India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

CRamS
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby CRamS » 06 Sep 2008 03:08

ramana wrote:Oh Yeah! Where did he say that? From what I figured that its ready except the global situation doesnt require it.


Uneven was pretty explicit in upholding US interests. He basically said an Indian test to perfect its weapon designs will be unacceptable to US. The only situation when an Indian test would be acceptable, in fact he said nobody would even care, would be if for some reason an Indian test follows a US test.

Thus, someone posted the number of tests the P-5 did to perfect their nuclear arsenal. India is not even close. If this deal pretty much takes away India's ability to test for perfecting its deterrant, is it not de-facto CRE?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby harbans » 06 Sep 2008 03:09

Among the countries pressing for tougher language were Ireland, New Zealand and China, they said.


Can these idiot nations see the Company they're keeping now..? There's going to be no meeting after this night club session. Thats out. I just wish the Indians are capable of not budging even though they are tired. I've worked (many here possibly too) Tuesday to Friday on a row. I wish the Indian negotiators are capable of clear thinking working on a 24 hour shift day in Vienna and in Delhi. Some of these diplomats and mantri Jis are just not capable of that stamina. I hope i am wrong.
Last edited by harbans on 06 Sep 2008 03:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby ramana » 06 Sep 2008 03:11

CRS, Let the clean waiver come and then we can talk.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby ramana » 06 Sep 2008 03:15

Not my headline!

America counts N Chickens


Very apt as the leaked letter shows that the stuff will be hostage to the US whims and fancies.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby putnanja » 06 Sep 2008 03:20

Sleepless in Vienna: China threatens to leave for home, US works into the night

Sleepless in Vienna: China threatens to leave for home, US works into the night
Pranab Dhal Samanta
Posted online: Saturday, September 06, 2008 at 0208 hrs Print Email
Vienna: Austria, Ireland holding out, revised draft goes to Washington for clearance; India reiterates commitment on non-proliferation

Vienna, September 5: With Austria and Ireland still holding out and the Chinese delegation threatening to leave for Beijing, tough negotiations were on late into the night at the 45-member Nuclear Suppliers Group in Vienna to forge a consensus to end India’s three and a half decades of nuclear isolation.


A new NSG draft was in the works and had been sent to Washington for clearance although India made it clear that there was almost no scope to revise the draft in substantive terms.

The Chinese, sources said, objected to what they called was the manner in which matters were being pushed on an issue they said involved the future of the global non-proliferation regime.

Well aware of the stakes in the Indo-US nuclear deal — and the tight Congressional calendar ahead — the “highest levels” in Washington got in touch with their counterparts in Beijing to get China to stay on by including it in the consultative process.


China, which until yesterday was in the background trying to play arbitrator of sorts by suggesting to hold another meeting, seemed to suddenly reveal its hand in the most unexpected manner.

This happened even as US was in consultations with holdout countries like Austria, Ireland and New Zealand on the one hand and India on the other, to work out a resolution.

Among the suggestions from some countries to break the deadlock was to place a provision banning transfer of enrichment and reprocessing technology. India has so far maintained it cannot accept a restriction not existing in current NSG guidelines.

Austria and Ireland were, however, keen to introduce language on testing. Austria, in particular, cited domestic concerns.


India and US spent the whole day today slowly chipping away at the opposition with External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee issuing a statement underlining New Delhi’s commitment to global disarmament and strengthening the international non-proliferation regime.

The statement was circulated immediately at the start of the NSG meet this morning soon after it was clear that the Netherlands and Norway had moved away from the club of six holdouts.

The meeting broke up within 90 minutes as countries said they had to consult their respective capitals.

At that point, US Under Secretary of State for Arms Control John Rood emerged from the discussions and welcomed what he called India’s “very significant statement.” It “has generated a positive momentum for the discussions,” he said. “We both are committed to the objective of achieving a consensus and are optimistic that we can achieve this goal.”

The statement, as reported by The Indian Express today, was one of the key proposals on the table to assuage concerns of some holdout countries. Besides reaffirming the Indian position on disarmament, Mukherjee’s statement sought to address key concerns raised by sceptics in the NSG.

