Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 26 Aug 2008 16:51

I think we need to post all miscellaneous questions here.

Even though I have been lurking on BR for the last 6 years, I am still very wet behind the ears when it comes to military matters.

There are many diggajs here who can share their knowledge with us noobs.

With a Hail to Hanumanjee (and a tribute to PeeArrEff adminullahs) I am starting this thread.

Please do not derail other threads and consolidate your questions here.

Thanks.

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I have changed the title to "Military Miscellaneous Posts and Discussions Thread" from the 'Military Nukkad Thread' to preclude the idea of a free for all anything goes based on the word Nukkad in the title. Thanks, ramana

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Modified title given by ramana ji to clear any doubts.
Newbies and Oldies,
post here on any topic that you are unsure of about the thread it belongs to.
and ask those burning questions !

Rahul.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 26 Aug 2008 16:54

My question. In case the pilot of Mki gets incapacitated can the WSO guide the plane back to base safely ?

Do all the two seaters in IAF inventory allow the WSO to take over the pilot's functions ?

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 26 Aug 2008 17:02

Nayak

Yes - it is fully functional.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 26 Aug 2008 17:05

Thank you sir.

What about the ejection sequence ? Say in a scenario where the a/c has to be ditched, who ejects first ?

Seeing the canopy shape of Mki I would assume the WSO gets to have the first go.

Also can the pilot eject the WSO and vice versa ?

Remember the scene from "broken arrow" ?

Aditya_M · Post by **Aditya_M** » 26 Aug 2008 21:59

If I'm not mistaken, both have the capability of ejecting each other, with a lever deciding whose command is "obeyed".

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Aug 2008 12:38

A wonderful piece on Hitler's megalaomaniac "Germanic" architctural dreams.These bunkers are a revealation to military planners even today and certainly worth a visit.I've seen the Cabinet War rooms in Whitehall that Churchill used in WW2 when they were first opened about 20 years ago.These Berlin bunkers are a must visit for BRites.

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/ ... dChannel=0

Tunnels show Hitler's megalomaniac vision
BERLIN (Reuters) - Three vast tunnels were opened under central Berlin this month, giving a glimpse of Adolf Hitler's megalomaniac vision of a new architectural centre for the capital of Nazi Germany.

The 16-metre (50-foot) deep tunnels were constructed in 1938 as part of an underground transport network beneath a series of bombastic buildings designed by Nazi architect Albert Speer, including the biggest domed hall the world had ever seen.....

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 29 Aug 2008 17:25

How reliable is this site, data from the site says Yindia has more aircrafts than chinkis..

http://www.globalfirepower.com/countrie ... detail.asp

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 30 Aug 2008 00:40

Can someone enlighten me what is that pipe that is sticking out of the tail cone of the Jaguar in this pic. Is it APU exhaust or some sort of counter measure despenser? Thanks in advance.

Cheers.....

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Aug 2008 09:54

neerajbhandari wrote:Can someone enlighten me what is that pipe that is sticking out of the tail cone of the Jaguar in this pic. Is it APU exhaust or some sort of counter measure despenser? Thanks in advance.

Cheers.....

Looks like a nozzle to dump fuel when fuel need to be dumped.

Mandeep · Post by **Mandeep** » 04 Sep 2008 00:02

Definitely 72s. No 55s were ever stationed in Ladakh. OTOH 2 x squadrons of 72s were located in the region from 1988 to 1991. Besides a battalion of BMP-2s.

srai · Post by **srai** » 04 Sep 2008 00:22

Luxtor wrote:
soutikghosh wrote:BMP-2s In LADAKH

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2037/223 ... d243_o.jpg

T-55 flanked by BMP-2

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2309/217 ... c5fd_o.jpg

ranganathan wrote:I thought T-55's were retired in 2007?? How old are these photos?
Those tanks are T-72's I believe, not T-55's

No those are T-55s with what looks like Kanchan armor add ons. Check out this frontal view of the T-55s.

On retirement of T-55s, I believe there are still around 500 of them still left in the IA. They will probably be phased out as the new batches of T-90S come online. BTW, there are also 500+ Vijayanta MBTs still in service as well. So it's going to take some time for these to be completed retired.

srai · Post by **srai** » 04 Sep 2008 00:23

Mandeep wrote:Definitely 72s. No 55s were ever stationed in Ladakh. OTOH 2 x squadrons of 72s were located in the region from 1988 to 1991. Besides a battalion of BMP-2s.

