Indian Military Aviation

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Raj Malhotra » 12 Sep 2008 22:45

I think the religion mandates Sikhs to carry kirpan but it is not allowed. So leave it to Armed forces to decide. Courts should not interfer.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 13 Sep 2008 01:19

I suggest that this discussion be taken elsewhere. by tomorrow I'll delete all extraneous posts and clean up this thread meaning that the shelf-life of your OT posts will be short. now decide if you guys still want to post on this topic ! :)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby pkudva » 13 Sep 2008 10:46

Rahul, i think we can still continue provided we stick to the issues related to the thread. We should not discuss on community related issues as these tend to be very controversial. So my opinion is to continue to this thread on the aviation subject only.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Sumeet » 13 Sep 2008 12:08

ssmitra wrote:
sanjaychoudhry wrote:

Ha ha ha ha :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

you are hilarious dude.

give the corporal some compromise. He can keep it under some regulation length etc..
Otherwise why not ask the Sikhs to cut of their hair and stop the whole tikka ceremony for the hindus


Yeah we can let them have qwalli night. Ok no more OT.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby putnanja » 14 Sep 2008 00:19

Intermediate Jet Trainer certification by 2010

Intermediate Jet Trainer certification by 2010
Ravi Sharma

HAL teams leaving for Russia to fast track Russian engine AL-55I

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AL-55I has a higher thrust rating than the French engine

HAL will receive the first of the fly-worthy AL-55I engines in October

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BANGALORE: Two teams from the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) are leaving for Russia in a bid to fast track the custom made Russian engine AL-55I (‘I’ for Indian) that will power the indigenous, but delayed Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT).

While a team will be tasked with the acceptance of three fly-worthy AL-55I engines, the other headed by HAL’s Chief test pilot (Fixed Wing) Baldev Singh will view first hand the flight operations of an AL-55I engine that is currently being flight tested on a MiG-AT.

A recent in-house review meeting of the project decided to adhere to the schedule of securing certification for the IJT by June 2010. Though the HAL have been buoyed because the AL-55I which is being developed by the NPO Saturn has at long last been brought on the “critical path,” the June 2010 schedule appears difficult. The Russian MiG-AT that has been fitted with the Al-55I has completed just six of the 30 sorties that are scheduled in the engine’s flight testing programme.

However, according to official sources from the HAL working on the IJT programme during the six sorties the engine has met some of its flight envelope, attained an altitude of 10 km., and successfully accomplished in flight relight (where the engine is cut off and restarted while in flight). But the officials do admit that certification is still some way off.

The AL-55I, which has a higher thrust rating than the French made Snecma Larzac 04H20 engine that is currently flying one of the two IJT prototypes, has been built in keeping with the Air Force’s air staff requirements and is a scaled-down version of the AL-31FP engine that flies the Su-30 MKI combat aircraft.

As per the latest schedule the HAL will receive the first of the fly-worthy AL-55I engines in October with the engine hopefully receiving Russian certification soon after. The HAL are also hoping that the first AL-55I powered IJT will take to the skies in November after certification. Thereafter a substantial number of sorties will have to be undertaken in India before the aircraft can be certified.

The HAL are also be strapped by the fact that only two IJT prototypes (PT) are available. Of them only PT1 is to be fitted with the Russian engine since PT2 (currently grounded for rectification) will continue to fly with the Larzac engine. Officials are hoping that they can adhere to the probable date of completion (PDC) of the first of the 12 limited series production (LSP) aircraft since this will allow more aircraft for flight testing. The PDC is December.

In June, albeit way behind schedule the HAL had received a prototype of the AL-55I and integrated it on the PT1. After successfully conducting ground and taxi trials the ‘yellow banded’ engine (not a fly worthy engine) was sent back to Russia for certification tests.

Meant to become the backbone of the Air Force’s stage II or combat pilot training the IJT was sanctioned by the government in 1999 with an initial budget of Rs. 180 crore. Making its first flight in March 2003 it is meant to replace the Air Force’s workhorse, the Hindustan Jet Trainer-16, or Kiran. Around 225 IJTs are to be eventually produced, serving the IAF, the Navy as well as the Air Force’s Surya Kiran aerobatic team.

As per the original schedule the first batch of IJTs was to have been delivered to the Air Force in 2005-06., now June 2010. Besides the 12 LSP aircraft HAL have received an order for 60 production aircraft.


