Caucasus Crisis

[Karan Dixit]

Poland, Ukraine and other neighbors of Russia will have to carefully assess how far Washington is willing to go for them or else they will have a Zen moment like Saakashvili. Before antagonizing Russia any further, they should close their eyes for a moment and meditate. They should visualize death and destruction a nuclear war will cause. This will put things in proper perspective for everyone involved.

[Y. Kanan]

An article on the military aspects of this conflict (from the Russian point of view). This is a pretty harsh self-critique and lessons-learned sort of article, quite interesting:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/1 ... 369809.htm

[shyamd]

Back-door US-Russian contacts to de-escalate war of words - after Moscow threatens to nuke Poland

Russia considers nuclear missiles for Syria, Mediterranean, Baltic

[Deans]

An article on the military aspects of this conflict (from the Russian point of view). This is a pretty harsh self-critique and lessons-learned sort of article, quite interesting:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/1 ... 369809.htm

Kanan,
Moscow Times is probably not the best source for an analysis. It is published for expats and most of the reporters are non Russian, who are unlikely to have visited the battlezone.
The content is factually correct where they have quoted from the Russian MOD or mainstream media, but they seem to have quoted selectively. For e.g

- Georgian SU-25's had Israeli avionics, but they still flew badly. 3 of the 7 were shot down
by Igla's.
- Russian airforce lost 4 aircraft which is remarkably low, considering the number of sorties
flown. 1 was downed by friendly fire.
- Georgian's and Russians had a core of non-conscript soldiers as the article correctly
points out. The difference was that Russia's conscripts performed better. Georgian
units panicked during the Russian advance into Gori, turning what should have been
planned withdrawl into a rout.
- The Russian general had his convoy ambushed (not attached from the air) by an
Israeli trained commando unit. If the intention was to kill the general, the ambush failed,
as he was only wounded. The whole commando unit was wiped out.
(there were journaists in the convoy to cover the fighting). This also indicates that
this time, senior Russian officers tried to lead from the front, rather than sit at HQ.
- Georgian T-72's had Israeli upgrades, they were superior in night fighting, but they still
lost to a `basic' Russian T-72 force of roughly the same quantity, which had to
attack at short notice, with no preliminary recon. (Russian air superiority helped).

[Gerard]

Geoffrey Wheatcroft: Why are we pretending we would fight for Georgia?

[kshirin]

CNN just cut off the German Chancellor as she was poised to reply to a tricky question in her press conference with the Georgian, as ot whether there were differences of opinionwithin germany on the question.
on another note, is it good for us that Russia has also now dumped the principle of denying frivolous claims to national self-determination?

[Kati]

Time for Russia to deploy missiles in Venezuela and Peru to prevent the great
imperialist from meddling in their affairs.

[Igorr]

An article on the military aspects of this conflict (from the Russian point of view). This is a pretty harsh self-critique and lessons-learned sort of article, quite interesting:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/1 ... 369809.htm

I saw the proffesional explanaition of why the Georgian planes fly 5 days of conflict and have been not destroyed. There was a political decision to not bomb the airport of the capital. So they worked from civilian airport. The Russian losses in aviation were low despite its very high activity from low height. You can see a lot of Georgian technics destroyed on the roads from air. Indeed the georgians could demonstrate only 2 or 3 destroyed Russian planes, no helos. It's low even if comparing to Yugoslavia or Iraq.

[Karan Dixit]

GORI, Georgia (Reuters) - Russia announced to the West it would begin withdrawing forces from Georgia on Monday after a war that dealt a humiliating blow to the Black Sea state and raised fears for energy supplies to Europe.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080817/ts_ ... tia_dc_151

(Why is Russia pulling out? It does not make sense to me.)

[Gerard]

They will pull back into South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Their "MC" peacekeepers will patrol the 10km bufferzone until UN peacekeepers arrive.

[SwamyG]

Was this posted? Georgia's recklessness

[Gerard]

Leading article: Do not feed the bear's paranoia

[Gerard]

The new cold war hots up

[negi]

Russians have done a smart thing, they have punished Georgia to their satisfaction , I don't see RU having any imperialist instincts here and have smartly returned to their territory . All in all they have not left Unkil with any excuse for a substantial military build up in the region.

[Gerard]

They also avoid any insurgency that could bleed them.
The UN peacekeepers in the buffer zone will be responsible for keeping the Georgians at bay

[Y. Kanan]

All in all they have not left Unkil with any excuse for a substantial military build up in the region.

As if the US has ever needed one...

The complete lack of any external threat from 1990 onwards didn't stop the US military buildup of the last 18 years from reaching the point where their military spending now comprises nearly 60% of the entire world total.

The US is going to bully, intimidate, undermine, and invade anyone it damn well pleases regardless of whether its justified or not. If sufficient excuse or provocation fails to present itself you can always invent one.

[rsingh]

Sorry guys, been never good at writing essays. Here is straight to the pt my interpretation of the events as I understand.

Super power (Russia)cornered by another superpower(US) using proxy Musharraf. The out come

Events as of now
-Russia teaches lesson to proxy.......to warn other wanabe Munnas. Takes step to enhance it operational capability in the same theater in case of future hostilities.
-Tries to create (raise) new proxies against US......in its own backyard.
-Poland,Baltic states and Germany (surprise) are making noise against Russia. Angela whatever has openly backed Georgia's case for NATO.

Best outcome
Things cool down. Russia is satisfied and no NATO for Ukraina or Georgia
Worst outcome
Georgia in Nato by Dec 2008 and Ukraina on fast track. Poland teases Russia. Georgia raise temp in breakaway regions. I see Russian show of force in a big way. There are chances of Nuclear weapons being used. That is the way cornered superpower respond.
In any case India China stand to gain by tu-tu-mein-mein between Russia and US.

World is not the same as it was during cold war days. Russia is no longer propelled by ideology. US has firm grip of majority of the countries. It will be very hard for Russia to find a solid and reputed proxy against US. Interesting times ahaed.

[enqyoob]

The complete lack of any external threat from 1990 onwards didn't stop the US military buildup of the last 18 years

You clearly do not understand the severity of the threat from Jamaica. They have sent the 10th hurricane in two years towards the US. Even now, refugees are racing to escape the air-and-sea invasion hurtling towards the Florida Keys.

[Rahul M]

Russia, Georgia, & Disinformation
analysis by SOC of keypubs in his blog. worth a read, he is a pretty knowledgeable fellow.

