India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

raj_singh
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby raj_singh » 06 Sep 2008 01:16

John Snow

Keeping at a safe distance be it friend or foe is always desirable.


Not according to the dialogue in Godfather. :)

India has changed but unkil has not changed his vision, only tatctics.


I do not know or am sure about what "vision" is being referred to here. However, broadly speaking, vision of a country does not and should not change at all ( to clarify the vision part here...economic well being/securit and things flowing from there). It is the strategies and tactics that change with cirucumstance/time.

Not applicable or referring to dictators....
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby harbans » 06 Sep 2008 01:19

This is the correct time to announce construction of 37 Thermal coal based power plants each of 1980 MW over the next 8.5 years. All losses of carbon credit will be billed to 6 pack pipsqueak.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby ramana » 06 Sep 2008 01:20

GOI is doing the right thing. The six and their shenanigans are being exposed. There is no loss in approaching the NSG to get the waiver. Its theirs to lose.

No need to flaunt force if there is no intent to use it.

I am not concerned with the six and the US shenanigans. I believe the leak of letter was move by them and not an angry Congressman.

I am a little pertrubed at the Chinese delegate having to consult his home base. That means the there is a change in their game plan and expectations have not been met. Most likely the new language allows India in a manner they didnt expect.

Instead of rollicking I suggest folks look out for the PRC feedback.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby enqyoob » 06 Sep 2008 01:24

Welcome the New NSG Member: Has all the right qualifications incl. extensive experience with nuclear supplies and aerial delivery systems.
Rice lands in Libya on historic visit

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Sean » 06 Sep 2008 01:25

ramana wrote:I am a little pertrubed at the Chinese delegate having to consult his home base. That means the there is a change in their game plan and expectations have not been met. Most likely the new language allows India in a manner they didnt expect.

I hope consulting does not imply a trip back to Beijing, and postponement of NSG decision to a future date.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 06 Sep 2008 01:27

Is it too difficult for the PMO to say, that our Red Lines have been crossed, and there is no Deal? India has no other choice than to walk away from the deal.

I'll not mention Pokhran III again. Pokhran III. Oooops Sorry!

This is now the only way left, for MMS to save his dignity, because with all the confusing language he has let pass through in the NSG Waiver. He will have one hell of a time, convincing anybody that he has not sold the country Lock, Stock and Barrel.

If he can't convince me, the biggest supporter of all times of the Nuclear Deal, who wouldn't buy a toaster from BJP or the Left, how is he going to convince anybody at all, who are going to be under the barrage of BJP and Commie Propaganda from today onwards.

Walkout is his only chance, and also for Congress.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Bharati » 06 Sep 2008 01:28

Something as important as this should have been debated in the parliament and the country country should have been taken into confidence. The UPA sat on this for years only trying to convince the left.
Strangely, decisions in all matters, including those which greatly affect the future of the country are taken by the ruling party (however unstable the ruling coalition might be). I wonder what MMS and SG have been promised to force this upon the country when the political risks are huge.
Somehow, I find it hard to digest that it purely out of patriotism.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby enqyoob » 06 Sep 2008 01:32

It's now nearly 10pm in Vienna. I guess the NSG Meeting Hall looks empty as most of the members are lying under their tables snoring and the Chinese Ambassador is going around, kneeling to pick their pockets. Must sound like Wagner's 6th Symphony with all the snoring. This is why the Chinese claim that they have to exit for the airport, before anyone misses their debit cards. Instruction from Beijing:
The Amelican Expless Calds. Don't reave Vienna without them!
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 06 Sep 2008 01:32

Bharati wrote:Something as important as this should have been debated in the parliament and the country country should have been taken into confidence. The UPA sat on this for years only trying to convince the left.
Strangely, decisions in all matters, including those which greatly affect the future of the country are taken by the ruling party (however unstable the ruling coalition might be). I wonder what MMS and SG have been promised to force this upon the country when the political risks are huge.
Somehow, I find it hard to digest that it purely out of patriotism.


I never doubted in MMS's patriotism (except when he loses sleep for the mothers of terrorists, apprehended in far off lands). In this case, he has simply lost control and is being dragged over coals to accept ever more conditions because he has invested everything and can't find a bridge back.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby munna » 06 Sep 2008 01:32

If he can't convince me, the biggest supporter of all times of the Nuclear Deal, who wouldn't buy a toaster from BJP or the Left, how is he going to convince anybody at all, who are going to be under the barrage of BJP and Commie Propaganda from today onwards.

Walkout is his only chance, and also for Congress.


