The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 01 Jul 2008 07:08

Techs that seem to define a 5th Gen: stealth, supercruise, radar and sensors (as in AESA, which has a gen of its own that is as serious aspect), perhaps thrust vectoring and composite material.

F-22 and 35.

BTW, perhaps not the thread to do so, but I want to guestimate that the PAK-FA and the Indian the 5th Gen would be diff, the latter would be based on the PAK_FA.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby negi » 01 Jul 2008 09:36

My thoughts:

There is so less information (specially no confirmed real images of the PAKFA on the www), it is very difficult for us armchair types to speculate.Moreover do we even have an official press release from GOI/HAL which confirms and gives the latest status of the programme and our role in the same ?

Having said that fwiw my expectations from this venture are :

1. We build on our experience with the MKI and the LCA and get to refine and master processes and the technologies involved in the design of a 5th gen fighter (there is still lot more to learn and contribute despite the design being finalised ) . Yes proponents of indegenisation would say that we still wont get to master the blisks/SC stuff for the engine has already been finalized (at least for the prototype) ,but the positive side is working with a a country which has a history of manufacturing some brilliant flying machines produced till date, we would be cutting down the time to Induction significantly as compared to going all alone (specially going by the reported objectives and the nature of the programme ) which is what the IAF's primary concern is.


If our participation in this programme goes at least as the BRAHMOS venture , we would have at least mastered the technology to manufacture ,integrate and test a 5th gen fighter (assuming by that time we would have not only fixed issues with Kaveri but built upon it a family of state of the art LBP Turbofans ) , more importantly will become virtually self sufficient in the area of fighter aircraft design and manufacture.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JaiS » 17 Jul 2008 04:18

News regarding the 117S engine, which will also be used to power the PAK-FA initially. Translation credits: RoyFC.

117S Engines Developed by NPO Saturn Guarantee Successful Su-35 Flight Tests

Engines 117S-04 and 117S-05 were used for Su-35 test flights, which began on 19 February 2008.

Twenty flights have been made so far. The 117S engine has a thrust of 14.5 tonnes.

Additional tests will include automatic re-light in flight and in-flight re-light while the nozzles are rotating. Total operational time of the two engines so far has been 100 hours (including 15 hours on a flying laboratory.)

Source: 07.07.08, NPO Saturn

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Austin » 17 Jul 2008 08:31

JaiS wrote:Twenty flights have been made so far. The 117S engine has a thrust of 14.5 tonnes.


Ok this is 2 Ton increase on Thrust over the AL-31FP , did they achieve any weight reduction ? , what about sfc values for the new engine ?

I think for the 5th Gen Fighter they will have a new core to this engine which will achieve a thrust of 16 Tons.

The smart thing here is the dimension of the dimension of the engine remains the same , so they can power aircraft ranging from the basic Su-27 to PAK-FA , this should be very nice from maintenance and logistics point of view.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JaiS » 17 Jul 2008 18:50

Austin wrote:
Ok this is 2 Ton increase on Thrust over the AL-31FP , did they achieve any weight reduction ? ,



They have achieved an improvement in characteristics over baseline AL-31, while keeping the weight same(*) which is a considerable achievement.


(*)
NPO Saturn page on 117S


Такие высокие параметры, при сохранении габаритов и массы, достигаются за счет применения абсолютно нового высокотехнологичного компрессора низкого давления с увеличенными расходами воздуха и к.п.д., новой высокоэффективной турбины повышенной надежности с улучшенной системой охлаждения лопаток и системы управления двигателем с цифровым комплексным регулятором, интегрированной в систему управления самолетом.




translated as :


Improved parameters, while maintaining the dimensions and weight, were achieved by applying a completely new high-tech low-pressure compressor with the increase in costs and efficiency of air ( My note: improved SFC ? ), a new high-performance turbines increased reliability with improved cooling system blades and engine management with digital integrated regulator Integrated management system in the plane.


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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby asbchakri » 17 Jul 2008 19:04

JaiS wrote:
Austin wrote:
Ok this is 2 Ton increase on Thrust over the AL-31FP , did they achieve any weight reduction ? ,



They have achieved an improvement in characteristics over baseline AL-31, while keeping the weight same(*) which is a considerable achievement.

