India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Kakkaji
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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Kakkaji » 06 Sep 2008 07:13

vramanx wrote:it was suggested many years back on BR that this whole exercise could be to gauge the real indian nuclear capability. maybe it has been gauged and deal will die.


The other side of the coin is that India has also learnt "kaun kitne paani mein hai" (who really stands where).

We know now who stands with you and who is against you. Who can deliver and whose promises are worthless.

It is a wake-up call for the "Vasudhaiv Kutumbakam" types among the Indian elite. I hope they learn and do not forget this lesson in international politics.

There is no need to act in anger or haste. Just slowly start building military/ strategic capability and start quietly undermining the useless multilateral institutions.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby sivab » 06 Sep 2008 07:15

http://svaradarajan.blogspot.com/2008/0 ... -2-am.html

Dateline Vienna: NSG update @ 2 a.m.

After a marathon day -- starting at 10 a.m. on Friday and finally peeling off at two in the morning on Saturday -- the Nuclear Suppliers Group plenary was still working through the objections of a handful of member states to the American proposal for an exception to be made for India from the cartel's export guidelines.

The meeting will resume at 11 a.m. on Saturday, local time, amidst signs that the United States is really keen to get the job done.

Till quite late in the night, delegates sauntered in and out to smoke or buy dinner, but generally refused to be drawn in to discussions with the pack of hacks outside. I asked one hapless dip at 11 pm what on earth was going on inside the meeting. He said, "Actually, we don't really know. It's the big players who are talking". By players, did he mean countries? No, he said. "I mean Presidents and Ministers. There are phone calls being made to try and get every country on board".

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby enqyoob » 06 Sep 2008 07:20

The purpose of all this is to push India as absolutely far as possible towards what ramana calls "CRE".

I think India's team should be called back, to get on the morning flight. Let the NSG deliberate as long as they want..

Then MMS should announce a ban on coal exports, and a massive program to develop coal power plants, and thank Austria and New Zealand for helping India decide on the future course of nuclear energy.

Next, announce that all nuclear reactors in India are being moved to the strategic sector, in accordance with the previously announced Separation Plan. Say that any civilian reactors will be set up if and when bilateral deals are concluded with other NWS powers, but any "safeguards" will be what India wants for protecting Indian-owned fuel. While no tests are planned in the near future, let it be known that weapon production will have high priority, as will the fast breeder reactor program.

And test a long-range missile to hit the Pacific past NZ.

Cancel all contracts for turbomachinery with Austria and China. The Chinese stuff apparently is garbage per the ppl I've talked to, and their "customer support" is as crooked as the rest of their commie crooks.

Announce the World Conference on Tibetan Freedom in New Delhi, January 2009.

Announce the Indian Ocean Energy Cooperative, inviting Vietnam, Taiwan, Tajikistan, and South Korea to participate in discussions on nuclear technology collaboration.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby sivab » 06 Sep 2008 07:20

Strange comment at SV blog. Is that spooked panda or paki? The language looks more like NPA though.

Anonymous said...
As a Nuclear Weapons State, China has the smallest nuclear arsenal - roughly 200 warheads that constitute a minimum means of retaliation.

To date, China has had no need to significantly alter this posture or to increase their stockpile of weapons, comfortable in the knowledge that it is sufficient for deterrence.

Top India officials, on the other hand, have openly stated that their aspirations are to build four hundred or more nuclear warheads – a quantity far in excess of the needs to deter or decimate their rival Pakistan.

Getting an India only "exemption" from Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) and not signing the Non Proliferation Treaty (NPT) and the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT) will enable India to do just that.

Resumed Indian nuclear weapons testing will mean that they will perfect thermo-nuclear weapons with multi megaton yields --- effectively the ability to kill millions of people in an urban area with one single warhead.

Indian ICBMs can now reach most Chinese cities, and with more nuclear testing, India can build miniaturized thermo nuclear warheads that can basically reach any city in the world.

India tells their neighbors to take a leap of faith and trust India's intentions to be peaceful and pledge not to conduct more nuclear weapons tests indefinitely into the future.

Yet at the same time, India have spared no expense and left no stone unturned in pressing to be exempt from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Regime that every country except India, Pakistan and Israel abide by.

Prime Minister Singh and President Bush are now both personally calling the leaders of the six "holdout" countries to lobby them to pass the US-India nuclear deal in haste at the NSG.

This kind of lobbying is normally reserved for issues of great national significance and is inconsistent with India's claim that their intentions are entirely peaceful and benign.

If India has no intent to conduct nuclear weapons tests and a nuclear arms buildup, there is no reason why India and the US cannot postpone the deal and return to the NSG with a domestic Indian consensus in favor of a deal that facilitate peaceful exploitation of nuclear energy by India with appropriate international safeguards.

The political leadership of Austria, Ireland, New Zealand, Switzerland, Norway, and the Netherlands need support more than ever to block the US-India deal.