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kakarat » 16 Sep 2008 14:53

Blue to green, IAF changes colours
The Indian Air Force (IAF) has taken a leaf out of the United States Air Force’s book and ‘changed colours’.

Some four years after the army aped the US and allowed its generals to wear stars on their collar tabs, it is now the turn of the IAF’s combat pilots to don the same flight overalls as their American counterparts.

The 75-year-old IAF has switched over from its traditional blue flying outfits to green suits for pilots and support crews. “It really does mark a departure in the sense that one tradition has evolved into another. Blue has been associated with the IAF since the 1960s (before that the flight overalls were light grey),” said a former air marshal.

The IAF, however, doesn’t mind shedding its time-honoured identity in favour of blending in with international trends. A senior air force officer said, “Green is typically used for field uniforms by many militaries. Fighter pilots and ground crew world over wear green overalls. We are keeping up with the trend.”

Incidentally, the IAF made its debut at the Red Flag exercises in the US this August when its top guns strapped in Su-30 MKI cockpits tested their warfighting skills against combat seasoned American, French and South Korean pilots — all of whom were sporting greens.

The transition to greens has already begun at some IAF squadrons and gradually all of them will switch over to the new dress code, the officer said.

The greens are not the only factor unifying the Indian and US air forces. The IAF had released a book titled “Into the Blue Yonder” last year to mark its platinum jubilee. Incidentally, the USAF official song is often informally referred to as “Into the Wild Blue Yonder”.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sum » 16 Sep 2008 18:53

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has taken a leaf out of the United States Air Force’s book and ‘changed colours’.

Some four years after the army aped the US and allowed its generals to wear stars on their collar tabs, it is now the turn of the IAF’s combat pilots to don the same flight overalls as their American counterparts.

Amazing...everytime BR has a heated and long discussion on something, that thing invariably hits the headlines..!!!! :eek: :-o

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kartik » 16 Sep 2008 20:49

Unless the material from which the jump-suits were being made are superior in some way, changing the colour of the jump-suit to olive green from blue just to "keep up with the trend" is silly. because the USAF and its allies have been wearing those olive green uniforms since the 1950s, so its really late in the day to wake up to what the trend is..

Next they'll probably start wearing the nomex gloves that the USAF pilots use in place of the dirty white ones they wear to "keep up with the trend"..

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby PaulJI » 16 Sep 2008 21:00

Has the IAF lost all pride? :(

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby HariC » 16 Sep 2008 21:37

PaulJI wrote:Has the IAF lost all pride? :(


..and you base that on??

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 16 Sep 2008 21:42

please read the above posts.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby HariC » 16 Sep 2008 22:00

Oh please..

In the 90s, the IAF changed its uniform from Khaki to Sky Blue / Light Blue - which was the same color worn by my bus conductors in my home town. I guess the IAF didnt have pride then that they aped our small town bus department.

IAF helicopter pilots have been wearing camo flight dress - so they must be aping the army - they have no pride!

But seriously - its one thing that the IAF has been using green overalls for some time. ref

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But we have to attribute it to the Red Flag exercise and american and western influence and say 'IAF does not have pride'.

the gist of it is, it is to the IAF to decide what works for them and us whinging that they dont have pride is useless.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 16 Sep 2008 22:10

well, no need to blow your top. :) Paul and some others were reacting to the quotes from "unnamed" senior officers and retired Air Marshals.
then there is the bit about the blue yonder.
the question remains if the reporter has been entirely honest with his sources and the reasons they provided.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby HariC » 16 Sep 2008 22:13

oh i was just whinging. 8)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sum » 17 Sep 2008 11:09

Link
India has deployed its top fighter jets in Kashmir, officials and a report said on Wednesday.

At least six Soviet-built Sukhoi-30MKI jets, capable of carrying nuclear weapons, have been deployed at Avantipura air force base near Srinagar.

The base is equipped with crash-prone MiG-21 jets, which India first imported from the Soviet Union in the 1960s.

"The Sukhois had been held deep down our strategic corridor in (the western Indian city of) Pune, and their deployment in Kashmir will address any perceived threat," an air force official said on condition he was not named.

"But this is a defensive stance," the officer said.

Air Marshal P K Barbora, commander of India's Western Air Command, was quoted in a newspaper as saying the deployment was "temporary."

India acquired 60 Sukhoi-30s in 2001. The twin-seater frontline jets can carry eight tonnes of armaments including nuclear bombs and cruise at a speed of 3,200 kilometres an hour.

