India nuclear news and discussion

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 02 Oct 2008 02:23

Debate over.
Two votes scheduled: One on the Dorgan/Bingaman killer amendment
One on the full Bill.

Paki Harkin earned his zamzam cola with a speech declaring that India is no friend of US.
For some strange reason the vote threshold for both is 60 votes. I guess that makes the Amendment less likely to pass, but also makes me wonder about the full Bill.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Oct 2008 02:27

Most likely the Dorgan/Bingaman amendment will be voted down otherwise they dont trust Rice. It could be a sop for the NPA faithful for having forked over support to the Senators.

Lets see what the outcome for the other one is?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 02 Oct 2008 02:29

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&tab=w ... 1248371665

Why America Needs A Nuclear India
Forbes, NY - Sep 30, 2008
Thanks to an extensive diplomatic effort by the US and sustained work by the government of India, the 45-nation Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG), ...

Senator expresses confidence in US-India pact
The Associated Press - Sep 30, 2008
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Senate's top Democrat expressed confidence Tuesday that senators could vote on a US-India nuclear cooperation accord as early as ...

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 02 Oct 2008 04:28

Is there any url to track this process live / near real-time?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 02 Oct 2008 04:34

SureshP wrote: Watch CSPAN-2
http://wwitv.com/portal.htm?http://wwit ... els/83.htm

Enjoy!

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 02 Oct 2008 05:37

narayanan wrote:Is there any url to track this process live / near real-time?

Of course, near real time - or pre-realtime there is also BRF.

Vote results:
Amendment - NO (is nixed)
Bill passes.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 02 Oct 2008 05:40

This is Predictor-Corrector, I presume?

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 02 Oct 2008 05:45

N - No, amendment is resoundingly defeated.
For bill proper yes about 85+ (If I can count the yea correctly)
Boxer and about 9 other gang member are no..
(Both McCain and Obama - Yes)
Passes (86 to 13).

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 02 Oct 2008 05:54

Wow! Can't find on any website yet.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 02 Oct 2008 05:55

Senate passes the bill 86-13.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 02 Oct 2008 05:56

The link by RajeshA shows voting as on going ...ok now done. 86 aye to 13 no ? did i hear it right.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 02 Oct 2008 06:10

OK, so that means, in the words of Dorgan/Bingaman/PakiHarkin:

India is proceeding on a parallel path of building a nuclear arsenal, and we are telling them, we close our eyes to that,.....

That's it, as close as it gets to Official World Recognition as a Nuclear Weapon Power. In the end, the US Senate said

to the notion that if India tested nuclear weapons, the US President would have to certify that no US materials were used....

All irrelevant. It's all up to Indians now, to be smart about the twin paths of civilian power, and developing the RIGHT strategic power base.

Congratulations to the Indian Nuclear Scientist and Engineer - what YOU built is recognized as a world-class nuclear weapon program.

And congratulations to the Indian worker and entrepreneur - you are seen as the real power of tomorrow!

From famine-basket-case to superpower in one generation, without violent revolutions, or denying rights to the poorest of our citizens.

WE DID IT. JAI HIND!

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 02 Oct 2008 06:23

Good...it's done now. Now both versions have to be reconciled, then voted and President has to sign.

Well done.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 02 Oct 2008 06:27

Send chewingam to Bingham
Bakri doodh deti hai ,par mengna daal daal ke.

Onward to discuss /think of strategic part . India Japan or China or Dono hatho me Laddoos.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 02 Oct 2008 06:28

From Reuters.com

Congress OKs Indian nuclear deal, sends to Bush
Wed Oct 1, 2008 9:05pm EDT

By Susan Cornwell

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Congress on Wednesday approved a landmark deal ending a three-decade ban on U.S. nuclear trade with India, handing a victory to President George W. Bush on one of his top foreign policy priorities.

Final approval came as the Senate voted to ratify the deal, 86-13, sending the legislation to Bush to sign into law. The Senate's move came just ahead of an expected trip to India this weekend by U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

The Bush administration says the pact will secure a strategic partnership with the world's largest democracy, help India meet its rising energy demand and open up a market worth billions.