[Y. Kanan]

Kanan,
Moscow Times is probably not the best source for an analysis. It is published for expats and most of the reporters are non Russian, who are unlikely to have visited the battlezone.
The content is factually correct where they have quoted from the Russian MOD or mainstream media, but they seem to have quoted selectively. For e.g

- Georgian SU-25's had Israeli avionics, but they still flew badly. 3 of the 7 were shot down
by Igla's.
- Russian airforce lost 4 aircraft which is remarkably low, considering the number of sorties
flown. 1 was downed by friendly fire.
- Georgian's and Russians had a core of non-conscript soldiers as the article correctly
points out. The difference was that Russia's conscripts performed better. Georgian
units panicked during the Russian advance into Gori, turning what should have been
planned withdrawl into a rout.
- The Russian general had his convoy ambushed (not attached from the air) by an
Israeli trained commando unit. If the intention was to kill the general, the ambush failed,
as he was only wounded. The whole commando unit was wiped out.
(there were journaists in the convoy to cover the fighting). This also indicates that
this time, senior Russian officers tried to lead from the front, rather than sit at HQ.
- Georgian T-72's had Israeli upgrades, they were superior in night fighting, but they still
lost to a `basic' Russian T-72 force of roughly the same quantity, which had to
attack at short notice, with no preliminary recon. (Russian air superiority helped).

Interesting stuff... sources?

[NRao]

Russia, Georgia, & Disinformation
analysis by SOC of keypubs in his blog. worth a read, he is a pretty knowledgeable fellow.

Try this:

A Two-Sided Descent Into Full-Scale War

(signon required)

By Peter Finn
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, August 17, 2008; A01



TSKHINVALI, Georgia, Aug. 16 -- Nine days ago, late in the afternoon of Aug. 7, Georgian tanks, artillery and infantry began moving out of bases in Georgia and toward South Ossetia, a zone long held by separatists who are backed by Moscow.

About 800 troops from Georgia's 4th Battalion left a base in Tbilisi, the Georgian capital, that Thursday afternoon, according to Georgian Defense Minister Davit Kezerashvili. Later that day, units armed with the BM-21 Grad, a multiple rocket system whose World War II version was known as Stalin's Rain, moved out of their base in Gori, about 40 miles away.

As the Georgian units approached the contested zone from the south, Russian army forces were massed just to its north, separated from it only by the 4,000-yard-long Roki Tunnel through the Caucasus Mountains. The Russian units were receiving intelligence reports about the Georgian movement. About 8 p.m., Russian military aircraft took off and skirted Georgian airspace, staying just outside it, according to Kezerashvili.

For days, separatists and Georgian troops had skirmished along the border, but this movement of armor was a major new development.

Georgia and Russia were on a collision course. In three hours, full-scale war would begin.

With a huge air, land and sea campaign, Russian forces routed the Georgians in the following days and advanced far into Georgian territory, overrunning major cities and military bases. An ensuing uproar in the West, accusing Russia of using excessive force, has clouded details of how the war began.

Interviews with Georgian leaders, Russian officials, Western diplomats and Bush administration officials, together with briefings by the Russian military in Moscow, show that a series of escalating military moves by each side convinced the other that war was imminent.

The Georgian leadership took steps, sometimes against the advice of its allies, sometimes without telling them, that accelerated the advance to a war in which Georgia could never prevail, according to a U.S. account. But the key question -- who finally triggered full conflict? -- remains in dispute. The Georgians said they staged their offensive only after Russian troops began streaming into South Ossetia and the Russians saying they advanced only after the Georgians began attacking South Ossetia's capital, Tskhinvali.

The Kremlin, long angry over Georgia's close ties with the United States and Western Europe, may have been itching for a fight, as Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili has long insisted. If so, Saakashvili facilitated the lopsided matchup. Some Western officials say that although he faced clear provocations, he was reckless. "If it was a trap, and there's good reason to think it was, he walked right into it," one Western diplomat said, speaking on the condition of anonymity.

In Georgia, popular anger against Russia remains high, and Saakashvili has yet to be called to account for the decision to assault Tskhinvali, a small city in which thousands of civilians were forced into their cellars by shelling.

Russian officials say 2,000 people died in Tskhinvali. That figure has been described as inflated by human rights groups. But there unquestionably was a large toll of civilian deaths and injuries, which has outraged Russia and shocked Georgia's Western allies.

"It's deplorable, simply deplorable, to fire on civilians like that, and illegal," said Matthew Bryza, the U.S. special envoy to the region, in an interview. "It's horrible."

A Long Preamble

South Ossetia, an area the size of Rhode Island, is dominated by Ossetians, an ethnic group distinct from the country's majority Georgians. The province secured de facto independence from Georgia after a short, vicious war in the early 1990s. The two sides signed a cease-fire, but true peace never set in. The world denied formal recognition to the separatist mini-state, but Russia forged close links with it, providing aid, passports for South Ossetians and a peacekeeping force.

Earlier this year, two distant developments angered Russia. Western countries overrode Russian objections and endorsed independence for Kosovo, the separatist province of Serbia, and the NATO alliance, meeting in Bucharest, the Romanian capital, announced that Georgia might one day become a member, although it put off formal steps toward that goal. In April, Vladimir Putin, then the Russian president, upgraded ties with the separatist governments in South Ossetia and Abkhazia to a semiofficial level. Over the objections of Georgia and NATO, he sent troops into Abkhazia, saying the province feared a Georgian attack.

A Russian fighter plane, violating Georgian airspace, shot down an unmanned Georgian spy plane that had been sent -- despite the cease-fire agreement -- on a surveillance mission, according to U.N. investigators. In July, during a visit to Georgia by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, two Russian warplanes flew into Georgian airspace.

Dmitry Sanakoyev, a South Ossetian leader willing to work with the authorities in Tbilisi, survived an assassination attempt in July.

"In the summer, we witnessed an increasing number of incidents -- explosions, shooting," said a European diplomat, adding that South Ossetia's military "professionalism" was beginning to grow.

South Ossetian leaders declined to attend talks with Georgian leaders in Helsinki, Western diplomats said. The South Ossetians said the Georgian negotiator's title, minister of state for the reintegration of Georgia, was insulting; Temur Yakobashvili, the minister, expressed willingness to change his title to special envoy, but to no avail.

On Aug. 1, an explosion in a small patch of South Ossetia held by the Georgians since the 1990s war wounded five Georgian policemen. Over the next two days, a series of shootings killed six Ossetians and five Georgians, according to figures compiled by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). Each side accused the other of initiating artillery attacks and using heavier weapons.

Thursday, Aug. 7

On the morning of Aug. 7, after a night of Ossetian artillery fire, Yakobashvili said, he traveled to Tskhinvali for a meeting with the separatists that the Russians had convened at a Russian peacekeeping base. "Nobody was in the streets -- no cars, no people," he said in a conference call with reporters Aug. 14. "We met the general of the Russian peacekeepers, and he said that the separatists were not answering the phone." Yakobashvili left.

Around 2 p.m. that day, Ossetian artillery fire resumed, targeting Georgian positions in the village of Avnevi in South Ossetia. The barrage continued for several hours. Two Georgian peacekeepers were killed, the first deaths among Georgians in South Ossetia since the 1990s, according to Georgian Prime Minister Lado Gurgenidze, who spoke in a telephone briefing Aug. 14.

"Where were the Russian peacekeepers when the South Ossetians were shelling the Georgian positions?" said Bryza, the U.S. envoy. ". . . They didn't lift a finger to stop them."