“India will not be a source of proliferation of sensitive technologies, including enrichment and reprocessing transfers. We stand for strengthening of the non-proliferation regime. We support international efforts to limit the spread of ENR equipment or technologies to states that do not have them. We will work together with the international community to advance our common objective of non-proliferation,” Mukherjee said.

It’s learnt that based on this statement, countries like Switzerland and New Zealand were willing to reconsider their stand but the opposition from Austria remained strident. Elections are due soon here and the incumbent Social Democratic Party is in coalition with the Greens Party that is vehemently opposed to nuclear energy.

Sources said Austria conveyed that it fears domestic repercussions given the publicity this meeting has had in Vienna. Holding on steadfastly with the Austrians are the Irish who are traditionally strong NPT votaries. Both the countries are insisting some language directly referring to testing in the NSG draft.

From an Indian standpoint, sources said, all efforts were being made to get the exemption past the group today but at some point, the hope is that the majority may weigh down on the last of the few sceptics.

The long 48 hours

•Out of 45 NSG countries, how many were the first to wave the red flag?

Six countries: Austria, Ireland, the Netherlands, Norway, New Zealand and Switzerland

•When 39 countries supported the n-deal, why did these 6 hold out?

They have strong non-proliferation lobbies at work at home, and tough domestic laws.

New Zealand and Austria are going to polls.

•Does the determined opposition mean the US and India read the NSG wrong?

It was always known that the NSG would be tough, but the squeezing of the calendar has led to this situation. Originally, the NSG phase was supposed to be spread over 6 weeks.

•What steps did the US take to bring the 'holdouts' on board?

The US was in touch with them at the highest political level. In the NSG, the UK, France and Russia too were trying to convince them.

•Until late on Friday night, who were still holding out? Why?

Austria and Ireland. Austria's ruling coalition includes the Greens (the Leftists).

Ireland is a strong non-proliferation votary. New Zealand was still not open about support but unlikely to hold out if these two countries move out of the way.

•What has been China's role?

The stated position was they won't obstruct. But they have now questioned the need to hurry and today, even threatened to leave the meeting saying they were not being consulted.

•If the NSG talks fail, what happens next?

The NSG calls for another meeting and if that gives a waiver, the US could call a special session of Congress to pass the deal

•Why are US, India so keen on an immediate waiver?

One, the Congressional calender is too tight to allow any breathing space; two, India, US don’t want to leave the fate of the deal in the uncertain hands of the next regime.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby A Arun » 06 Sep 2008 03:22

NDTV has updates. Lizard has shown its true colours, wants further changes in the draft. Bush has called up Hu Jintao.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Baljeet » 06 Sep 2008 03:22

rsingh wrote:Austria ? oh not again. We used to have an Austrian guy in class who used to sit in the last row as if to watch everybody. He would speak in the end after listening everyone's argument and then would pullout something wiered out of Musharaff. :rotfl: :rotfl: It is strange country.......try to find WC on Vienna' Airport and you will understand :((

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Austrians and Irish are suffering from little man syndrome. They got into big boys club and now playing spoil sport. Irish IT Services are provided by Pakis another country with little man syndrome. They have their business reasons to pander to pakis.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby putnanja » 06 Sep 2008 03:24

‘But there is nothing new’ - Arun Shourie

SPECIAL TO THE EXPRESS
PART-1

‘But there is nothing new’
Arun Shourie
Posted online: Saturday, September 06, 2008 at 0125 hrs Print Email
The government and the media persist in peddling patent fictions

Arun Shourie

But why now? Why on the eve of the NSG meeting in Vienna?” — the cry went up. Entirely predictably: when they can’t deal with the facts of a disclosure, the embarrassed always demand, “But why now?” Should we not, on the contrary, be grateful that, at least at this penultimate hour, someone has awakened us to what the government is bartering away in Vienna? Is there an inauspicious time for being awakened to the facts? “The secret letter has been revealed by a known opponent of the nuclear deal,” they say — as if the fact that the person disclosing the document is a known opponent of the deal, in some way dilutes the veracity of the text! And this from a newspaper that discloses secret documents every other week!