Exactly Rajesh! There was a lot of support for the deal even in the BJP but it evaporated at the first logical evaluation by Mr Shourie. The question is when even the supporters start doubting the deal then how credible the whole process of negotiating and signing it is?
PS: I am also a convert ie former pro dealer now doing bum bum bholay.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 06 Sep 2008 01:34

narayanan wrote:It's now nearly 10pm in Vienna. I guess the NSG Meeting Hall looks empty as most of the members are lying under their tables snoring and the Chinese Ambassador is going around, kneeling to pick their pockets. Must sound like Wagner's 6th Symphony with all the snoring.


Maybe the negotiations have moved on to the night clubs. There they can negotiate till the early morning. More importantly I guess, that would have been the only way to keep the Chinese delegation from flying away.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby vsudhir » 06 Sep 2008 01:34

Is it too difficult for the PMO to say, that our Red Lines have been crossed, and there is no Deal. India has no other choice than to walk away from the deal.


Why allow the sweet-talkin' CRE schemers and interlocuters the satisfaction of then blaming yindia for the failure of the deal? Moi'd rather GoI take a 'domestic' view of the situ and institute a commission to study whether any red lines have been crossed. To be doubly sure, maybe GoI could itself file for an injunction/stay-order against its own, self-commissioned commission. All time-buying tactics onlee. Even the chinis will be expressedly impressed, IMO :mrgreen:

Soon, shall be clear for the rest of us non-commissioned observers bether any lal lines were double-crossed onlee.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby munna » 06 Sep 2008 01:35

Slightly OT: Bharti apparently there is a credible story doing rounds in the corridors of power, find out :twisted: . Dig and ye shall find.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Pulikeshi » 06 Sep 2008 01:38

Source:
Image

kisko kay rishvat dene padega? ration card tho booka nangoko be mil jata hai apna des me!
Jayda bole to resarvation be laga denge sasure!
:P :mrgreen: :rotfl:
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby harbans » 06 Sep 2008 01:38

I just heard on the networks some time back the meeting is going on, there's no FOOD, no restaurants in the venue, no restaurants in the area, and many diplomats have had to cancel their flights because they never expected this to drag on so much. Lousy venue for sure is Vienna. :eek:
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby enqyoob » 06 Sep 2008 01:39

I predict that the Definitive Vote will occur in another 20 minutes, with all 3 voting members still awake voting "Yes". Trouble is, can they get the New Zealand and Austrian ambassadors drunk enough in time?

I move this resholyooshun! I shecond it! All in favor say..


New Zealand Ambassaodr: "I..."

Passed Unanimously.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 06 Sep 2008 01:41

narayanan wrote:I predict that the Definitive Vote will occur in another 20 minutes, with all 3 voting members still awake voting "Yes". Trouble is, can they get the New Zealand and Austrian ambassadors drunk enough in time?

I move this resholyooshun! I shecond it! All in favor say..


New Zealand Ambassaodr: "I..."

Passed Unanimously.


You can't get the Irish drunk! How are going to solve that problem.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Pulikeshi » 06 Sep 2008 01:43

RajeshA,

That is why God invented coffee - just given the Irish creme sipping dude a Turkish espresso with Bailey's

Coffee use sona nahi dega aur alcohol use jagna nahi dega!
Tab ayega maza! :rotfl:
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby John Snow » 06 Sep 2008 01:43

should read "Pass Out" unanimously Or Anonmously? :rotfl:

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby ramana » 06 Sep 2008 01:44

N^3 are there any EU based news orgs that we can look at? What does the Hsinhua Agency say? Did the PRC rep really leave or just to consult his home base?

That was an apt cartoon. I would have a AQK looking guy carrying a bag of the goods.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Bharati » 06 Sep 2008 01:45

Have the RED lines been crossed in the draft as of now? Do we know what all changes went into it in the last 48 hrs?
Is ENR indeed out? If yes, why and what are we negotiating?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Bharati » 06 Sep 2008 01:48

The PRC stunt seems a ploy just to delay the process. They do not want to be the only ones to vote against the waiver, and know there wouldn't be a need for it after today.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 06 Sep 2008 01:50

ramana wrote:N^3 are there any EU based news orgs that we can look at? What does the Hsinhua Agency say? Did the PRC rep really leave or just to consult his home base?

That was an apt cartoon. I would have a AQK looking guy carrying a bag of the goods.


I am looking at updates by Mark Heinrich from Reuters.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby ramana » 06 Sep 2008 01:53

I see no confirmation of the Mark Heinrich story about the PRC rep wanting to return to PRC. There is only the Reuters report.

Our man in Vienna, Vardarajan is not reporting the same.

