption from the Nuclear Suppliers Group," he said.

NSG guidelines require comprehensive safeguards (applicable only to NPT countries), and since India has both civil and military programmes, we have a unique position. Therefore, such comprehensive safeguards are not relevant to India. Hence, clean exemption from that is what we are seeking," Kakodkar said.

"They should exempt India from the requirement of comprehensive safeguards and add no other conditions," he added.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by ramana »

Where are the diplomats and is AK being setup?
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by RajeshA »

The only condition, which might be acceptable to India, would be a general urge from the NSG members to India to commit to work towards disarmament, on similar lines as the Nuclear Weapon States in the NPT are obliged to do but never do, as well as conditions already included in the India-IAEA safeguards agreement, the Separation Plan and NSG Export Guidelines..

Expectation to sign NPT could be a red rag. As that would mean India is not being accepted as a State with Nuclear Weapons similar to the NWSs, but rather as a state currently not in compliance with a NNWS status, but which has to brought to that level, over the long term. This is where the Japanese position irks somewhat.

On the other hand, an expectation to sign CTBT, FMCT, MTCR, etc. is OK, because these are not waiting only for India for ratification, and there are many others, who still have not ratified these.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Katare »

I don't see how anything can be unconditional in broad sense of the word. But this may be what "unconditional" means in AK's mind -
India on Tuesday said it does not expect any new conditions since that would nullify the safeguards pact cleared by the IAEA.
This makes a lot more sense.........
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by ramana »

I guess you havent read what was already stated-unconditional. Any extra word will cause rethinking. Its quite serious and not a negotating position.

US already has the Hyde Act with all its Hiranyakashyap conditions and its tolerated as a national law while NSG is an international agreement. Cant have conditions in that for it will lead to complications downstream. Other nations can have their own Hyde or Jekyll or Vampire acts when they do commerce with India but not the international agreement.

AK is right and deserves our support. The curious thing is such statements should come from policy makers and the MEA.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by putnanja »

NPT issue a sticking point
NPT issue a sticking point

Siddharth Varadarajan

In exempting India from export rules of NSG

New Delhi: The United States’ insistence on retaining the prescriptive language about India eventually accepting international inspections of its nuclear facilities has emerged as one of the key stumbling blocks in the process of exempting New Delhi from the export rules of the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG).

The draft language has been moving back and forth “at multiple levels" between both sides for the past few days, but a fix has not yet been found to the problem, senior officials told The Hindu.

Including the proposed language would tantamount to reiterating that the NSG expects India to accede to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, something the Government of India maintains it will never do.
Strong objection

India had strongly objected to this formulation as early as March 2006, when the U.S. first circulated a six-paragraph “pre-decisional” draft of the proposed changes to the NSG guidelines. But a version of that prescriptive language continues to bedevil the process.

The U.S. says that several European members of the NSG are insisting on the retention of this stipulation, though the fact that it was part of the initial American draft suggests Washington also attaches some value to it.

The NSG is expected to begin deliberating on the Indian exemption on August 21, but a final decision is likely to be taken only at a second meeting to be held in the September first week.
The restrictions

The NSG’s export restrictions are contained in paragraph 4 of its guidelines, published by the International Atomic Energy Agency as Infcirc/254 (Rev.9).

Paragraph 4(a) says a necessary condition for nuclear sales is that the recipient country must have a comprehensive safeguards agreement with the IAEA, allowing for inspection of all its nuclear installations.

Paras 4(b) and (c) allow exceptions to this rule if there are safety considerations, or if a supply agreement was drawn up prior to 1992, when the rules were adopted. And 4(d) says suppliers invoking these two exceptions “will continue to strive for the earliest possible implementation of the policy referred to in paragraph 4(a),” i.e. acceptance of full-scope safeguards.
The U.S. draft

The U.S. draft will relax the paragraph 4(a) requirement of full-scope safeguards for India as long as the NSG members are satisfied that India is meeting its non-proliferation and safeguards obligations as outlined in its safeguards agreement with the IAEA and the July 2005 agreement with the U.S.

These include the testing moratorium, maintaining an effective system of export control, working towards a fissile material cut-off treaty and negotiating an additional protocol with the IAEA.

