Indian Military Aviation

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby rkhanna » 03 Aug 2008 15:30

have they mentioned AESA ?? if yes, that might mean something has happened that we, in the public domain don't know of.


Well AESA is not in the product Designation. The SIPRI Listing only mentions Elta 2052 . 5 Units signed in 2006. The Deal for 2032 is different.

What would the 2052 be without its AESA Antenna?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 03 Aug 2008 15:35

in that case, as singha mentioned in the other thread, it is a typo.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby PaulJI » 03 Aug 2008 16:53

shiv wrote:Does anyone have information on the following questions:

1) How many Indian Air Force airfields have maintenance facilities for the Il 76
2) How many Indian Air Force airfields have maintenance facilities for other large aircraft like the Boeing 707 or Airbus
3) How many trained maintenance personnel the IAF already has for the IL 76
4) How many personnel and new airfield facilities will the IAF have to create if they went for an ad hoc change to an Airbus or :eek: any decrepit 707s that still exist - to b operated in parallel with exiting Il 76s
5) What is the short field performance of the Airbus versus the Il 76
6) What is the rough-field performance of Airbus versus Il 76
7) How many maintenance facilities exist for Airbus in civilan facilities in India and what level fo maintenance can be done - i.e under what conditions would an Airbus have to fly out of India for routine repair/maintenance.

If some of these things can be addressed satisfactorily sure an Airbus can be used instead of the Il 76.

Why refer to "decrepit" Boeing 707s? The aircraft being discussed are A320s & Boeing 737s, not 707s.

In late 2007, there were about 120 B737 & 140 A320 family aircraft operated by various Indian airlines, with at least another 40 B737 & 225 A320 on order. As for maintenance facilities - well, when you have that many aircraft in a country, it makes sense to set them up. In addition to the Indian Airlines facilities at Delhi and Calcutta, private companies have been doing so. For example, Lufthansa Technik (their maintenance branch, which supports many airlines) is setting up a facility at Shamshabad for both A320 & B737, expected to be operational later this year, initially for checks, later for deep maintenance. Airbus, EADS & an Indian partner are setting up a maintenance facility at Delhi, initially for A320, later for other types. Boeing will also have a deep maintenance facility in India soon. Some engine & avionics repair facilities exist, more are being built.

There are several airline-owned facilities for minor maintenance, & the current explosive growth in airlines in India is leading to a similarly rapid growth in maintenance facilities, with airlines which currently send aircraft abroad (e.g. to Singapore) for heavy maintenance seeking to do it locally. The sums being spent on constructing private facilities are a large multiple of what the IAF could afford. Indias current rapid economic growth is changing the rules: certain classes of infrastructure are appearing without the state needing to build them, faster than the state can afford to build them. The state (including the armed forces) can take advantage of that, if it chooses.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby rkhanna » 03 Aug 2008 18:07

in that case, as singha mentioned in the other thread, it is a typo.


Well that is one Possibility.

Anyways anybody have info on these "ASTRA" ELINT aircrafts..?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shiv » 03 Aug 2008 19:46

PaulJI wrote:Why refer to "decrepit" Boeing 707s? The aircraft being discussed are A320s & Boeing 737s, not 707s.

because I read, on the previous page:
There are a few B-707s listed with the ARC for "communications and training" :) purposes. Don't see why they would not be equipped for the above roles. However, not sure if those have been phased out by now given their age...


I have highlighted some phrases of your post quoted below in green because I see them as crucial to what i am trying to say. I have already said it but I will use your post to emphasize what I mean


PaulJI wrote:In late 2007, there were about 120 B737 & 140 A320 family aircraft operated by various Indian airlines, with at least another 40 B737 & 225 A320 on order. As for maintenance facilities - well, when you have that many aircraft in a country, it makes sense to set them up. In addition to the Indian Airlines facilities at Delhi and Calcutta, private companies have been doing so. For example, Lufthansa Technik (their maintenance branch, which supports many airlines) is setting up a facility at Shamshabad for both A320 & B737, expected to be operational later this year, initially for checks, later for deep maintenance. Airbus, EADS & an Indian partner are setting up a maintenance facility at Delhi, initially for A320, later for other types. Boeing will also have a deep maintenance facility in India soon. Some engine & avionics repair facilities exist, more are being built.