“But there is nothing new in the US Administration letter to the Congress,” say the spokesmen of the government, and its apologists in the media. Actually, that very fact, as we shall soon see, makes things all the worse. Indeed, the American ambassador, David Mulford, has been more specific: he has said that the letter that the administration sent to the US Congress contains nothing that has not already been shared with the Indian government. In a word, the government has known all these facts all along, and has yet continued to assert its falsehoods to the contrary for months on end. The US administration letter, in fact, reveals more: on point after point, it reveals that the Indian government, while asserting falsehoods to the contrary here in India, has not just been in the know of what the Americans were extracting, it agreed with the construction the Americans had put on the clauses in question.

“Falsehoods” is the right word, make no mistake.

“The Hyde Act does not apply to us,” government spokesmen have been insisting. “We are bound by the 123 Agreement alone.” Indeed, as recently as July 2 this year, the prime minister’s office asserted, “the 123 Agreement clearly overrides the Hyde Act and this position would be clear to anyone going through the provisions.” That is patent nonsense. Article 2 of the 123 Agreement provides that in implementing it, the two countries shall be governed by, among other things, their “national laws”. What are the national laws of the US in this regard? The Atomic Energy Act of 1954 and the Hyde Act. Does the Hyde Act apply or not?

But clauses apart, even a fool can see through the lie in that: does the Hyde Act apply to the Americans or not? That is all that is required for the consequences listed in the Act to follow. Suppose we test. What are the Americans bound to do in return by law? Both by the Hyde Act as well as the original Atomic Energy Act of 1954, they must immediately cease all nuclear commerce with India. By both these Acts as well as the guidelines of the NSG, they must ensure that every other member of the NSG also ceases all nuclear cooperation with India. In a word, by the laws that apply to them, the Americans have to bring upon us the full weight of sanctions. What comfort is it that the sanctions fall upon us by laws applicable to them and not applicable to us?

That simple and brutal fact is compounded by the 123 Agreement. In Question 3, the US Congress asks the Bush administration, “Does the Administration believe that the nuclear cooperation agreement with India overrides the Hyde Act regarding any apparent conflicts, discrepancies, or inconsistencies? Does this include provisions in the Hyde Act which do not appear in the nuclear cooperation agreement?” In turn, the Bush administration says that the 123 agreement “is in full conformity with the Hyde Act,” that it is “consistent with the legal requirements of both the Hyde Act and the Atomic Energy Act” — both of them, incidentally, require that, to take just one example, the agreement be terminated forthwith the moment India conducts a test, even for “peaceful purposes”.

The prime minister has said over and over again that the cooperation shall be “full”, that it shall cover all aspects of the full nuclear cycle. In particular, that India shall have full access to “sensitive technologies”. Anything less, Manmohan Singh has said again and again, shall be inconsistent with the statement he had signed with Bush, and India shall not accept such a dilution. Persons like me have pointed out from the beginning that this just cannot be the case, that the Americans have an unambiguous policy in this regard, a policy that has been reiterated personally by Bush as well as by the US Congress — namely, that countries like India shall not be given access to technologies for enrichment, reprocessing or heavy water production. Manmohan Singh has gone on repeating, “Full means full”.

And as proof, the government’s propagandists have been pointing to Article 5(2) of the 123 Agreement. This clause in fact is just a sleight of words. It says that these “sensitive technologies... may be transferred to India under this agreement pursuant to an amendment to this agreement.” Even then, the clause clearly records, the transfer “will be subject to the Parties’ respective applicable laws, regulations and license policies.” Hence, three conditions: (a) “may be”; (b) “pursuant to an amendment to this agreement”; and (c) “subject to the Parties’ respective applicable laws, regulations and license policies.” In spite of this, the Government’s propagandists have kept repeating that India has won access to these sensitive technologies.