But the draft also reiterates language from paragraph 4(d) of the NSG guidelines, something that is anathema to New Delhi.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by putnanja »

We expect NSG to amend guidelines: U.S. Ambassador
We expect NSG to amend guidelines: U.S. Ambassador

Special Correspondent

NEW DELHI: The United States expects the Nuclear Suppliers Group to amend its guidelines to accommodate India this month and will then table the India-U.S. civil nuclear agreement before Congress in September first week, U.S. Ambassador David Mulford has said.

“The U.S. understands that India will not sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. This was the basis of the negotiations with which we had gone forward and that was addressed throughout the negotiations,’ he told journalists here over phone from Washington on Tuesday.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by ramana »

OK now we know where AK is coming from. No prescriptive/viscreptive B S. Clean/unconditional language onlee. This will show their real intentions.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by NRao »

Mulford is of the thinking that 123/IAEA/etc are conditions enough - those should cover all the concerns of the NSG - and so the NSG does not need any conditions of their own.

AK is stating that he does not want any conditions placed by the NSG, period - and implies that he does not care about 123/IAEA WRT the NSG - not their concern.

Mulford want sit to go through ASAP adn AK does not want future misinterpretations.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by putnanja »

“Hoping only for a clean exemption”
“Hoping only for a clean exemption”

Special Correspondent

NEW DELHI: United States Ambassador David Mulford Ambassador has said the U.S. had launched a major diplomatic offensive to convince the NSG nations to approve India’s entry into global civil nuclear trade and was confident that the U.S. sponsored draft would soon be ready for circulation among the 45-member countries.

He, however, did not wish to speculate on whether Congress would be able to approve the agreement in the short time that is left before it goes into recess.

“The U.S. Congress is a sovereign body and it has its own procedure and rules. So at this point, nobody really knows whether it will be able to act in the very short period of time at its disposal. What we are trying is to position the 123 Agreement in Congress. The goal is to complete the NSG process in August and submit it in early September,” he told journalists over phone from Washington.

“The notice period can be changed but it is not possible to speak on behalf of Congress,” he added when asked whether Congress would waive the mandatory time period for considering the bill.

Mr. Mulford said:

``The U.S. is very heavily engaged in a major diplomatic offensive at all levels. We continue to move forward and are working very closely with the Government of India to coordinate this process. We are working out the language we want to submit to the NSG. One that is done, we will submit it to the NSG and hope it moves quickly in August.

``We want to underline that we have already shared the draft with India. We want to get the right sort of draft that will be most effective with the NSG. In the coming days we will complete the work and distribute it to NSG members.”

On the clean exemption issue, he offered a personal opinion. “Unconditional is not a very good word in this context…. there is a huge amount of work on this understanding and, therefore, to use the word unconditional to me is oversimplification. I will be hoping only for a clean exemption. That is my personal view and not of the U.S. government.”

Refusing to speculate about what will happen at the NSG meeting, he expected “people to listen seriously and hope at the end of the day they will accept. We would not wish to see the additional points raised so that they become part of the process. This is a very complex process and we are now moving to the final stage. And obviously we hope that all players come together at the NSG and accept that the aim of this to normalise civilian nuclear process with India.”

Mr. Mulford could not confirm whether President George Bush had invited Prime Minister Manmohan Singh for a visit next month. But, if Dr. Singh goes to attend the UN Assembly in September, “it is possible for them to meet,” he said.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by mandrake »

Arun ji please check mail. Thanks.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Katare »

ramana wrote:OK now we know where AK is coming from. No prescriptive/viscreptive B S. Clean/unconditional language onlee. This will show their real intentions.
Absolutely I would like to get a one line waiver that reads - 'Effective immediately, NSG guidelines are waived for India unconditionally and in perpetuity" :mrgreen:

You seem to have missed a portion of discussion we had a couple days back. The discussion was about what is unconditional means? AK has never defined the term and the words have very broad meanings for different people. IAEA inspection is a condition, Separation plan is a condition, return of nuclear material/reactor is a condition, getting NSG waiver is a condition, building a safeguarded reprocessing facility is a condition. We have also put conditions like life time uniterupted supplies, strategic reserves, reprocessing rights. There are many more stated and implied conditions already built into the nuclear agreement on which the NSG waiver is being discussed.