China has a vital interest in limiting a new nuclear arms race in South Asia. It is time for the Chinese political leadership to up the ante, and show that Chinese leaders care enough about the issue to counter Manmohan Singh and G. W. Bush's pressure on six small, defenseless countries.

President Hu Jintao, Premier Wen Jia Bao, and Vice Premier Xi Jinping need to pick up the phone, encourage the leadership of Austria, Ireland, New Zealand, Switzerland, Norway, and the Netherlands to hold their ground, and reassure them that China stands ready to step in and mitigate whatever damage India and the US might threaten them with.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby enqyoob » 06 Sep 2008 07:23

Sounds like the BJP. "400 nukes, thermonuke tests... " where have I heard the demands for these before, I wonder??? :roll:

As for the Chinese number "200", that is garbage. They have a few thousand tactical nukes lined up.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby SSridhar » 06 Sep 2008 07:45

It is time for India to indulge in realpolitik. Just show contempt for NSG and tell US that India was no longer interested. Put pressure on the US. Make it the onus of the US to get the waiver as originally agreed. There is no hurry. Let it take another six months, who cares ? Or, let the rest of the powerful NSG countries expel the dissenters for spoiling the show and get on with the act with the rest. The progress of one sixth of the huamnity cannot be held to ransom by a mere 45 million (total population of the six pack countries). In either case, the GoI must take no further part in the negotiations leaving it to the US to get it.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby sivab » 06 Sep 2008 07:51

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3f58452c-7bab ... 07658.html

There are also signs that the countries with concerns about the deal have been backed by China, following the publication of an opinion piece critical of the deal in the leading newspaper of the Chinese Communist party.


FT pointing finger at beloved? :shock:
Last edited by sivab on 06 Sep 2008 07:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby pradeepe » 06 Sep 2008 07:51

Not time to walk out yet. Let them kill it themselves. Walk out after everyone has dropped down. It wont be apparent now from all the gloating, but history needs to be written as how a bunch of pip-squeaks ably supported by the lizard had caused NSG's demise.

Kudos to our negotiators for holding out so long against basically the entire world. I am ashamed that even through this process much of the sniping has come from our own side. Even at this time. They are worse than mir jaffers. That generation was made of tougher maal. I dont think sleep or rooh-afza deprivation will make them waver.

NSG is dead! Long live the rats arse!

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby enqyoob » 06 Sep 2008 07:55

I am curious whether Dubya will follow through on his threat to walk out of the NSG, at this last stage of his presidency. I am pretty sure that Dubya has concluded that NPT is dead, so NSG needs to die, but actually do the walkout? There is no time left to convince COTUS to override NSG etc. so I can't see it being more than an empty gesture. What am I missing?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby sivab » 06 Sep 2008 07:56

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iVN ... idlWqUhT5Q

US-India deal hits resistance at nuclear supplier talks
34 minutes ago

VIENNA (AFP) — US efforts to lift a 34-year-old embargo on nuclear trade with India were adjourned early Saturday after no headway was achieved on nuclear testing, a diplomat said.

US President George W. Bush and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice both telephoned counterparts to put pressure on for a deal, diplomats said.

But after nearly 17 hours of negotiations, the Nuclear Suppliers Group meeting broke up with New Zealand, Austria and Ireland holding out against the deal, a diplomat said.

The talks had been meant to last only two days, but secretive 45-member group, which controls the international nuclear trade, said it would hold a third day of talks from 11:00am (0900 GMT) on Saturday.

NSG rules ban nuclear trading with India because it refuses to sign the Non-Proliferation Treaty, developed atomic bombs in secret and conducted its first nuclear test in 1974.

The United States wants a special waiver from NSG rules for India, so it can share civilian nuclear technology with India.

The United States argues the deal would bring India into the NPT fold and help combat global warming by allowing India to develop low-polluting nuclear energy.

Critics say the deal undermines international non-proliferation efforts and accuse the nuclear powers of pursuing commercial and political gains.

The main sticking point is possible nuclear testing by India, since New Delhi has not signed the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty.

India has said it "remains committed to a voluntary, unilateral moratorium on nuclear testing."

But New Zealand, Ireland and Austria form a hard core of sceptics demanding a stronger commitment, a diplomat said.

"So far, the draft text (of the agreement) is weak, with no real condition or consequence should India test," the diplomat told AFP, speaking on condition of anonymity.

Initially, the Netherlands, Norway and Switzerland had also expressed reservations.

But following intense US pressure, these three have all supported the deal, while Austria, Ireland and New Zealand want further amendments.

Talks were being conducted at presidential and ministerial level, one diplomat said. Another said President Bush and Secretary of State Rice had both been on the phone to the countries concerned, so much so that there was talk of the countries feeling "bullied".
:rotfl:

Speaking to reporters after the adjournment, acting US Undersecretary for Arms Control and International Security, John Rood, said he was "pleased with the significant progress that we've made throughout the day."

He said an Indian statement underlining its commitment to non-proliferation had "made a substantial impact on the governments of the Nuclear Suppliers Group and that sincerely facilitated the progress that we achieved today."

