Indian Missile Technology Discussion

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby babbupandey » 15 Sep 2008 01:58

I expected the missile to be test fired from an aircraft...

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Arya Sumantra » 15 Sep 2008 04:18

Note the exhaust trail of Astra in the pic shows a "bamboo" like structure with compression and rarefaction conveying that the rocket motor fires in 'bursts'. Probably it comes from some periodicity in the injection of fuel into motor or may be that's a characteristic of a solid fuel rocket motor.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby vivek_ahuja » 15 Sep 2008 04:28

Arya Sumantra wrote:Note the exhaust trail of Astra in the pic shows a "bamboo" like structure with compression and rarefaction conveying that the rocket motor fires in 'bursts'. Probably it comes from some periodicity in the injection of fuel into motor or may be that's a characteristic of a solid fuel rocket motor.


Nope.

That's what is called as an over-expanded exhaust flow. It happens when your nozzle exhaust pressure is less than that of the atmosphere around it. In essence, engines designed for high altitude when run at sea level will show this kind of behavior for the escaping gases. The Astra is designed for high altitude use. It has nothing to do with the fuel that burns uniformly and continuously inside the chamber.

-Vivek

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Arun_S » 15 Sep 2008 05:40

Correct.

Also note the exhaust as it leaves the nozzle is transparent. Indicates flame temp is above visible optical band.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Arun_S » 15 Sep 2008 06:00

geeth wrote:IMO, as mentioned in one of the reports, the different range mentioned is for different altitudes, and unlikely that it is for different versions. Being an Air-to-Air missile, the speed of the mother craft at the time of launch also plays a vital role in the speed & range of the missile. The speed being quoted now could be that when it is launched from ground.

As for the ramjet version, it should be fairly easy, since Akash is already developed, which is a Ramjet missile. Some refinement ofcourse would be required, if not required to design a new engine all over again.

Correct.
Different range for different mission profile. Just like BrahMos specs.

The Hindu news report is very interesting:
The missile, launched from a specially-built ground launcher hit two simulated targets within 40 seconds and met all the “mission objectives.” Both the targets were hit by the same vehicle. Soon after impacting the first target in 20 seconds, the missile was manoeuvred and hit the second target in 60 seconds.


IIRC Indian are one of the very few countries that are working on multiple kill per interceptor missile capability. Off and on, such capability has been reported for Akash, and now for Astra too. IIRC the only other country working on multiple kill head for SAM is Sweden.

I savor this explicit statement that the Astra flew to simulated target#1 and then to target#2.

Congratulations DRDO 8)

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby negi » 15 Sep 2008 06:35

^^ That is interesting ,to me it sounds more like , Astra first engaged an imaginary target '1' and then simulated a switch and lock on to a target '2' in closer proximity with higher 'pk' as compared to target '1' in event of failure to hit the target '1'.

The possibility of employing multiple kill vehicles by a small single staged missile with limited seeker coverage and add to that the need to engage highly maneuvering targets as compared to BM warheads makes this practically challenging to say the least.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby p_saggu » 15 Sep 2008 06:37

The missile, launched from a specially-built ground launcher hit two simulated targets within 40 seconds and met all the “mission objectives.” Both the targets were hit by the same vehicle. Soon after impacting the first target in 20 seconds, the missile was manoeuvred and hit the second target in 60 seconds.

Wouldn't those be electronically placed targets or way points?
How does a missile this small kill two different targets along the way without getting destroyed itself?
More likely they tested targets of two different profiles and speeds with one test. A two birds with one stone onlee. CAG will be delighted. :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby vivek_ahuja » 15 Sep 2008 06:50

Arun_S wrote:Also note the exhaust as it leaves the nozzle is transparent. Indicates flame temp is above visible optical band.


Typical high performance solid propellant fuels like DB/AP/AL etc have flame temperatures around 3800 K inside the combustion chambers. The exhaust gases in some cases then lead to blue-flame exhausts. With regard to the Astra, the temperature is higher, and in the image one can see the transition from transparent to blue to red as the temperatures decrease. That is some significant exotic fuel they are using or have added some components to make it smokeless. I understand that chlorine etc can help achieve this.

