Small Arms Thread

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
MukulMohanty
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 65
Joined: 07 Jul 2008 16:00

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby MukulMohanty » 23 Jul 2008 15:44

Quick question for you guys. What is the version of Karl Gustav SMAW that we use? M3 or M2. Further, does anyone know what new SMAW are we now going for? We use Milan-3 for Anti Tank purposes but seems that a limited number of Spikes have been purchased and the Anti-personnel Spikes have been photographed in J&K.

Any thoughts?

Igorr
BRFite
Posts: 598
Joined: 01 Feb 2005 18:13
Contact:

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Igorr » 23 Jul 2008 23:44

ParGha wrote:What is the authorized-issue sidearm of the Russian Air Force? For pilots?
After WW2 it allways was Makarov. But starting from Chechen-2 Campany the part of helo pilots started using SMGs Kashtan with Makarov's 9x18 mm rounds:
Image
ssmitra wrote:Hi Igorr,

what is the AK held by the punjab regt guys in the pictures with the US marines. I remember the exercise but am only now noticing the front of the barrell. Is is the 47 or 74. They don't seem to have the distinct 47 compensator which u can clearly see in the pictures after that.

According to its appearance it's the Eastern Germany's AKM 7.62 mm version christed MPI-KMS-72:
Image

Igorr
BRFite
Posts: 598
Joined: 01 Feb 2005 18:13
Contact:

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Igorr » 08 Aug 2008 00:03

A rare photo: Indian MARCOS spec-op group with AK-103s (or Bulgarian copies). Put attention on the standard Russian sub-barrel granade-launchers with ante-barrel loading:
Image

Shivani
BRFite
Posts: 207
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 13:00
Location: भारत
Contact:

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Shivani » 08 Aug 2008 02:06

Igorr wrote:with ante-barrel loading:
Image


What is an ante-barrel loading, and what purpose does it serve in combat? How does it compare to German H&K designs?

ArmenT
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 4239
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 05:57
Location: Loud, Proud, Ugly American

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 08 Aug 2008 10:42

I think Igorr's translation software mistranslated that one. I think he meant to say "under-barrel" instead of "ante-barrel"

khukri
BRFite
Posts: 169
Joined: 28 Oct 2002 12:31

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby khukri » 08 Aug 2008 13:25

ArmenT wrote:I think Igorr's translation software mistranslated that one. I think he meant to say "under-barrel" instead of "ante-barrel"

Nope - I think sub-barrel meant under barrel, ante barrel loading might mean from the rear as opposed to muzzle loading - is that correct Igorr?

Igorr
BRFite
Posts: 598
Joined: 01 Feb 2005 18:13
Contact:

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Igorr » 08 Aug 2008 23:10

khukri wrote:
ArmenT wrote:I think Igorr's translation software mistranslated that one. I think he meant to say "under-barrel" instead of "ante-barrel"

Nope - I think sub-barrel meant under barrel, ante barrel loading might mean from the rear as opposed to muzzle loading - is that correct Igorr?
I ment muzzle loading, sorry about inconveniente english. I grew with Latin terminology mostly. The standard Russian under barrel launcher has muzzle loading unlike American, and the Russian one is shorter.

ArmenT
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 4239
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 05:57
Location: Loud, Proud, Ugly American

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 09 Aug 2008 10:03

Shivani wrote: and what purpose does it serve in combat? How does it compare to German H&K designs?

Western grenade launchers generally pivot to one side to allow reloading (and they load from the breech) whereas Russian ones are loaded from the muzzle. Russian design doesn't require spent case extraction as the case is attached to the grenade.

Igorr
BRFite
Posts: 598
Joined: 01 Feb 2005 18:13
Contact:

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Igorr » 09 Aug 2008 21:32

An Ossetian local fighter with Kalashnikov light MG and Sako TRG-21/41 7.62x51 mm sniper rifle:

Image

rajkhalsa
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 40
Joined: 13 Apr 2005 09:55

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rajkhalsa » 13 Aug 2008 09:32

American soldiers with Indian Tavors during Ex Vajra Prahar at CIJWS:
Image
Image
Image

ssmitra
BRFite
Posts: 134
Joined: 24 Mar 2004 12:31
Location: Punjab
Contact:

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ssmitra » 14 Aug 2008 06:10

Igorr wrote:A rare photo: Indian MARCOS spec-op group with AK-103s (or Bulgarian copies). Put attention on the standard Russian sub-barrel granade-launchers with ante-barrel loading:
Image

Hey Igorr, any reason why this is not the east german MPi-AK(s)-74

the barell end looks very similar

Igorr
BRFite
Posts: 598
Joined: 01 Feb 2005 18:13
Contact:

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Igorr » 14 Aug 2008 10:43

ssmitra wrote:
Igorr wrote:A rare photo: Indian MARCOS spec-op group with AK-103s (or Bulgarian copies).

