The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 18 Sep 2008 20:05

RM,

While that is true, I recall that many laughed at the idea of a MKI.

BTW, going back to the topic of thsi thread: If u have some time to kill + pinch of salt

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Austin » 18 Sep 2008 20:53

NRao wrote:RM,

While that is true, I recall that many laughed at the idea of a MKI.

BTW, going back to the topic of thsi thread: If u have some time to kill + pinch of salt


Thats the beautiful Mig-1.42 , that was supposed to be the soviet response to F-22 ( dont confuse with the displayed Mig-1.44 that was a TD ).

Rumours has it that Mig sold the design to China for a price for the Chinky 5th Gen fighter program.

I wish Mig resurrect its own 5th Gen program and we see that beautiful design in some avtar , may be same design but single engine 8)

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Rahul M » 18 Sep 2008 21:03

austin that was the LFI istribityel 2000 wasn't it ?

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Austin » 18 Sep 2008 22:36

Rahul M wrote:austin that was the LFI istribityel 2000 wasn't it ?


Was it ? my impression always was it was a Mig-1.42 , may be you are right .

What ever it is , its really beautiful and elegant design , I hope to see a Klimov single engine ( 180 kn) powered variant of this design.

May be the aerodynamic expert can give us some details of this LFI design

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Rahul M » 19 Sep 2008 03:53

Image

a bit of game !
is this a canceled 5gen project ? what do the 5gen experts think ?
I assure you guys it's russian and real, no PSed job ! :wink:

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Austin » 19 Sep 2008 07:18

Thats a PSed thinge because even the single engine Mig 5th gen A/C had twin angled outward vertical stabliser.

Oh i just forgot that the Mig 5th gen proposal (LFI 2000 ) which lost out to Sukhoi PAK-FA was heavily based on the Soviet 5th Gen Mig-1.42 , so its possible they looks pretty similar.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Jaeger » 19 Sep 2008 11:17

Rahul M wrote:Image

a bit of game !
is this a canceled 5gen project ? what do the 5gen experts think ?
I assure you guys it's russian and real, no PSed job ! :wink:


No boss it's an old 1950's or thereabouts fighter design by (i think) an imigre... i think he was italian commie... for the old Sov. U. 400% sure onlee!

I mean the nationality could be wrong, but that's an old, old, one about the time the Draken was designed. i had this book with a pic of the prototype, can't remember it was loooong ago. but fell in love with this one... so it has stuck in the brain... :twisted:

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Jaeger » 19 Sep 2008 11:22

bliss to not give answer! if you let this one remain a mystery to everyone then 1 week from now we'll see PS versions of China's NEW STEALTH J-XXX with the WU TAN CLAN WS-XX engine and the PL-1000 mizzile etc. etc.... EVEN BETTER THAN PAK-FA AND F-22!!!!

and THEN you tell them the answer.... :rotfl: :twisted:

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Rahul M » 19 Sep 2008 12:42

where are our other PAKFA experts ? what do they say ? :wink:

jaeger, plz check PM.

Oh i just forgot that the Mig 5th gen proposal (LFI 2000 ) which lost out to Sukhoi PAK-FA was heavily based on the Soviet 5th Gen Mig-1.42 , so its possible they looks pretty similar.

actually I-2000 was a response to the LFI demand while 1.44 and s-37 were in response to the MFI demand. IIRC sukhoi had a LFI candidate too.

anyway, both these were scrapped and it was decided only one OKB's design would be selected for the new RuAF requirements which eventually became the PAKFA.
LFI was not a PAKFA contender. the mig contender which lost, like the sukhoi contender now didn't have a name that was announced to the public.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Jaeger » 19 Sep 2008 13:01

Rahul M wrote:
jaeger, plz check PM.