What does AP say and the NPA blogs?
---------------
And the Reuters report has edited that out now! :(

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 06 Sep 2008 01:54

Pulikeshi wrote:RajeshA,

That is why God invented coffee - just given the Irish creme sipping dude a Turkish espresso.
Tab ayega maza! :rotfl:


William Burns has adopted the tested and tried methods of George W. Bush's Administration: Torture through Sleep Deprivation. :D

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Prem » 06 Sep 2008 02:21

Its 1107pm , must be time to watch late night Kung Pu movie?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby ramana » 06 Sep 2008 02:21

Soemone was asking when will India need to test?

The INC spokesman Singhvi inadvertetnly provided the answer

The Congress emphasised that nuclear test in any case was not in the agenda at the NSG meeting in Vienna.

"In 35 years, we felt the need to test only twice.

Testing is not an every day requirement," he said, adding, "in the next 15-20 years, there would be enough reserves and even if one country out of 45 stops cooperation (in the event of a nuclear test), the others would come forward".



He knows India will have to test sometime in future but does not provide the logic for it. I wonder what will be the scenario in 15-20 years that prompts the peaceful and test averse INC spokesperson to forecast such an eventuality?

Atleast till the PRC rep comes back to the mtg room!

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 06 Sep 2008 02:28

If instead of us, it was Pakis negotiating with the NSG, they would have got an agreement on August 21st itself. They would have just pointed a gun to their own heads and threatened everybody to pull the trigger. Considering how averse the 6-pack are to violence, they would have promptly signed on on the dotted line.

Onlee we stupid SDRE, don't know how to negotiate! :roll:

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 06 Sep 2008 02:32

It is 23:20 in Vienna, Austria. They have got only 40 minutes left, because the NSG Plenaray Meeting was supposed to be only on Sept 4-5. :shock:

This makes everything so un-kanshti-tushy-nal!
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby A Arun » 06 Sep 2008 02:34

Soemone was asking when will India need to test?


Unever Cohen said in an interview yesterday that India might feel the need to test a superior version of weapon when they develop it in 15-20 years time.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby ramana » 06 Sep 2008 02:37

Oh Yeah! Where did he say that? From what I figured that its ready except the global situation doesnt require it.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby A Arun » 06 Sep 2008 02:41

Yesterday, in response to a question from Barkha Dutt.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby John Snow » 06 Sep 2008 02:44

The initial muhurat of 123 was signed during Rahu Kal(amu) and the aspect of Shani (bush) is all too evident along with Rahu( New zealand) and Ketu(prc) is all now clearly visible.
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 06 Sep 2008 02:47

We know need to impress on Cheney, he should consider to extend his trail of destruction to the NSG itself.

Cheney: G' Mornin' George.

Bush: G' Mornin' Dick.

Cheney: Did ya hear. The 4th country on the axis of evil, was making some problems yesterday night.

Bush: 4the Country! What ya mean. I thought there were only 3 out there.

Cheney: Nope. You keep forgetting about EnEssJee Land, George. We need to destroy it, before it destroy us.

Bush: Well what a ya waitin' for? Just do it, Dick!

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 06 Sep 2008 02:49

Last-ditch talks on to avert NSG dead-end by Siddharth Varadarajan: Hindu

U.S., India in eleventh hour exchange of drafting language on nuclear deal

Vienna: With a number of states continuing to insist on a clear “cause and effect” link between a future Indian atomic test and the termination of nuclear supplies, desperate three-way negotiations were under way here on Friday night between American, Indian and G-6 country officials over the wording and structure of the U.S. proposal to allow nuclear commerce with India.

Indian officials remained non-committal about the prospect of the waiver coming through, saying one would have to “wait and see” what kind of language emerged through the different stages of the ongoing consultations.

According to a diplomatic source, the U.S. was conducting parallel consultations in small groups to hammer out an agreement and “the whole thing now has to be integrated in some way.” Among the countries pressing for tougher language were Ireland, New Zealand and China, they said.

At the time of going to press, a diplomat from the Group of Six ‘likeminded nations’ holding out for tougher conditions told The Hindu that “the meetings are still on and we’re not likely to have final agreement tonight [Friday] given the need for some delegations to get instructions [from their governments] on the revised text.” With the U.S. and other NSG members meeting on the 27th floor of a building housing the Japanese mission to the U.N. and the Indian delegation camping at the Intercontinental Hotel across the Danube, draft language was being exchanged back and forth in an attempt to avert the breakdown of the process which had seemed inevitable at the start of the day.

The six countries holding out for tougher conditions to be written into the draft proposal granting India an exemption from the NSG’s rules are Austria, Ireland, New Zealand, Norway, the Netherlands and Switzerland. At the same time, the number of countries pushing for approval of the exemption has also grown, say diplomats. Under the 45-nation cartel’s rules of consensus decision-making, however, even one country has the right to block a decision.