Russian officials say the Georgians fired back during the day; Georgians say they restrained themselves.

But by evening, Kezerashvili said, the Georgian side had had enough.

"At 6, I gave the order to prepare everything, to go out from the bases," he said in an interview Aug. 14 at a Georgian position along the Tbilisi-Gori highway. Kezerashvili described the movement of armor, which included tanks, 122mm howitzers and 203mm self-propelled artillery, as a show of force designed to deter the Ossetians from continuing to barrage the Georgian troops' positions inside South Ossetia.

Western officials in and around South Ossetia also recorded the troop and armor movement, according to a Western diplomat who described in detail on-the-ground reports by monitors from the OSCE. The monitors recorded the movement of BM-21s in the late afternoon.

"On Thursday -- Thursday afternoon -- they noticed equipment and troops on the road, rolling to Karaleti," a Georgian village near Gori, the diplomat said. Kezerashvili said the BM-21s moved Thursday night.

At 7 p.m., with troops on the march, Saakashvili went on national television and declared a unilateral cease-fire. "We offer all of you partnership and friendship," he said to the South Ossetians. "We are ready for any sort of agreement in the interest of peace."

About 9 p.m., the Ossetians complained to Western monitors about the military traffic, according to a diplomat in Tbilisi.

Russian troops and armored units had been in Russian territory just north of South Ossetia for an annual summer military exercise. This year, they stayed in the area after completing the maneuvers. Russian intelligence officers were receiving reports about the movement of Georgian armor, and they interpreted it as the beginning of an offensive, according to a Russian official.

Saakashvili's televised call for a cease-fire, coinciding with the movement of so many troops and weapons, was perceived in Moscow as an attempt to buy time while Georgian forces positioned themselves for a major attack.

"From 18:00, Georgian troops from inner districts are relocated to the area" near the South Ossetian border, Anatoly Nogovitsyn, a colonel-general on the Russian General Staff, told reporters in Moscow at a retrospective briefing. "More than 20 armored units arrive."

Kezerashvili said that around the same time, Georgians were receiving intelligence reports suggesting that Russian troops were gearing up to move south through the Roki Tunnel. Russia denies any such muster.

In a series of phone calls, Saakashvili contacted Western and NATO leaders and diplomats. "I started to call frantically," he said in an interview with foreign journalists.

Bryza, the U.S. envoy, said: "Our response was, 'Don't get drawn into a trap. Don't confront the Russian military.' " Bryza said he was not told that Georgian armor was already moving toward the South Ossetian line and continued to do so even after Saakashvili declared a cease-fire.

The earlier movement of Russian troops into Abkhazia and around other terrain to the north was feeding sentiment among leaders in Tbilisi for a military response, Bryza said. "They felt they had to defend the honor of their nation and defend their villages. It was a very dangerous dynamic. That was part of an action-reaction, 'Guns of August' scenario that we tried to defuse."

According to Kezerashvili, on Thursday night, about three hours after Saakashvili's televised address, a new round of South Ossetian shells struck a Georgian peacekeeping position in the village of Sarabuki and an administration building in the village of Korta used by Sanakoyev, Tbilisi's South Ossetian ally.

Russia denies any such late-night bombardment. OSCE monitors in Tskhinvali also did not record any outgoing heavy artillery fire from the South Ossetian side at that time, according to a Western diplomat with access to the organization's on-the-ground reporting.

At 11 p.m., Saakashvili said, he received the first reports that Russian units were passing through the tunnel.

"We started to check, and around 11:50, I got confirmation that Russian armor was coming in," Saakashvili said. "So what we do now? I said, 'Now we respond with fire.' " To do otherwise, he said, would have been to cede Georgian sovereignty. He had no choice, he said.

In calls to the U.S. administration, Georgian officials did not convey the scope of what was to come, Bryza said. "During these intense exchanges between the leadership here and me, when they said they were going to lift the cease-fire, we said, 'Don't put your forces in harm's way, because you cannot prevail,' " he said. "And the response was: 'We understand that. We are going to shell the road on which the Russians are approaching and try to keep them back.' That's what they said."

The Russians, however, deny entering the Roki Tunnel until after Georgia began a full attack on Tskhinvali. The Russian Defense Ministry and the Russian prime minister's office did not respond to requests for the exact time of the entry into the tunnel or information on the subsequent movement of Russian troops.

A U.S. official familiar with intelligence from the region said the administration could not put a time on the Russian move into South Ossetia. "It's not clear," the official said. "You'd have to have had somebody there with a stopwatch, and something overhead at precisely that moment."

Friday, Aug. 8

"This is unfortunately when everything started," said Kezerashvili, the Georgian defense minister. "At 12 at night."

Georgian forces fired artillery rounds into Tskhinvali, which sits in a hollow. They attacked villages on surrounding higher ground. By 1 a.m., they were shelling the road along which a Russian column of more than 100 vehicles, including tanks and other armored vehicles, was moving south from the Roki Tunnel.

The column stopped for 90 minutes, Kezerashvili said.

By 2 a.m. on Friday, Aug. 8, Kezerashvili said, Georgian ground troops had advanced to the edge of Tskhinvali, and Georgian units had unleashed the BM-21 multiple rocket system, which can launch 40 rockets in 20 seconds.

Kezerashvili said the system was used to target separatist government buildings in the center of Tskhinvali, including the Defense Ministry and the Interior Ministry, where police forces have their headquarters. "It's not like a very open and big city, and I can tell you that we only targeted the places, the governmental organizations," Kezerashvili said.

But military experts said the BM-21 is a weapon for battlefield combat and not for use anywhere near civilians. "The BM-21 was designed to attack forces in large areas, and, as a consequence, if you use them in an urban environment, the likelihood of collateral damage is high," said retired Army Maj. Gen. William L. Nash, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations.

The artillery fire on the city continued until daylight, according to the reports of three OSCE monitors who were there in a cellar; their building was shelled and damaged. The three got out of Tskhinvali on Friday afternoon during a lull in fighting.

By 10 a.m. on Aug. 8, about 1,500 Georgian ground troops had entered the center of Tskhinvali; altogether, there were 9,000 Georgian troops in the larger combat theater. But within two hours, the Georgians were pushed back by Russian artillery and air attacks.

Georgian leaders maintain that the Russian counteroffensive accounts for much of the damage to Tskhinvali. "When aircraft started bombing our positions in Tskhinvali, this is when most civilian buildings were burned," Kezerashvili said. "Our soldiers were near civilian houses." Russians say the damage was the result of Georgian fire.

About three hours after pulling back, Georgian ground troops staged another push into the city. Russian aircraft, flying in pairs, with as many as eight planes attacking at once, hammered the Georgian lines, which were simultaneously under artillery fire. There were only a few direct clashes in the streets between Georgian and Russian troops, Kezerashvili said.

By 11 p.m. on Friday night, the Georgians had retreated for a second time.