Yessir have done so, unfortunately I cannot reply since my post count is that of a newbie despite being on the forum for several years now... :oops:

Pointing no fingers, let me just say that 'Forum S/W Upgrades' have robbed me of several hundred posts at the v. least... :evil:

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby rkhanna » 20 Sep 2008 17:47

The last time i remember reading the MI-2000 (LFI) program got sold to the Iranians. They are now passing it off as their new Safeg (Sp?) Fighter or some such thing.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby negi » 21 Sep 2008 15:01

^^ That pic does not tell much, Ru and USA will have umpteen number of such paper planes which never made it to even wind tunnel tests leave alone prototype stage.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Rahul M » 21 Sep 2008 20:33

you are correct. that's a late 40's design by BI Chernokovskii called BICh-26 that never went beyond the drawing boards. a similar design BICh-24 was wind tunnel tested.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby namit k » 28 Sep 2008 15:19

Image

russians are said to be developing different types of stealth planes,this one is a stovl

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby sarabpal.s » 28 Sep 2008 18:18

further development of YAK 141

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakovlev_Yak-141

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby renukb » 29 Sep 2008 17:50

India, Russia to develop 2 versions of 5th-generation fighter

15:03 | 29/ 09/ 2008

NEW DELHI, September 29 (RIA Novosti) - Russia and India will jointly develop two versions of a new fifth-generation fighter, the head of an Indian defense company said on Monday.

A Russian-Indian advanced multirole fighter is being developed by Sukhoi, which is part of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), along with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), under an intergovernmental agreement signed in October 2007.

"The aircraft will have different wings, electronics and radars," HAL Chairman Ashok K. Baweja said after a meeting of the Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission on military technical cooperation in New Delhi.

He also said India will develop a two-seat version to meet the requirements of the Indian air superiority doctrine, while Russia will develop a single-seat fighter.

Russia's Sukhoi aircraft maker earlier said it had started the construction of a prototype of the fifth-generation fighter, which will feature high maneuverability and stealth to ensure air superiority and precision in destroying ground and sea targets.

The Russian version will be built at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aircraft-manufacturing plant in Russia's Far East.

Flight tests of the fifth-generation fighter will begin as early as 2009, and mass production of the aircraft may start by 2015, Sukhoi said.

Russia's military cooperation with India goes back nearly half a century, and the country accounts for about 40% of Russian arms exports.

Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission sessions are held annually and alternate between New Delhi and Moscow. The previous meeting took place in the Russian capital in October 2007.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Raj Malhotra » 29 Sep 2008 19:22

renukb wrote:India, Russia to develop 2 versions of 5th-generation fighter

15:03 | 29/ 09/ 2008

NEW DELHI, September 29 (RIA Novosti) - Russia and India will jointly develop two versions of a new fifth-generation fighter, the head of an Indian defense company said on Monday.

A Russian-Indian advanced multirole fighter is being developed by Sukhoi, which is part of Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), along with India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), under an intergovernmental agreement signed in October 2007.

"The aircraft will have different wings, electronics and radars," HAL Chairman Ashok K. Baweja said after a meeting of the Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission on military technical cooperation in New Delhi.

He also said India will develop a two-seat version to meet the requirements of the Indian air superiority doctrine, while Russia will develop a single-seat fighter.

Russia's Sukhoi aircraft maker earlier said it had started the construction of a prototype of the fifth-generation fighter, which will feature high maneuverability and stealth to ensure air superiority and precision in destroying ground and sea targets.

The Russian version will be built at the Komsomolsk-on-Amur aircraft-manufacturing plant in Russia's Far East.

Flight tests of the fifth-generation fighter will begin as early as 2009, and mass production of the aircraft may start by 2015, Sukhoi said.

Russia's military cooperation with India goes back nearly half a century, and the country accounts for about 40% of Russian arms exports.

Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission sessions are held annually and alternate between New Delhi and Moscow. The previous meeting took place in the Russian capital in October 2007.


Earlier there was talk that even engines would be India specific, this seems to have been dropped. Another thing missing is that India will contribute on fabrication of "composite" parts. I think what is going to happen is that Russia will make 100% indigenous PAKFA for itself. Indian PAKFA will have 75% Russian components. Even before Indian PAKFA flies, technology will be transferred to China and Pakistan

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby sarang » 29 Sep 2008 19:49

Please Mr. Malhotra,
edited.
We all know pakistan is way back failed to put any challange to India (Atleast Conventionally) and china doesn't have to look at us only. They have bigger problems to handle. Both of them know they will not get anything first class from anyone including Russia. Both of them can not be trusted by any country (except ofcourse islamic and poor counrties).
Last edited by Rahul M on 30 Sep 2008 00:52, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: you have no right to diss others opinion this way.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby vavinash » 29 Sep 2008 21:26