In its answers to not one but six questions (questions 4 to 9) from the US Congress, Bush’s administration says six times, that the sensitive technologies will not be transferred and that there is no proposal at all to amend the 123 Agreement!

Similarly, government spokesmen have maintained that our right to reprocess spent fuel has been recognised. Indeed, Manmohan Singh himself has said that our reprocessing rights have been recognized so much so that they shall be “permanent”. The answers to questions 26 and 29, as indeed Articles 11 and 12 of the 123 Agreement itself, indicate that we shall be able to reprocess the spent fuel only in a facility (a) set up at our cost; (b) under IAEA oversight; (c) and only in accordance with “arrangements and procedures” to which the US agrees. As for the right being “permanent”, the answer to question 44 gives the lie. The answer does not just reiterate that the “arrangements and procedures” under which the reprocessing may be done shall have to be agreed to by the US; it says, “the proposed arrangements and procedures with India will provide for withdrawal of reprocessing consent.” Permanent?

Manmohan Singh has insisted all along that India shall not accept any oversight or inspections other than what it shall agree to under the “India specific safeguards” in its agreement with the IAEA. Persons like me drew attention to the stern and absolutely unambiguous statements of Condoleezza Rice; to the report of the joint committee of the US Congress; as well as to the provisions of the Hyde Act, which specifically provided that India shall have to accept “fallback safeguards” - that is, should, in the judgment of the IAEA or the US, the IAEA be unable to perform its inspections adequately, the US shall have the right to institute inspections and other measures of oversight through other agencies - its own or those of some other international bodies. Even as it was asserting the contrary, Manmohan Singh’s Government, agreed to have these additional inspections and restrictions through Articles 10 and 16(3) of the 123 Agreement. All that was done was that instead of the US inspectors being called “inspectors”, they were called “experts”. Through these clauses, India agreed to ensure for them the fullest access to sites and data that they wanted to inspect.

In its answers to questions 10 to 13, the US administration has reiterated four times that, yes, there shall be these additional fallback safeguards and inspections. Not just that, the administration tells the US Congress that, in addition to pledging that it is accepting IAEA safeguards and inspections in perpetuity, the Indian government “fully appreciates that paragraph 1 of Article 10 of the Agreement does not limit the safeguards required by the Agreement to Agency (that is, IAEA) safeguards.” In a word, while we were being told the exact opposite — “We shall not allow American inspectors to roam around our facilities” — the Manmohan Singh government had accepted that very roaming around.

To be concluded

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby NRao » 06 Sep 2008 03:29

The game plan for GoI is to collect enough reserves to ride out any noise due to testing. Hmmm...... we have a plan.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby hnair » 06 Sep 2008 03:43

From RaviBG's post from IE,

The Chinese, sources said, objected to what they called was the manner in which matters were being pushed on an issue they said involved the future of the global non-proliferation regime.

:rotfl:

China, which until yesterday was in the background trying to play arbitrator of sorts by suggesting to hold another meeting, seemed to suddenly reveal its hand in the most unexpected manner.

:rotfl: at the underlined one. Unexpected?

•What has been China's role?

The stated position was they won't obstruct. But they have now questioned the need to hurry and today, even threatened to leave the meeting saying they were not being consulted.

1) What was the need to hurry with let us say, Three Gorges Dam?
2) not consulted? What the f**k where the chinese delegates doing in Vienna? trawling the men's room of some "Austrian alternative club"?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby ashish raval » 06 Sep 2008 03:47

Baljeet wrote:
rsingh wrote:Austria ? oh not again. We used to have an Austrian guy in class who used to sit in the last row as if to watch everybody. He would speak in the end after listening everyone's argument and then would pullout something wiered out of Musharaff. :rotfl: :rotfl: It is strange country.......try to find WC on Vienna' Airport and you will understand :((

RSingh
Austrians and Irish are suffering from little man syndrome. They got into big boys club and now playing spoil sport. Irish IT Services are provided by Pakis another country with little man syndrome. They have their business reasons to pander to pakis.


