India nuclear news and discussion

Locked
rajrang
BRFite
Posts: 416
Joined: 24 Jul 2006 08:08

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by rajrang »

amit wrote:
rajrang wrote: On the other hand, China which is growing much faster, and also has the potential for growth because it is still backward relative to the US and 4 times the population, is likely to become more powerful than even the US. But, I believe that China will be the first to "punish" India should India test. Please clarify why the pipsqueaks of today will become major powers, powerful enough to oppose the US (together with China).
Rajrang,

We all know that you worship the Middle Kingdom and you are mortally afraid of its "clout" now and in the future.

Apart from the fact that there are many others, (thankfully, IMO) who are not afraid of the Panda what exactly do you propose that India do so that China does not "punish" India? Send tributes to the God-kings of Capitalist Maoistan? Maybe give up Arunachal Pradesh and then even Kashmir to the Panda's head eunuch TSP?

Remember if China were "punish" India for a test in future it would do the same regardless of whether we signed this deal or not. It's another matter that what's more likely to happen is that the Panda will send conciliatory feelers if we did test. The Mainland Chinese are bullies but they fear and respect those who stand up to them.

Indeed, since you've been harping so much about the soon to be God-like powers of the Middle Kingdom, it's about time that you explain to unbelievers like me what good behavior must India do to make sure that the evil eye of the Panda is not cast on us?

Unless you do that and convince us, I'm afraid this constant harping on the might and power of the Panda sounds like a broken record. And for record you'd do a Pandapoker proud.

JMT
Amit,

Sorry I did not get back sooner - just busy. First I do not "worship" the middle kingdom. I am simply reminding the readers about the considerable strength of China, its proximity to India and its track record of hostility toward India. One two occasions, two generations of Chinese leaders have stabbed India very severely - 1962 and giving nuclear capability to PAK in the eighties/nineties. India should return these favors in kind. How? I am afraid I do not know. I wonder what the 3rd generation of leaders in China today are going to do to India? Unless they are too busy enjoying the comforts of capitalism and economic growth to injure India again.

India does not need to show "good behavior" toward the panda. I was hardly suggesting that. Far from it. Just be aware of the danger. I agree they are bullies. A solution to this will be within India's so long as India recognizes and accepts this danger via Tibet - similar to the threats through Afghanistan for centuries.

Two things come to mind. India should expand its military forces - army, navy and airforce. India can easily spend more on defense - both for salaries and equipment. India should develop close alliances with major powers - such as the US - including formal defense treaties, sharing of bases and airfields, buying aircraft carriers from the US etc.

I also agree I may have repeated myself too often on this point. I should avoid doing so. Hope my explanation assuages your ruffled feelings.
sraj
BRFite
Posts: 260
Joined: 12 Feb 2006 07:04

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by sraj »

State Department Briefing Today
Daily Press Briefing
Robert Wood, Deputy Spokesman
Washington, DC
October 7, 2008
QUESTION: Has India given you to understand that they will sign the nuclear deal once Bush has signed it tomorrow?

MR. WOOD: Let me just say the agreement will be signed at some point by both sides. I just can’t tell you when at this point, but the agreement will be signed.

QUESTION: But – so they haven’t told you when they’ll sign it?

MR. WOOD: We’re trying to work out, you know, a date whereby a signing can take place. But I – again, I would just say to you the agreement is done and the agreement will be signed.

QUESTION: The Indian press says that India, you know, refused to sign until Bush has signed and they can see what certifications and stipulations he’s putting and whether he’s going to address certain -- of their concerns. Is that what they told you?

MR. WOOD: Sue, I would just say to you that the agreement will be signed. The deal is done and we just need to find a date for the signing and --

QUESTION: But what about the Indians signing? That’s what I’m wondering, what they’ve told you about that.

MR. WOOD: Well, you know, I’m not going to get into conversations that we’ve had with regard to, you know, the context, the nature, or the substance of the agreement, because we haven’t really done that. But I can assure you that the agreement will be signed, as I said. You know, we’re just trying to find an appropriate date.

QUESTION: Do you feel confident it will be signed by both sides?