Rood said he felt "confident" an accord could be reached at the second meeting in two weeks to try to agree a change to its rules, which requires unanimous approval.

India issued a statement insisting it had "a long-standing and steadfast commitment to universal, non-discriminatory and total elimination of nuclear weapons."

"We remain committed to a voluntary, unilateral moratorium on nuclear testing. We do not subscribe to any arms race, including a nuclear arms race," the government statement said.

India had "an impeccable non-proliferation record," the statement said.

It "will not be the source of proliferation of sensitive technologies, including enrichment and reprocessing transfers. We stand for the strengthening of the non-proliferation regime," it added.

The International Atomic Energy Agency approved an India-specific safeguards agreement in August. The NSG represents the next obstacle before the deal can be finally approved by the US Congress.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby CRamS » 06 Sep 2008 07:59

Nothing f%^&ing gets my goat than these pipsqueaks harping on a so called "arms race" between India and TSP. It is this goddam moral equivalence between Bharat mata and a terrorist enterprise (with no due respect to India's achievements and behavior) that convinces me beyond a shadow of doubt that the dissenters in NSG and NPAs and those in the west who make this argument are a bunch of racists in mufti. The better way to avoid a so called 'arms race' would be to render TSP nuke nude; but the goal is 'South Asia' nuke nude for these MOFOs.
Last edited by CRamS on 06 Sep 2008 08:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby CRamS » 06 Sep 2008 08:10

R-man, what are your sources telling you.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Prem » 06 Sep 2008 08:14

Since we are already in Vienna there is no urgency to walk out. Lets find out how long the Might Mouses roar .My onlee wish is our diplomats should tell them the story about the mouse who tried to rape ...yes .. rape the elephant.


Elephant farted and might mouse' body was splattered all over wall.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Kakkaji » 06 Sep 2008 08:15

narayanan wrote:I am curious whether Dubya will follow through on his threat to walk out of the NSG, at this last stage of his presidency. I am pretty sure that Dubya has concluded that NPT is dead, so NSG needs to die, but actually do the walkout? There is no time left to convince COTUS to override NSG etc. so I can't see it being more than an empty gesture. What am I missing?


Dubya is a lame duck at this point. All the pushing on this nuke deal is being done under the radar of public perception. Any precipitous moves such as walking out of the NSG, and it would become another issue in the US election. The US mass media has mostly reported on this deal as 'nukes for mangoes'. Given that there is no large India-loving public constituency (the average Joe or Jane hardly know or care about the differences between India, Iran, and NoKo), this issue of 'Dubya undermining more international institutions' will be a negative for Republicans. The McCain team will ask Dubya to not do it.

Perhaps this is the reason why the six pack are holding out in the face of US pressure. They know this US administration has no leverage left at this time.

Perhaps it is better to leave this deal in limbo at this time. Let the new Governments in the US and India pick it up again after they are formed next year.

Being forced into an agreement under severe deadline pressures has almost always resulted in a bad deal for me.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Sanatanan » 06 Sep 2008 08:18

I think this reader of The Hindu has got it right.


This refers to Atomic Energy Commission Chairman Anil Kakodkar’s statement: “Let us finish the cooking process, taste it ... If it is appetising, we will eat it.” I would like to point out that the U.S. is the birthplace of junk food which is very appetising but extremely unhealthy.

C.G. Senthilkumar,

Sunnyvale


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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby a_kumar » 06 Sep 2008 09:21

John Snow wrote:
a_kumar wrote:Must have been done yesterday, but we have another chance.. Flush the media with horror stories of Chinese prolifiration to Pak and NK. Put them on the backfoot...

Do it now..... before tomorrow's session!!


Those have been done by recent spate of books....

But the thing that needs to be done the direct and indirect role of Joe SIX pack contribution to PAKI CHinku Noko proliferation and the will full particpation of those chakka ( in Telugu chakka means Hijra also) countries


But that is barely a start, IMO. Come to think of it, what fraction of general population read books?

What we need need is to make "China" synonymous to "China, which allegedly passed on nuclear know-how directly to Pakistan and indirectly to North Korea". That equation in print and visual media will start to do justice to the Lizard's antics.

On a related note, India has to start getting leverage on countries near and far. Its unfortunate that holier-than-thou crowd gets to mess around and that there isn't much we can do about it.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Arun_S » 06 Sep 2008 09:37

When Singh forgets its 'Dharm' and refuse to roar "Ek macchar Bhe Hindustan Ko Hijjdaa Bana Deyta Hai".

Meree Jaan yeh hai injured Hindustan.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby nkumar » 06 Sep 2008 09:50

http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?news ... 9&pageid=0

India softens on technology transfer and periodic review of compliance

NEW DELHI/VIENNA: With the Indo-US nuclear deal at stake, diplomats from both nations were at work late into the night to come up with an exemption agreement that would satisfy both the Nuclear Suppliers Group and India.