Yeh right Baljeet. Austrians are wierd ones and one of them is listed here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case

Ireland has a reason to get threatened from India's rise in IT which is their bread and butter and China knows they are not going to get any contract so why should they allow Americans to eat the cake. NZ is a racist nation so it is expected. Swiss are known for neutrality for ages now. Norway are in the league of wierds like Austria. Netherlands are pissed of by paki rats shouting in streets of Amsterdam (having bitter experience with paki - Khan) and think that Indian people will be the same (ignorant). Rest all are normal people and happy to see through the light and welcome new big boy in the club.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby bhavin » 06 Sep 2008 03:56

ashish raval wrote:..........

Yeh right Baljeet. Austrians are wierd ones and one of them is listed here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case

Ireland has a reason to get threatened from India's rise in IT which is their bread and butter and China knows they are not going to get any contract so why should they allow Americans to eat the cake. NZ is a racist nation so it is expected. Swiss are known for neutrality for ages now. Norway are in the league of wierds like Austria. Netherlands are pissed of by paki rats shouting in streets of Amsterdam (having bitter experience with paki - Khan) and think that Indian people will be the same (ignorant). Rest all are normal people and happy to see through the light and welcome new big boy in the club.


Ashish - This is a very simplistic generalization. The motives go much deeper than that. Ireland is not in India's league... Chinese opposition is not about money but more strategic than that. They want to hinder and slow the growth of India in any way, shape or form and hence their opposition. Swiss are hardly neutral - they are neutral only when it suits them or where they are in the danger of getting wiped out. Netherlands is hardly innocent in the AQK enterprise - more knowledgeable posters than myself have posted numerous references to complicity of these european powers in the AQK nukeMart.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby sivab » 06 Sep 2008 04:04

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/st ... 0080064265

Hectic lobbying on to seek NSG waiver for India
NDTV Correspondent
Saturday, September 06, 2008, (Vienna)
Hectic lobbying is on in Vienna to seek NSG waiver for India. US President George Bush has called Chinese President Hu Jintao to seek China's support.

China has sought changes in the NSG draft.

US President has reportedly also called Irish leadership.


Some small countries have become the biggest stumbling blocks at the NSG meet. They have sought changes in NSG draft, according to NDTV reports.

Sources told NDTV that Americans are in consultations with Washington on changes to the draft.

Austria has been leading with the demand for changes in the nuclear waiver for India.

China, New Zealand, Austria, Switzerland and Ireland have raised objections to the draft waiver that was circulated on Thursday.

Since the NSG works by consensus, even a single country can derail the chances of a waiver.

Meanwhile, the United States said that it has given positive momentum to the NSG meet and has improved India's chances.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby ashish raval » 06 Sep 2008 04:24

bhavin wrote:
ashish raval wrote:..........

Yeh right Baljeet. Austrians are wierd ones and one of them is listed here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fritzl_case

Ireland has a reason to get threatened from India's rise in IT which is their bread and butter and China knows they are not going to get any contract so why should they allow Americans to eat the cake. NZ is a racist nation so it is expected. Swiss are known for neutrality for ages now. Norway are in the league of wierds like Austria. Netherlands are pissed of by paki rats shouting in streets of Amsterdam (having bitter experience with paki - Khan) and think that Indian people will be the same (ignorant). Rest all are normal people and happy to see through the light and welcome new big boy in the club.


Ashish - This is a very simplistic generalization. The motives go much deeper than that. Ireland is not in India's league... Chinese opposition is not about money but more strategic than that. They want to hinder and slow the growth of India in any way, shape or form and hence their opposition. Swiss are hardly neutral - they are neutral only when it suits them or where they are in the danger of getting wiped out. Netherlands is hardly innocent in the AQK enterprise - more knowledgeable posters than myself have posted numerous references to complicity of these european powers in the AQK nukeMart.