Irrespective of PAK-FA or not, IAF needs MCA to be doubly sure.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 29 Sep 2008 22:50

Earlier there was talk that even engines would be India specific, this seems to have been dropped. Another thing missing is that India will contribute on fabrication of "composite" parts. I think what is going to happen is that Russia will make 100% indigenous PAKFA for itself. Indian PAKFA will have 75% Russian components. Even before Indian PAKFA flies, technology will be transferred to China and Pakistan


Tech being exported to Chicom/TSp is a possibility. However, I doubt, given what is in this article, that it would be of much use to them. Perhaps some can be absorbed, but certainly not to the level of different wings, radars, electronics, etc.

WRT engines, I would expect that still to be in the game plan ....... not in this article.

And, 2015 is for RU PAK-FA, certainly not for the Indian one. Some components may be cross used, perhaps even a majority could be used, but the Indian PAK-FA would be in no hurry - from news reports.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby rkhanna » 29 Sep 2008 23:33

And, 2015 is for RU PAK-FA, certainly not for the Indian one


Didnt the Indian ACM also say 2015 in a recent interview?

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 29 Sep 2008 23:37

rkhanna wrote:
And, 2015 is for RU PAK-FA, certainly not for the Indian one


Didnt the Indian ACM also say 2015 in a recent interview?


My recollection is first flight of Indian PAK-FA is 2015, while expected induction of first RU PAK-FA is 2015.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Raj Malhotra » 29 Sep 2008 23:39

edited.
Last edited by Rahul M on 30 Sep 2008 00:56, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Deplorable language. it would be better if you don't try to handle such problems on your own.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby m mittal » 29 Sep 2008 23:49

Hey Guys,

Lets keep this clean

Relax

We belong to democratic country and "Freedom of Speech" is a fundamental right.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 29 Sep 2008 23:50

OK, let us get a baseline once and for all:

RU PAK-FA: Sept 1, 2008 :: With EDO Purchase ITT Is Poised For Bigger Piece Of EW Market

Sukhoi Su-35 A ‘Transfer Model’ To Russian 5th Generation Fighter

With the development of a fifth-generation fighter remaining a "top priority," Russia’s Sukhoi Co. in July described its gap-filler Su-35 multi-role fighter, which first flew Feb. 19.

Fitted with a glass cockpit, information management system and advanced, multi-mode phased array radar, the Su-27 Flanker derivative is being readied for both the Russian air force and the export market. Addressing a Farnborough Airshow press briefing July 14, Mikhail A. Pogosyan, Sukhoi Holding director general, said Sukhoi sees a potential world market for 200 Su-35s. Candidate countries are seen in South America, southeast Asia, Africa and the Middle East.

The "4++" generation aircraft, slated for serial production in 2011, will serve as the "transfer model" to a fifth-generation fighter, said Pogosyan, speaking through a translator. The latter, PAK-FA, program is expected to be a 7- to 10-year effort that is a "top priority [and] on schedule," he said. Pogosyan was quoted in airshow press reports as saying a T-50 prototype would fly late next year, with production beginning in 2015.

The first prototype of the Su-35 was demonstrated July 7 at the M.M. Gromov Flight Research Institute in Zhukovsky, outside Moscow, to Russian Ministry of Defense and air force officials as well as foreign diplomats and journalists, Sukhoi said. But the aircraft was not available for the trip to Farnborough, which instead was treated to a dramatic flight display of Lockheed Martin’s fifth-generation F-22 Raptor.

Two more Su-35 prototypes were being assembled by the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aviation Production Association (KnAAPO) and were expected to be rolled out this year. A fourth prototype is planned as a production standard aircraft. The fighter is powered by "substantially modified" AL-31F engines with increased thrust and a vectored thrust nozzle.