There are several airline-owned facilities for minor maintenance, & the current explosive growth in airlines in India is leading to a similarly rapid growth in maintenance facilities, with airlines which currently send aircraft abroad (e.g. to Singapore) for heavy maintenance seeking to do it locally. The sums being spent on constructing private facilities are a large multiple of what the IAF could afford. Indias current rapid economic growth is changing the rules: certain classes of infrastructure are appearing without the state needing to build them, faster than the state can afford to build them. The state (including the armed forces) can take advantage of that, if it chooses.


The highlighted phrases in green refer to the future. That future is dependent on the market, and on expected profit margins. I am a shareholder in several India based airlines (all of which are private companies that have shareholder money invested) and the last thing I want to see is over capacity to service the Air Force or the Air Force commandeering civilian a/c and facilities. I am sure this is what every shareholder feels. The Air Force cannot grab special favors in peacetime and will have to pay if it wants a piece of the action and will have to stand in the queue because India is not a military state.

Why bother when the IAF has the Il 76 now with a great flying record?

The "future" is different. The IAF may choose a 737 for a new requirement. Right now the Il 76 is the IAF's best bet.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby SaiK » 03 Aug 2008 19:51

Rahul M wrote:in that case, as singha mentioned in the other thread, it is a typo.

check cached link that i posted now in the tejas thread. i doubt its typo.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby PaulJI » 04 Aug 2008 00:07

shiv wrote:The highlighted phrases in green refer to the future. That future is dependent on the market, and on expected profit margins. I am a shareholder in several India based airlines (all of which are private companies that have shareholder money invested) and the last thing I want to see is over capacity to service the Air Force or the Air Force commandeering civilian a/c and facilities. I am sure this is what every shareholder feels. The Air Force cannot grab special favors in peacetime and will have to pay if it wants a piece of the action and will have to stand in the queue because India is not a military state.

Why bother when the IAF has the Il 76 now with a great flying record?

The "future" is different. The IAF may choose a 737 for a new requirement. Right now the Il 76 is the IAF's best bet.

I missed the reference to 707s. My apologies. But as to the substance - for the short-term (& only short-term, pending a longer-term acquisition), fitting ELINT gear to B707s which are already owned might make sense, dependingNeed a lot of maintenance, but if they're already owned, the spares are in stock, & crew trained, there is no acquisition cost.

The Lufthansa Technik & Delhi joint venture facilities are already financed & under construction. The airline-owned facilities I referred to already exist. Their future development is market-dependent, agreed, but barring a collapse in the Indian airline market & the cancellation of almost all current orders, which appears most unlikely (& would probably be part of a general economic crisis which would cut IAF funding) their market is secure.

Who said anything about the IAF commandeering anything? It can pay for access. It should still be cheaper than buying the Il-76. If the IAF is a paying customer, then there is no "overcapacity", since the capacity needed to service the IAF is part of the commercial demand, & extra IAF demands in any war could well be accompanied by reduced civilian demand.

The Il-76 is a fine transport aircraft, but using for roles it doesn't suit, just for commonality, does not make no financial or operational sense. Adding more Il-76s means more spending on support. It doesn't come free. The Il-76 is very expensive to operate compared to an A320 or B737, & far larger than needed for an ELINT aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 04 Aug 2008 09:31

indeed. the cost of setting up repair facilities is already amortized across the vendors and
multiple civilian airlines.

even a EMB-145 or ATR-72 probably has enough of a payload for passive comint tasks using current gen equipment (jmho). but endurance is an issue. for offensive EW, better to to have
big engines for addl electrical power.

so a 737 or A321 slots in nicely in most respects. a 8 hr mission should be possible because mtow will be less than the max civilian usage. only 15-20 people on board (including
trainees), no luggage and a few tons of mission specific eqpt. a comfortable crew rest area
with business class seating and few bunks & galley in the rear for a replacement crew is possible
but for a 8hr mission a replacement crew is not absolutely necessary.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sohamn » 04 Aug 2008 09:57

guys, i don't know from where you got this info that arc operates b 707. I don't think any indian operator uses 707 anymore. Even usa is planning to dispose the 707's. It has very high maintenance and bad fuel efficency. As per phalcon is concerned i think il 76 is the best option for india. Because of its range, payload and since its already in use.
Now don't think an awacs platform doesn't have much payload. The rotodrom , equipments and the men might be almost equal to a normal passenger liner. We should also remember the drag the drome will induce. So i don't think 737 will be am ideal platform for a big awac.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Nayak » 04 Aug 2008 14:46

Seig Hiel

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... urpg-2.cms

PM's very own Air Force One is here

NEW DELHI: Quietly, very quietly, the desi version of the US president's "Air Force One" has landed. From now on, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh can breathe easy as he gets a plush new, highly secure office high in the sky, much like President George Bush.