As far as i know, India is a direct competitor to Irish monopoly in supplying the software, electronics, computer spares, pharmaceuticals, banking, finance and other exports to US. Sooner or later, India is poised to eat their share of US exports in this fields. I dont think China is naive in trying to hinder India's growth by stopping nuclear power to India. It is straight forward thing that if India do not get nuclear energy it will burn coal or buy gas which will hit the rest of the world more than India, remember nuclear power is one of the option but it is not the only option. Besides if they oppose blatently in the International forum the repurcussions are wide as India is a big trading partner of China exporting the raw materials and India can then clearly point to villian ruining the party which will make China look anti-west straight away. China is too shrewed to use its own gun in this scenario.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby John Snow » 06 Sep 2008 04:33

Kya Yaar, yeh SALA teen sal ka myatch (2005) won day match bangaya, our aupun ka baas unkil is ko ekdum 20 wovers ka myatch banadia? Indian team bi waiseech hai last hour thak defence khelte bhaita, Ek chavva ya chakka lagao (austria vustria, chini bini sab ka dam nikal jayega)

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby enqyoob » 06 Sep 2008 04:48

Allah*Akbar!

These Oiropeans can't make up their minds on anything. Figures. NOW I understand the Eyetalian Chief Executive selection process, where they just lock them up, no access to potty, until they stink up each other so much that they burn their bras and send the smoke signal to be let out.

It's already TOMORROW there! Saturday. Good thing the Israelis are not there or they would claim Sabbath and take off. I am surprised the French and Spanish haven't quit - I mean, they have worked nearly half a day! :eek:

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby sivab » 06 Sep 2008 05:03

Its almost 2am. Since it hasn't broken down still, seems they are close to consensus...

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby John Snow » 06 Sep 2008 05:11

somebody must have said sleep over it for a day

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby archan » 06 Sep 2008 05:13

sivab wrote:Its almost 2am. Since it hasn't broken down still, seems they are close to consensus...

Why do you say that? our Chini comlades must be sreepy and will not be able to wolk anymole.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby vsudhir » 06 Sep 2008 05:14

Battle of attrition {waged by P5} submerged in the bottle of attribution {chakka-pack} may someday lead to/ become ze throttle of retribution {Desi response after dust settles} onlee, moi fears..... :mrgreen:

Seriously, if someone out der sthinks they can outlast/wear-down desi babucracy has no idea of how far chai-biskoot really go in the desi set-up..... :twisted: What're the odds unkil doesn't know? More likely, there is a genuine battle of wills and wits going on in the delib-ration room onlee....

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby ajay_hk » 06 Sep 2008 05:22

Reuters UK says that the decision has been postponed.

Nuclear suppliers put off clearing US-India deal
VIENNA, Sept 6 (Reuters) - The 45-country Nuclear Suppliers Group postponed a decision on Saturday on whether to drop a ban on nuclear trade with India, diplomats in the meeting said.

They said amendments proposed by the United States to placate NSG members demanding an automatic cessation of trade if India tested another atom bomb failed to win them over and more time was needed for negotiations on a solution.

The two-day meeting was adjourned early on Saturday and was to resume later in the day, diplomats said.

The nuclear cartel's clearance is needed to finalise a U.S.-Indian civilian atomic energy deal, which also requires ratification by the U.S. Congress. With the NSG process stalled, time may run out for the deal to clear the last hurdles before the U.S. presidential election this autumn.


another link : UPDATE 1-Nuclear suppliers hold up US-India deal--diplomats
Last edited by ajay_hk on 06 Sep 2008 05:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby vishwakarmaa » 06 Sep 2008 05:23

talks over! New session tomorrow at 2:30pm in vienna.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Kakkaji » 06 Sep 2008 05:28

Whoever created a group where the rules require all 45 of them have to agree, pretty much ensured that nothing will ever get agreed upon.

What this shows is that all such multi-national bodies, including the UN General Assembly, are useless. They allow pipsqueak countries to punch far above their weight.