At the core of the Su-35 avionics is an information management system that integrates "functional, logical, informational and software subsystems into a single complex," Sukhoi said. The aircraft is fitted with an Irbis-E X-band, multi-role radar with a passive, phased antenna array mounted on a two-step hydraulic drive unit, in azimuth and roll. The Irbis-E radar, developed by the Tikhomirov Scientific-Research Institute of Instrument Design (NIIP), detects and tracks up to 30 air targets, engaging up to eight. The radar detects, chooses and tracks up to four ground targets in several map-making modes with various resolution at a range of up to 400 km, Sukhoi said.

The Su-35 and Superjet 100 regional airliner are key projects as Sukhoi transitions from a primarily military aircraft manufacturer to a more diversified company, Pogosyan said. The Superjet first flew May 19, and type certification to Western standards is expected in mid-2009. Sukhoi and partner Alenia Aeronautica announced orders for 25 Superjet 100s at Farnborough — the first to European customers outside Russia — bringing total orders to 122.

"We are changing the perception of the company in the world’s eyes," Pogosyan said. "...If you want to be a global player, you can’t concentrate solely on the military." – Bill Carey


Note that 7 year effort puts it in 2015, while 10 year will place it in 2018 or so.

Aug 31, 2008 :: India may test futuristic jets by 2015


India hopes that the first developmental flight of the stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), to be co-developed with Russia, will take place by 2015-2016.


‘‘The FGFA should fly for the first time by 2015 or so. If it manages to do so earlier, then it will be a big achievement. Negotiations with Russia are making good progress, with the details being worked out,’’ IAF chief Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major told TOI on Thursday

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby VinodTK » 30 Sep 2008 03:02

Russia brings big deal


New Delhi Sept. 29: India and Russia are likely to design and develop different versions of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), which both are jointly developing and producing, defence sources indicated on Monday. After discussions between visiting Russian defence minister Anatoly Serdyukov and defence minister A.K. Antony on Monday, it was announced that India would procure 347 T-90 tanks from Russia, while another 1,000 T-90 tanks would be manufactured in India. The two ministers also discussed the delivery schedule of the Admiral Gorshkov aircraft-carrier, as well as its price escalation. The different FGFA versions are because India needs a two-seater, while Russia wants a single-seater aircraft, sources said. The FGFA project agreement had been signed in October 2007. Indian Air Force doctrine mandates that a pilot and a weapons system operator should jointly operate this aircraft.

Defence sources said the FGFA would have “high-stealth capability, engage multiple targets, and embedded weapons.” Sources said its engines would be 20 per cent more efficient than Sukhois. On Monday, India and Russia also agreed to extend the Inter-Governmental Commission on Military Technology’s tenure by another 10 years. An apex committee was also formed “to iron out problems (for) projects for acquisition.”

http://www.deccan.com/Nation/NationalNews.asp?#Russia%20brings%20big%20deal

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby sarang » 30 Sep 2008 07:28

Malhotra, Rahul.
I am sorry for my rude language.

But my point was not to disturb the punch of the news because of some third rated technology nations.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Avid » 02 Oct 2008 18:15

According to the Article -
India, Russia to have different versions of same fighter plane
Sandeep Unnithan
New Delhi, September 29, 2008

The FGFA is to enter squadron service by 2015 and will replace at least three classes of aircraft in the IAF.


The primary differences - design changes because of India wanting twin-seat configuration, and also larger combat radius.

Now - the Russian version of PAK-FA in single-seater configuration T-50 is to begin test flight next year. With design changes being brought about for the Indian PAK-FA - what would be a reasonable start time for flight testing that configuration - 2012?

IMO 2015 for entering squadron service may not be impossible. But if they are promising 2015, I am inclined to be a skeptic and estimate it will be more like 2016-17. The induction rate is highly unlikely to exceed 12-15 a/c per year. And if the investment of $5B is to be amortized, a purchase of >200 will need made.

The most curious element is that the FGFA will replace at least three classes of aircraft in IAF
Are they talking three classes? or are they talking three types?

A request for BR members - can we come up likely retirement schedule of IAF aircrafts?

Mig-21

Mig-23

Mig-27

Mig-29 -- IIRC the upgrade news indicated that their life will be extended such that retirement would be in the 2020-2025 window. IMO Mig-29 and Mirage upgrades are designed to allow staggered retirement of both these aircrafts and replacement with one single type.