Hey Igorr, any reason why this is not the east german MPi-AK(s)-74 the barell end looks very similar

1) MPI-Ak-74N with such gas compensator has been manufactured in 5.45 mm caliber only. I would wonder if MARCOS need 5.45 mm caliber. More probably they need well manufactured 7.62x39 mm caliber AK because 7.62 mm barrel is better released from water, less hydrophoby.
2) The East German 5.45 mm MPI-AK-74N has a brown pivot while the Bulgarian and Russian (AK-103) 7.62 mm have a black.
3)Also the German variant already isnt manufactured. I dont think they took old stock weapons for MARCOS.
4) Theoretically it can be too 5.56 mm Bulgarian or Russian variant of AK (AK-101), but MARCOS would rather take INSAS if they need 5.56 mm.
ImageImage

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2645
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Victor » 20 Aug 2008 22:41

From WSJ front page:
Image
Captured Georgians covered by what seems to be a VSS 'Vintorez' silenced sniper rifle (although it fires a 9mm pistol round) that was/is used by Spetznaz in raids against Chechen hideouts. "Khel khatam" before anyone hears what is happening.

Ortmann
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 3
Joined: 20 Aug 2008 21:43

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Ortmann » 20 Aug 2008 23:09

That is a 9mm round, but no pistol round.
The cartridge is 9x39mm, firing an extremely heavy projectile at subsonic speed. It's optimized for silenced operation (subsonic=no sonic boom by the bullet). The Russians went further to the Vychlop rifle with subsonic 12.7mm round, though. The weights of cartridge and bullet are no problem if it's for sniping.

Does one of the Georgians wear a camouflage trouser?
It's not legal to blindfold & tie POWs, so this photo might become a problem for the Russians.

brar
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 18
Joined: 04 Mar 2008 02:26

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby brar » 21 Aug 2008 00:27

Yes Americans do it all the time to Iraqis

Victor
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2645
Joined: 24 Apr 2001 11:31

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Victor » 21 Aug 2008 00:37

Ortmann wrote: It's not legal to blindfold & tie POWs...


I suppose someone should have told the Russians it was OK to tie and blindfold prisoners as long as they were also pulled by the hair.
Image

Ortmann
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 3
Joined: 20 Aug 2008 21:43

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Ortmann » 21 Aug 2008 01:07

brar wrote:Yes Americans do it all the time to Iraqis


That's one of the reasons why they're not everybody's best friend.
I mentioned the camouflage trouser specifically because a uniform hints at combatant status - Iraqi civilians don't enjoy combatant status and can be handcuffed just like criminal suspects can be handcuffed by police. The Iraqi government gave that authority to the Americans afaik.

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5038
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Surya » 21 Aug 2008 01:34

every jihadi in J&K wears a camouflage outfit

Igorr
BRFite
Posts: 598
Joined: 01 Feb 2005 18:13
Contact:

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Igorr » 25 Aug 2008 22:55

Brand new 40 mm automatic grenade-launcher Balkan:
ImageImageImageImageImage

- Exellent addition for infantry on a tank, BMP or jeep:
Image

Shivani
BRFite
Posts: 207
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 13:00
Location: भारत
Contact:

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Shivani » 27 Aug 2008 12:11

Igorr wrote:Brand new 40 mm automatic grenade-launcher Balkan

Thank you. Since some websites are not loading and I cannot see the full size images, I have questions about this brand new design:

1. Is this made by Pribor? Do they have a website, I can't find anything on google.

2. Does this launcher use caseless design grenades?

3. Is the 40mm ammunition similar in outer size /physical dimensions to western 40x53mm ammunition?

I want to know how this compares to H&K GMG.
Image

Igorr
BRFite
Posts: 598
Joined: 01 Feb 2005 18:13
Contact:

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Igorr » 27 Aug 2008 21:53

Shivani wrote:
Igorr wrote:Brand new 40 mm automatic grenade-launcher Balkan

Thank you. Since some websites are not loading and I cannot see the full size images, I have questions about this brand new design:

1. Is this made by Pribor? Do they have a website, I can't find anything on google.

2. Does this launcher use caseless design grenades?

3. Is the 40mm ammunition similar in outer size /physical dimensions to western ammunition?

I want to know how this compares to H&K GMG.