MR. WOOD: I do.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by NRao »

Another reason for Japan's success is that Japan adopted capitalism while India chose socialism.
Capitalism was imposed upon them. BTW, there were Indians recruited (out of retirement) by the UK to "teach" the Japanese some basic things - one of my Grand Uncles was sent to teach them Banking.

India is a combo of capitalism and socialism. BTW, Indian Congress adopted the "five year plan" - from USSR way, way back - 1930s or so. It worked very well and much to the chagrin of both the US and UK they went on to adopt it after independence. What was rather odd was that the US has since adopted it in certain areas - transportation for instance.

However, I was told that MMS was a great fan of the "Japanese Model" - it was about some 12 years ago (I have not been able to see any credible sources on that.) However, true or not, I just do not think THIS model is good for India, as good as that model may be.
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by amit »

rajrang wrote:I also agree I may have repeated myself too often on this point. I should avoid doing so. Hope my explanation assuages your ruffled feelings.
Rajrang,

My feelings are not ruffled at all. I guess it's useful for all us to remember that we're all batting for the same side and we will swim or sink together. In the extended mist of heated arguments I think we tend to lose site of this important point! Hence various acquisitions fly all over the place.

I fully agree with you that the Panda is a bully. But my point is while one needs to always keep a watchful eye on a bully, giving it exaggerated importance also plays into the bully's hands.

Let's just recognise the fact that the Panda is a dangerous neighbour who has stabbed India in the back before. But I get confidence from the fact that India is no longer a babe in the woods, something that was very much the case during Nehru's dreamy eyed Fabian Socialism days.

But let's not digress from the discussion on hand. Peace! :D
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by amit »

NRao wrote: However, I was told that MMS was a great fan of the "Japanese Model" - it was about some 12 years ago (I have not been able to see any credible sources on that.) However, true or not, I just do not think THIS model is good for India, as good as that model may be.
NRao ji,

A lot of discussion is going on about this so-called "Japanese Model" and MMS' alleged fascination for it.

As Ramana ji pointed out on page 41 of this thread people who are interested should read the essay/book by Akio Morita and Shintaro Ishihara. That would give insight to this "Japanese Model" which, like Japanese culture is not as simple as it looks.

Some Westerners have seen behind this so-called model and did not like what they say. Also on Page 41 of this thread I gave a link to an essay written by Louis Leclerc in 1994 discussing the implications, for America, of the POV expoused by Morita and Ishihara. It makes for interesting reading, especially for those who disparagingly talk about the alleged docility of the Japanese post World War II.

JMT
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60268
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by ramana »

Amit, Post Meiji Japan is an interesting case to study and this is not the thread to do so. Please do post and guide the discussion in the India japan thread. Thanks, ramana
asprinzl
BRFite
Posts: 408
Joined: 08 Sep 2004 05:00

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by asprinzl »

Japanese lived in the comfort of their isolation for centuries. A tsunami took care of the planned Mongol invasion of Japan. Recent studies had shown that the tsunami was just a small factor in the disastrous Mongol invasion enterprise. The main culprit was the shoddy boat building workmanship employed by the Chinese slave laborers for their Yuan Dynasty masters. So, the Japanese continued living in their comfortable isolation. The Portugese showed up. The Spaniards showed up. The Dutch showed up. Then the English. The Japanese though intimidated by the appearance of ships armed with dozens of canons were able to isolate their population from these foreigners to a managable degree with minimal problem.

Then one day out of the blue appeared a bunch of gigantic ironclad ships breathing fire and plumes flying red and blue stripes and white stars with blue background showed up. The canons they had were so large that nobody had seen canons of the size before. The man in charge of these armed American steamships was Comodore Perry. His mission was to intimidate the Japanese and to obtain trade concession. ( see the movie titled: The Barbarian and the Geisha staring John Wayne)

For the ruling house in Japan, this was a wake-up call. They had to one do something to overcome the humiliation of being forced to give trade and consular facilities. They also had to deal with the many competing factions that were vying for power. And change they did. Japanese students were sent to America, England, France and Germany to study arts, sciences, modern military sciences and government. From a closed soceity, Japan became a quasi open soceity. Capitalism, however hodpodge it may be was just another logical step past that. Military expansion was another natural progress following suit. First it was the Koreans who had to suffer the Japanese military expansion. Then the Chinese. Then the Russians.