Jaguar -- I know the last one recently came off the production line, however the retirement will begin with the first ones... retirement of early jags slated to be begin 2020?

Mirage -- the Mirage upgrade is suppose to extend life by 25 years. That would imply the retirement schedule for 52 Mirages (with replacement rate of 13 per year) will have be some where between 2024-2029

Based only on numbers it appears that the IAF will be retiring aircraft as follows:

Mig-21 replacement by LCA (perhaps MK1, MK2, ...) with first induction starting 2010/11. Are Mig-21s likely to replaced 1:1 with LCA? IMO unlikely because of production constraints. More likely numbers of LCA are around 200. [which leaves 200 Mig-21s replacement up in the air]

Mig-23 -- retired and replaced by SU-30 MKI (??)

Mig-27 -- 160+ in service. To be replaced by SU-30MKI and MRCA (??) -- considering that the upgraded Mig-27 are to be retired by 2020-25?


NOTE:
1. Total SU-30 MKI to be inducted is ~230 (40+10+140+40) -- this balances 1:1 retirement of both Mig-23 and Mig-27 [induction of all MKI to be complete by 2014]

2. MRCA -- 126+(80??) - begin induction optimistically 2012
- initial inductions along with LCA will compensate for lost aircrafts that have not been replaced (primarily Mig-21s)
- later inductions will balance retirement of some of the earlier jags to come about close to 2020;

Even if MRCA order extends order to include the +80 and MRCA is to replace Mig-21 1:1 it can barely replace half of Mig-21s -- where is the other half going to come from?

3. LCA -- 20 (+10 training) -- replace one squadron of Mig-21 by 2015. Hopefully, further orders will allow LCA to replace Mig-21 1:1 -- for over half of the Mig-21s to be replaced.

4. FGFA -- induction begins 2018-2020. These will go directly into replacing the Mig-29 and Mirage 2K and tail end retirement of Jaguars.
Last edited by Avid on 02 Oct 2008 18:54, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby m mittal » 02 Oct 2008 18:44

Mig-21 - Bison will be in service till 2025. 125 in active service

Mig-27 - Being upgraded. Will be in service till 2025. 130 in active service.

Jaguar - 65 early aircraft being upgraded to Darin III standard. 130 in active service. Will remain active with IAF till 2020-2025

Mig-29 - Being upgraded. Will remain active till 2025. ~65 in active service

Mirage 2000 - To be upgraded. ~50 in active service. Will remain active till 2025-2030

With close to 500 aircrafts scheduled to be retired by 2025. India better have some kick ass plans to replace them with next gen fighters

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Dmurphy » 02 Oct 2008 18:55

m mittal wrote:Mig-21 - Bison will be in service till 2025. 125 in active service

Mig-27 - Being upgraded. Will be in service till 2025. 130 in active service.

Jaguar - 65 early aircraft being upgraded to Darin III standard. 130 in active service. Will remain active with IAF till 2020-2025

Mig-29 - Being upgraded. Will remain active till 2025. ~65 in active service

Mirage 2000 - To be upgraded. ~50 in active service. Will remain active till 2025-2030

With close to 500 aircrafts scheduled to be retired by 2025. India better have some kick ass plans to replace them with next gen fighters


We plan to have about 20 LCAs + 8 (LSPs+PVs+TDs) till 2015. So assuming we produce about 15 Tejas every year...by 2025, we'll have about 160-170 in all. Hopefully all upgraded to mk3 standards with an AESA radar and Kaveri mk2(?) engine.

We should also have produced all 126 MRCAs by then.

This leaves a void of about 200 aircrafts ~ 12 squadrons.
Assuming we have a fully operational PAK-FA by then, we should produce about 100 of that kind by 2025.
That leaves a scope for about 100 more aircrafts...
Hopefully we will have developed a decent MCA by then. But i doubt if we'll have 100 of them by then.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Avid » 02 Oct 2008 18:58

Thanks for the updates.

I believe retirements begin 3-4 years before the due retirement date. Staggered induction and staggered retirement. Problem with IAF is that if begins staggered retirement from farthest out date when the planes start falling out of the sky.