(*)
NPO Saturn page on 117S


Такие высокие параметры, при сохранении габаритов и массы, достигаются за счет применения абсолютно нового высокотехнологичного компрессора низкого давления с увеличенными расходами воздуха и к.п.д., новой высокоэффективной турбины повышенной надежности с улучшенной системой охлаждения лопаток и системы управления двигателем с цифровым комплексным регулятором, интегрированной в систему управления самолетом.




translated as :


Improved parameters, while maintaining the dimensions and weight, were achieved by applying a completely new high-tech low-pressure compressor with the increase in costs and efficiency of air ( My note: improved SFC ? ), a new high-performance turbines increased reliability with improved cooling system blades and engine management with digital integrated regulator Integrated management system in the plane.



So this new engine can be incorporated to SU 30 MKI without any modification to the plane? or has the Dimensions changed :?:

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JaiS » 17 Jul 2008 19:08

asbchakri wrote:So this new engine can be incorporated to SU 30 MKI without any modification to the plane? or has the Dimensions changed :?:


They are making the 117S, so that it can be used to upgrade various variants of the Su-30, including the MKI, with 'minimal' changes.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby asbchakri » 17 Jul 2008 19:22

JaiS wrote:
asbchakri wrote:So this new engine can be incorporated to SU 30 MKI without any modification to the plane? or has the Dimensions changed :?:


They are making the 117S, so that it can be used to upgrade various variants of the Su-30, including the MKI, with 'minimal' changes.


Excellent :D So this can be added to the MKI along with the new Radar during MLU. Good

Does this means SU 30 MKK will also get it :(
Last edited by JaiS on 17 Jul 2008 19:43, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: No need to use the "C" word

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JaiS » 17 Jul 2008 19:44

asbchakri wrote:
Excellent :D So this can be added to the MKI along with the new Radar during MLU. Good

Does this means SU 30 MKK will also get it :(


The MKK can also get it.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Austin » 17 Jul 2008 22:09

JaiS thanks , IMHO Su-30MKI has a great engine with excellent T/W ratio , I doubt we will ever need or go for an engine change through out its life. I will be happy if its gets Avionics/Datalink/Radar/EW and Weapon System upgrade through out its life cycle.

Certainly no matter what engine we add to MKI , it wont be supercruising with a reasonable payload

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Dmurphy » 18 Jul 2008 09:53

Here's a grim lookout on the Su-35 offer by the Russians.
What can be inferred from the offer under consideration is that the PAK-FA has been pushed back even further!

Hope i'm wrong here.

But there's a silverlining too...
It would mean better and longer involvement of Indians in the project.

Comments?

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Singha » 18 Jul 2008 10:34

afaik the MKI T:W with combat payload is less than EF (raptor is in a diff league).
maybe this 117S engine would impart greater T:W and also save some fuel.
if its a minimally invasive fix worth it to explore...we are still going to build
hundreds more of MKI.

extra thrust would also improve acceleration from 800kmph to Mach1.6 maybe?
(patrol speed -> attack speed) and climb rate from 0 -> 30 kft AGL.

for comparison the Raptor has around 4 tons more thrust than a 117S su35
and weighs around 8 tons less at typical takeoff?

no wonder it climbs and accelerates like nothing except a stripped down Mig25.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Prasad » 18 Jul 2008 11:07

I can't find a link to it but iirc there was an article that stated that the IRBIS power requirements were far greater than that of BARS and hence it couldn't be put on the MKI without an engine change. The new engine should generate enough power to run IRBIS and thats why while it was placed on the Su-35 BM, it wasn't considered as an upgrade on the MKI back then.
Will try to find a link to that article..

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Avid » 19 Jul 2008 00:57

How does induction of SU-35 by RuAF indicate delay in PAK-FA further?

IMO RuAF is inducting SU-35 out of dire need to replace some of its AF, and because it has resources available for purchase now. PAK-FA was "delayed" according to dates announced way back. It has only been a year (??) since India announced joining the PAK-FA project, and since then no changes in dates have been announced. Thus far - all indications since India's joining has been that the flight-testing will begin in 2009 and be completed by 2012/13. These dates were reconfirmed at Farnborough.