BTW, nice observation!

JMT

-Vivek

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby neerajb » 15 Sep 2008 08:52

Arun_S wrote:
The missile, launched from a specially-built ground launcher hit two simulated targets within 40 seconds and met all the “mission objectives.” Both the targets were hit by the same vehicle. Soon after impacting the first target in 20 seconds, the missile was manoeuvred and hit the second target in 60 seconds.


IIRC Indian are one of the very few countries that are working on multiple kill per interceptor missile capability. Off and on, such capability has been reported for Akash, and now for Astra too. IIRC the only other country working on multiple kill head for SAM is Sweden.

I savor this explicit statement that the Astra flew to simulated target#1 and then to target#2.

Congratulations DRDO 8)


The main objective of these flight tests were to test mid course guidance of missiles towards manoeuvring target Aircraft using secured data link.


I guess thie multiple intercepts is related to mid course updates and not with the ability to kill two targets with one missile.

Anyway excellent comments by Vivek and Arun.

Cheers....

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Mihir.D » 15 Sep 2008 12:12

I savor this explicit statement that the Astra flew to simulated target#1 and then to target#2.



Arun,

Can you add some more to the above statement for us laymen ? Does the warhead explode partially in this case or is it some other funda ?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Raj Malhotra » 15 Sep 2008 12:30

My guess is that first simulated target may have been intercepted at say 10km average speed 500m-sec, the missile then adopted lofted flight profile to intercept second target at 20km with average speed of 250m-sec, the missile was allowed to fly for another 3km when it was destroyed or hit the ground-sea.

off course, I agree that launched from aircraft, its speed would benefit by launch speed & altitude.

I think 100km version may just be refined version as all kinks are ironed out.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Kakarat » 15 Sep 2008 12:37

DRDO tests Astra BVR Air to Air Missile

The main objective of these flight tests were to test mid course guidance of missiles towards manoeuvring target Aircraft using secured data link. Simulated aircraft flight parameters were used for these flight tests. All missile systems comprising of launcher, propulsion, Airframe, mission computer, navigation system, autopilot , flight control system, data link and telemetry system have worked satisfactory and as per design. Astra BVR falls under Short medium range, i.e, 70 kms or under as per DRDO.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Nitesh » 15 Sep 2008 18:18

Express New Service 15 Sep 2008 11:52:00 AM ISTBALASORE: Astra, beyond visual range (BVR) air-to-air missile, was test-fired on the second consecutive day on Sunday.


With this test, India has added another feather in its cap by successfully conducting the pre-operational third phase test of Astra.

The missile was fired at about 11.47 a.m from a specially-made ground launcher at the integrated test range (ITR) at Chandipur-on-sea.

‘‘The test was conducted after an analysis of the data generated from yesterday’s flight trial in order to validate the major parameters,’’ said ITR Director S. P. Dash.

He added that the test was successful as all the mission objectives were met as programmed.

The single-stage, smoke-less and solid propelled missile is one of the smallest missiles developed by the DRDO as far as size and weight are concerned. After the post-mission analysis, a source informed that the missile covered about 15 km and hit two simulated targets as coordinated before dropping into the Bay of Bengal.

Astra Project Director S. Gollakota, however, said that the propulsion system, navigation control and airframe were once again proved as they were validated in earlier trials. Though the missile was initially planned to arm Jaguar, MiG-29 and light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas, DRDO has started concentrating on integrating ‘Astra’ with Indian Air Force’s frontline fighter aircraft like Sukhoi-30 MKIs and Mirage-2000.

‘‘In 2003 and 2007, the tests were conducted in two phases to study the ballistic performance and control of the missile at low altitude and shorter ranges. After a few more ground trials next year, it would be fitted to combat fighter Sukhoi-30 MKI and test-fired before it is made fully operational,’’ Gollakota added.

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... kuKw=&SEO=

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Philip » 15 Sep 2008 19:02

Does it indicate a capability to retrack and attack the target again if missed first time round?