Mig-21s -- I thought we needed to replace a total of 400+ Mig-21 -- many of which are retired but not replaced.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Rahul M » 02 Oct 2008 20:24

Avid wrote:The primary differences - design changes because of India wanting twin-seat configuration, and also larger combat radius.

that line got me thinking.
a two-seater would normally carry less fuel than its single seater counterpart.
the wing re-design that we are hearing of is probably to create one with more fuel capacity than the other one.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 02 Oct 2008 20:39

Now - the Russian version of PAK-FA in single-seater configuration T-50 is to begin test flight next year. With design changes being brought about for the Indian PAK-FA - what would be a reasonable start time for flight testing that configuration - 2012?

IMO 2015 for entering squadron service may not be impossible. But if they are promising 2015, I am inclined to be a skeptic and estimate it will be more like 2016-17. The induction rate is highly unlikely to exceed 12-15 a/c per year. And if the investment of $5B is to be amortized, a purchase of >200 will need made.

The most curious element is that the FGFA will replace at least three classes of aircraft in IAF
Are they talking three classes? or are they talking three types?


The FIRST FGFA is expected to fly in 2015. I suppose it will be inducted in 2020,.......my guess.

A request for BR members - can we come up likely retirement schedule of IAF aircrafts?


Can you please take this discussion to the IAF thread? And, leave the PAK-FA to this thread?

Perhaps we should rename this thread as FGFA (and remove the PAK-FA).

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Kartik » 02 Oct 2008 21:00

Avid wrote:Thanks for the updates.

I believe retirements begin 3-4 years before the due retirement date. Staggered induction and staggered retirement. Problem with IAF is that if begins staggered retirement from farthest out date when the planes start falling out of the sky.

Mig-21s -- I thought we needed to replace a total of 400+ Mig-21 -- many of which are retired but not replaced.


its not a problem with the IAF. given a choice, they'd have loved to retire the MiG-21s on time, but there were no replacements and you cannot suddenly face a shortfall of 200 odd combat aircraft by retiring an entire aircraft type without looking at the fatigue life left in some of the airframes. Thats why the IAF went in for the Bison upgrade, else the entire MiG-21 fleet would be retired by now. circumstances led the LCA to be delayed, and then the GoI made a mess out of the MRCA requirement.

besides, the MiG-21 attrition figures are lower now than they were when the MiG-21s were at the peak of their service history. even given that there are fewer MiG-21s flying and that MOFTU is gone, its not like they're "falling out of the sky".

and being limited combat aircraft in terms of payload, range, capabilities we needed such a huge number of them. now since the IAF is getting 230 MKIs, a bunch of roles that multiple MiG-21 squadrons were doing can be done by a single squadron. You know it, yet I reiterate that a single Su-30MKI can carry the warload of 2-3 MiG-21s and perform tasks that would need multiple MiG-21s such as EW, A2A and A2G, it can fly longer and farther. so we don't need a one-to-one replacement.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby SaiK » 02 Oct 2008 21:23

VinodTK wrote:Russia brings big deal

Defence sources said the FGFA would have “high-stealth capability, engage multiple targets, and embedded weapons.” Sources said its engines would be 20 per cent more efficient than Sukhois. On Monday, India and Russia also agreed to extend the Inter-Governmental Commission on Military Technology’s tenure by another 10 years. An apex committee was also formed “to iron out problems (for) projects for acquisition.”

http://www.deccan.com/Nation/NationalNews.asp?#Russia%20brings%20big%20deal


Leaving the T90s aside, neither Russkies nor We have demonstrated capability in high-stealth, embedded weapons and efficient engines. Perhaps on the engines, I am seeing a more capability with Saturn's consistent venture and expertise, but from engineering and stealth tech, this is going to be a big drainer for the national exchequer that helps those thousand men who would make money for generations with russkie chicks and their offsprings.. while we suffer in real stealth tech.

What do the russkies have? let them put it on the table, viz the technology.. links please?

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby NRao » 11 Oct 2008 19:58

Sept 29, 2008 :: India, Russia to have different versions of same fighter plane

Sandeep Unnithan
New Delhi, September 29, 2008

The Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) being jointly developed by India and Russia will look substantially different for the two countries. While the Russian version will be a single-pilot fighter, the Indian variant will have a twin-seat configuration based on its operational doctrine which calls for greater radius of combat operations.