But ( deleted... )
India has a yawning energy deficit (need more powerful yawns like Gir Sher), and the accord opens up this market worth billions to American companies such as General Electric and Westinghouse Electric, a unit of Japan's Toshiba Corp.

Rice spent much of the past month in an all-out effort to persuade Congress to approve the pact, which the Bush administration says will transform the U.S.-India relationship. Bush wanted the deal approved before leaving office in January; Congress is expected to adjourn soon for elections.

The accord enjoys bipartisan support in Congress, where many lawmakers favored it as a way to create jobs in the U.S. civil nuclear industry while cultivating the small but affluent Indian-American community.

Assolatullahs said the deal was deeply unwise, overturning decades of U.S. policy of refusing to sell nuclear technology to nations lacking full safeguards against that technology's diversion into nuclear weapons programs.

IRAN CONCERNS

"Why are we rushing to pass this gravely flawed agreement?" demanded Sen. Tom Paki Harkin, an Iowa Democrat bought and paid for by the Al Qaeda, before the vote. There was nothing in it, he said, to prevent India from resuming nuclear testing. (Damn right, PakiHarkin!) India, which first detonated a nuclear device in 1974, last tested in 1998.

The deal would also weaken U.S. efforts to deny Iran a nuclear weapon, Harkin said. He said Indian entities already had sold sensitive missile technologies to Iran, which the Bush administration suspects is pursuing a nuclear bomb. (Oh, yeah, including the Surya Gigaton Bomb design).

But supporters said they expected India to move quickly to negotiate a new safeguards agreement with the International Atomic Energy Agency.

"The benefits of this pact are designed to be a lasting incentive for India to abstain from further nuclear weapons tests and to cooperate closely with the United States in stopping proliferation," Indiana Republican Sen. Richard Lugar said.

Before approving the pact, the Senate rejected an amendment by Sen. Jeff Bingaman of New Mexico and Sen. Byron Dorgan of North Dakota, both Democrats, making clear that another Indian nuclear test would lead to termination of the deal.

.... France announced on Tuesday that it had signed a nuclear cooperation agreement with India, and Russia is already building two 1,000 megawatt reactors in the southern Indian state of Tamil Nadu.

Local media say India's monopoly Nuclear Power Corp has tentatively picked four suppliers, including Westinghouse Electric and France's Areva, for planned new projects

India is also reported to be negotiating with General Electric, Japan's Hitachi Ltd and Russia's atomic energy agency Rosatom..

(Editing and by Kristin Roberts and Eric Walsh)

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 02 Oct 2008 06:33

HR7081's primary sponsor is Berman - doesn't that mean the House and Senate versions are pretty much identical?

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 02 Oct 2008 06:36

Good going. India needs to now go back and decide if its worth doing business with GE or not and then decide. IF India feels that they could get hurt..don't buy any reactors from the US.

Simple as that.

Just because the deal has come through doesn't mean that India has to tie itself into a knot. Maybe sign the F-18 deal for helping India to do nuke deals with France and Russia.

Its now all about making smart choices!

Manny

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 02 Oct 2008 06:41

From Dera Kangaroo Khan

US to resume nuclear trade with India
Thursday, 2 October, 2008

The US Senate has endorsed a landmark US-India nuclear agreement, removing the final legislative hurdle for resumption of civilian nuclear trade between the two countries after three decades.

Senators voted 86-13 to give overwhelming approval to the deal that lifted a ban on civilian nuclear trade imposed after India first conducted a nuclear test explosion in 1974.
The agreement was already approved by the US House of Representatives at the weekend by a 298-117 vote.

The congressional backing underscored bipartisan support for President George W. Bush's bid to improve relations with India, the world's most populous democracy, officials said.

"This is one of the most important strategic diplomatic initiatives undertaken in the last decade," said ranking Republican Senator Richard Lugar.

"By concluding this pact, the US has embraced a long-term outlook that will give us new diplomatic options and improve global stability," he said.