Later, "we tried to enter Tskhinvali again, a third time," Kezerashvili said. "But when we entered, we got a very heavy attack. What the officers are telling me is that it was something like hell." Three hundred Georgian troops remain missing, with 160 confirmed dead, according to the Georgian Ministry of Defense.

Unable to replenish their ranks, Georgian forces grew exhausted as Saturday wore on. Fresh Russian troops continued to arrive. "I think they had something around 15- to 20,000 in the theater," Kezerashvili said. "I had only 9,000. They were already bringing in new soldiers. They had a chance to rest, and our soldiers were becoming tired and more tired because I had no additional forces to change them. After two days of battle, they were too tired."

Early Sunday morning, Aug. 10, Kezerashvili ordered his troops to fall back to Gori. The shooting war was effectively over.

Staff writers Karen DeYoung in Washington and Fredrick Kunkle in Moscow contributed to this report.

[NRao]

Bush, European Leaders Urge Quick Withdrawal From Georgia

By Fredrick Kunkle
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, August 18, 2008; A07



MOSCOW, Aug. 17 -- Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said Sunday that Russian forces will begin withdrawing on Monday to positions held before heavy fighting broke out over two separatist provinces. The announcement came after several days of mixed signals from the Kremlin about whether its tanks would head deeper into Georgia or head home.

The announcement came as President Bush and other Western leaders sharpened their demands that Russia keep its word on a revised truce or face political and economic isolation.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who negotiated the agreement as the current head of the European Union, spoke with Medvedev by telephone before the Kremlin's announcement. Sarkozy warned that continued delay could have "serious consequences" for Russia's relationship with the E.U.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel, at a news conference in Tbilisi, the Georgian capital, also said she expected "a very fast, very prompt withdrawal of Russian troops out of Georgia."

"This is an urgent matter," she said, with Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili at her side.

Merkel called for an international peacekeeping force to be sent to the region as soon as possible, and she reiterated strong support for Georgia's bid to join NATO.

Saakashvili praised Merkel as "brave" for supporting his country, and he accused other European nations of not seeing signs that Russia had intended for months to move against Georgia.

"Georgia will never give up a square kilometer of its territory," he said.

As he spoke, Russian tanks and soldiers held control of huge areas of the country, including its main highway, the strategic central city of Gori, the western city of Senaki and the Senaki air base.

A truce was first reached Wednesday after five days of fierce fighting in which the Georgian forces were routed. All sides said that one of the plan's six points called for the withdrawal to previous positions -- a condition that prompted celebration in the streets of Tbilisi.

But Russia forces showed no sign of leaving. The Kremlin has explained the delay by saying more time was needed to make unspecified "security arrangements." Russia's foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, challenged the document itself, saying the Russian and French heads of state had signed a document different from the written framework Georgia's president approved.

Medvedev said that Russia would return to zones inside Abkhazia and South Ossetia that its troops held before violence escalated, but that Georgian forces must also return to their previous positions.

Hours before Medvedev's announcement, Anatoly Nogovitsyn, a colonel general on the Russian General Staff, told reporters that Russian forces had taken control of the Inguri hydroelectric plant in Abkhazia. He said the move was a precaution against sabotage.

"We know very well that the Inguri hydropower plant supplies electricity to dozens of thousands of Georgian and Abkhaz homes, and we are well aware that strategic facilities of this kind could be targeted in provocations and even terror attacks," Nogovitsyn was quoted by Interfax as saying.

Nogovitsyn told reporters Saturday that troops were not ready to leave Georgia but were taking steps toward doing so.


Russian troops have been stationed in South Ossetia and Abkhazia to serve as peacekeepers under a 1999 agreement.

[Rahul M]

thanks for the link NRao. tho' I was posting Sean O' Connor's views as a perspective into the media disinformation campaign.

[enqyoob]

Makes it clear that Shaakashvili lied about everything, and that the Russian version is the one that fits the facts reported by the OSCE (whatever that is). The point not reported is that 30,000 refugees ran from S. Ossetia across into Russia, over a few days. So it really wasn't a case of Russians shelling S. Ossetia at all.

As for the claimed provocations by Russia and S. Ossetia, the OSCE versions seem to debunk those as Georgia lies very effectively.

The US claim that "you would have to have a stopwatch" to tell when the Russians came through the tunnel, rings blatantly false. That event would certainly have been of interest, and I am sure they know the answer since there must have been observers watching for that (the US had some 100 "advisors" among the Georgians, and many took part in the attack on Tkshinvali. Obviously it is not an answer that they want to be quoted as giving.

The one point that seems to be not in doubt at all, is that the Georgians DID commit war crimes in attacking Tkshinvali with field rocket batteries. That sounds like something left over from the Battle of Berlin, in the initial assault by Zhukov and Koniev across the river outside Berlin's approaches. It was deliberate mass murder.

The other allegation is that Georgian troops went around tossing grenades into basements. Clearly a lot of people did shelter in basements including the OSCE observers.

All in all, Shaakashvili is a candidate to beat Musharraf to the lamppost.

[John Snow]

You can bet on John Mcain being the next president, and it's in the best interest of Billary too.

This P crisis is custom made for the John the King in waiting.

[Raj Malhotra]

I think Russians use to accuse Georgia of aiding Chechens also. There has been no reports about this issue during this war/battle/skirmish

[Philip]

Thanks Rao for that piece.It is now clear from unbiased sources,as well as info from both east and west,that Saakashvilli for whatever reasons (most probably he thought that he could win a quick coup in S.Ossettia before international pressure,especially from his powerful western backers,Bush/NATO,organised a ceasefire before Russia could react) jumped the gun and was befittingly and calamitously clobbered,routed,decimated and humiliated on the battlefield as his Georgian troops fled in panic (like Roman legions before the Gauls of Aterix) by combined Russian forces -a good lesson for "Cold Start" tri-service operations.

"Shaky-willy",as we can now call the "clown of the Caucasus",was so desperate to save his backside,that his abject and pathetic hyperventilating on almost every news channel available showed him to be a leader made of straw.The west,desperate to save their Georgian puppet,who was helped to victory by another CIA led so-called "colour revolution" in former Warsaw pact states,have fulminated,ranted and raved against Russia ,spouting forth a tissue of untruths about the conflict.Russia's Dy.PM.Mr.Ivanov, clarly explained on the BBC's Hard Talk how Saakashvili was guilty of starting the conflict and had committed ethnic cleansing and genocide in S.Osettia.He cited UN conventions about protection of a country's civilians,where in S.Osettia the thousands of victims all had Russian passports! He also drew comparisons with Kosovo and the situ in Georgia and western hypocrisy over the issue.Ivanov clearly told the BBC that in the aftermath of Georgia's invasion,S.Osettia and Abkhazia would never remain part of Gerogia,thus achieving a major Russian strategic objective.Russian forces will now withdraw into secure bases in S,Osettias and Abkhazia,who will declare their independence at a suitable time,ready to punish Saakashvili if he tries another stunt.This will take some time in coming as his military machine is now modern art!

