IAF at Red Flag / Nellis AFB 2008

[kedar.karmarkar]

kedar, I hope you will cover all IAF exercises in the future !
may be IAF will even sponsor you if you forward a link of your site to them !
btw, do you have any idea of the type of ops the su's took part in ??
details have been woefully sketchy to satisfy a jingo !

Thanks, Rahul.
The IAF flew air2air and air2ground sorties, but primarily air2ground. There were air2air sorties in Boise with the 18th AGRS as well as air2ground. One of my friend had gone to the Nellis ranges, and got buzzed by a couple of our Su-s and he also heard over the radio some "MiG" kills by our folks.

So we did get prepared for the RF-N in a nice way, since preparing with another AGRS unit before the final Flag is an additional bonus.

Apart from that I too dont hv much additional info

[Rahul M]

thanks a lot kedar, these nuggets are valued in gold ! also, the raptor pics you took (again, those are superb pics ! this is getting repetitive or what !) when did they fly ? were they flying from anywhere near the red flag birds areas ? did you guys get advance notification or did you get lucky ?
it would be interesting to know how much secrecy USAF maintained with the raptors.
TIA.

[karan_mc]

kedar i checked your kit in Bangalore recently ,cost a bomb in India 85k ,even checked Sony a200w which is coming with 2 lens kit 18 to 70 mm and 75 mm to 300mm and just under 35k ,i tried it for some half an hour was quite impressed with it,do you advise this camera for a ameature like me ?

[shiv]

Kedar, I dont need to add any more well deserved praise than whats already here!

Going on at this for days on end requires some super human interest and effort. Three days at Aero India is enough for me to get fed up, yet you are going on here for days over weeks.

I am curious, how many shots do you take in a typical day at RF-N? How many thousands have you taken by now?



Shots like these are rare in India - I have mostly seen them come straight in and land.

Jagan - as you know we "technically" have access to such views even at Aero India - but my cameras have never had the capability to get that close.

Kedar - was there a slightly elevated area from which you could take pics? That F-15 with after burner looks like there was a degree of elevation (maybe a mound or low hill) for the photographer's perspective.

[MukulMohanty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCla0sV5M2Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a0rtjQq ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9S-BvFx ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcbTqRKi ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4mTrLhf ... re=related


Its an excellent introduction to Red Flag for all of us to see. Its 5 parts and is not at all biased representation of what happens at the Red Flag.

Regards,


Mukul

[disha]

For camera comparisons - you can use the following site - www.dpreview.com. I found it excellent with hands on shots and comparisons.

[SaiK]

^^apparently the youtube videos is not related to exercise with IAF & french airforce.

[kedar.karmarkar]

thanks a lot kedar, these nuggets are valued in gold ! also, the raptor pics you took (again, those are superb pics ! this is getting repetitive or what !) when did they fly ? were they flying from anywhere near the red flag birds areas ? did you guys get advance notification or did you get lucky ?
it would be interesting to know how much secrecy USAF maintained with the raptors.
TIA.

the USAF "seemed" too keen to recover the Raptors when any of the foreign air forces were present. I was there for around 4 days, and mostly the Raptors used to go off early, and come back before the RF-N launches took place. For the Raptor shots, I got, we were just lucky to be there when these guys recovered.
The Raptor was not part of RF-N, and our guys never flew alongside it.

[kedar.karmarkar]

kedar i checked your kit in Bangalore recently ,cost a bomb in India 85k ,even checked Sony a200w which is coming with 2 lens kit 18 to 70 mm and 75 mm to 300mm and just under 35k ,i tried it for some half an hour was quite impressed with it,do you advise this camera for a ameature like me ?

Hey Karan - the kit does count towards getting sharper shots, but most important is the "human element" behind it. I started off with some low end stuff, and have gradually worked my way towards this gear. I would suggest, get anything you can afford, start clicking and trying out different things, and then you can "use" and "appreciate" the advanced features of costlier gear.

All the best

B/R
Kedar

[kedar.karmarkar]

Kedar, I dont need to add any more well deserved praise than whats already here!

Going on at this for days on end requires some super human interest and effort. Three days at Aero India is enough for me to get fed up, yet you are going on here for days over weeks.

I am curious, how many shots do you take in a typical day at RF-N? How many thousands have you taken by now?



Shots like these are rare in India - I have mostly seen them come straight in and land.

Jagan - as you know we "technically" have access to such views even at Aero India - but my cameras have never had the capability to get that close.

Kedar - was there a slightly elevated area from which you could take pics? That F-15 with after burner looks like there was a degree of elevation (maybe a mound or low hill) for the photographer's perspective.