At attempt by several senators earlier to amend the agreement to make it clear that the deal would be scrapped if India carried out further nuclear test explosions was rejected by a unanimous vote.
Bush and Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh first agreed to the deal in 2005 but political divisions within the ruling Indian coalition delayed approvals in New Delhi.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 02 Oct 2008 06:50

kreponullah

Michael Krepon, co-founder of the Henry L. Stimson Center, a research organization in Washington, called the promise of big dollars and American jobs “pure fantasy” and predicted that the United States would regret further opening the nuclear door.

“There will be a reckoning for this agreement,” he said. “You can argue till you’re blue in the face that India is a special case. But what happens in one country affects what happens in others.”

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Oct 2008 06:55

A big congratulations to K Subramanyam garu for having the vison to seize the moment and guide the process during various PMs from alpha to omega- 1968 to 2008. A 40 year tapas - a true tryst with destiny!

And to all the PMs who made this possible.

Its ten years since POII and 35 years to POKI.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 02 Oct 2008 07:24

For those who are curious, Here are the 13.
Akaka (D-HI)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Brown (D-OH)
Byrd (D-WV)
Conrad (D-ND)
Dorgan (D-ND)
Feingold (D-WI)
Harkin (D-IA)
Leahy (D-VT)
Reed (D-RI)
Sanders (I-VT)
Whitehouse (D-RI)

Was a little disappointed from one of (OH) senator, I did not vote for him but still disappointed that an young guy will fall in with the old cronies..

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 02 Oct 2008 07:26

AoA.

I hate to use churchill, but blood, sweat, toil and tears did go into this. Onward!

arnab · Post by **arnab** » 02 Oct 2008 07:29

Damn, I shall miss this thread

But let us not switch off the light yet - test, test, test - but who shall ghanti the billi.

A NATION AND ITS TOOTHLESS NUCLEAR DOCTRINE
India’s strategic nuclear programme is driven less by technical and operational logic and more by hollow posturing, writes Brijesh D. Jayal

Failing to assure
Even as the celebrations at our joining the ‘nuclear club’ start to ebb, contrary information from across the Atlantic is getting shriller. The ministry of external affairs now accepts that there are differing perceptions of the 123 Agreement between India and the United States of America. When such issues become the bone of contention, there is no prize for guessing who will be at the receiving end. Clearly Tarapur has not taught us any lessons.

Throughout this debate, there has at least been unanimity on the need for India to maintain a credible nuclear deterrent. In spite of this, one is disappointed that the subject of testing has been treated in such a cavalier fashion. There has also been deafening silence, from the one community that, at the end of the day, is responsible to the executive to ensure that, should the moment of reckoning ever come, our nuclear weapon systems will deliver on what our nuclear doctrine professes, namely “to credibly deter, and, should this fail, then punitively retaliate”. The reasons are not far to seek. The armed forces have been left out of the nuclear policymaking, research and development and testing loops altogether for reasons best known to successive governments. Not surprisingly, the retired uniformed fraternity has nothing to say, thus depriving the debate of a vital techno-operational viewpoint.

To achieve successful weaponization quite apart from demonstrating the technology itself, the nuclear devices need to be miniaturized, designs need to be ruggedized, mechanical and electronic arming and safing systems need to be installed to prevent unauthorized or accidental detonations, and all these need to be tested for high reliability individually and systemwise, both under static and dynamic conditions. After integration to delivery platforms, the entire weapon system needs to be thoroughly tested through development, field and user trials (except for actual warheads which need their own individual testing) to shake out design/engineering bugs. It is important to highlight that institutionalized procedures regarding weapon standards, quality, testing and certification exist and must not be given the go-by, just because we are dealing with a nuclear weapon system. Unfortunately, this is precisely what has happened.