In 1903, the Tzar sent a huge but rusty fleet from the Baltic. It was led by a German. (Ironically as the story goes, during the farewell ceremony, one of the well wisher actually wished bad luck to the German commander because of the wellwisher's hatred for the Tzar). The British refused to allow passage rights through the Suez canal. The ships had to go around Africa. Of the shores of south Africa, they ran out of much coal and other supplies. It took a diplomatic miracle (personal appeal from the Tzar and Kaiser of Germany to the King of England) for them to acquire supplies from British dominated South Africa. The moment the ships entered Indian ocean, they were monitored by Japanese intel who made full use of the telegraph services available. By then Japanese were already running laundry services, restaurant, shoe shine shops, barber shops, fish and chips shop, watch/clock repair shops, bike repair shops and what not ....from Durban, south Africa all the way to coast of China.

The fleet entered sea of Japan sometime around 1904. As is with clumsiness that is all too Russian, regardless of a German commander, on the eve of battle the Japanese were able to track the movement of th fleet because the hospital ship(s) had their lights on during the night which allowed the Japanese gun boats to approach without much difficulties and to train their guns with deadly accuracy. So, the entire Imperial Russian fleet was anhilated. Tojo was one of the gunner officer aboard one of the japanese ship. Japan will unstopable till August 1945.

Capitalism was not forced on to them. They adopted it out of desperation. MacArthur just revived it from the clutches of the oligarchs.
Avram.
Raja Ram
BRFite
Posts: 587
Joined: 30 Mar 1999 12:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by Raja Ram »

As a person who first propounded the likelihood of MMS accepting a "Japanese Model" for India's future position, I need to clarify something here.

The model that I am talking about is the "Japan Model" imposed on post war Japan by the US, the contours of which is the provisions in the constitution designed by McArthur that nutered Japanese capability to wage war, made no war a prime component of Japanese constitution. He also set in place a revived capitalistic structure, oligopolistic party (LDP). The only concession to Japanese legacy was the institution of monarchy but minus its feudal fangs. Also burnt into Japanese consciousness was mass guilt for their actions.

The "Japanese Model" enunciated by Morita and Ishihara is a revival of the old samurai traditions to rebuild and capture the lost Japanese soul. Japan of today is slowly trying to get rid of the western imposed "Japan Model" to a more authentic Japanese model that blends the post war economic super power Japan and its oligarchic democracy with the spirit of the samurai Japan. It is a struggle for them, like our own DIE, modern Japan have their own version of "macaulayised equivalent" Japanese who are resisting this trend.

My assertion in the past was that MMS and Congress may be ok with the western imposed "Japan Model" for the future role of India and not the "Japan that can say No" model that some Japanese are seeking to build. If that is indeed the case, then this deal may be a step towards accepting that status. MMS and his party may share that vision for India but that cannot be the consensus vision of India.

It was certainly not the vision that Congress party had for India for the majority of the time they have been in power. If MMS, Sonia and co are willing to settle for the western imposed "Japan Model" then it is a departure from our carefully nurtured consensus and strategic independence. I dont believe that they have a mandate for that and their attempts must be resisted.

Sorry to the out of context post. Just wanted to clarify as I brought this Japan model into the discussion.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21537
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by Philip »

Asprinzl,legendary British spy,Sidney Riley is supposed to have provided the Japanese with the details of the minefields at Port Arthur.That is how the Japanese were able to take the Russian fleet by surprise.The British wanted the defeat of the Russian navy for their own European strategic purposes.