"The Indian FGFA is significantly different from the Rusisan aircraft because a second pilot means the addition of another dimension, development of wings and control surfaces," said Ashok Baweja, chairman of the Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), which is developing the aircraft alongwith Russia's Sukhoi design bureau.

Speaking to mediapersons at the eighth Indo-Russian Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation (IRIGC), Baweja said that both sides had moved closer towards identifying the key areas of participation in the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft Programme (FGFA) for which both countries had signed a joint agreement in 2007. India would bring into play its expertise in composites, lightweight high-strength materials that significantly bring down the weight of an aeronautical platform.

The Russian aircraft is thus called because it is a successor to virtually every fourth and 4.5 generation fighter aircraft like the MiG-29 and Su-30 MKI in the inventories of both countries. It has been dubbed the 'Raptorski' for its similarity to the US F-22 Raptor that entered squadron service this year.
PAK-FA 'T-50'

The first prototype of the Sukhoi Design Bureau's PAK-FA 'T-50' fighter aircraft is set to fly in Russia next year. "We are in the process of defining what part of the contract to give to the Indian production agencies,'' said Alexey Fedorov, president of the United Aircraft Corporation, the umbrella organization of Russian fixed-wing aircraft manufacturers. Fedorov said that the process of identifying the participation of Indian partners in the FGFA would be completed by the year-end or in the shortest possible time.

According to Baweja, it features stealth, or a drastic reduction in the aircraft's radar cross-section or 'signature', and the ability to 'super cruise' or jet engines that fly stealthily without engaging noisy afterburners even at supersonic speeds, embedded weapons with the capability to engage multiple ground, sea and air targets and seamless communication between the fighter, other aircraft and ground stations.
Baweja said that the first prototype of the FGFA was to fly next year with the ALF-31 FP engine. He said he would want an engine that had 15 to 20 per cent more growth than this engine in the final aircraft configuration. The FGFA is to enter squadron service by 2015 and will replace at least three classes of aircraft in the IAF.

The joint-venture borrows heavily from the success of the Brahmos project but seems fated to repeat its story. By the 1990s, Russia, the world's only operator of supersonic surface-to-surface missiles, had already perfected the Yakhont missile but lacked the funds to pursue its development. Indian stepped in with the finance in 1998 and the missile was re-launched as the Brahmos.

Designs for the PAK-FA have already been frozen by the Sukhoi design bureau, which means that Indian aircraft engineers have already missed out on the critical knowledge curve of aircraft design. Also, the unequal status of the Indian and Russian aviation industries means India will be the junior partner contributing very little except finance. "So if we have missed out on the design phase, we have to analyse the cost-benefits of acquiring only super cruise and stealth technology for $ 10 billion," asks Air Vice Marshal Kak.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Dmurphy » 11 Oct 2008 20:16

Guys...the PAK-FA's deemed to carry the same engine as that of Su-35s. Won't that affect the RCS of the plane and make it less stealthy?

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Rahul M » 11 Oct 2008 20:28

what does selection of engine have to do with RCS ?
the same class of derivative engines power the b-2,f-16,f-14,f-15 and the u-2.

RCS from engines is managed by housing them in compartments where blades stay hidden from em waves. usually s-shaped compartments. it has nothing to do with engines themselves.

engines are however modified in stealth oriented a/c to reduce their IR signature which is different from RCS.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Dmurphy » 11 Oct 2008 20:32

Rahul M wrote:engines are however modified in stealth oriented a/c to reduce their IR signature which is different from RCS.


Guess thats what i wanted to know. Afterall the engines too give out a heat signature and just wanted to know if there's anything that can be done to reduce it.

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Re: The Indo Russian PAK-FA Project

Postby Rahul M » 11 Oct 2008 20:40

so why did you say RCS then ? :-?

anyway, IR reduction is done by cooling down the exhaust gases by mixing it with air at normal temperature.
btw, we have had a report on DRDO's work on reducing exhaust temp for rotor engines. guess what that would be used for ! :wink:


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