For reasons of security and different specializations needed, the process of nuclear weaponization was divided between the Bhaba Atomic Research Centre, Defence Research and Development Organization and other laboratories. The military as user was kept out. In his book, Weapons of Peace, Raj Chengappa relates how a confidential review by Arun Singh on instructions of Prime Minister V.P. Singh found the poor coordination between agencies disconcerting and called it an unacceptable situation. With such a shaky foundation, sound testing with user participation should have assumed even greater criticality. P.K. Iyengar, a former chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission who played a key role in Pokhran I, recently told a national daily that nuclear tests are an absolute necessity to maintain a credible nuclear deterrent and such tests are a method by which the requirements of the users, namely the armed forces, are met.

According to the website of the Federation of American Scientists, of the five nuclear weapon states, the US has conducted 1,054 nuclear tests, the former Soviet Union 715, France 210, UK 45 and China 45. It has also been reported elsewhere that of the tests conducted by the US, around 130 low-yield tests were related purely to the safety aspects of operationalizing nuclear weapons and their designs. Since these are nations that have developed, tested and operationally deployed nuclear weapons over decades, clearly there is a message in these statistics. Pakistan is not being mentioned because its warheads are proven Chinese designs and its need to test arises not out of design, development and operational compulsions, but purely out of posturing.

S. Ramgotham in his article, ‘The case for nuclear testing”, in http://www.rediff.com says: “But even with all that data from a thousand nuclear tests, American scientists are still unsure about the effects of ageing and deterioration on the nuclear parts or the nuclear-explosive package of their warheads. Despite over 50 years of manufacturing and deploying of nuclear weapons, despite years of experience and expertise conducting sub-critical tests and computer simulations, American scientists are still unsure about the reliability of their nuclear weapons. Indeed, some time ago, weapons experts discovered a design flaw in the W-76 warhead, which the Trident’s D-5 missiles carry, which meant that it perhaps would not have exploded when launched.”

Specifically on the safety aspects, it needs emphasis that there is a big gap between testing any weapon, nuclear or otherwise, in laboratory conditions and doing so as an operational tool to be handled in field conditions by the military. The number of safety tests conducted by the US is itself a pointer to the importance of testing, preceding the operationalizing of nuclear weapons into military service and keeping them safe and credible for effective operations.

Recognizing the importance of comprehensive testing as a pre-requisite to successful operationalizing of nuclear weapons, the nuclear weapon states have been keen to bind potential nuclear weapon states into the comprehensive test ban treaty. In this context it is worth recalling what our external affairs minister said in the United Nations general assembly in 1995. “We are glad that negotiations are in progress, but we also note that nuclear weapon states have agreed to CTBT only after acquiring the know-how to develop and refine their arsenals without the need for tests.... Developing new warheads or refining existing ones after a CTBT is in place, using innovative technologies, would be as contrary to the spirit of CTBT as the NPT is to the spirit of non-proliferation.”

This statement implicitly recognizes that testing is an integral step towards new weapon development or refining existing ones and that sub-critical capability needs knowhow generated by actual test data. It is no coincidence that the Hyde Act of 2006, which authorizes the Indo US deal, also forbids the so-called ‘sub critical’ tests that do not generate sustained nuclear chain reactions.

Since tests involve the entire development cycle of technology demonstration, proof of design concept, integration to delivery platforms, development and user acceptance tests, clearly the 1998 tests should have been the beginning of this entire testing and operationalizing process and not the culmination. Had we been serious about our long-term strategic objectives, we would have continued with further tests towards achieving the ultimate objective of arriving at a weapon system that had the stamp of the user as an operationally usable, safe and reliable system. Only then would the world have considered our nuclear weapons capability as credible enough to deter.

Earlier in an article, A. Gopalakrishnan, the former chairman of the Atomic Energy Regulatory Board, made the point that “the assertion by some senior scientists in 1998 that the country had successfully conducted one thermonuclear weapon test, and therefore need not test again, was strongly repudiated at that time by both national and international nuclear weapon experts”. Nevertheless, so carried away were our scientists with Pokhran II that painstaking and rational analysis of test results, that is, the very object of testing, was short-circuited and the scientists reached the conclusion that further tests were not needed.