PS:Any comparisons with China's (PL-12?)re-engineering of the Russian Adder,supposed to be better ,also with a 100km range.
Last edited by Philip on 15 Sep 2008 19:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Nitesh » 15 Sep 2008 19:04

Philip wrote:Does it indicate a capability to retrack and attack the target again if missed first time round?

Nope either it is multiple kill per interceptor (jingoistic comment?) or just proof of midcourse correction here simulated as two targets.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Singha » 15 Sep 2008 19:19

will this bamboo thing be there even at altitude > 20,000ft ?
at night it will be highly visible if there and easily spotted from tens of km away by IRST

the big midbody fins are seen in 530D & Mica also, but tail fins are different
http://www.the-launch-pad.com/18INSERT.JPG
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/mica.jpg

others like usa, israel, china and russia do not seem to use these
midbody stub wings

this is a old photo of a SD-10 prototype ground launched
http://www.defencetalk.com/pictures/dat ... k.com4.jpg

Notice it hsa the traditional puffy white smoke of a solid fuel rocket.

astra proto almost seems like a liquid fuel rocket going by its "sunflame ISI burner" exhaust
Last edited by Singha on 15 Sep 2008 19:26, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Rahul M » 15 Sep 2008 19:24

I know IRSTs have/will have very long ranges but given the short burn time I doubt an IRST can be within range to successfully detect its small exhaust.
btw, any missile will give out exhaust and the temp alone determines the radiation given out, why single out astra ? other missiles will also have hot exhaust gases. :?:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Singha » 15 Sep 2008 19:30

amraam has a fairly clean exhaust but not as a tfta as Astra
http://www.amiinter.com/images/AMRAAM-H ... ytheon.jpg

vlmica again fairly tfta
http://www.mbda-systems.com/mbda/site/d ... mica03.jpg

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Rahul M » 15 Sep 2008 19:31

but the visible spectrum doesn't matter to the IRST devices.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby neerajb » 15 Sep 2008 19:35

Singha wrote:others like usa, israel, china and russia do not seem to use these
midbody stub wings


Singha ji I beg to differ with you on this. Like french missiles, Adder also uses mid body strakes although not as long as in 530 or mica.

Image


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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Tanaji » 15 Sep 2008 19:39

Dumb question:

How do A-A missiles derive their lift? The wings dont seem big enough to generate the lift?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Rahul M » 15 Sep 2008 19:46

I'm not an aero expert, so don't shoot me if I'm wrong ! :P

AFAIK, higher speed flying objects require lesser wing surface area than slower ones, some kind of drag vs lift trade-off IIRC.
moreover AAMs usually fly as projectiles, much like a ballastic missile does, it burns up its fuel as quickly as possible to generate maximum speed as quickly as possible, thereafter the trajectory is often a lofted one if the target is at the same height as the launch a/c.
for targets at a lower height, it can of course trade it's altitude to gain speed and range.

the wings are mostly for steadying its course and for maneuvering at the end of the run while the lift generated is much less significant although that probably varies from missile to missile.
hope that helps.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Arun_S » 15 Sep 2008 21:17

Tanaji: The missile thrust is many times the mass of the fully loaded missile for fast acceleration to intercept speed, thus most SAMs dont have lifting surfaces, and just tail fin for course correction. Because the speed is so high a little trim by fin places the missile body at slight offset to actual velocity (i.e. a slight Angle of Attack), to let the main body generate the lift (body lift) this is more then enough to bear the weight of the missile. Pls note that this body lift is at supersonic speed thus different from classical body lift of aircrafts at sub-sonic speed.

I suspect the long mid body fins on some missile is because on those are long range missiles that spend considerable flight time in level flying, lift from body alone is sub-optimal, thus augmented by winged lifting surface, not to mention that for terminal engagement at limit of engagement range, very high lift for lateral acceleration is very desirable, and those mid body wings are an asset.

Mihir.D wrote:
I savor this explicit statement that the Astra flew to simulated target#1 and then to target#2.

Arun,
Can you add some more to the above statement for us laymen ? Does the warhead explode partially in this case or is it some other funda ?