After four rounds of discussions, Austria, which was among a couple of countries holding out, gave enough indications that “more work still” needs to be done. And external affairs minister Pranab Mukherjee, who earlier in the day made a well-received reiteration of India’s nonproliferation credentials, said late on Friday night in New Delhi that “efforts are continuing to evolve a consensus.”

India did not expected the kind of stiff opposition it has faced. Realising that even the reworked draft presented at this second meeting of the NSG would not sell, New Delhi agreed to soften its earlier rigid stand.

A Reuters report from Vienna said : “Rows over two other conditions had been resolved, citing US assurances the final draft would rule out transfers of fuel-enrichment technology that could be replicated for bomb-making, and provide for periodic reviews of Indian compliance with the waiver.’’

But India is holding out against spelling out what happens if it tests again. It does not want the mention of atomic tests in the NSG exemption. But the hold-out nations are adamant that the NSG must act together in case of future tests and put this down in black and white. Considering the sensitivities back home, India cannot agree to have this clause in the exemption document, because it will be seen virtually as saying there will be no more tests. That would be political hara-kiri for the Manmohan Singh government. New Delhi will have to kiss the deal goodbye if the NSG does not agree.

There is some speculation that if the NSG fails to reach a consensus the meeting may be extended or convened again later in the month. India is opposed to another session and wants a decision either way now.

New Zealand, Austria, Switzerland, Ireland, Norway and Finland, with strong domestic nonproliferation lobbies, had been insisting that the waiver should include a paragraph on the action to follow if India tests again. They want the NSG to act in unison in case India does so. Some of these nations have since softened their stand under US and Indian pressure.

Peter Launsky, an Austrian diplomat, speaking from Vienna has made it clear that it was important to get the document right: “I think the quality of the result is more important than the timing.’’ He said that for smaller nations it was important to have the security architecture right and the nonproliferation regime was part of the concern for national security. He also made the point that the countries opposed to granting an unconditional waiver were not opposed to India and its needs for power to sustain development.

It has been a see-saw battle through the day. Friday started off on a positive note with a ringing re- affirmation of India’s non-proliferation credentials by Pranab Mukherjee. The majority of the 45-member cartel which governs nuclear trade welcomed India’s statement. Most of the countries including the major nuclear powers — US, Britain, Russia and France — have been supportive from the beginning.

China, the only other nuclear weapon state, which had earlier been non-committal though giving all indications that it will not be the one to stop the waiver, seems to have shifted position since seeing the stiff resistance offered by the small group of six nations. Reports from Vienna suggest the Chinese are saying the NSG must not be rushed to take a decision right away.

Earlier Pranab Mukherjee had tried to send out a positive signal from New Delhi. ``We remain committed to a voluntary, unilateral moratorium on nuclear testing. We do not subscribe to any arms race, including a nuclear arms race. We have always tempered the exercise of our strategic autonomy with a sense of global responsibility. We affirm our policy of no-first-use of nuclear weapons.’’ Moreover he said India is committed to work with other countries for a fissile material cut off treaty which is “universal, nondiscriminatory and verifiable”.

This was welcomed by the NSG when it began its meeting on Friday morning. “We are pleased that there was a positive momentum in the discussions,” John Rood, US acting Under Secretary for Arms Control, told reporters before lunch break. He said members “praised and welcomed it”.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Singha » 06 Sep 2008 10:35

the US under-secy looked dog tired and comatose when talking to the media
last night. very much in need of 5 neat cold single-malts to revive himself.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 06 Sep 2008 11:22

I think, Bush need not walk out directly out of the NSG, but he can announce, a formation of a parallel NSG-10 composed of G-8 Countries and Nuclear Outreach countries like Australia and India for the time being, as a forum to discuss Nuclear Trade and Nuclear Non-Proliferation.

USA, UK, France, Germany, Italy, Canada, Japan, Russia, Australia and India .

This Grouping would work 'closely' :wink: with NSG and GNEP. Of course, one cannot hinder, that there may be some overlapping work with the other groups.

McCain would like this and even give his formal blessing to the Idea, on the basis that Republicans hate BIG GOVERNMENT and the Neo-Conservatives hate UN. This would also appeal to his notion of Democracies.... Of course, he may not like Russian participation, but then a country's name can go under is such a long list... :wink:

The Pipsqueak will cry FOUL, and the more :(( :(( takes place by these Govts and NPAs, the more their domestic constituencies, the gallery to which they were playing, will understand that their representatives have just pushed their countries over the cliff and they are going to lose their voice in matters of Non-Proliferation.

With time, the Group can require that any country wishing to do business with them, would, beside NSG, also need to sign a protocol with this group. At the second stage the beside NSG phrase can be thrown out.