Clearly our strategic nuclear programme was now being driven not by cold technical and operational logic, but by hollow posturing. This nuclear and military amateurishness has by no means gone unnoticed within the confines of the elite nuclear club of five and the larger brotherhood of the NSG. Whatever spin we may want to put on this after the NSG waiver, the bottom line is this. If we test, the waiver is off. So if knowing this, we are happy to celebrate the waiver, it only suggests that we do not consider further development tests towards operationalizing our nuclear arsenal necessary, a euphoric conclusion that was reached hastily and controversially after the 1998 tests and which still remains our nuclear mantra. Our nuclear deterrent will thus remain underdeveloped, unreliable and unsafe.

None of these knee-jerk reactions befits a nation that has embarked on safeguarding its national security in the international nuclear environment, a nation that through sixty years has zealously nurtured and guarded its military nuclear potential, through thick and thin. Now that we have convinced ourselves that we have a good deal, we must also accept the inevitable consequence. Our nuclear doctrine is good in theory, but not credible in practice. Those who know better are quite happy to let us bask in our self-created glory without being deterred. As long as we get drawn into the folds of the NPT and CTBT, however indirectly, they are quite happy to massage our nuclear-power ego.

While the nuclear powers can rest on their laurels for having furthered their non-proliferation agenda, the danger to us is from within. The nation sincerely believes that we have the ability to deliver on our nuclear doctrine. Correspondingly, its strategic foreign policy and security postures will be moulded on this false premise. Should the time ever come to put this capability to test, our nuclear emperor will be found to have no clothes.
The author is a retired air marshal of the Indian Air Force

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1081002/j ... 909629.jsp

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Oct 2008 07:30

narayanan wrote:OK, so that means, in the words of Dorgan/Bingaman/PakiHarkin:

India is proceeding on a parallel path of building a nuclear arsenal, and we are telling them, we close our eyes to that,.....
That's it, as close as it gets to Official World Recognition as a Nuclear Weapon Power. In the end, the US Senate said to the notion that if India tested nuclear weapons, the US President would have to certify that no US materials were used....

All irrelevant. It's all up to Indians now, to be smart about the twin paths of civilian power, and developing the RIGHT strategic power base.

Congratulations to the Indian Nuclear Scientist and Engineer - what YOU built is recognized as a world-class nuclear weapon program.

And congratulations to the Indian worker and entrepreneur - you are seen as the real power of tomorrow!

From famine-basket-case to superpower in one generation, without violent revolutions, or denying rights to the poorest of our citizens.

WE DID IT. JAI HIND!

Congrats everyone even those who are away.

N^3, Doesnt that clause mean whatever you do dont use our maal! And a signal to world that its a when and no longer an if?

And we want the Left too right?

ramana

Double scotch on the rocks.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 02 Oct 2008 07:40

Wouldn't it be a riot if India tests one next weekend! And claim..we are just testing the 123 agreement!

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 02 Oct 2008 07:45

Congratulations, India.

Had to claw up to reach here. But this is a major position to be in. Didnt want anything in this legislation that even remotely jeopardize the hard earned NSG waiver.

Far from being ideal but it is now and here and a good enough beachhead to establish ourselves and grow up from here to a position matching India position, capability and aspiration of 1.2 billion people. For the high priests of US Congress this once and for all removes India to be the punching bag, for the biblical Original Sin. This establishes in US Congress the belated recognition of India as Nuclear weapon state, out side NPT, yet strengthening NPT and not wrecking it.

March forward now.

Sab Bharatiya log ko hardik Abhinandan. The "Navmi : Dasahara" season is just right to light up some more fatakada.

{PS: Edited to fix spelling and grammar}

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Oct 2008 07:47

WSJ report

WASHINGTON -- The U.S. Senate passed a landmark nuclear pact with India on Wednesday night, opening the door for U.S. energy companies to enter India's fast-growing market.

Reuters

The agreement, which now only needs the signature of President Bush, will require India to allow international inspections of its nuclear facilities. The Bush administration has made the deal a top priority. It has also been working to end nuclear programs in North Korea and Iran in the final months of Mr. Bush's term, though those efforts have run into roadblocks in recent weeks.