Meanwhile,here is well known political commentator,Mr.Gurumurthy on the "123 to impotence".

http://epaper.newindpress.com/NE/NE/200 ... ndex.shtml

Nuclear apartheid ended; energy deal energised; it is 123, now go. The Indian media celebrates the US-India nuclear deal, thus. In contrast, the US State Department, in its press note (October 3, 2008) adds one crucial step to operationalise the deal. And that is the President will make two certifications required under the law. They are: one, that terms of the USIndia deal are consistent with the obligations of the US under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) ; two, that it is the policy of the US to work with the Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) to further restrict transfer of equipment and technology related to uranium enrichment and reprocessing of spent fuel; these certificates, read with the 123 agreement, turn a de-facto nuke potent India into nuke impotent India. As if to reaffirm this, Condoleezza Rice, the US Secretary of State, told the media in Delhi on Saturday that the deal would be off if India did a Pokharan again. A shaken Pranab Mukherjee has stepped back, and postponed the signing of the deal that was to coincidewith her visit to Delhi on October 4.
To understand what the certifications by George Bush mean to India, here is the picture of the nuke world, as it stands today. The world nuke weapons club consists of five nations that had tested nuke bombs before 1967 — starting with the US in 1945, then the USSR, afterwards the UK and finally France and China in 1964.

In 1968 the five-member nuke weapons club initiated a Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT). The NPT backdated the last date for entry into the nuke weapons club as 1.1.1967. The intent was that no other nation could become a nuke weapons power, and so the effect was that the nuke weapons club was to be eternally a five-member club. All other nations were to be prevented from acquiring nuke weapons thereafter. These nuke impotent nations were required to sign the NPT admitting and declaring themselves as non-nuke states and give up their right to develop nuke weapons. The nuke weapons powers would assure them that they would not nuke the non-nuke weapons nations. The NPT was thus forced on most non-nuke nations by 1970. But India defied; Pakistan and Israel too followed India. India finally dared the five-member club and tested its nuke at Pokharan in 1998, Pakistan followed. So, to day you have India, Pakistan and also North Korea, as de-facto nuke weapons powers, but, the NPT records say they have no nukes! The NPT had unjustly divided the world nations into two nuclear castes; one, the nuke weapons states as the higher caste and two, non-nuke weapons states as the lower caste. The status of a nuke weapons state is not just a titular ornamentation like the Padma Awards. The nuke weapons states have set one rule for themselves and another for nuke impotent states. The nuke weapons states could keep on adding to their nuke weapon stockpile, test them and use atomic reactors for civil or military purpose without mandatory inspection by the International Atomic Energy Agency. IAEA, a UN agency to ensure that civil nuclear reactors are not misused for weaponising programmes, has no power over the reactors of the nuke weapons powers. The duty of the nuke weapons states under the NPT is actually their power to police and ensure that the others perpetually remain non-nuke weapons states, in the lower nuke caste. So, the civil nuclear reactors of nonnuke weapons states are subjected to a safeguards check by the IAEA to rule out stealthy use of the reactors to produce nuclear weapons. Now come to India. For thirty years upto 1998 India, even when it had no weapon, had refused to sign the NPT that would formally declare it nuke impotent. That’s why it could develop and test the nuke bomb in 1998. But by signing the 123 and IAEA safeguards agreements now, India has formally declared itself as a non nuke weapons state despite possessing the weapons.

Now have a look at the nuclear weapons stockpile of the nuke high caste nations. In 1968 when the NPT was signed the nonweapons states had 36,633 atomic bombs in stock. The nation-wise tally then was: the US 28,884, the USSR 9,399, the UK 310, France 4 and China 1. After 20 years of the nonproliferation regime, their stockpile of weapons did not fall, but, increased by 2/3 to 61,549 with the US having 23,077, the USSR 37,383, the UK 300, France 410, and China 400. So the five nuke weapons powers kept multiplying their arsenal but condemned others to nuclear impotency! This is precisely why India refused to sign the NPT.

Where does India stand today as a weapons state? In 2000, India’s estimated nuke stockpile was 85 to 90 bombs. With China’s 400 and Pakistan’s estimated 45-90, making a total of almost 500 bombs between them, the weapons ratio is almost 5:1 in their favour, and against India.