The air force official said the Sukhois would patrol Indian borders extending up to China and fly across Kashmir's rugged Kargil peaks, where India and Pakistan fought a mini-war in 1999.

The Indian Air Force, the world's fourth largest, is also planning to deploy up to 40 Sukhoi jets in the northeast close to the border with China, the official added.

The Kashmir deployment comes amid strains in the India-Pakistan peace process, with New Delhi accusing Islamabad of renewed support for cross-border militancy and ceasefire violations along the Line of Control.

Very interesting times....Wonder what the IAF knows/sees that the Su-30 is in kashmir...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Mihir.D » 17 Sep 2008 11:33

sum wrote:Link
India has deployed its top fighter jets in Kashmir, officials and a report said on Wednesday.

At least six Soviet-built Sukhoi-30MKI jets, capable of carrying nuclear weapons, have been deployed at Avantipura air force base near Srinagar.

The base is equipped with crash-prone MiG-21 jets, which India first imported from the Soviet Union in the 1960s.

"The Sukhois had been held deep down our strategic corridor in (the western Indian city of) Pune, and their deployment in Kashmir will address any perceived threat," an air force official said on condition he was not named.

"But this is a defensive stance," the officer said.

Air Marshal P K Barbora, commander of India's Western Air Command, was quoted in a newspaper as saying the deployment was "temporary."

India acquired 60 Sukhoi-30s in 2001. The twin-seater frontline jets can carry eight tonnes of armaments including nuclear bombs and cruise at a speed of 3,200 kilometres an hour.

The air force official said the Sukhois would patrol Indian borders extending up to China and fly across Kashmir's rugged Kargil peaks, where India and Pakistan fought a mini-war in 1999.

The Indian Air Force, the world's fourth largest, is also planning to deploy up to 40 Sukhoi jets in the northeast close to the border with China, the official added.

The Kashmir deployment comes amid strains in the India-Pakistan peace process, with New Delhi accusing Islamabad of renewed support for cross-border militancy and ceasefire violations along the Line of Control.

Very interesting times....Wonder what the IAF knows/sees that the Su-30 is in kashmir...


They could be there on acclimatization mission. Or it could be related to the recent use of PAF F-16s against terrorists in NEFA.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby gauravjkale » 17 Sep 2008 12:11

i wonder why they still refer to rambha as Soviet built Su-30MKI :evil:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby andy B » 17 Sep 2008 12:17

gauravjkale wrote:i wonder why they still refer to rambha as Soviet built Su-30MKI :evil:


Not just that the idiot says that the top speed is 3200 km/hr whereas its the actual range.

Classis case of DDM wonder when are they gonna learn....then again bcoz the average Yindoo public is not interested these buggers just end up reporting whateva... :evil:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 17 Sep 2008 12:22

anand, it's AFP, so FDM.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Anshul » 17 Sep 2008 15:44

Hmm...The f-16s do have encounters with our interceptors.I remember a comment by a PAF officer who posts on pak def mentioning that during recent air incidents ,they had seen a remarkable improvement in "equipment and tactics" deployed by the IAF and that was a cause of concern.But still gung-ho about countering everything with MANPADS.... :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby PaulJI » 17 Sep 2008 16:20

HariC wrote:
PaulJI wrote:Has the IAF lost all pride? :(


..and you base that on??

"We are keeping up with the trend". And everything else in that article.
There is, of course, nothing wrong with changing the uniform. But in this case the reasons for the change, & the reasons for selecting the particular new uniform, seem to be entirely wrong. If the article has any truth at all, this uniform change seems to be a slavish copying of the USAF.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby HariC » 17 Sep 2008 18:42

PaulJI wrote:
HariC wrote:
PaulJI wrote:Has the IAF lost all pride? :(


..and you base that on??

"We are keeping up with the trend". And everything else in that article.
There is, of course, nothing wrong with changing the uniform. But in this case the reasons for the change, & the reasons for selecting the particular new uniform, seem to be entirely wrong. If the article has any truth at all, this uniform change seems to be a slavish copying of the USAF.


You are going by a DDM report and coming to all conclusions - which is wrong IMO.

plus if your enemy's air force uses green flying suits, you do not want your pilots ejecting in enemy territory wearing blue flying suits to make them easily spottable from ten miles away :mrgreen:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby skher » 18 Sep 2008 16:13

Amazing...everytime BR has a heated and long discussion on something, that thing invariably hits the headlines..!!!!