The first of three wide-bodied VVIP Boeing Business Jets, ordered in October 2005 at a cost of Rs 937 crore, touched down at the Palam airport here on Saturday night to join IAF's elite communication squadron, which ferries the President, the PM and other top dignitaries. "The other two should also come, one after the other, in the next 45 days," said an official.

The highly customised planes — which come with sophisticated self-protection suites (SPS), encrypted satellite communication facilities and advanced navigation aids — will ensure the PM and his entourage can fly in far more comfortable, and more importantly, secure environs than ever before.

The delivery of the VVIP planes, initially scheduled for June as earlier reported by TOI , was somewhat delayed due to Washington's insistence on proper safeguards for the hush-hush security equipment, like the SPS, fitted on them.

With India on course to sign the End-Use Verification Agreement (EUVA) and the Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) with the US, the fears of hush-hush security equipment like the self-protection suites (SPS) in the aircraft have been allayed now.

As per US laws, a country procuring American defence equipment must negotiate pacts like EUVA and CISMOA to minimise security risks to US and its allies as well as ensure compliance with sensitive technology control requirements.

"The two pacts need to be signed since we are buying a lot of defence equipment from the US now, like the deal finalized for six C-130J Super Hercules aircraft for $962.45 million," said a senior official.

"We don't have problems with safeguards when sensitive technology is being transferred to us but we don't want anything which is intrusive and unnecessary. We have a spotless record in not letting high-technology leak to third parties," he added. Though not as technically sophisticated as Bush's Air Force One, the three Indian planes do have potent systems to tackle incoming "hostile" missiles or other airborne threats.

The SPS includes "radar warning receivers" to alert the plane that a hostile radar has "painted" it and a missile may be on the way. The "missile-approach warning systems" and "counter-measure systems" will then help the planes take automatic evasive action by shooting metal chaff to "fool" radar-guided missiles and flares to throw heat-seeking missiles off the track.

The aircraft, in fact, can even fool an incoming missile through the projection of a "ghost image". There are also enough advanced electronic counter-measures on board to jam hostile radars. The PM will have a full-fledged executive office and bedroom to himself on board, apart from a secure communication chamber and facilities to host around 50 guests. This, in fact, had come in for some sharp criticism in the latest Comptroller and Auditor General report, which had slammed the UPA government for the VVIP jets deal since it "deviated from laid-down procedures and well recognized norms of propriety". :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

rajat.pandit@timesgroup.com


I would love to work with one of this CAG monkeys.

They would even count the number of breaths in proportion to the f@rts.

Hopefully our desi guys would have scanned the aircraft thoroughly for any easter eggs left by our benevolent benefactor intentionally or otherwise. :wink: :wink: :wink:

Kaka must not know what is the appropriate sale price of our useless politicians from bugging the aircraft.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby PaulJI » 04 Aug 2008 15:23

sohamn wrote:...As per phalcon is concerned i think il 76 is the best option for india. Because of its range, payload and since its already in use.
Now don't think an awacs platform doesn't have much payload. The rotodrom , equipments and the men might be almost equal to a normal passenger liner. We should also remember the drag the drome will induce. So i don't think 737 will be am ideal platform for a big awac.

But we aren't discussing Phalcon here. That's a done deal. We're discussing a possible platform for electronic intelligence (ELINT - including SIGINT - signals & COMINT - communications), a listening plane, such as the US RC-135 Rivet Joint, or the UKs Nimrod R.1, or the Atlantics formerly used by Germany. They do not have a heavy, drag-inducing radar dome, but a variety of smaller antennae, some of which can be conformal.

Here is a picture of a Nimrod R.1 - http://www.rob.clubkawasaki.com/jas4355.jpg

Germany is buying Global Hawk as its new ELINT platform, to carry a system developed by EADS - the "EuroHawk". An interesting choice of platform, with great advantages in regard to endurance, but very limited payload.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 04 Aug 2008 16:41

Paul, won't the global hawks be blocked under MTCR ?? AFAIK, it speaks about both missiles and UAVs.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sunilUpa » 04 Aug 2008 18:22

Rahul M wrote:Paul, won't the global hawks be blocked under MTCR ?? AFAIK, it speaks about both missiles and UAVs.