Ok, now if I remember, there was a small tower in betn the runways - that may have provided the elevation in that shot

[MukulMohanty]

^^apparently the youtube videos is not related to exercise with IAF & french airforce.

Nope it isn't but its meant to be an introduction of what the exercises are, what they relate to, what are the role of the aggressors, what is the role of the blue, white and red forces. What are the pods on the MKI's we see? Those pods are provided by the USAF that monitor every movement of the MKI so that later we can do a complete analysis of the fighters response in face of the adversery. It mimicks the aircraft in entirety.

Now with these pods are actually installed on the aircraft by the USAF... So much for an ELINT issue...

[soutikghosh]

More foreign cooperation at RED FLAG(IAF & ROKAF)

http://bemil.chosun.com/brd/files/BEMIL ... SU30_1.jpg

http://bemil.chosun.com/brd/files/BEMIL ... SU30_2.jpg

[neerajb]

^^apparently the youtube videos is not related to exercise with IAF & french airforce.

What's wrong with that. Apparently I found out that 45 minute documentary to be very informative about Red flag and it's a good thing to begin with. You get to know what role Sukhois are going to paly and that too visually.

Cheers....

[sum]

In the first pic, what gizmo is the ROKAF airman working with?

[Singha]

looks like a device to check something in the engine since they are sitting on it.
must be some standard interface or a temp probe type thing else their eqpt
would not fit on the AL31.

I have seen a device like that used to remote measure the temperature
in electronic hw lab setup. you can shine a red dot on a CPU and instantly
get its temp.

but this puppy is around 20 times bigger and comes in a suitcase. must
be ati adhunik videshi kit.

see:
fluke thermal imager
http://us.fluke.com/usen/products/Fluke+TiR.htm

Thermography, or thermal imaging, detects heat patterns or temperature changes in objects. These changes allow the user to discover problems prior to costly downtime, or monitor developing problems so maintenance can be scheduled during a planned downtime or when budget is available.

non-contact IR thermometers
http://us.fluke.com/usen/products/CategoryTemp.htm

my best guess would be a high end thermal imager to check all the visible parts of
the engine after a mission for temp differentials to detect cracks and leaks quite
quickly...much more sensitive than visual inspection. and that suitcase probably
houses a rugged PC that captures all data and may have special sw from the
OEM to create reports and further analysis.

[Raja Bose]

I was just watching the Red Flag videos on Youtube where they talk about the mechanisms of the entire exercise. Based on what I saw, it seems the Aggressor sqdn. only flies with Russian tactics (ground based controllers calling every move). I wonder if anybody knows if they simulate other nations' tactics, say China, Pakiland, NoKo etc. or do these nations typically copy either american (in case of pakis) or russian (in case of China, NoKo) tactics?

Red Flag is great for IAF getting experience in mass scale network centric warfare and flying against russkie type aggressors but I hope they keep aggressively exercising every year against other airforces with different training doctrines and tactics. Let not any penny pinching babu complain about the cost of these exercises coz that might just result in a JDAM up that babu's a$$. Wonder if red force is allowed to have allied (non-USAF) aircraft in its team to act as aggressors....I think the IAF can show them a thing or two there.

[sunilUpa]

but this puppy is around 20 times bigger and comes in a suitcase. must
be ati adhunik videshi kit.


Thermography, or thermal imaging, detects heat patterns or temperature changes in objects. These changes allow the user to discover problems prior to costly downtime, or monitor developing problems so maintenance can be scheduled during a planned downtime or when budget is available.



my best guess would be a high end thermal imager to check all the visible parts of
the engine after a mission for temp differentials to detect cracks and leaks quite
quickly...much more sensitive than visual inspection. and that suitcase probably
houses a rugged PC that captures all data and may have special sw from the
OEM to create reports and further analysis.

That's a "flexible video borescope".

[Singha]

so its essentially a video camera at the end of a wire to look into all the cracks
and crevices of the engine bay?
could save time I imagine if used properly.

[shiv]

so its essentially a video camera at the end of a wire to look into all the cracks
and crevices of the engine bay?
could save time I imagine if used properly.

More like a medical endoscope. I was surprised to find the dealers who serviced my own medical endoscope (Olympus) sitting in a stall at Aero India some years ago. They told me that they supplied flexible fiber optic endoscopes to ISRO and for other aerospace applications. Most 'scopes have a video camera at the end of a wire as yo say, but also have a fiber bundle for light transmission into dark areas.

[Singha]

looks like the IAF does not use it, because the Soko crew were demoing it to us.

[neerajb]

looks like the IAF does not use it, because the Soko crew were demoing it to us.