Sir,the magic is because of Google....DDM just follows the linkcounts and publishes.

plus if your enemy's air force uses green flying suits, you do not want your pilots ejecting in enemy territory wearing blue flying suits to make them easily spottable from ten miles away


saar, if green suits offer that advantage in porki sectors.....why then stop @ uniform color? do the full monty of copying decorations,insignia etc.etc. iirc WWII Luftwaffe had dedicated commando pilot units for these false flag ops in battle of Britain.

Also,keeping in mind this philosophy,we would still need those blue uniforms in ample nos.,considering the PLAAF also has the same color.IAF has more priority engagements in this sector.

AFAIK, IAF already was allotted green inter-services uniform which officers had to wear on two days of the week to display jointness with the army and Army Aviation(dunno where the IN stands here)....why wasn't this uniform chosen above the new one?

India is the world leader in fashion design and textile production.IAF has kept the trend of ignoring local industrial strength....but not for long.
Not for long.The LCA family's here.

Speaking of which,

Sirs,is it possible now to integrate the Astra missile with the LCA? Also can Astra be programmed to attack Radars?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Dmurphy » 18 Sep 2008 16:28

A question for gurus here. I know the IJTs and the AJTs can be armed with missiles and guns. But have they or will they ever used in war if situation demands?

Does one also consider them while gauging an air force's strength.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 18 Sep 2008 18:21

Astra vehicle can be a formidable ARM in due course. all it needs is the seeker. range to the ground
from a height of 25,000ft could be 100km maybe. this is one project thats a low hanging fruit once
the AAM mode gets sorted out.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 18 Sep 2008 18:23

dmurphy, yes to both.

skher, are you referring to home-on jam ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby skher » 19 Sep 2008 00:49


skher, are you referring to home-on jam ?


yes, ala ALARM/AGM-88 HARM.

Perhaps,Astra can address the range issue with a parachute like the ALARM.

Can the seeker problem be addressed partially via DRDO's new laser fuze addition?
Is an imaging infrared version in the docks also?

Passive radiation homing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_radar_homing

Many missiles employing this type of guidance have an extra trick up their sleeves; If the target does attempt to jam them using some kind of ECM, they can in effect turn into an anti-radiation missile and home in on the target's radiation passively. This makes such missiles practically immune to ECM, in addition to removing the second disadvantage. Since they already have the radar receiver on board, this should not be a difficult feature to add (at least, it requires extra processing logic but little extra hardware)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby PaulJI » 19 Sep 2008 03:26

HariC wrote:plus if your enemy's air force uses green flying suits, you do not want your pilots ejecting in enemy territory wearing blue flying suits to make them easily spottable from ten miles away :mrgreen:

Meanwhile, your enemy is copying your blue suits :D . . . That cuts both ways, & is, in any case, a trivial consideration.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby VinodTK » 21 Sep 2008 01:27


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby PaulJI » 21 Sep 2008 02:32

skher wrote:Perhaps,Astra can address the range issue with a parachute like the ALARM.

Doesn't increase the range. Increases loiter time.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 21 Sep 2008 02:42

does the IAF use the kirans in the weapons delivery role at all, even for practice ?
if yes, which munitions.
TIA.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Jagan » 21 Sep 2008 03:27

Rahul,

Kirans use armament for the adv trainign stage. using rocket pods , 25lb practice bombs and front machine guns . They are operated by AFS Hakimpet. The Mk II has two 7.62 mm MGs installed in the nose.

But the armament phase is usually for a short period and they would be deployed to an armament range for that work.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Nmistry » 23 Sep 2008 09:42

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/09/prasun-k-sengupta-navy-to-order-more.html

NAVY TO ORDER MORE MIG-29K FIGHTERS


Monday, September 22, 2008
Unfazed by the delayed delivery (from 2008 to 2012) of the aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya from Russia, the Indian Navy (IN) has decided to order a follow-on batch of 29 MiG-29Ks, all of which will be subjected to the same incremental block development plan as that for its initial 12 RAC MiG-built single-seat MiG-29Ks and four tandem-seat MiG-29KUB operational conversion trainers.
Last edited by Jagan on 23 Sep 2008 16:59, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Go easy on the large fonts, many of us view these from office. + Giving the link to the story and a preview should suffice. intention not to take traffic away from other sites.

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Indo-US air force transport exercise at Agra next year

Postby Venkarl » 23 Sep 2008 09:44

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=10311

The paranoid Indian inside me asks me "Why Agra? Why not something that is away from the capital city?"