A lengthy meeting between the U.S. and the G-6 ended inconclusively late on Thursday night with the latter refusing to accept any dilution of their demands. “There are still very different views on both sides. We made some progress on minor issues but on the principal questions, there has been no movement,” a diplomat from one of the six countries told The Hindu on Friday morning. “I can’t see any way to bridge the divide,” he added. “Not unless a major shift in position [by India and the U.S.] occurs.”

The first sign of forward movement became apparent soon after External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee released a formal statement reiterating India’s nonproliferation commitments, including its unilateral, voluntary moratorium. “The statement was really very helpful,” a diplomat from a Nordic country said. But the G-6 remained unimpressed. “We welcome it but it is not enough to resolve the outstanding difficulties with the main text [of the waiver],” said a diplomat from a G-6 country. “Voluntary declarations do not have the same value as agreed NSG text,” he added.

As the day wore on, the plenary frequently adjourned to allow consultations between the U.S. and those countries with outstanding issues, but towards later afternoon a potential formula within the NSG — at least in terms of structure — emerged. “What we are looking at are [the adoption of] auxiliary measures in addition to the waiver so that there can be a qualitative improvement of the international security architecture,” Peter Launsky- Tieffenthal, spokesman of the Austrian Foreign Ministry, told The Hindu on Friday evening. He said the issue at hand was the “quality” of the decision and that devices existed to extend the duration of a meeting if needed. “The decision may not come tonight but a little later.”

Indian officials refused to comment on the proposal of auxiliary measures, saying a final judgment could only be made on the basis of an actual proposal.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby rsingh » 06 Sep 2008 02:57

Austria ? oh not again. We used to have an Austrian guy in class who used to sit in the last row as if to watch everybody. He would speak in the end after listening everyone's argument and then would pullout something wiered out of Musharaff. :rotfl: :rotfl: It is strange country.......try to find WC on Vienna' Airport and you will understand :((
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby vsudhir » 06 Sep 2008 02:58

Seems like the chinis figured filibustering the nsg meeting was the best way out.

If the cheenees walk out (to go home consult with HQ etc) or abstain, the waiver could still be obtained on the basis of unanimous quorum consensus.

Or have I spoken too soon and the meeting is over?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby sivab » 06 Sep 2008 03:04

ramana wrote:I see no confirmation of the Mark Heinrich story about the PRC rep wanting to return to PRC. There is only the Reuters report.

Our man in Vienna, Vardarajan is not reporting the same.

What does AP say and the NPA blogs?
---------------
And the Reuters report has edited that out now! :(


http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.p ... &id=221007

Suspense over NSG waiver

PTI & SNS
VIENNA/NEW DELHI, Sept. 5: Suspense heightened tonight over India getting NSG waiver with tough negotiations going down to the wire as China reportedly threw a spanner but the USA pushed hard with a revised draft to bring naysayers on board for a consensus.
As parleys spilled close to midnight on changes to woo countries like Austria, Ireland and New Zealand and the US and Indian officials worked on amendments to the draft, the Chinese delegation is believed to have made it clear that they need to get back to Beijing.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby ramana » 06 Sep 2008 03:05

From the Vardarajan article

As the day wore on, the plenary frequently adjourned to allow consultations between the U.S. and those countries with outstanding issues, but towards later afternoon a potential formula within the NSG — at least in terms of structure — emerged. “What we are looking at are [the adoption of] auxiliary measures in addition to the waiver so that there can be a qualitative improvement of the international security architecture,” Peter Launsky- Tieffenthal, spokesman of the Austrian Foreign Ministry, told The Hindu on Friday evening. He said the issue at hand was the “quality” of the decision and that devices existed to extend the duration of a meeting if needed. “The decision may not come tonight but a little later.”

Indian officials refused to comment on the proposal of auxiliary measures, saying a final judgment could only be made on the basis of an actual proposal.


The holdouts are asking for a lot more thant cosmetic language changes. And the US is going along changing the draft to suit their requiremnts. And they come up with new demands. I dont know if the sum total of the chages to the draft will deteiorate qaulitatively fromthe clean but conditional waiver that India sought. The auxilary measures are egregious.

And the US nows that these are unpalatable to India and hence is making the delegation look at them before its released. By now the draft counts is more than four.

Is NSA MKN there or is SS Menon carryng all the burden on himself? I know there is no politican for they have outsourced their responsibilty to the officials to allow for blowback.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby ramana » 06 Sep 2008 03:07

Sivab, It could be rewrite of the Reuters story. The grammar is same. I doubt that PTI has a reporter at Vienna.


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