I don't think the second picture is taken at Ladakh.

ranganathan · Post by **ranganathan** » 04 Sep 2008 00:29

I hope IA transfers the T-55's to myammar or afghan army. The porkis will be puking bile all over the net after that.

malushahi · Post by **malushahi** » 04 Sep 2008 07:41

Mandeep wrote:Definitely 72s. No 55s were ever stationed in Ladakh. OTOH 2 x squadrons of 72s were located in the region from 1988 to 1991. Besides a battalion of BMP-2s.

There was at least one T55 "somewhere in the Himalayas" at least till about 20 months ago. I can think of only two road-linked theaters that offer altitudes of 17,000+ feet in the Himalayas. A silent build-up will save many a rushed heli-drops.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2007/20070106/main9.htm

Army feat: Tank driven to 17,000 feet

Chandigarh, January 5
Somewhere in the snow-covered Himalayas during the bleak winters last year, the Army drove a T-55 tank up to the dizzying height of over 17,000 feet, setting a record of sorts. Never in the history of armoured warfare has a tank been taken up to this altitude before.

The operation was undertaken to evaluate the operational and logistical feasibility to transport and operate tanks at altitudes and to areas which have so far remained unexposed to armoured operations, should such a need arise. The task was carried out by 63 Cavalry Regiment.

“This is a stellar example of the grit and determination of the troops and their ability to move men and equipment against all odds and reach where required,” Lt Gen S.S. Mehta (retd) a former Colonel of 63 Cavalry Regiment, said. “Nowhere in the world has a tank been taken up to this altitude before,” he added.

Designed and developed for combat in plains and deserts, tanks have not been used for operations in mountains barring a few examples. The Indian Army Corps had redefined the parameters for armoured operations in the 1947-48 war, when Col (later Lt Gen) Rajinder Singh Sparrow of 7 Light Cavalry took tanks through the 12,000-foot-high Zoji La pass in Kashmir and threw back Pakistani forces. It was through this action that Dras was recaptured in 1947.

The 63 Cavalry had detailed a lieutenant colonel to head the operations. The entire exercise was an extremely complex task involving detailed planning and constant review of minor details. A lot of time was spent in selecting the route.

“The operation involved a lot of innovations and spur of the moment decisions, most of which were actually contrary to established technical norms,” an officer revealed. “At places there was three feet of snow and the temperatures were as low as minis 13 degree Celsius,” he added.

At that altitude, the oxygen content is just 4 per cent as compared to 17 per cent at lower altitudes, which greatly affects engine combustion,” the officer said. “We had to work out the fuel consumption and other technical aspects accordingly,” he added.

During the drive which took several days, special efforts were required to ensure that the batteries did not go dead because of the extreme cold. Precautions were also taken against the fuel and lubricants freezing at night. There were also instances where it was learnt that a task which required special tools could be accomplished by normal tools with a bit of imagination and expertise.

The tank started up from an altitude of about 14,000 feet and reached up to 17,000 through a narrow snow covered track, which at places was just enough to accommodate the tank’s width. The driver was later awarded Chief of the Army Staff’s Commendation.

soutikghosh · Post by **soutikghosh** » 04 Sep 2008 19:40

IA's Punjab regiment

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1008/127 ... 3697_b.jpg

ALH DHRUV in Army camo

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3018/270 ... 5eee_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3247/270 ... 6c7f_b.jpg

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 04 Sep 2008 21:26

Cross posting from : Indian Missile Technology Discussion

ramdas wrote:As far as I can understand, except NPAs everbody incl PKI et. al say

S-1 40-45kt
S-2 12 kt

Other than NPA's everybody accepted the DAE figure for the yield of these devices. So where did 28kt come from ?

But Shakti I seems limited to about 31 kt, plus some margin of uncertainty that may bound it in the mid-30s. The various other data marshaled by BARC do not prove a yield larger than 29 kt, which closely matches the seismic upper limit of circa 35 kt as perhaps the most plausible yield for Shakti I. This would be consistent with a partially successful thermonuclear test with a roughly 15 kt primary stage and a 15 kt secondary yield.