The Senate voted 86-13 to approve the treaty, in a vote held immediately before the chamber passed the $700 billion financial rescue package.

India's power-generation capacity is lagging far behind the country's expanding energy needs. The economy has grown an average of 8.7% each year over the past five years. That trend, combined with rising incomes, has lifted electricity demand by 9% a year.

Other countries have expressed interest in getting into the Indian market, and France concluded its own civilian-nuclear deal with India on Tuesday.

For U.S. companies, the deal will open a multibillion-dollar market for the sale of everything from power-transmission equipment to airplanes.

Suppliers of technology and equipment, including General Electric Co. and Westinghouse Electric Co., a unit of Toshiba Corp., hope to benefit from India's nuclear-power plans.

General Electric built nuclear power plants in India in the 1960s and is interested in building new reactors there, as well as providing fuel and other services for new and existing reactors. General Electric said it has had "limited" discussions with Indian officials about the country's energy plans.

Westinghouse Electric, based outside Pittsburgh, plans to build up to eight reactors in India for $5 billion to $7 billion each. It stepped up meetings with government and industry officials in India this year in anticipation of an agreement.

Boeing Co. and Lockheed Martin Corp. have bid to sell 126 fighter jets to the Indian government, in a deal valued at $8 billion to $10 billion.

The White House and State Department held last-minute negotiations over the past two weeks with key members of Congress to get the deal completed before the president leaves office. The House of Representatives approved the treaty, which was three years in the making, on Saturday.

The U.S. has sought to curb the spread of nuclear technologies globally. It has also tried to strengthen ties with India, which it sees as a potential counterweight to China.

Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has staked his government's survival on the deal, which he argues is crucial for India's energy needs.

Sen. Chris Dodd, a Democrat from Connecticut, urged colleagues in the Senate to approve the deal, saying, "To have a good strong relationship with this country in this century will be of critical importance to our safety as a nation and to the safety of mankind."

Democratic Sen. Byron Dorgan of North Dakota, however, raised concerns that President Bush failed to set sufficient safeguards against India testing nuclear weapons. Sen. Dorgan said the agreement hadn't received adequate consideration by Congress and that it rewarded India for what he described as the nation's defiance of international nonproliferation principles.

Mr. Bush and Mr. Singh met in Washington last week, when the two sides first hoped the agreement would be sealed. Speaking to reporters in the Oval Office then, Mr. Bush said the deal had "taken a lot of work on both our parts."

Write to Louise Radnofsky at [email protected]

Bush will have his notings on the final bill.

Some time ago I had predicted that amendment will go down. But it had to be presented to show the NPA that they did try.

Boxer has some thing against India. It was coming out clearly in the Hyde hearings.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 02 Oct 2008 07:54

Am trying to catchup after being away from computer for some time.

ramana wrote:I just had a thought. What the J18 & M3 and now the US 123 have done is to put the onus of good behavior vis a vis India on PRC.

For the US and West preserving the NPT structure is a supreme interest. The only way it can broken is with a large yield test by any non -NPT power. What India has done is assured them that it wont breakout unless its supreme national interests are threatened. And those can be affected only by PRC with its aggressive behavior on borders or further proliferation to TSP or BD. So now its a national interest for the rest of the P-5 to ensure that this doesnt translate into reality to preserve their power structure.

ramana

That is indeed very interesting and important observation.

Add to that the opportunity for India to still build serious and highly credible n weapons with global reach without breaking moratorium (for the next 20 years after which India is largely free of consequence to doing a nuclear test). Simply build two high energy Laser Ignition Facility (LIF) publicly for civil physics experimentation and the other for mil use. That will leave no one in any doubt of Indian N missile reach with very long range and capable of high yield RV delivery. That will demand IMHO 3 independent weapons team for development & stewardship for next many decades. BTW as I understand Cheen also has 2 very capable LIF, one that is open to international researchers, and the other identical facility for mil use.