The current SU-35 appears to be a single seater version of the SU-30 and will likely replace the aging Mig-29s of RuAF. Can't possibly expect RuAF to replace its entire fleet of early flankers and Mig-29 to be replaced by only expensive PAK-FA. Another caveat - only first prototype of SU-35 has finished flight testing and two more prototypes are near complete and expected to begin flight testing. Only after completion of those will the production/induction begin. So, from all indications currently - the induction by RuAF will begin around the time PAK-FA is likely in mid-late testing stages.

About the 117S - appears the engine is being tested on SU-35. Though how it could be SU-35, I am uncertain because there is only one prototype thus far from news. Unless they are referring to the earlier designation SU-35 (which is different from the SU-35 in the recent news), or the 117S is also a shared designation for AL-37F

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JaiS » 19 Jul 2008 02:14

Avid wrote:How does induction of SU-35 by RuAF indicate delay in PAK-FA further?


I agree with you.

Avid wrote:About the 117S - appears the engine is being tested on SU-35.


Yes, the engine is being tested on the Su-35, and is also intended to the final engine for the production version of the Su-35.

Avid wrote:
Though how it could be SU-35, I am uncertain because there is only one prototype thus far from news.



While what you are saying is true ("there is only one prototype thus far from news"), the Russians are conducting a variety of tests using other engines.

See for example, this news from February 2008.


There were 200 hours of bench tests in order to guarantee a service life of 100 hours. There were 6,000 cycles of turning the rotating nozzle, including 16 hours of hot tests with simulated high-speed modes.

The 117S engine is a major upgrade of the AL-31F and has a thrust of 14.5 tonnes, which exceeds the figures of the basic engine by 2 tonnes.

There are five engines in the batch: 117S-01 is for special tests in assuring first flight; 117S-02 is for gas dynamic stability and extended tests for assuring first flight; 117S-03 went to the flight laboratory where strain gauge measurements of the low pressure chamber under takeoff conditions were taken; 117S-04 and 117S-05 have been delivered for the Su-35 flight. Three more are to be built for a second Su-35. Tests of the first engine’s final layout are to begin this month and delivery of the engines for the second airplane are planned for March – April.




Avid wrote:Unless they are referring to the earlier designation SU-35 (which is different from the SU-35 in the recent news),


No, they are not referring to the earlier configuration of the Su-35, but the newer non-canard configuration of the Su-35.

Avid wrote:or the 117S is also a shared designation for AL-37F


It is my understanding that 117S is the designation for what was once called AL-37 FU.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Avid » 19 Jul 2008 02:45

Thanks Jai.

It does appear that the 117S designation is for the engine under testing - production equivalent is AL-37FU - not sure if and how it is different from AL-37F which is being spec-ed as the engine that will power the SU-35.

From what I could gather
- 117S has components being developed for the AL-41 which will power the PAK-FA
- Uncertain if all components of AL-41 thus far being tested in 117S will make it into AL-37F (or AL-37FU)
- About the SU-35 prototypes being used for 117S testing -- clearly not all of these are not the current SU-35 design since there is only one SU-35 prototype of current design and it started test flying in Feb 2008. The 117S entered flight testing in 2004 on then design of SU-35.

Talk about Russians having beaten Indians in confusing the world with their shared designations such as Sagarika and S-37, SU-37, SU-35, SU-35BM, and what not!

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JaiS » 19 Jul 2008 18:09

Hi,

Avid wrote:It does appear that the 117S designation is for the engine under testing -


If you do not mind me asking, what leads you to this conclusion? The reason for this question is that I haven't been able to find a source for the same, and also the fact that in the recent past, I have not seen _any_ reference to AL-37FU being made by either Sukhoi, or NPO Saturn. Furthermore, NPO Saturn does not have a single reference for AL-37 on it's website. Finally, if you check out the NPO Saturn page on it's military engine offerings, you will see that:

1. AL-55 is mentioned clearly even though it is still in testing.
2. There is no entry for AL-37

I checked out the claimed specifications for AL-37 FU ( which all seem to be pretty old links), and they match the specifications of the 117S engine very closely ( specifications in terms of fan diameter, maximum thrust with afterburning and service life ).

These observations lead me to the belief, that it's actually the other way round, i.e. AL-37FU was the initial designation for the engine and it is / will be 117S for the final in-production example.