It depends, as long as other MTCR signatories don't object, it will go through. AFAIK Russia objected to similar deal with South Korea. But UK deal with UAE (or was it Qatar) for Air launched cruise missile (I forget the name of the missile) went through.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 04 Aug 2008 18:28

rules are made by the strong for the strong. there will not be any problems for germany.
UK even managed to import Thawks and Trident D-5 while spain is eyeing Thawks :rotfl:

Even usa is planning to dispose the 707's.


I do not think there is any immediate plan to dispose the 45 or so E-3 sentry. the KC-135
and KC-10 tankers will get replaced if their "mrca" tanker deal is ever concluded. been
dragging on for 5+ yrs now.
there must be scores of RC-135 and other variants floating around somewhere. I recall
bill gunstons spy planes book with a huge lineup of C-135 but having a bulbous phalcon
type bee stung nose.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby PaulJI » 04 Aug 2008 19:54

Rahul M wrote:Paul, won't the global hawks be blocked under MTCR ?? AFAIK, it speaks about both missiles and UAVs.

No. There's no plan to arm them (has any Global Hawk ever been armed?), & in any case, it's a transaction between countries which are both NATO & MTCR members. Also, the MTCR restrictions are voluntary. It is not a binding treaty.

From the Foreign & Commonwealth office -
"MISSILE TECHNOLOGY CONTROL REGIME (MTCR)

The MTCR is a non-treaty arrangement of 29 states which seeks to prevent the proliferation of missile systems capable of delivering weapons of mass destruction, through export controls on complete missiles, as well as the materials, components and technology used in missile systems. The controls are focused on missiles with a range of over 300km. The MTCR Guidelines and Annex form the basis of case by case decisions on exports by the member states. In the absence of any international treaty norms for missile proliferation, the MTCR also acts to co-ordinate broader measures to tackle missile proliferation."

Among other transactions between NATO & MTCR members, Tomahawk missiles have been sold to the UK, & sales approved to Spain & the Netherlands (but the latter cancelled the purchase), Storm Shadow/Scalp has been sold to Italy & Greece, & KEPD-350 to Spain.

The (non-NATO, non-MTCR) UAE bought the Black Shaheen derivative of Scalp from France, for its Mirage 2000s, but that is supposedly range-limited to meet the MTCR guidelines, that being one of the differences from the basic Scalp.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby SaiK » 04 Aug 2008 20:40

justing thinking like an american president might do, i am trying to analyze about communication and intelligent feed that could be narrowed down by evesdropping probes well connected to the "federation" of the air-force one!~.. that nuke button perhaps is more important, and any of those hindi translated codes in DC receives a command to protect their oil-friendly nations... what are the losses just from speeking "freedom"?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 04 Aug 2008 21:46

^^^
mind putting that in english, so that we could all understand ??

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby svinayak » 06 Aug 2008 05:34

chrslbrt (3 weeks ago)

"The SUs don't need radar to lock on a target because of their optic electronic detection" Do you know the range of EO tech? 30km. That is still diminished because the F-22 has a redued IR signal. Besides, EOTS isnt as effective as radar. They would still get shot down.
edwong3 (3 weeks ago)

The IRST unit displayed on the SU-35BM demonstrator has enhanced detection capabilities of up to 90km, not 30km! Not a single western made fighter has anything like it. Besides, I was referring to the advantage this system gives in mid to close range engagements, not BVR. Even with the first shot by the F-22, an AIM-120D won't be able to touch the SU because of advanced ECM like "Digital Radio Frequency Memory". The missile will literally miss it's intended target by about a mile.
chrslbrt (3 weeks ago)

3 reasons that was all irrelevant. 1.The EOTS range would still be decreased because the F-22 doenst need to use afterburners and it has IR masking. 2.The Aim-120D uses an AESA radar, and therefore is nearly impossible to jam. 3. Why use EOTS in mid range if you have radar. We have plenty of AMRAAMs. Your advaantage is irrelavant.
edwong3 (3 weeks ago)

I agree with most of what you said, but this scenario is valid if the F-22 is confronting the "usual adversaries"...namely air forces of small, third world countries. Against an adversary with advanced countermeasures, the F-22's reduced RCS, and small heat signature are compromised. Long ranged, low frequency ground, and space borne radars, and advanced optic electronics are deadly to any intruder, unless he's flying in a Klingon Bird of Prey with the cloaking device turned on. Peace. ESA radar is "nearly impossible" to jam? The Irbis E's total power output is greater than the AN/APG-77 fielded by the F-22, and will cut through it's ECM like "a hot knife through butter! Why use EOTS if there is radar? Simple! You of all people should know the answer! Don't you assert that the F-22 is too stealthy for a fighter borne radar? So that's the reason for using advanced optic electronics for detection, tracking, and lock on of weapons. Simple!