It is quite possible that the suitcase and the flexible video borescope both belongs to the India ground crew and the korean crew was just having a look at that on top of Indian MKI.

Cheers...

[Nitesh]

This is interesting, so yanks like this also:

http://www.idrw.org/2008/08/31/rajmacha ... force.html
BY : IANS

Besides getting intrigued by the skills and prowess of Indian Air Force’s (IAF’s) fighter jets, the US Air Force warriors got hooked on Indian rajma-chawal (kidney beans and rice) during the latest multinational war games held in the US.The US Air Force personnel got a taste of Indian cuisine during the multinational exercise the Red Flag-08 at US air force base Nellis, in which the IAF participated for the first time.

“The IAF hosted a small lunch for the US Air Force and South Korean Air Force personnel on Aug 15 with Indian food, like Hyderabadi biryani, rajma chawal and shahi paneer on the menu,” a senior IAF official in the contingent participating in the exercise told IANS.

“Finding a taste for the Indian delicacy, the air warriors also tried to emulate the Indian way of eating rajma chawal, that is by hand. In fact they were licking their fingers at the end of the lunch,” the official added.

The commander of the Pacific Command Lt. Gen. Lyod Utterback also attended the party and savoured the Indian food.

“The IAF contingent which has gone to the US for participating in the month long military exercises has taken along with it packed food to avoid eating junk food there,” the official added.

In fact, the IAF carried 2.5 tonnes of packed food packets of rajma chawal, Hyderabadi biryani, shahi paneer, palak paneer and other Indian dishes with them.

“Nearly one quarter of the IL-76 of transport aircraft was stored with the packed Indian food. On Independence Day we just thought of throwing a party,” the official added.

After relishing the food the US Air Force and South Korean troops only said one thing -”Indian food is good, but red hot!”

The Red Flag-08, considered one of the toughest military exercises, was held at the Air Force base Nellis in Nevada, US.

Though India has participated in many US-led war games, this is the first time it is taking part in the Red Flag. India has spent around Rs.1 billion ($25 million) for the exercise. IAF participation in the exercise began Aug 10 till Aug 24.

This year the Red Flag features air force contingents from France, South Korea, India and the US.

[Raja Bose]

The IAF contingent definitely ate well!...but why the packed food....dont they take cooks/support staff along on these long exercises?! Indians are also getting snooty with their Bisleri and 'non-junk' biryani.....and avoiding 'junk food' overseas

This is interesting, so yanks like this also:

http://www.idrw.org/2008/08/31/rajmacha ... force.html
BY : IANS

“The IAF contingent which has gone to the US for participating in the month long military exercises has taken along with it packed food to avoid eating junk food there ” the official added.

After relishing the food the US Air Force and South Korean troops only said one thing -”Indian food is good, but red hot!”

I thought SoKos love hot food....some of their stuff is pretty darn hot!

[Dileep]

An online xlator gave the following result on the text accompanying the Korean Photo

Red [phul] the South Korean air force maintenance company field which participated to lag training in request of the humane air force maintenance company field

It is a photograph which executes 100 hour cyclic prosecuting attorney of Su-30 fighters to use video [su] nose [phu]

It is a photograph which it provides from the Air Force Headquarters

From what I could gather from the postors, the endoscope is ours.

[Lalmohan]

airlines use these endoscopes routinely

[Singha]

gratifying

[sohamn]

Hi guys,

Does any one know what kind of ATG missions were flown? Did it include Anti Radar, dumb bombing, LGB, live rounds etc etc. Did some planes have electronic warfare pods installed??

[Surya]

lol - rubbish - Soko guys have chilli in most of their food - they will not find it hot.


Will be heading out to the local Korean food mall - yumm

[sum]

From what I could gather from the postors, the endoscope is ours

The SDREs showing off their gizmos to the superpower of making such electronic gizmos, ROK(after Japan,of course).....Nice.

[Avarachan]

I've seen a lot of posts here about the possibility of electronic snooping on the IAF at joint exercises, but there's something else to be mindful of, as well.

Dick Marcinko (the founder of the U.S. Navy's SEAL Team Six) mentions in one of his books that the real point of the joint exercises the U.S. conducted with foreign special forces was to create psychological profiles on those foreign military personnel. As you can imagine, those profiles were useful for a variety of reasons.

It's also worth noting that one reason for the lopsided wartime victories of the Israeli Air Force was that they knew the personnel of their enemies' forces. For instance, the Israelis would carefully monitor the communications of the Syrian Air Force, and when a Syrian ace took to the skies, the Israelis would triple and quadruple-team him so he didn't have a chance. In this way, the Israelis quickly eliminated Syria's most experienced pilots.