1) Pribor has its site of corse but doesnt advertize its military branch there: http://www.fnpc-pribor.ru/
2)yes, they are caseless, so it answers on 3rd question - it cannot be changable with the American 40x53, but speaking roughly it's in avarage same power. I still dont know the weight of the device. However, Russian portative weapon usually slightly lighter than western analogs.

Igorr
BRFite
Posts: 598
Joined: 01 Feb 2005 18:13
Contact:

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Igorr » 29 Aug 2008 21:06

OK, some data about 40 mm Baklan launcher were cleared via MSVT-2008 arm show:
the range 2500, the letal radius of the grenade - 8 m.

Omar
BRFite
Posts: 142
Joined: 30 Aug 2005 07:03
Location: cavernous sinus

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Omar » 07 Sep 2008 04:51

AS A special-forces agent in the French Navy, Michel Malalo has clandestinely entered several African countries by sea to extract endangered French nationals. Almost all the enemy fighters he encountered carried the AK-47, a widely used assault rifle renowned for its rugged reliability. But the AK-47 has a serious drawback: glint, which gave Mr Malalo an advantage in firefights. Made with steel, the AK-47 reflects light. “It’s flashy—and from afar,” says Mr Malalo, who took advantage of glint giveaways when shooting at the enemy. Mr Malalo, who left the special forces uninjured six years ago, says the French assault rifle, the Famas, is superbly non-reflective even in bright light.

Developing new metal alloys to reduce rifle glint is just one facet of the effort to develop better camouflage, concealment and deception technologies that is under way at defence contractors, military research bodies and university laboratories. Most of this research is being conducted in America and Europe. Much is classified. The results are often remarkable.


Source: http://www.economist.com/science/tq/dis ... d=11999355

I wonder if similar research is being conducted in the responsible labs at the DRDO for the INSAS series.

Igorr
BRFite
Posts: 598
Joined: 01 Feb 2005 18:13
Contact:

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Igorr » 08 Sep 2008 15:13

Omar wrote:AK-47 has a serious drawback: glint, which gave Mr Malalo an advantage in firefights. Made with steel, the AK-47 reflects light. “It’s flashy—and from afar,”

Ha-ha, what M4 is made with, wood? The black cover is made for a camuflage against the glint. BTW, Georgian soldiers leaved all their M4 stocks and took only AK-74M when run:
ImageImage

Some information about why shorten-barrel M4 is insufficient for modern combat:
Janes IDR October 2002, "Small arms ammunition advances bit by bit" by Charles Q. Cutshaw on Pages 36-37 reports:

"There have been several reports from troops in Afghanistan regarding the lack of lethality of the SS109/M855 cartridge, particularly when it is fired from an M4 (US) or M8 (Canadian) carbine. This was also observed in Somalia. For the SS109/M855 to achieve lethality, it must be moving at a velocity of over 732m/s when it strikes its target. At this velocity and above, the bullet penetrates a short distance and then begins to yaw as its spinning slows and it tends to return to normal stable state, which is base forward. As the bullet yaws, it comes apart at the cannelure, scattering fragments and causing a relatively large wound channel. In practical terms, this translates to approximately 200m with a bullet fired from an M16 or similar rifle with a 558mm barrel at approximately 914m/s.

When fired from a carbine, however, the SS109/M855 bullet leaves the barrel with a velocity of only about 790m/s. Therefore by the time it has traveled downrange only 50m it has already dropped below the velocity threshold for enhanced wound ballistics. The net effect is that troops equipped with M4 or M8 carbines are using weapons that are only marginally more effective ballistically than a 0.22 Magnum at anything other an close-quarters battle distances."

Vick
BRFite
Posts: 753
Joined: 14 Oct 1999 11:31

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Vick » 10 Sep 2008 06:10

From DN
9/08/2008
New Delhi Seeks Bids On Carbines, Ammo

NEW DELHI — The Indian Army is seeking bids to supply 43,300 carbines, 43,318 night sights and more than 3 million rounds of ammunition worth an estimated $50 million. The tender has gone to more than a dozen companies around the world. Among the requirements: fire at least 600 rounds per minute, hit a human-sized target at 200 meters, and function unhindered in wet conditions and between minus 30 degrees Celsius to plus 55 degrees Celsius.