India should tone down its participation in all such multi-national groupings. They have never done India any good. Just pursue bilateral agreements with countries that matter.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby archan » 06 Sep 2008 05:34

Test match ends in a draw! now one more day night match to start at 2:30 PM to decide the series. Unkil just needs to dissolve this abomination called NSG. The hypocrisy amazes me no end. Given that this is a matter of international concern, and the member countries are negotiation with their domestic politics (Austrian govt.'s tie up with their green party), or personal grudges/competition (Chinese) with no regard whatsoever for the main issue that is clean energy and proliferation (India's record being impeccable). This is besharmi to the extreme! To top it off, an overwhelming majority is not enough! it has to be that every one of the 45 has to agree!

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby John Snow » 06 Sep 2008 05:40

proliferation is the only to join this club or break the club.

***
Mean while the Blues Reconsider baby by Elvis

Well so long
Oh how I hate to see you go
Yes so long
Oh how I hate to see you go
Well the way that I will miss you
Child, I guess you'll never know

We've been together so long
To have to separate this way
We've been together so long
To have to separate this way
Well I’m gonna let you go ahead on baby
Pray that you'll come back home some day

Play the blues boys, play the blues
One more time

You said you once had loved me
But now I guess you've changed your mind
You said you once had loved me
But now I guess you've changed your mind
Why don't you reconsider baby
Yourself just a little more time

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Gerard » 06 Sep 2008 05:44

NDTV
Next NSG meeting will be held on Saturday at 11 am, local time.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby achy » 06 Sep 2008 05:44

I think that the waiver is not going to come through. The exercise is in futility from now on. Austria and Ireland will not acquisce as they have nothing to loose. Neither from US nor India.

In the end, strangely, I am feeling relieved. This whole exercise compelled every player including china to force open their hand and India is better off because of that.

Also, if US and India and others were really serious about this deal than it means the begining of end of UN, NPT, NSG, WTO, etc. UN is anyways useless. For others, I give them 5-10 yrs.

India must not allow this "setback" to hurt herself in anger. Rather all politicians should take a quite resolve that next time world should beg India.

Sean
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Sean » 06 Sep 2008 06:00

Lets see if US, Russia, and France will work towards a supermajority rule(say 70%) in the event consensus is not reached. IMO, it will be impossible to bring about a rule change in time for India waiver under consideration.

Pulikeshi
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Pulikeshi » 06 Sep 2008 06:03

1. NSG will lose lose immediately if the waiver is "clean and conditional".
2. NSG will lose slowly if the waiver is "clean and somewhat conditional"
3. NSG will win if the waiver is "clean and strongly conditional"

India wants provisions that implicitly force path 2 for NSG.
6-pack want provisions that explicitly force path 3 for NSG.

Which means, 6-pack will demand verbiage that keeps NSG relevant.
Unless, there is political will in US to break this logjam - this is it!

John Snow
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby John Snow » 06 Sep 2008 06:07

so its

kya hua tera wada ...
woh kasam woh irada

Kya hua tera waada
Woh kasam, woh iraada)
Bhoolega dil jis din tumhe
Woh din zindagi ka aakhri din hoga
Kya hua tera waada
Woh kasam, woh iraada
:((

enqyoob
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby enqyoob » 06 Sep 2008 06:11

Green's Party must be all the Dylan fans who couldn't make it to JNU.

How many nukes must the Chinese sell
Before they sign the NPT?
Yes and how many centrifuges must Austria leak
Before they are asked not to speak?

Yes and how many dongs must the Pakis lose
Before you call them No Dongs?

The answer, my friend, is blowin' in da Vienna
The answer, is blowing in Vienna


How many beers must the Kiwis drink
Before they sign in black ink? [/quote]

I think many of the NSG will come in at 11AM Saturday with bumps on their heads because their mistresses/ gigolos must be mad at the cancellation of the fact-finding mission to the Alps and the breweries.

vsudhir
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby vsudhir » 06 Sep 2008 06:14

Alert BRfites in the chakka-pack countries can look out for sarkari propaganda on the local news highlighting how their clean-lean-mean-green gormand stared down at the dirty proliferationist giant (digging up 60s famine footage to showcase yindia) and managed to keep afloat world H&D....or something to that ef fu<k t. :evil:

Hmmph. Might as well dig into verse moiself...