Russia has now achieved a signal victory in the post CW-1 era,perhaps history will label it as the first victory of CW-2.It has humiliated a US/NATO puppet,stayed within international/UN conventions in the bargain and has thrown a clear warning to other ambitious and adventurous ex-Soviet/WPact states,who are being seduced by the US and NATO to join their group and thus encircle Russia.It is now even clearer that what the US wants is the fall of the new modern Russia and its rulers and a vast complex game has been set in motion,that includes the death of Litvinenko (a failed attempt to smear Putin) using disgraced Russian oligarchs safely ensconced in the west,particularly Britain,where with the help of western intelligence agencies the downfall of Russia is being planned and played out.The west fears Russia's resurgence and its enormous oil and mineral wealth,which gives it enormous leverage over Europe dependent upon Russian supplies.All the attempts at by-passing Russian territory for pipelines from Central Asia have only been partially successful.As it stupidly embarks upon installing missiles in Poland,etc.Russia is going to counter these with supplies of missiles to anti-US nations,some inimical of Israel,apart from reinforcing its military aid to old pals like Cuba,etc.The west can only talk,in Georgia it has been Russia who has walked the walk!

If the west wants to prefer good relations with Russia,the only other superpower to Shaky-Willy,"a tick on the hair of the tail of a dog",then we are in for a very difficult decade ahead.

[Lalmohan]

the parallels with musharaf continue... the south ossetian action is 'tactically brilliant', just like kargil - perhaps its something wannbe strongmen learn in Demcraticisation 101 in the Culinary Institute's Masters programme for Dictator Conversion?

I doubt moscow is entirely blameless either, but the balance of blame falls more towards shaakashvilli

[NRao]

RM,

Sorry, I could worded it better.

Makes it clear that Shaakashvili lied about everything

That is not the story line any more!!!! IF one reads commentaries in Time, etc, the Bear is THE problem and needs containment. Outside of Henry K, everyone seems (Washpost seems exception) to be behind pushing Russian into the 15th century, because Russia started all this mess in 1999.

[Deans]

Kanan,
Moscow Times is probably not the best source for an analysis. It is published for expats and most of the reporters are non Russian, who are unlikely to have visited the battlezone.
The content is factually correct where they have quoted from the Russian MOD or mainstream media, but they seem to have quoted selectively. For e.g

- Georgian SU-25's had Israeli avionics, but they still flew badly. 3 of the 7 were shot down
by Igla's.
- Russian airforce lost 4 aircraft which is remarkably low, considering the number of sorties
flown. 1 was downed by friendly fire.
- Georgian's and Russians had a core of non-conscript soldiers as the article correctly
points out. The difference was that Russia's conscripts performed better. Georgian
units panicked during the Russian advance into Gori, turning what should have been
planned withdrawl into a rout.
- The Russian general had his convoy ambushed (not attached from the air) by an
Israeli trained commando unit. If the intention was to kill the general, the ambush failed,
as he was only wounded. The whole commando unit was wiped out.
(there were journaists in the convoy to cover the fighting). This also indicates that
this time, senior Russian officers tried to lead from the front, rather than sit at HQ.
- Georgian T-72's had Israeli upgrades, they were superior in night fighting, but they still
lost to a `basic' Russian T-72 force of roughly the same quantity, which had to
attack at short notice, with no preliminary recon. (Russian air superiority helped).

Interesting stuff... sources?

Kanan,
Some of the sources are quoted in the MT article itself. Some are from analysis & reports
on Russian TV & Press, either from defence analysts, or reporters on the field. I have tried to translate (albeit with my inadequate language skills), basic details from papers like Komsomoloskaya Pravda. A Russian site in English, one can access is Ria Novisti en.rian.ru

You are right in suggesting that the Media in Russia have have not been shy of criticising
aspect of the operation that did not go right. In particular, poor communications & inadequate
SEAD (Supression of enemy air defences).

[Shankar]

THE FIASCO OF GEORGIA AND PUTINS BRILLIANCE AS A MILITARY POLITICAL LEADER AND OUTSMARTED AMERICANS

In this simple chronicle, there is something quite mysterious: Why did the Georgians choose to invade South Ossetia on Thursday night? There had been a great deal of shelling by the South Ossetians of Georgian villages for the previous three nights, but while possibly more intense than usual, artillery exchanges were routine. The Georgians might not have fought well, but they committed fairly substantial forces that must have taken at the very least several days to deploy and supply. Georgia’s move was deliberate.
The .US is Georgia’s main ally. It maintained about 130 military advisers in Georgia, along with civilian advisers, contractors involved in all aspects of the Georgian government and people doing business in Georgia. It is inconceivable that the Americans were unaware of Georgia’s mobilization and intentions. It is also inconceivable that the Americans were unaware that the Russians had deployed substantial forces on the South Ossetian frontier. U.S. technical intelligence, from satellite imagery and signals intelligence to unmanned aerial vehicles, could not miss the fact that thousands of Russian troops were moving to forward positions. The Russians clearly knew the Georgians were ready to move. How could the United States not be aware of the Russians? Indeed, given the posture of Russian troops, how could intelligence analysts have missed the possibility that the Russians had laid a trap, hoping for a Georgian invasion to justify its own counterattack?
Grad.
The fire has been started from the Georgian villiges Tamarasheni, Ergneti and Zemo-Nikozi.
- 23.34 Georgian MLRS started work from Gori town and Atotsi.
- August,8. 3.25AM Georgian units captured Muguti and started moving towards Ossetian villiges Avnevi, Khetagurovo, Tskhinval
- 6.00AM the ground attack on Tskhinval has been started.
- The aim of Georgian ground formations was capturing Tskhinval and as a half of South Ossetian territory up to frontier Java-Tontabeti on the North.
- At 9.00AM, August, 8 Russian leadership decided to start an operation of peace enforcement.
- South Ossetia Republic was entered the battalion tactic groups of 19 motorized rifle division (135 regiment), of 58th Army. They have opened their battle formations near Java and Gufta. During Aug.8 2-3 battalions of 19 motorized division were deployed.
- till the evening Aug.8 the Russians deblocked the circuit road and heights near Kverneti, Tbeti, Dzari and came to the western outskirts of Tskhinval.
- In Tskhinval itself all the day Aug.8 were clashes between the Georgian army and Ossetian militias, while the Georgian tanks and infantry have captured the South part of the city. The Georgians have also attacked the positions of the Russian peace-keepers inside the City, while many civilians tried to take cover on the basis' territory. The most civilians didn’t have time to flew out and was hided in the bottom of their houses. Georgian tanks are lurking around repeatedly tried to demolish the basements. The ratio between the attacking troops and the defenders are 10:1.