So India needs to rapidly add to its stockpile of nuke bombs to balance between itself and its two hostile neighbours. This is precisely what the second certificate of George Bush will stall. Stated in simple terms, India makes nuke bombs by reprocessing the fuel spent at its civil nuclear reactors into plutonium and using the plutonium for the bombs. The second Bush certificate ensures that all NSG nations deny this critical technology to India. The first Bush certificate enforces the non-weapons state norms of the NPT on India. The Bush certificates are diametrically opposite to what the Indian government has been assuring the Indian parliament and the public. On top of it is the statement by Condoleezza Rice at Delhi warning against nuke test by India. Forget the US, the NSG’s approval is a permit. India has got it. Now it can shop anywhere, particularly in France and Russia, and get supplies; say the apologists of the deal. France and Russia can certainly give technology and reactors. But what about uranium? The Indian government has repeatedly told Parliament that the deal ensures uninterrupted supply of uranium; a clear misrepresentation. But, even if it were not, who has the uranium to give? Australia which has over a million tonnes of uranium has said ‘no’ to India. Russia has just 1,78,000 tonnes; US some 1,02,000 tonnes. France, UK and China have no uranium. India has about 78,000 tonnes, with a potential to double it. But how come then France, China, the UK, the USSR and the US, which have no or small uranium stocks, have been able to pile such huge nuke weapons, operate hundreds of reactors? Simple.

Being higher caste nuke nations, the NPT entitles them to get uranium from anywhere and use it for any purpose including for bombs, but denies it to non-weapons states. This is the advantage a weapons state gets. Before the 123 deal the nuke club did not accept India as a nuke weapons state. Under the 123 deal India has formally accepted that it is not a nuke weapons state. It has also damaged its capacity to remain a de-facto nuke weapon potent state. Will the UPA government rethink at least now? [email protected] About the author:

S Gurumurthy is a well-known commentator on political and economic issues
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by amit »

Philip wrote: Meanwhile,here is well known political commentator,Mr.Gurumurthy on the "123 to impotence".

http://epaper.newindpress.com/NE/NE/200 ... ndex.shtml
Aha! I was waiting for S Gurumurthy saab to appear on the nuclear thread! Perhaps it's time to revive the Swadeshi Jagaran Manch? After all the Manch has some unfinished business with MMS!
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4582
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by fanne »

amit,
if you have something to contribute then di it!!!!!!!!
Why don't you go after Gurumurthy's arguments, why bring Swadeshi into it? Are you afraid that you cannot argues against his points?
rgds,
fanne
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by NRao »

Amit,

Thanks. I missed that ramana post. Will do and report (if I have anythign worthwhile to state) in the Indo-Jap thread.

However, I am most curious to see if there is actually a MMS-"Jap model" link.

I am also very tempted to start a GNEP thread. I think that is where everything is headed - the new great game in energy.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21537
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by Philip »

I'm delighted that Mr.Gurumurthy is echoing some of my views and others on the deal,"impotentcy" and the nuclear "caste" system,where we "lower castes",as he so well put it,India will as members of the N-club clean and remove the "night-soil" as I put it!
PS: Should we ask for "reservations" too?
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by NRao »

Amit,

I just read Raja Ram's post above. I am with him.

I also read parts of the article/book you mention (Morita). As interesting and imporatnt as it is, it does not deal directly with what I am talking about. Raja Ram is far closer to my thinking.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by NRao »

The NPT backdated the last date for entry into the nuke weapons club as 1.1.1967.
Instead of 123, IAEA and NSG, the proper action would have been to move that 1.1.1967 to 12.5.1998. Problem solved.

That S Gurumurthy had to spell it out shows, or, is it an indication of how low Indian political and strategic thinking has gone?

However, what is very interesting is that he has taken the argument that India can get Ur from a non-NSG country off the table. GNEP just formalizes that.
Last edited by NRao on 08 Oct 2008 17:25, edited 1 time in total.
Lalmohan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13257
Joined: 30 Dec 2005 18:28

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by Lalmohan »

another consequence of the deal would appear to be that India has stepped under the US umbrella for protection against Chinese nukes. I was trying to rationalise if the BU-108 weapons deal was related and if it is pakistan or china specific. it just appears to be overkill against pakistan, and china will not be able to deploy armour against us in strength... so is it a standoff interdiction weapon against chinese BMP brigades and logistical tails in tibet? if so, this greatly enhances our capability (discuss specifics elsewhere)

other option is that its a cold start enhancer that allows us to plough through pakistani armour without resorting to prithvis, or committing too many of our tanks...