Avid wrote:not sure if and how it is different from AL-37F which is being spec-ed as the engine that will power the SU-35.


Sources for the underlined statement please. All recent announcements, including Su-35 manufacturer's official brochure identify 117S as being the engine for powering the 'new' Su-35.

AL-37FU = AL-37 engine, having afterburner(F) and thrust vectoring(U)

AL-37F = AL-37 engine, having afterburner(F)


Avid wrote:- 117S has components being developed for the AL-41 which will power the PAK-FA


Agreed.


Avid wrote:
- About the SU-35 prototypes being used for 117S testing -- clearly not all of these are not the current SU-35 design since there is only one SU-35 prototype of current design and it started test flying in Feb 2008.



While Su-27M Bort 710 was indeed used for the initial test flights of 117S, I am not sure if it is being used currently.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Dhanush » 11 Aug 2008 23:37

According to this link (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 339596.cms), IAF seems to prefer twin-seater configuration. Could anyone explain why IAF prefers twin-seater configuration for FGFA, especially when RU prefers single-seater?

The only thing I can think of is that we do not need additional trainer planes in a separate configuration and ofcourse the maintenance overhead of two variants can be avoided.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JimmyJ » 12 Aug 2008 01:18

Dhanush wrote:According to this link (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 339596.cms), IAF seems to prefer twin-seater configuration. Could anyone explain why IAF prefers twin-seater configuration for FGFA, especially when RU prefers single-seater?

The only thing I can think of is that we do not need additional trainer planes in a separate configuration and ofcourse the maintenance overhead of two variants can be avoided.


Isn't MCA going to be a single seater that is to replace single seaters like Mig 29, so why to have two single seaters...Also we gain a chance for design changes in PAK FA in two seater form, which otherwise is an already finalized single seater.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby namit k » 18 Aug 2008 22:11

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10239
sounds very good news indeed , it seems that India's participation in this project is not small and this is going brahmos way i.e. a successful project
The new fighter could cost anything between USD 10 and 12 billion, Indian officials want the aircraft to have super stealth and a very high degree network centricity
much of these capabilities would be comparable to f35 in 2015 ,but atleast we would be posing a tough competitor to f-22/35 .
getting super stealth and others things equivalent to f22 would only be possible in tranche-2 of pakfa.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby SaiK » 18 Aug 2008 23:06

actual good news is this, if true:-

For the first time, India also took up with Russia the offset arrangements in various armament deals concluded with that country.

Russia has so far "not entered or offered" in any offset arrangement with India, even though arms sales to New Delhi accounted for almost USD 5 to 10 billion over the past five years.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby saptarishi » 18 Aug 2008 23:38

http://72.14.235.104/translate_c?hl=en& ... VACdpmiSag

here is a great piece of information about pak-fa with great pictures from CHINESE INTERNET

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby namit k » 19 Aug 2008 18:11

even though the design models are artistic views and speculative,but one thing is for sure that recent Indo-Rus meet on pakfa was just to show India that design is ready , but airborne customizations on part of India and further adding stealth to it will carry on til 2010(hope the irbis is ready for battle by then) until it starts testing phase and induction after 2015 if there there is no hurry.
as for offsets, ruskies have to do whats the trend in market,when others are strengthening relations with Indian cos, Rus cant lay back from the treasure thats here for best defence deals in Indian interests

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Lisa » 21 Aug 2008 01:59

Jane's defence weekly reports that there is to be a significant delay in the
development and production of PAKFA. The article suggest that the
"development has hit technical industrial and political turbulence that may
push the aircraft's entry into series production out to 2015, some six years
after the first flight"

The article further says that the engine to be used will be 117S, i.e. a
derivative of AL-31F with a redesigned "hot section " to help cope with inlet
temperatures of 2000K. Total thrust is slated to be approx. 14.5 tonnes
and the Saturn design bureau will be in charge rather than the 15.3 tonne
from Salyut (the losing contender in the engine contest)

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 21 Aug 2008 07:08

"Indo Russia" PAK-FA?

Russian PAK-FA is late - perhaps.

Indian PAK-FA should be on time in 2015-20 time frame.