India need to fix the big disconnect (per my understanding) between the user services and the scientists. The confidence of user services will come from having a cell in each service whose job is to challenge, referee and ensure the real customer is satisfied with potency of package and weapons systems. Having 3 user cell IMHO is critical, compared to say only one cell in SFC. After that IMHO India will not need any more capability than A-3 & A-5, in uninary and mirv confign.

This way India can have the cake and eat it too w.r.t. forcing geopolitical actors to conform to Indian interest in short/medium term, yet build full capability armory for 360 degree deterrence to match Indian intentions as demands unfold in future.

Just my 2 naya paisa.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 02 Oct 2008 08:18

India will command respect in comity of nations and particularly the Anglo Saxon devils when it behave like elephant with long memory, and ensure that those senators and NP Ayothullah's who opposed India will assuredly earn the rewards of their Karma. That I think is very important.

Friends should feel blessed to have Indian friendship and the enemies should rue their follies and be frightened of Indian vengeance. That is the shape of India that I wish to see.

Jai Bharat.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 02 Oct 2008 08:39

Oct 2nd Date too.

From the infidel website - CNN

Sen. Tom Harkin, an Iowa Democrat, spoke against what he called flawed legislation before the vote.

"If we pass this legislation, we will reward India for flouting the most important arms control agreement in history, the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, and we will gravely undermine our case against hostile nations that seek to do the same," Harkin said.

Before he voted against the bill, he said Congress had not debated the legislation properly.

"It was hustled through [the House of Representatives] without any hearings and without a vote in the House Foreign Affairs Committee," he said. "Here in the Senate, the Foreign Relations Committee held just one hearing with just one witness who spoke in support of the agreement."

Presidential candidates Sen. Barack Obama and Sen. John McCain voted for the bill.

President Bush urged the Senate to pass the bill in a statement released before the vote. The bill "represents a major milestone in the transformation of our nation's important relationship with India," the statement said.

One senator had anonymously been using parliamentary rules to prevent the bill from coming to a vote, but the leaders of the Senate announced Tuesday night the vote would go ahead.

The Indian nuclear market is a rich prize, and the agreement could open the way for U.S. companies to earn billions of dollars building nuclear power plants in India. The French government clinched its own nuclear trade deal with India on Wednesday when President Nicolas Sarkozy signed an agreement in Paris. That puts French companies in the running for some of the same contracts U.S. companies want.

In an informal agreement between the two nations, the United States said it would halt any nuclear cooperation should India resume testing

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 02 Oct 2008 09:03

This is probably the ONLY foreign policy accomplishment that the Bush administration has and it has gone a long long way to improve Indo-US relations. Remember, before this all trade deemed dual use that has the capability to deal with atomic weight 85 and higher was prohibited.

Sherrod Brown has mingled with the Indian-American community and taken money from them and has now STABBED them in the back. In the US House of Representatives, even that India baiter Dan Burton (R-IN) voted for this deal!

Its time to treat Sherrod Brown, this madarchod for what he is - a back stabber!
Please donate and help his opponent. My guess is that he will be up for re-election in 2010 or 2012.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 02 Oct 2008 09:10

A toast to India (her team) and U.S. (her team)!

One small step.... but a beginning of a new journey nevertheless.

For folks who have a perpetual antipathy to the U.S. -
good or bad we owe a toast to Unkil

No other power was capable of pulling this off for India!

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 02 Oct 2008 09:12

Pulikeshi wrote:
No other power was capable of pulling this off for India!

They are the one who kept India in the dog house. With a prospect of large scale war including nuclear war they have removed the shackles reluctantly out of fear.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 02 Oct 2008 09:17

Acharya wrote:
Pulikeshi wrote:
No other power was capable of pulling this off for India!
They are the one who kept India in the dog house. With a prospect of large scale war including nuclear war they have removed the shackles reluctantly out of fear.

British who committed the original sin by misguiding both Unkle and Chacha.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 02 Oct 2008 09:17

ramana wrote:I just had a thought. What the J18 & M3 and now the US 123 have done is to put the onus of good behavior vis a vis India on PRC.