The purchase is part of the $1 billion Future Infantry Soldier as a System (F-INSAS) modernization plan. Launched in 2006 and patterned after systems like the U.S. Land Warrior suite, the effort seeks to give about 500,000 infantrymen weapons, radio and other gear to make them selfcontained fighting machines that can face new challenges of land warfare and low-intensity conflicts, a senior Indian Army official said.

The Army plans to buy billions of dollars in weaponry and equipment in the next 10 years to boost firepower, situational awareness and networking with headquarters, the Army official said. The Army uses domestically produced pistols, submachine guns and assault rifles, and imported AK-47s and clones, AK-7s, INSAS 5.56mmx45mm Assault Rifle, the Zittara Indian version of the Israeli Micro-Tavor, Tavor rifles purchased from Israel, and other rifles purchased from Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, East Germany, Poland, Russia and Romania. It also uses a variety of sniper rifles, machine guns and projectile launchers.

sum
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9917
Joined: 08 May 2007 17:04
Location: (IT-vity && DRDO) nagar

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby sum » 10 Sep 2008 11:30

The Army uses domestically produced pistols, submachine guns and assault rifles, and imported AK-47s and clones, AK-7s, INSAS 5.56mmx45mm Assault Rifle, the Zittara Indian version of the Israeli Micro-Tavor, Tavor rifles purchased from Israel, and other rifles purchased from Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, East Germany, Poland, Russia and Romania. It also uses a variety of sniper rifles, machine guns and projectile launchers.

Mind boggles at the various kinds of weaponary of possibly all countries of the world floating around with the IA!!!! :shock:

ArmenT
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 4239
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 05:57
Location: Loud, Proud, Ugly American

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 10 Sep 2008 12:50

Omar wrote:
But the AK-47 has a serious drawback: glint, which gave Mr Malalo an advantage in firefights. Made with steel, the AK-47 reflects light. “It’s flashy—and from afar,” says Mr Malalo, who took advantage of glint giveaways when shooting at the enemy. Mr Malalo, who left the special forces uninjured six years ago, says the French assault rifle, the Famas, is superbly non-reflective even in bright light.

So the solution is to anodize it so that it has a non-reflective finish. Quick and dirty solution would be to simply paint over the barrel :).

jamwal
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 5100
Joined: 19 Feb 2008 21:28
Location: Somewhere Else
Contact:

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby jamwal » 10 Sep 2008 15:08

Surya wrote:every jihadi in J&K wears a camouflage outfit

Not many do


I have a question. I've noticed many AK rifles with Indian security personnel that have their tip of barrel not straight but cut at some angle.
Any ideas?

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66608
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Singha » 10 Sep 2008 15:33

the chechen bandits were quite fond of mil gear.

shamil basayev : http://wiredblogs.typepad.com/sterling/ ... asayev.jpg

and here with his great jordanian buddy Khattab:
http://www.intelcenter.com/audio-video/ ... 02-200.jpg

a military dress means nothing these days.

ArmenT
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 4239
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 05:57
Location: Loud, Proud, Ugly American

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 10 Sep 2008 21:17

jamwal wrote:I have a question. I've noticed many AK rifles with Indian security personnel that have their tip of barrel not straight but cut at some angle.
Any ideas?

Yes that is the recoil compensator (a.k.a muzzle brake). All modern assault rifles have one, though the shape can differ. The original AK-47 didn't have it, but later versions (AK-56, AKM etc.) came with it and it can be retrofitted to original AKs pretty easily. The issue is that when you fire an AK, the barrel tends to rise upwards. This simple device vents some of the exhaust gases upwards thereby pushing the front of the barrel downwards. Thus the shooter finds it easier to keep the weapon aimed on target, especially when firing in semi auto or full auto modes. Some recoil compensators also serve a second purpose of reducing the muzzle flash.

neerajb
BRFite
Posts: 811
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 14:18
Location: Delhi, India.

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby neerajb » 11 Sep 2008 11:01

sum wrote:
The Army uses domestically produced pistols, submachine guns and assault rifles, and imported AK-47s and clones, AK-7s, INSAS 5.56mmx45mm Assault Rifle, the Zittara Indian version of the Israeli Micro-Tavor, Tavor rifles purchased from Israel, and other rifles purchased from Bulgaria, the Czech Republic, East Germany, Poland, Russia and Romania. It also uses a variety of sniper rifles, machine guns and projectile launchers.