India's (specially mine :mrgreen: ) vengeance would be sweet, when the likes of
- Ulrike Lunacek (Austrian Green, who is the cornerstone of everything India is having to endure. Yours truly was the one, who first pointed out, that this woman is dangerous)
- Ursulla Plassnik (Austria FM, beholden to the above)
- Helen Clark (Who will become the biggest Hate Figure in NZ for Kiwi Indians)
- Phil Goff (NZ Minister for Disarmament)

are thrown out by their own constituencies for destroying NSG with their un-constructive attitude or putting more pressure on NSG, than it could take. That is why, I am in favor of taking a vote from all NSG members, so that these countries know, that they were in the minority. (42-3)

The Lizard would pee in its pants, that it is being kept outside the Group, and just like India cannot hope to get into NPT, China would know that a framework is coming up, where it is also excluded.

So I would plea for the formation of a consultative group NSG-10, with the mission to only consult. :twisted:

Request Feedback from BRF Olympus! :)
Last edited by RajeshA on 06 Sep 2008 12:06, edited 7 times in total.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Philip » 06 Sep 2008 11:23

The "Full Manmohan".

Finally the "snakes are coming out of the hole".A famous quote from the most famous Chairman of them all! It has been quite obvious to the serious observer,that India has two great long term enemies.The first is a so-calld friend,the US,whose priority in S.Asia is to keep in permanent happiness,the military of its favourite "rent-boy" Pak,to the detriment of India.Sen.Obama's outburst at US mollycoddling of Pak is more of an election stunt than that of true enlightenment.He simply wants the Indian vote.The US establishment,the Pentagon,State Dept. and the CIA,will NEVER allow its relations with Pak to be lesser than any friendship with India.

The other is insidious China.The ways of the inscrutable Chinaman ever since '62, have for the better part of the intervening years still remained a mystery to the mandarins of our MEA and many of our leaders.ABV was fooled and insulted by it during the days of the Janata regime .Suddenly,this regime has woken up to the enormous Chinese buildup in Tibet and is now trying desperately to build up an infrastructure in the north-east,including helipads as a means of supporting our troops,who are in a postion of logistic inferiority in that region.Chinese statements on Arunachal Pradesh and its despicable crackdown in Tibet have removed the blinkers from many Indian eyes.

These two nuclear powers have earlier worked together in the aftermath of P-2,to try and bully India into capping and removing its nuclear arsenal,the US well knowing all along of Chinese perfidy in the design and testing of Pak's supposedly indigenous N-weapons.The Clinton administration in particular,was working hand in glove with the Chinese (as Clinton was even funded by the Chinese military),so that China could continue to arm Pak while India was to be kept at the same military level of its western neighbour.The revelations keep on coming,exposing the US's Nelsonian eye at Chinese nuclear and missile proliferation and military aid to Pak.India was after P-2 caught between a rock and a hard place,the US & China.Sanctions were applied and all manner of insidious dirty tricks used to scuttle India's defence programmes such as the LCA,etc.However,ABV's govt. held firm to its credit and weathered the storm,though we suffered critical delays in several of our defence projects.The west and the Chinese finally realised that India wouldn't give in to force and ever since then have tried a softer approach to seduce India into letting down its nuclear guard.The carrot of N-fuel and technology supplies has been a master stroke.Worried that Russia would continue to supply India with reactors and that the US's gameplan for NATO's expansion towards Russia would antagonise it,therefore having little influence over its nuclear export policies especially towards India,the N-deal was floated.We grabbed the bait and the tortuous path has ended up at the NSG's doorstep.Here,we are being bullied from all sides to make even further concessions that will bind us in perpetuity.The serpent called China has finally emerged out of the "hole",where it has been goading other smaller nations to play its game.It finally had to also emerge from it lair in Vienna and the hypocrisy and chicanery of these two nuclear powers has been exposed.This govt. does not have the masculine "plumbing" needed to strike off the serpent's head as the "Great Chairman" Mao would've done.Instead, it is still bowing and scraping,pleading and prostrating in colonial fashion,like a murderer jailed for life,to not just its erstwhile colonial masters,but to small piddly inferior nations!

We have been reduced to removing almost all our strategic nuclear defences of "clothing" as the price to pay to get out of a so-called "nuclear winter".Compromises galore have been made by us in the negotiations of the deal.One version,the 123 agreement is for our reading alone,while the fine print and hidden papers show that the Hyde act will be what the US will act upon if we dare so much as to even attempt to break nuclear "wind" ever again! The last acts of stripping India of its effective strategic deterrent is being done right now in Vienna.Pranab's pitiful pleading that we have must be let out of nuclear imprisonment because of our "good behaviour" has been simply shameful! It impresses the jailors,but they want our "circumcision" on future testing too.The country has been stripped right down to its nuclear underwear and the PM to his "g-string".That is all the self respect left to hide the country's shame and that of its leader.Are we going to see the "Full Manmohan" at Vienna?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby ramdas » 06 Sep 2008 11:45

The waiver from the NSG must be studied carefully. If it is not clean and unconditional, not walking away would be treason by the govt. There are rumours of India agreeing to allow periodic stock taking by the NSG of our behaviour. This could even lead to pressure to sign a fissile material cutoff. It is absolutely unacceptable. Imagine a scenario where our resisting FMCt will lead to cutoff of fuel supplies because of NSG saying that we are violating conditions in the waiver.