- Aug.9 the Russian troops have follow the extrusion of Georgian invaders from Southern Tskhinval, Tamarasheni, Khetagurovo.
- During Aug.9 the Russian Army group in South Ossetia has grow up to two regiments level if including non-organic elements of 76 airborne division. The narrow Rok tunnel prevented more quickly deployment of Russian ground formations.
- Aug.9 after noon the regrouped Georgian infantry with armor support counter-attacked twice the Russian troops on the heights Eastern of Tskhinval and in Southern outskirts of the city, but didn’t success and retreated.
- Both side followed the counter-battery struggle over Aug.9 and tried to support infantry action.
- The aviation activity was high all over Aug. 8-9 from the both sides. The Georgian used Su-25 and Mi-24, and the Russian – Su-24, Su-25, Tu-22M3 and Mi-24 for less extend. The Cargo aviation transported additional troops (air-borne troops) to air-strips near Russian border and in Abkhazia. South Ossetia has no its own airstrips, the cargo helos could not yet operate because Georgian aviation activity, and all movement was via Rok tunnel.

- At evening Aug.9 the Georgian infantry and irregulars from the Georgian villages in S. Ossetia (Achabeti, Kurta) have been infiltrated the area western from Tskhinval and tried to cut the cirquite Dzar road. The main Northern 'Transkam' road wasn’t yet deblocked by Russian spetznaz and S.Ossetian infantrymen. During one of these multiple clashes the commander of 58th army was wounded.
- On other direction the Georgians again attacked Tskhinvali and the Prisky heights from the east of city, 1475m height particularly. The tanks were repelled, but the Georgian infantry again entrenched itself in Southern Tskhinval's outskirts.

- Aug.10 morning the position of the rivals were chaotic in the city South. During the day 503 rgmt of 19 rifle have moved south direction and together with S.Ossetian troops pushed the Georgians out of the city.
- Aug.10 S.Ossetian elements together with Russian speznaz were cleaning Georgian villages inside the enclave: Tamarasheni, Kekhvi, Kurta and Achabeti. Till afternoon the Georgian troops were finally pushes out of main Prisi heights controlling the city from the east. The northern road via Georgian villages has been controlled too.
- Both sides were building up their forces on the theater during Aug.10. Russian 135, 503 rgmts of 19 mech.rifle div and 70th rgmt of 42 mech rifle div have finished their full deployment.
- Two Chechen spetsnaz battalions Vostok and Zapad were deployed on the battlefield during Aug.10
- Aug.10. The Russian Arty group was filled up with 152mm 2C3 and MLRS Uragan.
- Aug.10 two tactical groups of 76th airborne storm division and 98th airborne division.

- The Georgian battle group on Gori-Tskhinvali direction reached 7,5-8 thousands personal, up to 100 tanks, ~100 SPHs and MLRS's.


- Till night Aug.10 the Georgian forces has retreated from the line of sight and have been concentrated near Gori and regrouped.
- During the night the Georgian arty was following the shelling of Tskhinval from 155 mm and MLRS. Russian Arty and aviation adjusted the counter-battery operation and also bombardments of retreated and regrouped Georgian troops.
- Russian aviation was keeping the air-dominance operation, made strikes on air-strips (excepting Tbilisi international airport) and all 6th Georgian brigades deep inside Georgian territory.
- Russian Black-Sea fleet blocked Abkhazian coast from Georgian boats intrusion. One Georgian high speed boat was sunk by Russian ASM.
- Aug.10. On the S-Ossetian front The Russian battle group has reached 9-10 thousands, while the Georgian – 12 000. Additional 2000 troops were on the way from Iraq.
- Aug.10 In Abkhazia the Russian troops were deployed up to the level of one division (9000 troops). The Abkhazian Army started operation in Kodor gorge.
- Russian airborn troops started moving from Abkhazia inside core Georgian territory with the aim to destroy the enemy's brigade in Senaki and to capture the main Georgian port Poti.

- Aug.11 the Russian army with Ossetian troops have finished the liberation of all S-Ossetian territory from regular Georgian troops. The Georgian population inside S-Osetia was evacuated by Georgian authorities too. The remnants of Georgian commandos and paramilitaries still operated inside S-Ossetian territory, and they were blocked by spetznaz.
- The Russian started making security zone near the S-Ossetian border, the supposed width of it is 22-30 km.

- Aug.12 was the last heavy fighting while the Russian troops with tank, arty and helos support have advanced towards Georgian city Gori, controlling the roads from West Georgia to Tbilisi, and have captured the Georgian big villiges on the road to Gori.
- On the Abhazian theater: Abkhazian army pushed Georgian troops out of Kodor gorge, and reached the old Abkhazian border with Georgia. The bases in Senaki (Western Georgia) and Poti was totally destroyed by Russian paratroopers.
- Aug.12 afternoon Russian president proclaimed finish of operation.

However after some panic information (may be Russian disinformation) Georgian president feared from further Russian advance and ordered the total retreat of all remnants of Georgian army towards Tbilisi 'to prevent Russian attack against the capital'. So in such situation big Georgian territory remained without any government and the loots were started. Russian commanders decided to help for Georgians to survive in such hard a time and Russian troops have entered Gori suburbs to prevent looting. In addition many abandoned tanks, SPHs, shells and RPGs were captured. Now they will serve the S-Ossetian security needs.

t is very difficult to imagine that the Georgians launched their attack against U.S. wishes. The Georgians rely on the United States, and they were in no position to defy it. This leaves two possibilities. The first is a massive breakdown in intelligence, in which the United States either was unaware of the existence of Russian forces, or knew of the Russian forces but — along with the Georgians — miscalculated Russia’s intentions. The second is that the United States, along with other countries, has viewed Russia through the prism of the 1990s, when the Russian military was in shambles and the Russian government was paralyzed. The United States has not seen Russia make a decisive military move beyond its borders since the Afghan war of the 1970s-1980s. The Russians had systematically avoided such moves for years. The United States had assumed that the Russians would not risk the consequences of an invasion.
They were of course totally wrong .Russia today may still not be the soviet union but in many ways far stronger in the global economic stage and a resurgent military. Russia today controls the worlds economic jugular -that of oil and gas . The indecisiveness of transition era is gone and the new generation of Russian soldiers does not care about Afghanistan anymore
Kosovo provided the moral backbone of the swift surgical strike .The US violated the concept of national sovereignty ,so no reason why Russia cannot encourage the breakup of Georgia for its own national interest and also prevent a humanitarian disaster in the making .We did the same in 1971 too remember and Bangladesh was born .
And let us not forget Ukraine and NATO overtures towards that nation and so called missile shield encirclement of Russian federation. This is the bears warning to the world about becoming too complacent and take for granted the paws which still retain quite sharp claws .
Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin once said that the fall of the Soviet Union was a geopolitical disaster. This didn’t mean that he wanted to retain the Soviet state; rather, it meant that the disintegration of the Soviet Union had created a situation in which Russian national security was threatened by Western interests. As an example, consider that during the Cold War, St. Petersburg was about 1,200 miles away from a NATO country. Today it is about 60 miles away from Estonia, a NATO member.
The war in Georgia, therefore, is Russia’s public return to great power status.-pure and simple .US is bogged down in Afghanistan and Iraq and in no position to take up the challenge .Europe is not even thinking of strongly protesting –it depends on Russian energy supply for its own survival . Rest of the world looks like is happy that at least some nation has the guts to defy the great United States and do it so well.
(some extracts from stratfor.com and war details from my Russian friends )
-Shankarosky

[Igorr]

The follow-up story about the American girl who was in S-Ossetia and has been evacuated, FoxNews anfair interview and the opinions:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lptVAbw5oos

[Gerard]

The media and Russia

[Singha]

Medvedev: Russia Will Crush Anyone Threatening its Citizens

By VOA News
18 August 2008

The president spoke Monday in Kursk, as a top Russian military spokesman, General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, said his country's troops had begun withdrawing from Georgia.