Mind boggles at the various kinds of weaponary of possibly all countries of the world floating around with the IA!!!! :shock:


Apart from this, Special forces use FN, Beretta, HK etc etc weapons and god knows what else. Looks like 'KHICHADI' runs deep in Indian blood. Now they want to import 43K plus carbines for FINSAS but the same article says the intent is to equip 500K infantryman. I don't know what will happen to INSAS carbine. No wonder if you find FINSAS unit holding FN-2000, MP5, M4, XM8(cancelled), FN SCAR, INSAS carbine, Tavor/Zittara, FN P80 (our paki broters use this) all at the same time. Had not Amerricca so generous to our neighbours we could have seen M series also in the arsenel completeing our comprehensive collection of firearms.

Cheers....

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16769
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Rahul M » 11 Sep 2008 11:29

IA does have a few M4's lying around if I'm not mistaken.

ArmenT
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 4239
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 05:57
Location: Loud, Proud, Ugly American

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 11 Sep 2008 13:08

neerajbhandari wrote:Now they want to import 43K plus carbines for FINSAS but the same article says the intent is to equip 500K infantryman. I don't know what will happen to INSAS carbine.

Did they fix the INSAS carbine then? Last I heard, it was having some serious problems because the barrel was too short with respect to the cartridge. This made a lot of the combustion happen outside the barrel, thereby increasing the flash and making it hard to control the weapon.

Igorr
BRFite
Posts: 598
Joined: 01 Feb 2005 18:13
Contact:

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Igorr » 11 Sep 2008 16:32

ArmenT wrote:Last I heard, it was having some serious problems because the barrel was too short with respect to the cartridge. This made a lot of the combustion happen outside the barrel, thereby increasing the flash and making it hard to control the weapon.

Look strange. Israeli Galil and Polish Berill have the same cartrige with same barrel length without any problem. I rather could be worried about Indian-made 5.56 munition than about the weapon. M4 has much shorter barrel than INSAS apropo.

ASPuar
BRFite
Posts: 1539
Joined: 07 Feb 2001 12:31
Location: Republic of India

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ASPuar » 11 Sep 2008 23:28

Galil - 460mm Barrel, 5.56x45 NATO

INSAS Carbine (MINSAS)- 330mm Barrel, 5.56x30mm

ArmenT
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 4239
Joined: 10 Sep 2007 05:57
Location: Loud, Proud, Ugly American

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby ArmenT » 13 Sep 2008 09:01

Igorr wrote:
ArmenT wrote:Last I heard, it was having some serious problems because the barrel was too short with respect to the cartridge. This made a lot of the combustion happen outside the barrel, thereby increasing the flash and making it hard to control the weapon.

Look strange. Israeli Galil and Polish Berill have the same cartrige with same barrel length without any problem. I rather could be worried about Indian-made 5.56 munition than about the weapon. M4 has much shorter barrel than INSAS apropo.

Ah, I see from the OFB specs that the INSAS carbine fires a 5.56x30 instead of a 5.56x45 like the rifle and LMG versions. That's probably the OFB's solution to the problem. I'd read earlier somewhere that in the beginning, one of the Indian Army's requirements was that there had to be commonality in major parts between the rifle, LMG and carbine and that they all had to use the same ammunition (i.e. 5.56x45). This was where DRDO was having all their problems with the carbine, because that cartridge's power was too high for the short barrel and designing a suitable compensator was not possible if the other specs were to be met. Someone must have finally convinced the IA to accept a modification to the cartridge size for the carbine.

sarabpal.s
BRFite
Posts: 341
Joined: 13 Sep 2008 22:04

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby sarabpal.s » 21 Sep 2008 23:01

i had not heard any news regarding OFB AMR vidvansak anyone who can shed light on it i am bit anxious about it :roll:
i think it has good prospectus in IA as well as other services. :twisted:
BSF can used it on border area. any about induction i did not see IA men had it in our testing In J&K Ground :?:

rkhanna
BRFite
Posts: 1146
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 02:35

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby rkhanna » 21 Sep 2008 23:36

Point taken. Sorry
Last edited by rkhanna on 22 Sep 2008 00:25, edited 1 time in total.

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5038
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby Surya » 21 Sep 2008 23:52

Rkhanna

please do not post non open source info

Admins please delete it

sunilUpa
BRFite
Posts: 1795
Joined: 25 Sep 2006 04:16

Re: Small Arms Thread

Postby sunilUpa » 22 Sep 2008 07:36

Hungarian procurement is public knowledge.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: anupamd and 68 guests