Any statement by the NSG in or out of the waiver that commits countries trading with India to withdraw in the event of a nuclear test indirectly amounts to a commitment on our part never to test again. Not withdrawing from the deal in case such a condition is directly or indirectly imposed is treason.

The holier than thou pipsqueaks by themselves could not stand so firm. Either China or the US by proxy is giving them the backup for this. Given the entrenched NPA establishment, this could have been established. Unfortunately, vested and hypocritical NPA interests have put us in a situation where we have to walk away or curtail our strategic program. The time to walk away has arrived.

Of course, we should build up our strengths silently and work with determination to undermine these "euro-liberal" multilateral institutions - all such institutions are obstacles to our attaining our rightful place in the world order. Over a period of time, we should crack down upon internal allies of such setups that attempt to circumscribe national sovereignity.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Vivek Sreenivasan » 06 Sep 2008 11:55

US is not our enemy. They are trying to get this waiver passed through the NSG and it is apparent that it is going to take some time. India may need to offer some concessions but these should not be 'serious' concessions. They should just be cosmetic. Hopefully this will reassure members of the NSG. China on the other hand IS INDIA's STRATEGIC rival. They are competing with us for resources such as oil, uranium, gas etc. They are our neighbour and are supporting our rival pakistan. WE need the US to act as a counterweight to China. A closer strategic patnership with the US along with EU countries can only benefit India imo.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Vivek Sreenivasan » 06 Sep 2008 11:58

Ramdas i would go easy on the treason word. It is reserved for the higehest of criminals. If MMS tomorrow gave China the go ahead to invade India or the plans of India's military then that would be treason. Having a few conditions imposed on the NSG is not treason. Please dont exaggerate.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Sanjay M » 06 Sep 2008 12:06

Vivek Sreenivasan wrote:US is not our enemy. They are trying to get this waiver passed through the NSG and it is apparent that it is going to take some time. India may need to offer some concessions but these should not be 'serious' concessions. They should just be cosmetic. Hopefully this will reassure members of the NSG. China on the other hand IS INDIA's STRATEGIC rival. They are competing with us for resources such as oil, uranium, gas etc. They are our neighbour and are supporting our rival pakistan. WE need the US to act as a counterweight to China. A closer strategic patnership with the US along with EU countries can only benefit India imo.



US is drawing out this process for far too long.

Who knows whether they aren't just trying to string us along while they work out their troubles in Afghanistan? Then once the Afghan crisis is over, they can turn their backs on us once again.

It's ridiculous for a country of our size and power to be strung along like a nothing. We need to flex our muscles to jolt everybody else out of the complacency they're in, so that they understand we're relevant and not to be trifled with.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby ramdas » 06 Sep 2008 12:07

Conditions that curtail our strategic program are not a small matter. Accepting such conditions after assuring the nation otherwise is treason. The jury is still out. If they get a clean and unconditional waiver or walk out, then good. Any conditions, and they still accept - treason

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 06 Sep 2008 12:09

Sanjay M wrote:
Vivek Sreenivasan wrote:US is not our enemy. They are trying to get this waiver passed through the NSG and it is apparent that it is going to take some time. India may need to offer some concessions but these should not be 'serious' concessions. They should just be cosmetic. Hopefully this will reassure members of the NSG. China on the other hand IS INDIA's STRATEGIC rival. They are competing with us for resources such as oil, uranium, gas etc. They are our neighbour and are supporting our rival pakistan. WE need the US to act as a counterweight to China. A closer strategic patnership with the US along with EU countries can only benefit India imo.



US is drawing out this process for far too long.

Who knows whether they aren't just trying to string us along while they work out their troubles in Afghanistan? Then once the Afghan crisis is over, they can turn their backs on us once again.

It's ridiculous for a country of our size and power to be strung along like a nothing. We need to flex our muscles to jolt everybody else out of the complacency they're in, so that they understand we're relevant and not to be trifled with.


You mean jolt like with jolting Earth with berry baawerphul Atam Bomb Testing - Pokhran III ???

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Sanjay M » 06 Sep 2008 12:13

Philip wrote:We have been reduced to removing almost all our strategic nuclear defences of "clothing" as the price to pay to get out of a so-called "nuclear winter".Compromises galore have been made by us in the negotiations of the deal.One version,the 123 agreement is for our reading alone,while the fine print and hidden papers show that the Hyde act will be what the US will act upon if we dare so much as to even attempt to break nuclear "wind" ever again! The last acts of stripping India of its effective strategic deterrent is being done right now in Vienna.Pranab's pitiful pleading that we have must be let out of nuclear imprisonment because of our "good behaviour" has been simply shameful! It impresses the jailors,but they want our "circumcision" on future testing too.The country has been stripped right down to its nuclear underwear and the PM to his "g-string".That is all the self respect left to hide the country's shame and that of its leader.Are we going to see the "Full Manmohan" at Vienna?