So unconditional could only mean that no new conditions are mentioned/imposed in NSG waiver. As long as it relies on 123 and IAEA text we should be OK. If its something else I haven't seen any difination by AK who devised that term.

Anyhow shri AK ji is doing a wonderful service to Indian cause and he deserves all the support we can give him. may be there is a reason behind him not spelling out his "phrase" in public. No DDM has ever asked him either.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by ramana »

katare, I might have missed the discussioin but I know the gist of it without having to be part of it.

Here is my posy on the very same subject a few posts above this.
ramana wrote:I guess you havent read what was already stated-unconditional. Any extra word will cause rethinking. Its quite serious and not a negotating position.

US already has the Hyde Act with all its Hiranyakashyap conditions and its tolerated as a national law while NSG is an international agreement. Cant have conditions in that for it will lead to complications downstream. Other nations can have their own Hyde or Jekyll or Vampire acts when they do commerce with India but not the international agreement.

AK is right and deserves our support. The curious thing is such statements should come from policy makers and the MEA.
So whats your takleef?
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Gerard »

Anyhow shri AK ji is doing a wonderful service to Indian cause and he deserves all the support we can give him.
He appears equally at home designing a reactor at BARC or assembling an atomic bomb at the test site in Pokhran or negotiating with hard nosed IAEA bureaucrats in Vienna.
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by RajeshA »

If it had not been for Anil Kakodkar, Manmohan Singh would have had a hard time selling the nuclear deal to the Indian constituency. Americans would have dangled the carrot of a nuclear deal, and many prized family jewels including sovereignty in nuclear matters would have been bartered away. The dangling carrot could have made Manmohan Singh blind to the pitfalls, and he could have urged his bureaucrats to yield to American demands. In hindsight, Manmohan Singh would be feeling happy, that he found a comrade-in-arms in Anil Kakodkar, who was willing to stand his ground, and he and other negotiators debated the Americans to exhaustion. There was a lot of talk of shifting goal-posts, but Anil Kakodkar was still able to strike.
Who knows, one day he may be revered in similar fashion as Homi Babha, as the Uncle of the Indian Civilian Nuclear Industry. Manmohan Singh remains Father however. :)
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by Arun_S »

How the N-deal will play out - Bharat Karnad
With the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) giving its tepid approval, the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) and the US Congress now loom as the big obstacles to the nuclear deal. The dissatisfaction with the so-called “India-specific” safeguards accord voiced in Vienna may take concrete shape at NSG, in which countries such as Norway and Ireland will refuse to play ball. If a “clean, clear, and unconditional” exemption from nuclear trade strictures the Indian government is seeking does not accrue, can a politically hobbled Manmohan Singh regime move forward on the deal?

What is at issue is the ambiguity that made the deal possible in the first place. While New Delhi hints that the “corrective” measures mentioned in the preamble of the safeguards agreement allow it to withdraw its civilian nuclear facilities from the safeguards system if, despite contractual obligations, the supply of nuclear fuel, material, and technology is disrupted for any reason, including resumption of testing by India, Washington takes comfort from provisions in the operative part of the document referring to safeguards in perpetuity that imply rejection of a nuclear weapon state status for India. The US is also categorical that, as required by the 2006 Hyde Act, all cooperation is premised on India’s not testing again, notwithstanding anything in the supposedly “superceding” bilateral 123 Agreement. In their eagerness to obtain a deal, the two governments have papered over their differences. This has, however, merely postponed the day of reckoning and shifted the burden of taking hard decisions to successor governments in the two countries.

This is what is fundamentally wrong with the nuclear deal — the incredibly short policy time horizon adopted by the two principals, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and U.S. President George W. Bush, disregarding in the process the Indian imperatives to test and verify thermonuclear weapons designs in order to make its deterrent credible, and the non-proliferation underpinnings of US strategic interests, respectively. Assuming further Indian tests are held temporarily in abeyance, how will the deal play out?

The most likely scenario is for the Congress coalition to be dumped in the next general elections. It will bring the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP)-led coalition or the Left-supported “Third Front” to power, whereupon the deal will be dead, as the BJP is committed to “renegotiating” it and the Communist parties to junking it.