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/India/I ... ields.html

So indeed the thermonuclear device had partial failure of secondary.

neerajbhandari wrote:BRM and wikepedia both mentions the yields of S1 as:

1) Primary - 15 KT.
2) Secondary - 30 KT.

So Indian thermonuclear weapon produced 45 KT. First and last OT post from side.

Cheers...

Sorry for the goof up.

Arun_S wrote:A large yield nuclear weapon has not been demonstrated by India. For the Indian deterrent capability to be convincing in perpetuity this needs to be done. For that further tests are needed.

I just came to know that in a thermonuclear bomb the main energy comes from fission

. I guess that's why BARC and AEC didn't test the device at it's full yield of 200KT when you have a village at 5 km distance and pak border at 100 Kms. I do think that India needs to do more test but for improving their secondary designs to achieve higher effeciencies as they achieved 50% of their already discounted target yield.

Cheers...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Sep 2008 22:01

Their HR concerns not withstanding, look into what was the shaft capapbility in which the S1 was tested.

srai · Post by **srai** » 05 Sep 2008 02:37

soutikghosh wrote:One more pic of BMP-2 in LADAKH

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1369/757 ... 99fa_b.jpg

One thing would'nt Wheeled APC be more effective than BMP-2s in this region

For whatever reason, IA has been slow to the wheeled APC concept. There doesn't really seem to be any in the pipeline as well.

MukulMohanty · Post by **MukulMohanty** » 05 Sep 2008 03:23

Nope, it's a common misconception that wheeled APC is better than those with Tracks. Tracks are easier to fix on the field. They are more flexible over terrain. Plus, no one can blow your tyres out.

maz · Post by **maz** » 05 Sep 2008 03:45

The IA uses the Czech-Polish OT-64 SKOT 8X8 APC. See more at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OT-64_SKOT

ssmitra · Post by **ssmitra** » 05 Sep 2008 06:16

soutikghosh wrote:IA's Punjab regiment

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1008/127 ... 3697_b.jpg

not punjab but sikh regt

ssmitra · Post by **ssmitra** » 05 Sep 2008 06:28

MukulMohanty wrote:Nope, it's a common misconception that wheeled APC is better than those with Tracks. Tracks are easier to fix on the field. They are more flexible over terrain. Plus, no one can blow your tyres out.

I don't think better but supposed to be more complementary for mech infantry units. wheeled APC provide faster recce and scout units.

Blowing out tyres with rifle bullets have become redundant in modern APC's with the use of run flat capability and I think in some (I am not sure which one, saw it on military channel, may be the Pandur II) almost half of the volume of the tyre is made up of "rubber" (or whatever reinforce material they use) and only half is actually meant to be filled with air.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 05 Sep 2008 07:40

I couldn't understand what you meant by shaft capability. Can you elaborate?

Cheers....

ticky · Post by **ticky** » 05 Sep 2008 13:44

I got a question for the Gurus here.

What is the current capability of the armed forces in carrying out heliborne assault operations with respect to size and scale of operation.
what kind of equipment capacity is required to do a brigade level assault.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 06 Sep 2008 12:15

http://englishrussia.com/?p=533

I don't think this link has been posted here yet. Many pictures of abandoned Russian planes. They don't even salvage the parts for recycling it seems. A few T 22s (?) lying around too.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 06 Sep 2008 12:45

neerajbhandari wrote:I couldn't understand what you meant by shaft capability. Can you elaborate?

Cheers....

the shafts in which the devices were placed.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 06 Sep 2008 13:29

Rahul M wrote:
neerajbhandari wrote:I couldn't understand what you meant by shaft capability. Can you elaborate?

Cheers....
the shafts in which the devices were placed.

A simple english version (not a cryptic one) is solicited for understanding

. What does shallow or deep shaft has to do with the low yield? If the shaft was too shallow to contain a 45KT (by design) thermonuclear, then the BARC people must be knowing that beforehand. Then why to declare 45KT in the first place.

Cheers....

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 08 Sep 2008 15:02

neerajbhandari wrote:
Rahul M wrote: the shafts in which the devices were placed.
A simple english version (not a cryptic one) is solicited for understanding . What does shallow or deep shaft has to do with the low yield? If the shaft was too shallow to contain a 45KT (by design) thermonuclear, then the BARC people must be knowing that beforehand. Then why to declare 45KT in the first place.