We need to proliferate. Proliferators get respect, according to the NPT's twisted logic. Nobody treats China like a lightweight. Why? Because their proliferation has given them muscle.

We need to take a serious look at proliferation as an option. Nice guys finish last. We can see that in how we're being treated right now. So no more Mr Nice Guy - no more finishing last. We've not signed any non-proliferation commitments, and thus we shouldn't be bound by any non-proliferation expectations. Here we are obeying the NPT when we haven't even signed it.
Here we are behaving like an NPT signatory when we aren't even recognized as part of this treaty. Why are we voluntarily behaving like an NPT signatory when we aren't even receiving any benefits from this treaty, and are instead shut out by it? We need to stop voluntarily handicapping ourselves, and instead see the benefits which have accrued to those who have proliferated. If you proliferate, you get respect -- so say the NPT upholders, through their actions rather than their words.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Sanjay M » 06 Sep 2008 12:20

RajeshA wrote:You mean jolt like with jolting Earth with berry baawerphul Atam Bomb Testing - Pokhran III ???


No, we need to proliferate nuclear technology, rather than testing for the sake of it.

We need to look at strategies and paths on how to pursue proliferation (I'd prefer to call it NUCLEAR EXPORT REVENUES.)

We can proliferate nuclear power projects to other countries, to generate export markets for ourselves. This would finance our own nuclear power R&D, as so much of our indigenous tech has advanced by competing in global markets.

We could seek to develop and export nuclear powered ships/vessels, which would help advance our own military capabilities, as well as our energy-independence.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby vera_k » 06 Sep 2008 12:30

Sanjay M wrote:No, we need to proliferate nuclear technology, rather than testing for the sake of it.


Right. The next country to break out should be an Indian agent so that India achieves parity with the P-5 with respect to proliferation without facing the direct consequences of a test. But we need reliable weapons that can be delivered to each of the P-5 before this happens. Which leads to the question about whether the weapons work and can be delivered to distances beyond Sri Lanka.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Sanjay M » 06 Sep 2008 12:38

vera_k wrote:
Sanjay M wrote:No, we need to proliferate nuclear technology, rather than testing for the sake of it.


Right. The next country to break out should be an Indian agent so that India achieves parity with the P-5 with respect to proliferation without facing the direct consequences of a test. But we need reliable weapons that can be delivered to each of the P-5 before this happens. Which leads to the question about whether the weapons work and can be delivered to distances beyond Sri Lanka.


Well, since Putin's replaced that weak-kneed Yeltsin who blocked cryogenic engine exports to us, maybe we can approach Moscow again for more advanced non-cryogenic rocket engine tech. This would accelerate our ability to build Surya.

It also gives Putin another means to thumb his nose at the West, especially right now when they're breathing down his neck so hard.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Philip » 06 Sep 2008 12:53

Yes.We need to export our homedesigned nuclear technology.Why shouldn't we?Why do we always have to kowtow to the "Nuclear Club"? Are they helping us as equals?NO.Even after an NSG vote without any "blackballs",we will still be given only the equivalent of "Associate Members" only.No voting rights or full membership.NO allowing us to bring in our "guests",we can use the Club facilities only for so many days in a month/year,no credit-bills to be paid immediately in cash,etc.,etc. and most importantly,at any time the "reciprocal membership can be terminated without us having any say in the matter,plus unlike any social club,we are expected to vomit out/return all the food and drink that we have consumed over the years!

Therefore,as many on BR for years now have advocated,we should export our own technology to "friendly" nations quietly.Screw the scumbags who want us to be nuclear slaves forever! Let us start a rival outfit with friendly nations who have not signed the NPT/CTBT or who want to get out of those restrtcitive regimes.Discretion is the better part of valour.However for that we need a strong government that has the requisite gentleman's "accoutrements" to do so! I'm sure Vietnam and other erstwhile "Non-Aligned " states would be most interested in our nuclear and missile wares.Comrade Castro for example does not have any understanding with the US/Russia (CUban crisis terms) not to acquire Indian made ballistic missiles armed with Indian nuclear warheads too (if needed) !

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby vera_k » 06 Sep 2008 12:55

Sanjay M wrote:Well, since Putin's replaced that weak-kneed Yeltsin who blocked cryogenic engine exports to us, maybe we can approach Moscow again for more advanced non-cryogenic rocket engine tech. This would accelerate our ability to build Surya.


Going by currently demonstrated capability, the technology itself is not the issue. It appears the issue is more of having to wait until the political leadership literally dies out and undergoes a generational change.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 06 Sep 2008 13:23

What People are saying: The Proliferators get all luck and India, the Great Non-Proliferator is stuck in the marshes, so India should proliferate.

One can also say: The Big Bomb Tester get all the luck and India, the Small-Bomb-Tester gets all the Dandas, so India should test.

I am for the second variant.