Just as I said, I see this as progression to multi-kill capability. Though it is quite possible that this Astra test was a two in one test; to test system behavious for short range interception and given that it was simulated target, explosive payload was not used ; and since missile was still flying it continues on and switched missile profile for second long range interception mission. JMT.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Vivek K » 15 Sep 2008 22:26

So Arun, the Astra could have a mid-course correction or target change if required?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Arun_S » 15 Sep 2008 23:08

Vivek K wrote:So Arun, the Astra could have a mid-course correction or target change if required?

More specific details will I am sure emerge later, but like almost all BVR, I expect Astra to have a secure data link for at least half the range for target re-assignment.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Jay » 16 Sep 2008 03:12

Arun_S wrote:
geeth wrote:IMO, as mentioned in one of the reports, the different range mentioned is for different altitudes, and unlikely that it is for different versions. Being an Air-to-Air missile, the speed of the mother craft at the time of launch also plays a vital role in the speed & range of the missile. The speed being quoted now could be that when it is launched from ground.

As for the ramjet version, it should be fairly easy, since Akash is already developed, which is a Ramjet missile. Some refinement ofcourse would be required, if not required to design a new engine all over again.

Correct.
Different range for different mission profile. Just like BrahMos specs.

The Hindu news report is very interesting:
The missile, launched from a specially-built ground launcher hit two simulated targets within 40 seconds and met all the “mission objectives.” Both the targets were hit by the same vehicle. Soon after impacting the first target in 20 seconds, the missile was manoeuvred and hit the second target in 60 seconds.


IIRC Indian are one of the very few countries that are working on multiple kill per interceptor missile capability. Off and on, such capability has been reported for Akash, and now for Astra too. IIRC the only other country working on multiple kill head for SAM is Sweden.

I savor this explicit statement that the Astra flew to simulated target#1 and then to target#2.

Congratulations DRDO 8)



Arun ji, How's it possible to hit multiple targets with an AAM like Astra. I think by simulated targets they meant imaginary ones and might have used the missile to chase the imaginary targets and make a simulated kill. My doubts are from the construction of the missile itself which I think does not have dual warheads or such. Please correct me....

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby srai » 16 Sep 2008 05:01

ranganathan wrote:I wish for once the DRDO would come out with the max speed and range spec. A mach 1-2 missile would never get accepted by IAF. Heck heavier Akash has a speed of mach 2.5-3.5.


sum wrote:
Describing 'Astra' as futuristic missile, DRDO scientists said the weapon could intercept the target at supersonic speeds (mach 1.2 to 1.4).

Guess ,it is 1.2 Mach then....Does seem a bit less when up against contemporary fighters..


I think the difference is in the wording. It says that it can intercept targets flying at supersonic speeds of Mach 1.2 - 1.4. So this means that the Astra missile itself would have to be flying much faster than that target speeds ;)

In simpler terms, if Astra is launched tail-on (stated as ~30km range) against an aircraft flying at Mach 1.2, it will never catch up to the target if its speed is only Mach 1.2. So this means, the Astra missile itself would have to be flying at much higher speeds to close the distance to a target flying away (from the launching aircraft) at Mach 1.2.

Hope that clears it.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Anurag » 16 Sep 2008 05:37

Astra's speed is Mach 4+

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby neerajb » 16 Sep 2008 07:52

Arun_S wrote:I suspect the long mid body fins on some missile is because on those are long range missiles that spend considerable flight time in level flying, lift from body alone is sub-optimal, thus augmented by winged lifting surface, not to mention that for terminal engagement at limit of engagement range, very high lift for lateral acceleration is very desirable, and those mid body wings are an asset.


Yes generally long ranged AAMs like AMRAAM, Adder, MICA etc have mid body mounted wings for imporving range while crusing. Short ranged IR missiles like AIM-9 don't use fixed wings but carnard fins for steering (AIM-9X is different from earlier versions as it uses tail fins for steering alongwith thrust vector probably to avoid two actuators powering TVC vane and carnard fins) and tail stabalizers with rollerons to stalbalize the missiles and prevent the missile from rolling.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby saip » 16 Sep 2008 17:51

if Astra is launched tail-on (stated as ~30km range) against an aircraft flying at Mach 1.2, it will never catch up to the target if its speed is only Mach 1.2.