Kya power thi..... kya drama tha.... kya zamaana thaaa......
Ek NSG thi........chakkapack diwaanaa thaa.....


And one more { Des to chakka-pack}

Tera mujhse hai pehle ka naata koi....
yoon hi nahi duniya dubaata koi.....

Suppiah
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Suppiah » 06 Sep 2008 06:25

Given the fact that Russia and France are going to get at least a third of the future deals, if not more, why is only GWB calling world leaders to push deal? What is Putin doing? How 'bout Sarkozy? I can understand that Putin's influence does not extend beyond Nicaragua and Belarus (and Sarkozy's beyond African regimes to who France is sugar-daddy) but at least they can issue a statement to keep us impressed?

Unless all this elaborate drama is a pre-ordained thing to make it sound like India is getting something special in exchange for giving up a lot, I think we yindoos better prepare to start blaming fate, saying it all happens for the good, etc. It makes not much difference.

Our coal/gas based power generation industry has been open to all for years, but we dont have foreigners stampeding each other to invest because the transmission and distribution systems and frameworks suck, no one wants to pay for electricity, SEBs are den of corruption and incompetence and no one wants to be another Enron. I don't see that changing simply because means of generating heat that generates the steam is different.

samuel
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby samuel » 06 Sep 2008 06:25

It ain't over till it's over.

V_Raman
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby V_Raman » 06 Sep 2008 06:29

it was suggested many years back on BR that this whole exercise could be to gauge the real indian nuclear capability. maybe it has been gauged and deal will die.

John Snow
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby John Snow » 06 Sep 2008 06:31

Number Fifty Four (actually 34 countries NSG)

Number fifty-four,
The house with the bamboo door,
Bamboo roof and bamboo walls,
They've even got a bamboo floor!

You must get to know Soho Joe, (unkil)
He runs an Expresso,
Called the House of Bamboo.

It's-a made of sticks.
Sticks and bricks,
But you can get your kicks
In the house of bamboo.
....

I'm-a telling you, when you're blue,
Well there's a lot to do
In the House Of Bamboo.
( that is just kick the bamboo walls and it will fall)

a_kumar
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby a_kumar » 06 Sep 2008 06:33

Must have been done yesterday, but we have another chance.. Flush the media with horror stories of Chinese prolifiration to Pak and NK. Put them on the backfoot...

Do it now..... before tomorrow's session!!

John Snow
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby John Snow » 06 Sep 2008 06:35

vramanx wrote:it was suggested many years back on BR that this whole exercise could be to gauge the real indian nuclear capability. maybe it has been gauged and deal will die.

I said that way in the begining the separation plan etcc was to know what gets done where and what is dependent on what.
Even if they inkling of what was happening in desh, they wanted to validate or negate what they had known. We bared it all. I could be completely wrong as there was mole any way in GOI PMO.
Last edited by John Snow on 06 Sep 2008 06:39, edited 1 time in total.

John Snow
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby John Snow » 06 Sep 2008 06:38

a_kumar wrote:Must have been done yesterday, but we have another chance.. Flush the media with horror stories of Chinese prolifiration to Pak and NK. Put them on the backfoot...

Do it now..... before tomorrow's session!!


Those have been done by recent spate of books....

But the thing that needs to be done the direct and indirect role of Joe SIX pack contribution to PAKI CHinku Noko proliferation and the will full particpation of those chakka ( in Telugu chakka means Hijra also) countries

Sean
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Sean » 06 Sep 2008 06:38

Suppiah wrote:Our coal/gas based power generation industry has been open to all for years, but we dont have foreigners stampeding each other to invest because the transmission and distribution systems and frameworks suck, no one wants to pay for electricity, SEBs are den of corruption and incompetence and no one wants to be another Enron. I don't see that changing simply because means of generating heat that generates the steam is different.

Good points.

IMO, India needs a framework where power can be sold by private players to SEB with GOI gurantees on payment. If a state SEB does not pay up, then the GOI could offset these non-payments against other sanctioned outlays for that state. States/SEB would be required to enter into a contract with GOI agreeing to the above condition before they can buy power from private players.


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