I still support the IAF participating in Red Flag. India faces massive threats, and the experience the IAF gains through these exercises is useful. It is also highly unlikely that the U.S. and India will engage in direct military conflict in the future. However, there is a fair chance that the data I bet the U.S. is collecting could fall into the wrong hands. For instance, I imagine that China would be very interested in such information.

[svinayak]

I've seen a lot of posts here about the possibility of electronic snooping on the IAF at joint exercises, but there's something else to be mindful of, as well.

Dick Marcinko (the founder of the U.S. Navy's SEAL Team Six) mentions in one of his books that the real point of the joint exercises the U.S. conducted with foreign special forces was to create psychological profiles on those foreign military personnel. As you can imagine, those profiles were useful for a variety of reasons.

It's also worth noting that one reason for the lopsided wartime victories of the Israeli Air Force was that they knew the personnel of their enemies' forces. For instance, the Israelis would carefully monitor the communications of the Syrian Air Force, and when a Syrian ace took to the skies, the Israelis would triple and quadruple-team him so he didn't have a chance. In this way, the Israelis quickly eliminated Syria's most experienced pilots.

I still support the IAF participating in Red Flag. India faces massive threats, and the experience the IAF gains through these exercises is useful. It is also highly unlikely that the U.S. and India will engage in direct military conflict in the future. However, there is a fair chance that the data I bet the U.S. is collecting could fall into the wrong hands. For instance, I imagine that China would be very interested in such information.

This is true. The profile is done very good on the people they want to study.
Indian military profile is being studied recently but they have been doing study on the society for a long time with sociology studies.

[sum]

Dick Marcinko (the founder of the U.S. Navy's SEAL Team Six) mentions in one of his books that the real point of the joint exercises the U.S. conducted with foreign special forces was to create psychological profiles on those foreign military personnel. As you can imagine, those profiles were useful for a variety of reasons.

If its true, what better chance than when we are sending our best pilots of the best squadron(s) of the IAF with the best of groundcrew thrown in.....
A golden opportunity for the Amrikis then...

[parshuram]

Kedar

Pardon me are you saying the pilots made an error here Iif yes this is surprising MKI is state of art Pilot need to explain

Nope - our guys were perfect. I am saying they landed on runway assigned by ATC - but it was the "wrong" runway from photography perspective - we would be shooting into the sun, when there was another runway out there which was perfectly lit up by the setting sun, and would have been more apt.

O I am sorry ..... Thanks for clearing the doubts .. Nice pix indeed

[nred]

More foreign cooperation at RED FLAG(IAF & ROKAF)

http://bemil.chosun.com/brd/files/BEMIL ... SU30_1.jpg

http://bemil.chosun.com/brd/files/BEMIL ... SU30_2.jpg

Are Ray Ban Aviators standard issue?

[Rich]

Snooping suspiscions aside, if I were the IAF, I would be more concerned about the MKI's perceived vulnerability to SAM's albeit in the case of RF, they were not permitted to use active countermeasures. That being said, I am not sure how effective chaff and flares would have been against multiple SAM sites engaging a formation of MKI's on an A2G mission. Deep down inside, I truly hope the IAF has very capable ECM and electronic warfare systems that they are able to employ but chose not to due to security reasons at Nellis last month. But if they are truly vulnerable to ground based defenses, then it is a big hole that they must fix as soon as possible because Paki ground based defences are probably the most formidable kind in their inventory.

[ranganathan]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Paki defences and formidable ???

[Surya]

Rich is right

The pakis do have a pretty decent air defence and they have the advantage of being smaller and being more focussed.

[ranganathan]

Paki air defences are rudimentary and not a big threat. The chinese defences are more formidable thanks to S-300 etc.

[Rich]

ranganathan - I'm sure you can post a reply with a tad more civility.
when I stated:

Paki ground based defences are probably the most formidable kind in their inventory

I meant that their ground based air defenses are the most formidable in their inventory, i.e. a greater threat than their F-16's, Mirages and F-7's. And if you think their Crotales, and Chinese supplied SA-2 and SA-6 clones are threats to be laughed at then it is pretty clear who it is that hasn't a clue what he is talking about.

[ranganathan]

IAF knows the missiles you mentioned thoroughly. I would be more worried about any new SAM like FT-2000 etc that they may acquire. Currently they don't have any in the pipeline. The IAF has been practicing with Kh-31A and other ARM for a while. Secondly in RF IAF obviously did not show their cards hence I wouldn't worry too much about SAM shot downs.