In the realm of the physical sciences, there is only so much that stealth technology can do. Any object flying through the atmosphere, disturbs the Earth's magnetic field. That's called "magnetic anomaly detection". Doppler radar can "see" the "air vortices" left by the aircraft...yes even a stealth plane. And "netted networks" of radar antennas can send signals from different angles, and find a low observable aircraft. Russia has these technologies, but small countries don't. So don't worry:)
The SUs don't need radar to lock on a target because of their optic electronic detection" Do you know the range of EO tech? 30km. That is still diminished because the F-22 has a redued IR signal. Besides, EOTS isnt as effective as radar. They would still get shot down.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby PaulJI » 06 Aug 2008 14:58

Acharya wrote:
chrslbrt (3 weeks ago)
The IRST unit displayed on the SU-35BM demonstrator has enhanced detection capabilities of up to 90km, not 30km! Not a single western made fighter has anything like it.

PIRATE - on Eurofighter. BTW, there's a huge difference between detection and identification ranges for IRSTs. 90 km detection could mean 30 km identification, & both are affected by atmospheric conditions.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby putnanja » 07 Aug 2008 01:22

IAF pilot dies after landing

A member of the Surya Kiran aircraft aerobatic team posted at Bidar Air Force Base died of a massive cardiac arrest in Bidar on Wednesday. The deceased Squadron Leader Vikas Sharma (34) hailed from Madhya Pradesh.

Police sources said that Wing Commander Dhaliwal and Sharma completed their flying hours in Surya Kiran aircraft and soon after the latter alighted from the aircraft suffered an attack and was rushed to Air Force Medical Centre for emergency medical services. Sharma breathed his last on the way to the hospital. A case has been registered in Gandhi Gunj police station.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Juggi G » 07 Aug 2008 02:04

Defense News
India Bows to Dassault Maintenance Deal Demands
By Vvivek Raghuvanshi
Published: 5 Aug 12:16 EDT (16:16 GMT)

NEW DELHI - After resolving differences on technical issues, French company Dassault and the Indian Defence Ministry inked an agreement Aug. 5 on maintenance of the Indian Air Force's Mirage aircraft fleet.

Ministry sources said a six-month stalemate between the two sides was finally broken when the Indian side acceded to the French company's demands pertaining to charges on liquidated damages.

Half of the Air Force's 46 Mirage 2000-H aircraft faced grounding had the stalemate persisted, a service official said.

Dassault had insisted on renewing the maintenance contract only if liquidated charges are calculated at the rate of 0.5 percent of the total contract on a monthly basis. The Defence Ministry wanted the 0.5 percent to be calculated per week.

Sources in the ministry said the Aug. 5 agreement meets Dassault's demand.

Dassault had threatened to take the matter to the courts, which would have led to long delays in Mirage repairs.

The repair contract originally was signed in 1982, when the Mirage aircraft were delivered, and was due for renewal in 2007.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby putnanja » 08 Aug 2008 02:27

IAF plane makes emergency landing

SILIGURI: A two-seater plane of the IAF made an emergency landing on the river bed of Barsa at Hamiltonganj in Jalpaiguri district of West Bengal on Thursday.

The aircraft with two pilots developed a snag in the engine after it took off from the Hasimara air base.

IAF sources said the plane was being examined at the air base. – PTI

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sum » 08 Aug 2008 08:49

Which two-seater operates in bengal?

a MiG-27 trainer?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sunilUpa » 08 Aug 2008 09:43

sum wrote:Which two-seater operates in bengal?

a MiG-27 trainer?


Micro- light aircraft makes emergency landing, pilots safe

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sunilUpa » 08 Aug 2008 09:44

India says $1bln helicopter deal to be signed with Russia soon

DELHI, August 7 (RIA Novosti) - The Indian Air Force said on Thursday that India will soon sign a contract with Russia to receive 80 Mi-17 Hip-H multirole helicopters.

Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major said preparations for signing the contract are now in their final stages. The deal is estimated at $1 billion.

Indian media earlier reported that the contract was under threat over Russia's attempt to significantly raise the delivery price, and that negotiations were stalling.

A preliminary agreement to sell Mi-17 helicopters to India was reached in March 2007 at a meeting of the Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission on military cooperation.


About time!

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sunilUpa » 08 Aug 2008 09:46

IAF sets up aerospace control base

Aug. 7: The Indian Air Force has set up a "dedicated space sub-branch" to "coordinate" all its activities on aerospace, Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal F.H. Major announced on Thursday. Air Chief Marshal Major said that the IAF had embarked on "a series of progressive steps to integrate assets in space into its operational plans". This, the IAF chief said, meant "synergising the capability that space provides" along with the traditional systems in the IAF.

"Military application (in space) is only beginning to find a foothold in this country," he said.

In what seemed an obvious reference to China, the Indian Air Force chief — without naming any country — said that there was an exponential expansion of space capability by some countries while their "intent" seemed "opaque". He added that this created "serious doubts".

India had announced in June this year that it had set up an "integrated space cell under the aegis of the integrated defence services head quarters" to counter "the growing threat" to its space assets.

Defence minister A.K. Antony had stated in June this year that India wanted to "utilise space for peaceful purposes" and remain committed to the policy of non-weaponisation of space but had added that "offensive counter space systems like anti-satellite weaponry, new classes of heavy lift and small boosters and an improved array of military space systems have emerged in our neighbourhood".

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rupesh » 08 Aug 2008 10:25

India may test futuristic jets by 2015
8 Aug 2008, 0315 hrs IST, Rajat Pandit,TNN

NEW DELHI: India hopes that the first developmental flight of the stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), to be co-developed with Russia, will take place by 2015-2016.

The FGFA, as envisaged by IAF to fulfil its futuristic requirements, will have a lethal mix of super-manoeuvrability and supersonic cruising ability, long-range strike and high-endurance air defence capabilities. Apart from a ‘‘minimal’’ radar tracking signature to impart stealth, the FGFA will have ‘‘a very high degree of network centricity’’, as also multi-spectral reconnaissance and surveillance systems — optical, infra-red, laser and radar sensors.

‘‘The FGFA should fly for the first time by 2015 or so. If it manages to do so earlier, then it will be a big achievement. Negotiations with Russia are making good progress, with the details being worked out,’’ IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major told TOI on Thursday.

‘‘It is very complex to design and develop an FGFA. The FGFA we want will be an entirely new platform, with many additional features, stealth being an important one,’’ he added. The ongoing negotiations with Russia flow from the FGFA agreement signed during the Indo-Russian inter-governmental commission on military-technical cooperation meeting, co-chaired by defence minister A K Antony and his Russian counterpart, last October.

The bone of contention is that Russia has already frozen the design parameters of its FGFA, the single-seater Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA, the first prototype of which is likely to take to the skies by 2009.

India, however, wants a twin-seater FGFA built to its requirements, which will obviously require several design changes. With the FGFA project expected to cost $8-10 billion, a cash-starved Russia is agreeable to the idea of having both single and twin-seater versions. ‘‘The various issues are being sorted out,’’ said an official.


There is only one operational FGFA in the world at present, the American F/A-22 ‘Raptor’, which comes at a whopping $142 million apiece. Another, the F-35 ‘Lightning-II’, in turn, is still under joint development by US, UK and seven other countries.

The most potent fighter in the IAF fleet currently is the Sukhoi-30MKI, which can be placed a little over fourth-generation, along with others like Eurofighter Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen and F/A-18 ‘Super Hornets’. While fourth-generation fighters typically revolve around multi-role capabilities, FGFA takes it forward by incorporating stealth technology, composite materials, supercruise, thrust-vectoring and integrated avionics as well.