also, if civilian Pu cannot be turned into bombs then yes, it definitely slows down weapons production, but there is no talk of slow down of Pu production in the 'military reactors'. What if those produce power too? which could be fed into the grid as a 'military energy requirement'
Rye
BRFite
Posts: 1183
Joined: 05 Aug 2001 11:31

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by Rye »

Nrao wrote:
Instead of 123, IAEA and NSG, the proper action would have been to move that 1.1.1967 to 12.5.1998. Problem solved.
"problem solved" only if you consider the future of the world for the next five minutes, not if you consider the future for the next five months or five decades. It is probably a good thing that Mr. Gurumurthy does not indulge in strategic thinking too often.

There is a real problem that states without the capability to understand nuke deterrence are trying to acquire nukes with the intent of using them -- they will all qualify with the above approach, which is why 123, IAEA, NSG create a huge ruckus even to make small concessions to countries like India, and that too only because India already has the capability to destroy their house of cards. Once Inside, it is in India's interest to let the rest of the crowd keep other people out of the tent for as long as possible. No one is going to let India openly join as P-6 rightaway without specific events that change the global picture, requiring consideration of a successor to the NPT.
Sanjay M
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4892
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 14:57

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by Sanjay M »

NRao wrote:
The NPT backdated the last date for entry into the nuke weapons club as 1.1.1967.
Instead of 123, IAEA and NSG, the proper action would have been to move that 1.1.1967 to 12.5.1998. Problem solved.

That S Gurumurthy had to spell it out shows, or, is it an indication of how low Indian political and strategic thinking has gone?

However, what is very interesting is that he has taken the argument that India can get Ur from a non-NSG country off the table. GNEP just formalizes that.
Unfortunately, moving 1.1.1967 to 12.5.1998 requires a vote from everyone, and that would open up the possibility of all kinds of disagreement. Iran and othe Arab nations might not accept, as this could legitimize Israel's arsenal.

India should have tested back when France did, ahead of the permanent extension of NPT. By not doing so, we missed the boat on NPT. We didn't see their permanent extension move ahead of time.
renukb
BRFite
Posts: 675
Joined: 18 Aug 2008 12:18

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by renukb »

India must maintain equi-distance between US and Russia: Expert
http://www.newspostonline.com/national/ ... 0810078085


New Delhi, Oct.6 (ANI): India might do well if it engaged with Russia with a sense of equi-distance between the US and Russia, an expert on security affairs has said.

Dr. Rajeswari Pillai Rajagopalan, a Senior Fellow at the Institute of Security Studies (ISS), said India and the US need to also leverage the mutual suspicion between Russia and China, and adds that there are several commonalities between Russia, US and India - terrorism, WMD proliferation and a stable Asian security order.

In an article for the Observer Research Foundation (ORF), she says that the United States has to shed its biases about Russia and exploit the Russian wariness of China to its fullest in order to build a cooperative security framework in Asia. ommenting on US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice’s recent statement to House International Relations Committee head Howard Berman that it is the “highest priority” for the US to get an assurance on ban on the export of enrichment and reprocessing (ENR) technology to countries like India that are not party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) at the forthcoming Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) meeting in November 2008, she says that raises fresh doubts on the Indo-US nuclear deal.

Basic facts reveal that the Indian government should be concerned.
First — the Indo-US civil nuclear cooperation agreement is a broad framework agreement between India and the US, and not an agreement dealing with the specifics. However, if India and the US have to do nuclear commerce, few conditions had to met, including an NSG waiver and an India-specific safeguards agreement with the IAEA. Once these conditions are met, India is allowed to do business with the US and other countries in the nuclear arena. Major countries seeking to do nuclear business with India are Russia and France.

Second, if France and Russia are willing to export enrichment and reprocessing technology to India, it will be difficult for the US to prevail upon them not to do so. For the US to bring about an NSG legislation banning export of ENR technology to countries that are not parties of NPT might be a wishful thinking and not a realistic option. This might be the case particularly in the current international scenario, when Russia and the US are on opposite sides almost on all major international developments.