These should be two very different programs - just like the MKI and the non-MKIs.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Austin » 21 Aug 2008 08:03

The Russian PAK-FA was suppose to make first flight by 2009 and Indian 2 seater version by 2012 , so if Russian version gets affected the Indian one too will.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 06 Sep 2008 02:10

OK guys, here you go:

Su-35 reaches supercruise

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Kartik » 06 Sep 2008 04:06

Any guesses as to who will be one of the major customers for Su-35 technology? Sukhoi will now look to gain back some of the sunken cost and China will look to buy technology that it will then incorporate on the J-11B. I'd consider the Irbis to be on top of the Chinese want list, alongwith technology from the 117S engines that it may try to shoehorn into their 5th gen fighter program.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby kit » 06 Sep 2008 04:54

Right on .That will make sure India is committed to their PAK FA. Looking at the political scenario Russia will only be happy to cozy upto the Chinese. India s future seems to lie in the western camp.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby namit k » 06 Sep 2008 12:14

NRao wrote:OK guys, here you go:

Su-35 reaches supercruise

same engine will be used in PAKFA, they are just testing different techs on different platform and we will see a final product -pakfa altogether ....

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JaiS » 06 Sep 2008 19:25

Hi,

Lisa wrote:
Jane's defence weekly reports that there is to be a significant delay in the
development and production of PAKFA. The article suggest that the
"development has hit technical industrial and political turbulence that may
push the aircraft's entry into series production out to 2015, some six years
after the first flight"



Unfortunately, there is nothing "new" in that article. Everything within the article
which you have posted, has been said publically many times over before and has
infact also been reported in this thread. I guess Janes has tried to "create" some
"news" on the PAK FA.


NRao wrote:"Indo Russia" PAK-FA?

Russian PAK-FA is late - perhaps.

Indian PAK-FA should be on time in 2015-20 time frame.



NRao,

Can you please explain what you mean when you say that the Russian PAK FA is late while the Indian PAK FA is on time, since Indian PAK FA will come later than the Russian PAK FA.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby skher » 06 Sep 2008 23:59

JaiS wrote:Can you please explain what you mean when you say that the Russian PAK FA is late while the Indian PAK FA is on time, since Indian PAK FA will come later than the Russian PAK FA.


All time is relative.

Thus,with respect to Russia/Soviet Union,the PAK-FA project has been a delayed one - it was started as an answer to F-22 Raptor back in 1986.

But for us,it will be on time-since IAF does not have an active 5th-generation aircraft development project as of now...buying LCA time to mature.

Hopefully; the IAF will be composite in its thinking, not iron-curtained like the DGMF, and would induct the Tejas in large numbers once it matures.

It would then have confidence to let ADA evolve the MCA, at least as a VTOL autonomous UCAV.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby srai » 07 Sep 2008 02:02

Dhanush wrote:According to this link (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 339596.cms), IAF seems to prefer twin-seater configuration. Could anyone explain why IAF prefers twin-seater configuration for FGFA, especially when RU prefers single-seater?

The only thing I can think of is that we do not need additional trainer planes in a separate configuration and ofcourse the maintenance overhead of two variants can be avoided.


It's a growing trend to have 2-seater planes because as the fighters become true multi-roles and longer-ranged the workload on a pilot becomes too great. Yes the automation has been increasing but so has the threats on the battlefield as well as the complexity of the tasks. In critical situations, these multi-taskes of flying, avoiding danger, searching/finding/locking on target, firing, etc. become too much for one person. It's one of the main reasons French AF decided to change their Rafale order mostly to the B, 2-seater version. You see this with the F-15E/S/K as well as with MKI, and even the proposed F-22B (LR ground attack version) etc.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 07 Sep 2008 02:32

JaiS wrote:Hi,

Lisa wrote:
Jane's defence weekly reports that there is to be a significant delay in the
development and production of PAKFA. The article suggest that the
"development has hit technical industrial and political turbulence that may
push the aircraft's entry into series production out to 2015, some six years
after the first flight"




NRao wrote:"Indo Russia" PAK-FA?

Russian PAK-FA is late - perhaps.

Indian PAK-FA should be on time in 2015-20 time frame.