But if the missile is launched from an aircraft which itself is travelling say at mach 1, wont the missile speed be increased by that amount?

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby asbchakri » 16 Sep 2008 18:19

saip wrote:
if Astra is launched tail-on (stated as ~30km range) against an aircraft flying at Mach 1.2, it will never catch up to the target if its speed is only Mach 1.2.


But if the missile is launched from an aircraft which itself is travelling say at mach 1, wont the missile speed be increased by that amount?


How? i'm no expert on that but i think when the misile is detached from the aircraft it is on its own as far as speed is concerned.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Tanaji » 16 Sep 2008 18:21

Thanks Rahul and Arun... clears a lot of things.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Rahul M » 16 Sep 2008 18:27

asbchakri, you don't need to be an expert. simple class X inertia knowledge is enough. :wink:
when a missile is fired from a moving platform, its (initial) velocity is same as that of the aircraft.
this is over and above the velocity its propellants will generate. in fact, AAMs do give better performance if the firing aircraft has a higher speed/altitude than when it doesn't.

Thanks Rahul and Arun... clears a lot of things.

you are welcome boss !

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby asbchakri » 16 Sep 2008 18:35

Rahul M wrote:asbchakri, you don't need to be an expert. simple class X inertia knowledge is enough. :wink:
when a missile is fired from a moving platform, its (initial) velocity is same as that of the aircraft.
this is over and above the velocity its propellants will generate. in fact, AAMs do give better performance if the firing aircraft has a higher speed/altitude than when it doesn't.

Thanks Rahul and Arun... clears a lot of things.

you are welcome boss !


Oh ok thanks Rahul think i missed that lesson :lol:

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Kakarat » 16 Sep 2008 19:07

rad wrote:IT IS SAID THAT THE ASTRA FLEW TO INTERCEPT THE 2ND SIMULATED TARGET AFTER 60 SECS, WELL IF THE AVERAGE SPEED IS TAKEN AT MACH 2 THAT IE 660 METER PER SEC THEN THE RANGE WOULD BE APPROX 40 KM. IS MY ASSUMPTION RIGHT, IF SO THE RANGE WOULD BE MORE WHEN FIRED FROM AN A/C DUE TO THE IMPARTED VELOCITY OF THE A/C. SO CAN WE SAY 60 KM APPROX, WELL IF MY ASSUMPTION IS RIGHT THEN WE HAVE A SAM MISSILE THAT HAS EQULA OR GREATER RANGE THAN THE AKASH MISSILE . ANY COMMENTS


Nitesh wrote:
The single-stage, smoke-less and solid propelled missile is one of the smallest missiles developed by the DRDO as far as size and weight are concerned. After the post-mission analysis, a source informed that the missile covered about 15 km and hit two simulated targets as coordinated before dropping into the Bay of Bengal.

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... kuKw=&SEO=

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby rad » 16 Sep 2008 19:15

15 km is too low a range for a mraam , obviously it is not right because if the missile travelled for 60 secs and covered 15 km then the average speed would be approx 250 meters per sec . I think the nag missile travels faster!. The r-73 travels further I think.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Nitesh » 16 Sep 2008 19:19

rad wrote:15 km is too low a range for a mraam , obviously it is not right because if the missile travelled for 60 secs and covered 15 km then the average speed would be approx 250 meters per sec . I think the nag missile travels faster!. The r-73 travels further I think.

rad, these missiles were tested from a ground launcher, not from an aircraft. Hope this clarifies the doubt.


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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Raj Malhotra » 16 Sep 2008 22:33

I think US & Israeli have dropped mid body fins from their missiles. See Barak-2 or 8 or NG pics for the same.

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Re: Indian Missile Technology Discussion - 27 March 2008

Postby Sid » 16 Sep 2008 23:06

Raj Malhotra wrote:I think US & Israeli have dropped mid body fins from their missiles. See Barak-2 or 8 or NG pics for the same.


you can say the same for Aster-30.

Astra looks more like it and spelling also matches a bit :roll:.


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