But foreign reporters and other witnesses in the Caucasus nation say Russian soldiers do not seem to be preparing to leave.

[SwamyG]

Washington's hypocrisy
Looks like the Russian lawyers have not been real idle, some one has been just waiting and lining up all the ducks for this to happen

[Gerard]

"We are against cruelty. We are against ethnic cleansing. A right to come back home should be guaranteed to the refugees. We all agree that murders, property destruction, annihilation of culture and religion are not to be tolerated. That is what we are fighting against. Bombardments of the aggressor will be mercilessly intensified."

"We appeal to all free countries to join us but our actions are not determined by others. I will defend the freedom and security of my citizens, whatever actions are needed for it. Our special forces have seized airports and bridges... air forces and missiles have struck essential targets."

Who do you think is the author of these words? Medvedev? Putin? No. The first quote belongs to Bill Clinton, talking about NATO operation against Yugoslavia. The author of the second quote is the current resident of the White House, talking about the U.S. intervention in Iraq.

[Singha]

Judo

[Igorr]

Something interesting. The Values and the peace-keeping:

Statement on the Situation in South Ossetia at the Meeting with Veterans of the Battle of Kursk
August 18, 2008

PRESIDENT OF RUSSIA DMITRY MEDVEDEV: You know that we have always been a peace-loving country. Practically at no time in its history did Russia, the Soviet Union, or modern Russia ever start hostilities. But even the most peace-loving country has to have combat-ready armed forces. You know the well-known saying that he who does not want to feed his own army will end up feeding someone else’s. We cannot allow this to happen.

We do not attack anyone. On the contrary, in a number of cases we are protecting the lives and dignity of people, our citizens and foreign citizens, through our presence as peacekeepers in different countries, including in states that emerged following the collapse of the Soviet Union.

I think it is absolutely clear to you that if someone thinks they can kill our citizens in impunity, kill our soldiers and officers who are peacekeepers, this is something we can never accept. Anyone who tries such a thing will meet with a crushing response. We have all the possibilities we need for this: economic, political and military. If anyone had such illusions a while ago, the time has now come to part with them.

We do not want any escalation in the international situation. We simply want respect, respect for our country, our people and our values. And we use our peacekeeping forces to ensure these decisions, to help our citizens and also those who are not Russian citizens but face a difficult situation.

There is no historical precedent for the aggression launched by the Georgian authorities 10 days ago. It goes beyond all understanding when a seemingly civilized country, whose armed forces have been modernized by another, highly developed country, uses its military machine against civilians (who, incidentally, it sometimes still considers its own citizens) and peacekeepers. We cannot allow this. I repeat that there can only be one answer to such actions.

[A_Gupta]

I think this is an absolute must-read to understand the dynamics of the US in this mess.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/18 ... 939/569608

A long excerpt follows, but it is only a part of the whole

(After 2002)
It is (or at least used to be) an established principle that countries with unresolved border disputes make bad candidates for NATO membership – since it creates a risk the alliance will be dragged into grubby territorial disputes under the guise of collective security. It doesn’t exactly help that in Georgia’s case one of the disputed borders was actually drawn by home boy Josef Stalin, who arbitrarily incorporated Abkhazia into the Georgian Soviet Republic in 1931. (In a similar fit of socialist fraternal generosity, Nikita Khrushchev transferred the Crimea – Russian territory since the 18th century – to the Ukraine in 1956.)

In any case, French and German securocrats dug in their heels, and even Bush-friendly political leaders like Nicolas Sarkozy and Angela Merkel decided that planting NATO’s flag on the crest of the Caucasian mountains and the banks of the Dneper River was an expansion too far – at least for the moment.

Same Verse, Third Refrain

Once again, the US enlargement lobby sprang into action. In February of last year, with the newly born Democratic Congress still waiving its little arms and spitting up mucus, Dick Lugar (the ranking Republican on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee) and Joe Biden (the committee’s nominally Democratic chairman) introduced the "NATO Freedom Consolidation Act". Like its predecessors, the bill authorized the President to immediately begin treating the Ukraine and Georgia as full-fledged NATO allies in all but name – with weapons sales, military advisors, etc. Senate cosponsors included Chris Dodd of Connecticut, Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, Gordon Smith of Oregon, and, naturally, John McCain (R-POW).

Also like its predecessors, the bill was whisked through both houses of Congress with about as much deliberation as a resolution praising the Future Farmers of Benton County for their fine showing at the Iowa State Fair – with no hearings, no debate, no roll call votes. President Bush signed it into law on April 9, 2007. The White House put out an official statement marking the occasion. It was one sentence long.

And so, with an absolute minimum of democratic process, the United States of America committed its full prestige and power (if not, just yet, a legally binding guarantee) to the defense of the two former Soviet republics, even though the Russians have repeatedly stated that they regard NATO membership by either country as a direct threat to their own vital security interests. As others have already noted, this is as if China had unilaterally announced a military alliance with Mexico and Cuba. Actually it’s worse: Imagine the US reaction if China announced a military alliance with Mexico, after which the president of Mexico started dropping public hints about taking New Mexico back – by whatever means necessary. (And if that comparison seems unnecessarily paranoid, consider the history of Russia in the 20th century. Even paranoids have real enemies.)

A careful search of Nexus and Google reveals that the number of stories appearing in the pages of major US newspapers and magazines, or on the wires of major American news services, taking note of this fateful decision, equals exactly one: a brief item out of UPI’s Moscow bureau, warning of the Russian reaction. The Georgian and Ukranian press, on the other hand, gave the new law saturation coverage – encouraged by their respective governments, both of which issued official statements describing their future NATO admissions as, in effect, done deals.

The Russians also reacted. Just a few days after the NATO Freedom Consolidation Act was introduced in the Senate, President Putin gave a speech in Munich that was widely reported as his harshest attack to date on America for its allegedly aggressive and hegemonic designs. The New York Times and US government officials (which is a somewhat redundant expression) both professed shock over Putin’s language – without once mentioning the congressional provocation that triggered it.

But there was just one problem: NATO admission for the Ukraine and Georgia was most emphatically not a done deal. Despite all the pressure from the Cheney Administration (which, we now know, was being played hard by pro-Georgian lobbyists, including John McCain’s current campaign manager) the French and Germans stuck to their position in the run up to last April’s NATO summit in Bucharest.