NRao,

Can you please explain what you mean when you say that the Russian PAK FA is late while the Indian PAK FA is on time, since Indian PAK FA will come later than the Russian PAK FA.


Your question seems to answer itself.

Even if the Russian PAK-FA is delayed, one should not expect it to impact the Indian one, which is expected to come out l8r anyways.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby PaulJI » 07 Sep 2008 03:12

srai wrote:It's a growing trend to have 2-seater planes because as the fighters become true multi-roles and longer-ranged the workload on a pilot becomes too great. Yes the automation has been increasing but so has the threats on the battlefield as well as the complexity of the tasks. In critical situations, these multi-taskes of flying, avoiding danger, searching/finding/locking on target, firing, etc. become too much for one person. It's one of the main reasons French AF decided to change their Rafale order mostly to the B, 2-seater version. You see this with the F-15E/S/K as well as with MKI, and even the proposed F-22B (LR ground attack version) etc.

It was a growing trend, but lately that trend has gone into reverse. The F-22 & F-35 are single-seat only, Gripen, J-10, F-2, JF-17 & Typhoon are mainly single-seat. The F-22B proposal was shelved.

BTW, the decision to order 60% of Rafales as two-seaters was reversed, both on grounds of cost, & because it is claimed that increased automation & improved cockpit ergonomics reduce pilot workload, rendering the lessons of 1991 out of date. All naval Rafales will now be single-seat, & most land-based.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JaiS » 07 Sep 2008 16:13

Hi,

NRao wrote:

Even if the Russian PAK-FA is delayed, one should not expect it to impact the Indian one, which is expected to come out l8r anyways.



... if and only if both programs are completely independent of each other ( which is incorrect ). In other words, if we take your line of reasoning, it is a possibility that the Indian version of PAK FA may be developed before the Russian version ( which again is not quite correct).

It seems to me that you are assuming a low level of inter-dependence between the Indian PAK FA and the Russian PAK FA. While there is bound to be a divergence in the requirements / design of both of them, the common aspects of their configuration will fly first and be validated on the Russian PAK FA. Any delay in the Russian version of PAK FA is bound to delay the Indian PAK FA as well.

Thus, IMHO, it is invalid to state that Russian PAK FA _could be_ delayed while Indian PAK FA _should_ be on time ( and what metrics are you using for 'delayed ' / on-time ?) .

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 07 Sep 2008 18:40

JaiS,

Please, ................

Even in my first post I was very cautious .................. I did state "perhaps". I was only dealing with it at a very, ver, very high level. And, was only TRYING to impart that the two may not be dependent.

I have no interest in micro managing the expectations, etc of PAK-FA. It will come when it will.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Raj Malhotra » 07 Sep 2008 19:38

I think that squadron level entry into IAF of PAKFA is atleast as far away as in 2020

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby neerajb » 07 Sep 2008 20:48

JaiS wrote:
asbchakri wrote:So this new engine can be incorporated to SU 30 MKI without any modification to the plane? or has the Dimensions changed :?:


They are making the 117S, so that it can be used to upgrade various variants of the Su-30, including the MKI, with 'minimal' changes.


It mounts the fan with a 3 % larger diameter (932 mm over 905 mm), advanced high- and low-pressure turbines and all-new digital control system.


http://frontierindia.net/npo-saturn-finishes-endurance-tests-for-s-117-engine-meant-for-su-35

If I am not wrong the engine cowling is placed as close to the fan perimeter as possible for reasons of efficiency. In commercial engines it looks like as if the fan is brushing against the inner walls. So how our MKI is going to absorb this fan diameter change with 'minimal' changes?

117S essentially provides an increase of dry thrust by 800 kgs and wet thrust by two tons using exotic turbines (higher turbine temperature) and bigger fan (for more thrust and more air for afterburner).

Cheers....

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby JaiS » 09 Sep 2008 00:20

Hello Neeraj,

The 117S has been actively promoted to China for upgrade of their existing Su-27/30 fleet. To me, it means that the upgrade of existing Flanker fleets using the 117S should not be overly complicated.

NRao,


And, was only TRYING to impart that the two may not be dependent.



I have a difference of opinion regarding that but since you do not appear to be interested in what you call the 'micro-management' part of PAK FA schedule, we can perhaps discuss it later.

:)


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