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby sum » 23 Sep 2008 12:40

Cause Agra is home for bulk of our transport squadron?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Rahul M » 23 Sep 2008 15:51


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby clay » 23 Sep 2008 22:36


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Kartik » 23 Sep 2008 23:07

Nmistry wrote:http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/09/prasun-k-sengupta-navy-to-order-more.html

NAVY TO ORDER MORE MIG-29K FIGHTERS


Monday, September 22, 2008
Unfazed by the delayed delivery (from 2008 to 2012) of the aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya from Russia, the Indian Navy (IN) has decided to order a follow-on batch of 29 MiG-29Ks, all of which will be subjected to the same incremental block development plan as that for its initial 12 RAC MiG-built single-seat MiG-29Ks and four tandem-seat MiG-29KUB operational conversion trainers.


Ah ! Prasun hasn't changed much. He still copy-pastes pieces of articles written by others and passes it off as his own. There's a bunch of stuff he's written on previous weapons systems which also sounds fancy but is mostly hocus-pocus. This isn't the first time I've heard that we're looking at the TIDLS, but then again the last time I heard it was also from Sengupta..

actually the same text was used to describe the Gripen's TIDLS in an article by someone else. He lifted that part and changed the aircraft to the Su-30MKI..

anyway, here is the link to the discussion on Keypub forums where Pit exposed the truth about Mr Sengupta. note the exact same words being used to describe the Su-30MKI's on-board data-link as he does to describe the MiG-29K's future TIDLS. :D


Keypub thread link

However, the Su-30MKI's single biggest tactical advantage, particularly in the BVR fight, is the on-board tactical information data link system (TIDLS) that can connect up to four aircraft in a full two-way link. With a range of 500km and being highly resistant to jamming, the TIDLS' can display the position, bearing and speed of all four friendly Su-30MKIs in a formation on a tactical information system, including basic status information such as fuel availability and weapons state. When used in the ‘silent attack' mode, an adversary may be aware that he is being tracked by N-011M radar that is outside BVR-AAM range. He may not be aware that another, closer Su-30MKI is receiving that tracking data and is preparing for a BVR-AAM launch without using its own radar. The N-011M can also operate in an all-passive mode, as a sensitive receiver with high directional accuracy (due to its large antenna). In addition, two N-011Ms can exchange information by the TIDLS and locate hostile targets by triangulation. Usually, three plots (echoes) are needed to track a target in track-while-scan mode. The TIDLS also allows the N-011Ms to share plots — not just tracks — even if none of the Su-30MKIs in a formation gets enough plots on its own to track the target, they may do so collectively. Each radar plot includes pulse-Doppler velocity, which provides the individual aircraft with range-rate data. Using TIDLS, two Su-30MKIs can take simultaneous range-rate readings and thereby determine the target's track instantly, thereby minimising the need for radar transmission. In electronic warfare (EW) applications, one Su-30MKI can track and engage a target while the wingman simultaneously focuses jamming on the same target, using the N-011M. This makes it very difficult for the target to intercept or jam the N-011M that is tracking him. Another anti-jamming technique already validated by the IAF is for all four N-011M radars to illuminate the same target simultaneously at different frequencies.

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Re: Indo-US air force transport exercise at Agra next year

Postby Sontu » 23 Sep 2008 23:09

Venkarl wrote:http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10311

The paranoid Indian inside me asks me "Why Agra? Why not something that is away from the capital city?"


Good Question dear ...

The reasons are
1.The new Phalcon AWACS Sqdons. are going to be based in Agra only which is expected to arrive by 2009 March, so this exercise gives first time peeping and eval opertunity also to our friendly AF :wink:
2.India is going raise RFPs for Midium lift A/C and Heavy Lift Helos also very soon..so this excersise gives the first hand oppertunity to mix up with IAF personnel who in the future might be evaluating/field testing for those tenders. As IL-76 and MI-26 (IAF's hevy lift helos) are based in Agra :wink: .
3.First oppertunity also to demonstarte C-130 and Ch-47s to IAF personnel during the exercise :wink:.

Any body has any more reasons .... :wink:

Regards,

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby HariC » 24 Sep 2008 01:08

Sontu wrote:
Good Question dear ...

The reasons are ...
As IL-76 and MI-26 (IAF's hevy lift helos) are based in Agra :wink: .


Sez who? :wink: :wink: :wink:


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