This led to another flurry of activity by the congressional expansion lobby. In January of this year, another resolution was introduced, again demanding that NATO open its doors to the Ukraine and Georgia. This time the list of cosponsors included Biden, McCain and Joe Lieberman – as well as both Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. It was passed by unanimous consent. And when the NATO summit nonetheless elected to pass on the Ukrainian and Georgian applications (promising, vaguely, to revisit the issue at a later date) the Demopublicans quickly came back with yet another resolution blasting the Russians for a long list of alleged violations of Georgian sovereignty and praising the NATO summit for "stat[ing] that the Republic of Georgia will become a member of NATO" – when, in fact, the summit had made no such promise. Up is down. Black is white.

[Kati]

US trainers say Georgian troops weren't ready
yahoonews.com

By MATTI FRIEDMAN, Associated Press Writer Matti Friedman, Associated Press Writer Mon Aug 18, 3:28 pm ET
TBILISI, Georgia – U.S. military trainers — the only American boots on the ground — say the Georgian soldiers they knew who were sent to battle the Russians had fighting spirit but were not ready for war.

The Georgians were "beginning to walk, but by no means were they running," said Army Capt. Jeff Barta, who helped train a Georgian brigade for peacekeeping service in Iraq. "If that was a U.S. brigade it would not have gone into combat."

Now on standby at the Sheraton Hotel, unarmed and in civilian clothes, six of the American trainers offered a glimpse at the 5-year-old U.S. mission and at the performance of the outnumbered and outgunned Georgian military in its defeat by Russia.

The Americans arrived for work Aug. 7 to unexpectedly find training was over for the unit they had been assigned to for three weeks, the 4th Brigade: The Georgian soldiers were sitting on their rucksacks and singing folk songs as an Orthodox priest walked among them chanting and waving incense.

Then buses and trucks took the troops off toward Georgia's breakaway region of South Ossetia, where there had been sporadic clashes and shelling during the previous week. That night the Georgian army began an offensive trying to retake the Russian-supported region, and by the following morning hundreds of Russian tanks were rolling across the border.

"From what I've heard, a lot of the 4th Brigade was hit pretty hard," said Rachel Dejong, 24, a Navy medic from Richmond, Ind.

The Georgian company commander who was training alongside Barta was killed.

"Some of the soldiers seemed really grateful for the things we taught them," said Barta, a 31-year-old from Columbus, Ohio, but he acknowledged it was not nearly enough.

Trainers start with the basics of infantry warfare — shooting, taking cover, advancing — then on to squad and platoon maneuvers, Barta said.

The Georgians do not lack "warrior spirit," he said, but added that they weren't ready for combat.

They inherited bad habits from the Red Army, whose soldiers wouldn't move without a direct order from a superior, and need to be taught to think on their own, Barta said. To make things more difficult, many soldiers "come from the hills of Georgia, and some of them sign for their paycheck with an X," he said.

The Georgian army has five regular infantry brigades, each with some 2,000 troops. Only one of them — the 1st, which was rushed home from Iraq by U.S. planes after fighting broke out — has been trained to a NATO level.

There are also units of poorly trained reservists, Georgian men who do 18 days of one-time military training and then eight days a year into their 40s. Officially, the government says it has 37,000 regular soldiers and 100,000 reservists.

Speaking on condition of anonymity, some of the American trainers spoke bluntly about problems with the Georgian troops, who one veteran sergeant said "got torn up real bad."

The Americans were training them to use the U.S. military's M-4 rifles, he said. But when fighting broke out, the Georgians went back to the Soviet AK-47, the only weapon they trusted. They appeared incapable of firing single shots, instead letting off bursts of automatic fire, which is wildly inaccurate and wastes ammunition, he said.

Another problem was communications: As soon as combat began, the army's communications network largely collapsed, he said, so troops conducted operations using regular cell phones. That left their communications easily accessible to Russian intelligence.

"Were they ready to go? The answer is no," the sergeant said.

The U.S. trainers come from different branches of the military: Marines, Army, Navy and special forces. Most have combat experience in Iraq or Afghanistan. At the moment, according to the trainers, there are fewer than 100 of them in the country.

Officially their job is to get the Georgians ready to serve in Iraq, where the country has maintained a 2,000-man contingent.

Unofficially, some of the trainers acknowledge, the program hopes to give the U.S. a more robust ally on Russia's border in a country that houses a vital oil pipeline.

The Americans aren't the only ones here. Georgian corporals and sergeants train with Germans, alpine units and the navy work with French instructors, and special operations and urban warfare troops are taught by Israelis, said Georgia's deputy defense minister, Batu Kutelia.

While the U.S. mission is specifically aimed at getting troops ready for Iraq, the "overall goal is to bring Georgia up to NATO standards," Kutelia said in an interview at the Defense Ministry on Sunday.

This former Soviet republic has allied itself with the West and has hopes of joining NATO, ambitions that Russia has seen as a challenge to its influence and security.

Kutelia said Georgian troops who had trained with the Americans and other foreign forces — about half of the military — performed better in the war than those who didn't.

It isn't clear how many Georgian units actually had a chance to put what they learned into practice.

One Georgian officer who returned from the front said the army succumbed not to one-on-one combat but to overwhelming Russian air power. The officer, who appeared shaken by what he saw, showed photographs of Georgian military jeeps destroyed from the air, the bodies of their occupants lying bloated on the road.

He would not give his name because he was not authorized to speak to journalists.

Barta, the Army captain, said of the company he was training: "I know specifically that Bravo Company, I'm sure, and I hope from what I did for them, that they're better off than they would have been if this happened four weeks ago."

An independent Georgian military expert, Koba Liklikadze, said the U.S. training was not a deciding factor, attributing the army's loss to bad decisions by the government. Georgia declared a cease-fire too soon, he said, which demoralized the troops before most of them had a chance to fight.

"It was not an absolutely decisive factor whether Georgians were trained by Americans or not," he said. "What happened was due to the political decision of Georgian authorities, and not the performance on the ground."

The U.S. program has been interrupted, and critically damaged, by the war. The Georgian army has been dealt a harsh blow: While official statistics claim 180 fatalities, soldiers and civilians, Liklikadze estimated the number of dead or missing soldiers at 400.

Many Georgian military bases, including the main U.S. training facility at Vasiani, were damaged or destroyed.

The U.S. trainers now lounging at the Tbilisi Sheraton have been relegated to following the situation from the hotel's carpeted halls and glass elevators. They seem eager to either get back to work or leave.

With the future of their mission uncertain, the trainers have been drafted to help the U.S. aid operation that began last week. But it is hard to avoid the impression they would rather be elsewhere.

"I'm not saying that we're suffering here with the one million-thread-count sheets or checking out the local females at the pool, " said Capt. Pongpat Piluek, a veteran of the Afghanistan war. "But if our job now is to sit here and put down roots in the couch, I'd rather do it at home."