In the unlikely event of the Congress-headed United Progressive Alliance returning to power, there will be safeguards on our civilian nuclear programme but no energy windfall owing to the exorbitant cost of electricity from imported reactors, contracts for which will require, at a minimum, a radical dilution of the supplier’s risk and liability. With the Bhopal gas tragedy as background, this last will be politically infeasible for any government to arrange, even one with a heavy majority in Parliament.

So the costs of risk insurance will end up being subsidized by the Indian taxpayer or folded into the installation and running costs of imported reactors, compounding the already high cost of capital, resulting in high pay-outs all-round. How high? The US government has proposed risk insurance at roughly $500 million for a two-unit power plant. But such insurance costs are nothing compared with the escalating costs of constructing and operating the foreign reactors. The real cost of a new 1,000MW nuclear power station in Britain, for instance, is believed to exceed $9 billion, twice the original estimate. The cost of a Toshiba-Westinghouse reactor in the US is $10 billion.

Then there are the inevitable time and cost over-runs. The 1,600 MW reactor being put up in Olkiluoto, Finland, by an Areva-Siemens consortium, according to a report in the Financial Times, is already 60% over budget and two-and-a-half years behind schedule. Such delays are being experienced by Areva plants under construction in France as well. An insurer covering for the delays in energy delivery would have to ante up some $9 billion — virtually the cost of the plant — for buying alternative energy in the interim. Much has been written in the Indian press of low availability of power from indigenous power plants. But the four newest nuclear power plants in France in their first four years have averaged only 45% in energy availability.
A wised-up Areva and its American and Russian counterparts will ensure that all the costs for liability and risk insurance, construction and operating delays, and reactor efficiency and performance penalties will contractually be borne by the Indian exchequer. If you thought Dabhol electric power at Rs7-8 per unit was scandalous, wait for electricity units priced at Rs30 or more.

The PM has talked of imported reactors providing clean energy and energy independence. He is repeating the mistake, which a senior French energy official, Mycle Schneider, says French leaders make, namely, “conveniently confusing” electricity and energy. He explains that while “nuclear energy provides 78% of France’s electricity, this corresponds to only 18% of the total energy that consumers use”, and imported oil still “meets almost half, and fossil fuels over 70%, of France’s total energy needs”. If these figures are translated to the Indian scene, the already weak justification for imported nuclear energy — the raison d’etre for the nuclear deal — sinks.

Bharat Karnad is author, most recently, of India’s Nuclear Policy to be published in the US this October by Praeger. Comment at [email protected]
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Re: India Nuclear News and Discussion 23 July 2008

Post by p_saggu »

Well I don't know if the NSG waiver will be clean and unconditional, more likely it will have something or the other that will cause takleef to GOI and the Indian Nuclear Establishment. There is a very high chance that future nuclear testing will be linked to fuel supply, and you can bet that MMS is preparing another round of speeches to obfuscate this fact from the nation and the political parties.

What is clear is that all American think tanks believe that India will resume nuclear weapons testing. If any confirmation was ever needed, India's negotiations have sought to vociferously defend just this ability, in addition to the Fast Breeder programme (Which many see as just another way to further enhance weapon grade fissile material stockpile rather than high end research into an exciting new technology).

What I do know is that the George W Bush presidency has fully capitalized on this window period where India had a weak leadership, when India was not likely to test nuclear weapons. He has prevented India from testing during his presidency, and has now bound India into a multinational agreement where a linkage to nuclear weapons testing is brought out.

The gain for India is what the US was willing to offer the North Koreans - end their nuclear weapons programme in return for nuclear technology and reactors from the US. India gains from getting all the high end (?debatable) nuclear technology previously not available.

The US gains by bringing India into a US specific and a Multinational agreement where India's good behavior is brought on the table. (Make no mistake, India was the biggest stumbling block and the only superpower grade nation which nearly wrecked decades of nonproliferation efforts of the NPT and the CTBT).

The NSG nations will breath easy that the Indian elephant was finally brought in with a noose around its neck. Arm twisting by the US will ensure that US companies make good on the business opportunities that this deal will throw up. So everyone is happy as long as India was willing to freeze its nuclear weapon programme.
Last edited by p_saggu on 06 Aug 2008 13:37, edited 1 time in total.
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