Cheers....

Answering myself.

Ramana wrote in 'Dr Chidambaram's talk on Pokharan II' at Thu Dec 12, 2002 11:05 pm

Taking 22kt as teh secondary yield and that translates to (22/50)* 1 kg = 440 grams. The question is how much was put in? PKI thinks its 10 times that which is overkill in case the design was efficient.
So I think taking the shaft capability(can handle <50 kt) and real world efficiencies and the fission plug it was closer to 1kg.

Now I got what you wanted to say.

Cheers....

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 12 Sep 2008 01:37

Great pics. The usable fitness exhibited by that Malkhamb demo would (hopefully) address the concerns of those posters who thought that the Wushu/Kungfu choreography of PLA will cause us trouble in the upper Himalayas.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Sep 2008 02:28

if you ask me PLA has a dedicated "special photo-shop research bureau", the sheer amount of almost professional level jobs that keep coming out on the net. nothing like disinformation.

Babui · Post by **Babui** » 12 Sep 2008 03:55

I had no idea that JaKLI did the Malkhamb !! However, its great news if this exercise permeates to all the regiments from the Marathas. A combination of strength and flexibility, in my opinion, is far better than the upper body musculature that US army tends to favor.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 12 Sep 2008 05:42

I agree. The Indian Army still marches to its posts mostly on foot and does not have the chopper taxis available to the average US GI. Moreover in high altitude areas and hot deserts, better to have lean muscle rather than bulk...bulky arnold type physique look great but naturally have lesser stamina and need more fuel.

Babui wrote:I had no idea that JaKLI did the Malkhamb !! However, its great news if this exercise permeates to all the regiments from the Marathas. A combination of strength and flexibility, in my opinion, is far better than the upper body musculature that US army tends to favor.

sunny_s · Post by **sunny_s** » 12 Sep 2008 11:01

CAN SOMEBODY TELL ME ARE THOSE BALLISTIS HELMETS WHICH THE CHINESE ARE WEARING..OR THEY ARE ORDINARY HELMETS DESIGNED LIKE BALLISTIC ONE...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Sep 2008 11:04

sunny bhai, ALL CAPS is considered SHOUTING ! please don't do that.
regards.

ssmitra · Post by **ssmitra** » 12 Sep 2008 17:56

Raja Bose wrote:I agree. The Indian Army still marches to its posts mostly on foot and does not have the chopper taxis available to the average US GI. Moreover in high altitude areas and hot deserts, better to have lean muscle rather than bulk...bulky arnold type physique look great but naturally have lesser stamina and need more fuel.

Babui wrote:I had no idea that JaKLI did the Malkhamb !! However, its great news if this exercise permeates to all the regiments from the Marathas. A combination of strength and flexibility, in my opinion, is far better than the upper body musculature that US army tends to favor.

While I understand the jingoistic love for our jawans
What makes you think that the average GI does not have to undergo the usual forced marches and maintain stamina and fitness required during active service. The fitness level of of active duty american soldiers is not more or less than the average Indian Soldier.

Does anyone here know that standard pack weight of an Indian Infantryman?

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 12 Sep 2008 18:54

ssmitra wrote: Does anyone here know that standard pack weight of an Indian Infantryman?

if you are talking about standard "pithoo" then it weighs around 20 or 25 kg.

sum · Post by **sum** » 12 Sep 2008 19:46

Police taking out a march in the Old City area of Hyderabad ahead of the Ganesh Nimajjan. Seems these men got some good protection.

Freaking scary to see such huge number of riot gear policemen all for a simple Ganesh festival celebration...Guess the old city area is still semi-autonomous(for the non-believers at least)

sunny_s · Post by **sunny_s** » 12 Sep 2008 22:01

sorry bro will remember that...thanks

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 12 Sep 2008 22:10

MN Kumar wrote: Police taking out a march in the Old City area of Hyderabad ahead of the Ganesh Nimajjan. Seems these men got some good protection.

there seems to be a difference between cops walking on either side....cops on left have good gear and on right are on standard protection...

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Sep 2008 22:14

the well known left-right divide in India with no-one taking the middle path !