No Proliferation.
Lots of Export.
Lots of Testing. We should go on a testing spree. Test with me, Test the megatons, Test the thermo-nuclears, Test the suitcase-types, Test with ME, Test WITH me, TEST with me, TEST, TEST, TEST. (McCain Song)

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby SSridhar » 06 Sep 2008 13:35

The word 'proliferate' has somewhat acquired negative connotation. India can export nuclear technology, products and services. Since we have not signed NPT anyway, nothing is binding on us. We have stuck to de facto NPT provisions so far but we can now move to a de jure position. Of course, this we will do after we know the fate of the NSG waiver.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby nkumar » 06 Sep 2008 14:02

Revised Draft on Indo-US Nuclear Deal to be circulated to NSG Members
MIL/Agencies, Sep 6, 2008. IR Summary


Vienna: September 6, 2008 – IR Summary/Agencies – The environment at Vienna is hot, Austria, Ireland and New Zealand, among the 45-member Group have prevented a consensus in favor of India. The US and India are seriously changing the wordings to suit the objecting countries. As per sources in anonymity, both America and India have arrived at consensus on the language of the Revise Draft in principle which shall be placed before the NSG Meet.

Indian and the US officials on the night of Friday agreed on the wordings in a 'changed draft' prepared by the US to find a consensus in the 45-member Nuclear Suppliers' Group (NSG) for a clean chit, which is being obstructed on some minor clarifications.

Most of the members of the NSG were, however, kept out of the negotiations as senior officials of the two countries entered into serious consultations to agree to the language and wordings in the Revised Draft.

The negotiations between India and the US went on for a long time taking several hours to reach the unanimity on the language of the agreement before getting it approved from the NSG members.

Both countries have now come to an agreement on the changed language of the Revised Draft, which is likely to satisfy particularly the three countries who want clear commitment before they give their consent.

Indications suggest that if negotiations prolong between the two sides, copies of the revised draft will be circulated among the NSG members since both the members have agreed on the changed wordings, as per sources in anonymity.

There is also a possibility of the NSG members meeting informally on Sep 8 and later for yet another special session towards the third week of the month, to approve the draft and formally announcing its consensus decision on a India-specific waiver.


link

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby Sanjay M » 06 Sep 2008 14:02

RajeshA wrote:What People are saying: The Proliferators get all luck and India, the Great Non-Proliferator is stuck in the marshes, so India should proliferate.

One can also say: The Big Bomb Tester get all the luck and India, the Small-Bomb-Tester gets all the Dandas, so India should test.

I am for the second variant.

No Proliferation.
Lots of Export.
Lots of Testing. We should go on a testing spree. Test with me, Test the megatons, Test the thermo-nuclears, Test the suitcase-types, Test with ME, Test WITH me, TEST with me, TEST, TEST, TEST. (McCain Song)


No, there's no need for testing unless we get a benefit out of it.
Testing should not be for political showmanship. Testing should be to advance the generation of our weapons.
Once our economy is more well-formed, then we can proceed to more tests.

But in the meantime, proliferation is a better solution. And again, I'm not talking about proliferation for its own sake. I'm talking about proliferation that will earn us revenue, stimulate our own R&D advancement, and enable us to make NPT so leaky as to be non-viable.

If Pak could do it with their AQ Khan network, then why are we so meek compared to them?

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby munna » 06 Sep 2008 14:04

PM , FM and NSA are having a meeting to discuss the 'new' developments at NSG meet. India is also considering cancelling the visits of New Zealand's governor general and the Chinese foreign minister, is this the start of operation "cut your losses and run away"? On the part of India.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby vera_k » 06 Sep 2008 14:06

RajeshA wrote:What People are saying: The Proliferators get all luck and India, the Great Non-Proliferator is stuck in the marshes, so India should proliferate.

One can also say: The Big Bomb Tester get all the luck and India, the Small-Bomb-Tester gets all the Dandas, so India should test.

I am for the second variant.


I think we shouldn't lose sight of the goal that prompted the current turn of events, which is to enable economic and therefore social progress. That goal is best served by not testing directly, but working to create conditions down the road where civil nuclear cooperation can be obtained on more reasonable terms.

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Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 1 sep 2008

Postby RajeshA » 06 Sep 2008 14:20

SSridhar wrote:The word 'proliferate' has somewhat acquired negative connotation. India can export nuclear technology, products and services. Since we have not signed NPT anyway, nothing is binding on us. We have stuck to de facto NPT provisions so far but we can now move to a de jure position. Of course, this we will do after we know the fate of the NSG waiver.


Perhaps one should include it somewhere, that India would be willing to throw in ENR products as well, "to make our offering more competitive".

And where do we start. Ah so many friendly countries... Taiwan, Vietnam, Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia, Laos, Combodia, Mongolia, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Myanmar, Algeria, Egypt, Libya, Morocco, Syria, Turkey, Nigeria, Ghana, Kenya, Tanzania, Senegal, Venezuela, Columbia, Peru, Ecuador, Nicaragua, Guyana, Laos, Sri Lanka, Iran, Kuwait, UAE... How about Northern-Alliancestan?

Man every country in the world ought to have a PHWR in their front yard and their backyard.


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