Since it will take well over a decade for an Indo-Russian FGFA to become fully-operational, IAF is banking upon the 230 Sukhoi-30MKIs contracted from Russia at an overall cost of around $8.5 billion. Then, of course, there is also the mammoth $10.4 billion project to induct 126 new multi-role combat aircraft in IAF from 2012-2013 onwards.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/India_may_test_futuristic_jets_by_2015/articleshow/3339596.cms

Singha
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 08 Aug 2008 10:35

imho a pre-condition for our funding should be we agree to take the basic airframe , fcs and
engines from the pakfa project but are left with total choice upfront about avionics, radar,
payload and ecm. just give us the required spaces and electrical connections. this would
permit us from day1 to employ Indian or Israeli products like astra , el2052 and so on.
if Ru has something good, it can also be pulled in.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Raj Malhotra » 08 Aug 2008 19:45

It means squadron level entry for FGFA will be around 2020-22. Therefore I think that we should order another 200 Su-30MKI immediately to cover manufacturing period between 2014-2022. Let not close the production line prematurely like we did for Mig-21 & 27 and also I feel for jags

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 08 Aug 2008 19:48

Raj Malhotra wrote:It means squadron level entry for FGFA will be around 2020-22. Therefore I think that we should order another 200 Su-30MKI immediately to cover manufacturing period between 2014-2022. Let not close the production line prematurely like we did for Mig-21 & 27 and also I feel for jags

IAF won't be able to support that many two-seaters.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Raj Malhotra » 08 Aug 2008 20:03

Indian economy is expanding

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Malay » 08 Aug 2008 21:17

Raj Malhotra wrote:Indian economy is expanding

Doesnt mean we have to burn through the money. Oil prices have risen drastically, dont you think it already puts strain on the IAF's operating budget and training excersises. There's a great deal of difference between buying all the best the world has to offer and then to operate it later on.

A double engined plane has atleast 40% more operating costs per sortie.

They should get single engined planes if they feel that double engines are not a necessity. Best left upto the IAF.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kartik » 08 Aug 2008 21:27

Why do people forget that the per hour operating cost of the Su-30MKI will be almost double if not more, that of a single engined MiG-21 or Mirage-2000?

the IAF's fuel costs would already have soared with higher fuel prices and inducting any more heavy twin engined fighters is not that great a move. MiG-29 class twin engined fighters are cheaper to operate per hour and would act as good complements to the Su-30 fleet. Hence, the Rafale would be a perfect fit for the MRCA.

on a side note, recent reports of Rafale vs F-16 guns only dogfights in the US, have given a good indication of what the Rafale is capable of in WVR alone..it came off with a 3:1 ratio, which is pretty good against the nifty Viper.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby SaiK » 08 Aug 2008 21:35

Part of FGFA implementaion agreement should include complete transfer of tech and augmentation rights to modify the core engine [al-47[z?]]., and the radar parts. We should have complete rights to replace t/r modules from france, israel or our own. We should have complete rights to replace/modify thrusts especially enhancing our SC blade tech that we are maturing at snail pace.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 08 Aug 2008 21:59

Raj Malhotra wrote:Indian economy is expanding

I'm talking of two seaters, not double engined planes.
IAF won't be able to support that many two-seaters.

I meant because of unavailability of that many pilots. my madrassa maths tells me, at a rough estimate, you can man 400 single seater fighters with the flight crew of 200 mki's. (I know some are intended to be WSO and all that but still)

The FGFA for India is already slated to be twin seater, assuming a min 200 production run, would
IAF find enough pilots to man ~ 630 (230 mki + 200 Raj proposed + 200 FGFA) odd twin seaters ?? IAF already has a deficit in # of officers.
btw, it would be IAF to decide if it wants a single engined MCA or a double engined one, but I like the 2 engined ones. :)
(nothing technical about that !!)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby PaulJI » 08 Aug 2008 22:09

Acharya wrote:
chrslbrt (3 weeks ago) The IRST unit displayed on the SU-35BM demonstrator has enhanced detection capabilities of up to 90km, not 30km! Not a single western made fighter has anything like it.

According to Eurofighter, PIRATE can detect & range targets up to 150 km away.
http://www.eurofighter.com/downloads/Ki ... ng_AFM.pdf

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby SaiK » 08 Aug 2008 22:46

is that just a theory or more probable that twin engined fighters are more safer than single engined ones? if one fails, the pilot can still try a safe landing? is this still true with current FBW and digital controls and complete unstable support?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 08 Aug 2008 22:54

SaiK wrote:is that just a theory or more probable that twin engined fighters are more safer than single engined ones? if one fails, the pilot can still try a safe landing? is this still true with current FBW and digital controls and complete unstable support?

theory mostly. IIRC a study on this very topic was presented on BRF sometime ago and it said there is no appreciable difference.
anyway, very few twin engined fighters (if any) have engines powerful enough to keep them flying on one.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby JaiS » 08 Aug 2008 23:23

Acharya,

A source for your quote would be appreciated. Thanks.


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