For the US and West preserving the NPT structure is a supreme interest. The only way it can broken is with a large yield test by any non -NPT power. What India has done is assured them that it wont breakout unless its supreme national interests are threatened. And those can be affected only by PRC with its aggressive behavior on borders or further proliferation to TSP or BD. So now its a national interest for the rest of the P-5 to ensure that this doesnt translate into reality to preserve their power structure.

ramana

I had raised this issue before with BR members. The behavior of China is to be controlled using the India Card. The recent news of bad relationship between China and US is another pointer to these developments.

China will cross over to point of no return.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 02 Oct 2008 09:24

A/R
India China equal equal in international discourse will be a good pointer to this .
Lets see if Chicom make any move to settle border issues with India and try to negate this move by USA.
With left discredited , they have few choices left to slow down India's forward march .

awagaman · Post by **awagaman** » 02 Oct 2008 10:07

It is quite sickening to see the ecstasy here and cheering for America now that the Senate has done this. Please remember the prize is/was NSG. Do not buy from America unless you want to regrets this later.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 02 Oct 2008 10:48

Everyone acts in their own interest!

Is it so hard to say thanks and raise a toast?

Yawn! whats the cliche: "no permanent friends or enemies, only interests" -
then why this permanent animosity.

Sean · Post by **Sean** » 02 Oct 2008 11:01

ramana wrote:WSJ report

Boxer has some thing against India. It was coming out clearly in the Hyde hearings.

I agree. As a registered democrat, I plan to vote against her if she chooses to run again. I am glad to see that the other democratic senator from California, Diane Fienstien, voted for the deal. She is likely to run for the Governership of California when Scwazneger's term is up in 2010.

I was extremely disappointed to see that all 13 no votes came from the democratic/independent senators.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 02 Oct 2008 11:02

Congratulations Indian and The US. Specially GW Bush and Manmohan Singh.
And how ironic can it get.
The civilian nuclear deal crosses the final step on Gandhiji's birthday.

Arun_S ji
Are you officially changing your stand and welcoming this passage of the deal? Your post suggests, that provided india does the required investment in LIF and other tech, we can as yet realize our dream to hold forth a "Credible" nuclear detterant.

My opinion on this is:
Manmohan Singh is acutely aware of his position within the congress party. He did not get the mandate from his party leadership for anything more than this nuclear deal. No mandate for nuclear tests, the congress is acutely aware that it lacks a charismatic leadership to manage the aftermath of any tests. Moreover the leadership has to be in place for a few number of years to be able to build rapport with the other leaderships in leading countries. So if the congress comes into power again, (I am not too confidant on BJP's chances given that it faces a leadership crisis, and congress (I) might be on it way to solving its), there will be no spontaneous - unprovoked nuclear tests.
However, India had to be on its best behaviour thourghout this entire process and not do anything that would have rocked the boat - so to say.

Now that a big hurdle on the growth prospects of India has been removed, we need to swiftly move into next gen reforms, capitalise on the aura generated by this new found respect for India, have a double digit growth rate, and invest massively in building our conventional strength. All that the armed forces have asked for to be able to fight a war on two frontiers need to be brought on line within the next decade, sooner if possible. This next decade will be very eventful, with a vengeful china going all out to covertly undermine india's position and prevent it growth from taking off to the next level. What will happen next will in all likely hood change the very concept of what we have known for the last few decades of our experience of India.

So thanks a lot to George W Bush, for finally singlehandedly destroying the falsehood that over 5 decades of western governments had created wrt India.

PS: GWB did thank MMS for the Intelligence that India had provided in the war on terror. A statement by GWB in the last months of his office, perhaps at a personal level this factor also played its part in him deciding that india was honest in its intentions - the way GWB is perhaps, he sees the world in Black and White, no shades of grey for this man !

And thanks to Manmohan Singh, he got similar brickbats during the initial three years or so after the economic reforms were launched, but everyone grudgingly came around.