Thirdly, India already has indigenous enrichment and reprocessing technology and therefore it should not be of any great concern if the NSG countries are not willing to part with these technologies. India may not possess the most advanced version of this technology, but the fact that it has this technology indigenously available should be sufficient. However, if India is insistent on an advanced version of this technology, India could even agree to an arrangement for reprocessing or enrichment in a third country, as the international community has suggested in the case of Iran. The concern appears to be that if non-nuclear states get hold of this technology, they could divert these technologies to produce fissile material. It should also be noted that this should not be major concern to the international community because such technology if obtained from other countries it would automatically go under the IAEA safeguards..

Lastly, the Indo-US civilian cooperation agreement is about more than just nuclear energy for India. The agreement has several strategic connotations. The agreement is a consequence of the US’ recognition of India as a major power in the coming century and India’s role in the emerging Asian strategic framework. The current century being an Asian century and the major players being US, China, Russia and Japan, it is important for the US to have an improved and comprehensive relationship with India. It should also be noted that both the US and India have concerns about China’s rise and more specifically its military modernisation that could seriously impact the way China conducts business with the rest of the world. Besides, if the US did intend to take the US-India relationship to a higher level nuclear technology controls would have been a hindrance. Trade in strategic goods and technology is possible only through change in the international and the US’ domestic regulations on this issue. The Indo-US nuclear deal has been a consequence of this line of thinking. However, some believe that the Indo-US nuclear deal is a way of bringing India into the global non-proliferation regime.
Whatever be the US reasoning, the deal is in India’s interest. If India has to sit at the high-table, it is the US that can help India get there.

China, she says, will continually try to bring India down, as was witnessed at the recent NSG meeting.
“On the other hand, while China may not be interested in seeing another giant in Asia, it does not want India to forge closer ties with the United States or other Asian powers that could be detrimental to Beijing’s own regional and global role. Although Beijing does not categorise India as a challenge or threat, it does view India as a “future strategic competitor” that would join any anti-China grouping,” she adds.

“Lastly, there have been several formulations on the evolving Asian strategic framework both in the west and Asia. It is widely expected that the US, China, Japan and Russia will be major powers in this emerging framework. All the powers except China are for an inclusive approach, whereas China appears to adopt an exclusive approach, which seeks to keep other powers out of Asia. This, along with the factor of history and unsettled boundary issues, could lead to serious frictions in the future,” she concludes. (ANI)
Last edited by Rahul M on 08 Oct 2008 19:07, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: edited link format. no need to to use the "url" code, it screws up the "automatically parse URLs" option AND messes up the page format.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60268
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by ramana »

Sanjay M wrote:
NRao wrote: Instead of 123, IAEA and NSG, the proper action would have been to move that 1.1.1967 to 12.5.1998. Problem solved.

That S Gurumurthy had to spell it out shows, or, is it an indication of how low Indian political and strategic thinking has gone?

However, what is very interesting is that he has taken the argument that India can get Ur from a non-NSG country off the table. GNEP just formalizes that.
Unfortunately, moving 1.1.1967 to 12.5.1998 requires a vote from everyone, and that would open up the possibility of all kinds of disagreement. Iran and othe Arab nations might not accept, as this could legitimize Israel's arsenal.

India should have tested back when France did, ahead of the permanent extension of NPT. By not doing so, we missed the boat on NPT. We didn't see their permanent extension move ahead of time.
Thomas Graham, he of the Jaswant Singh's Mole fame, was the point man for US and the suggestion that was amde to India was to stay away as the treaty would be atmost renewed for another 25 years. TG saw the opportunity with Yeltsin govt in place in FSU and pushed for extension in perpetuity which was a dhoka to India and got it.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by NRao »

In an article for the Observer Research Foundation (ORF), she says ..............
I have this original article. Can I post? Or would it violate any rule? Admins, any direction?
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60268
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by ramana »

NRao wrote:
In an article for the Observer Research Foundation (ORF), she says ..............
I have this original article. Can I post? Or would it violate any rule? Admins, any direction?
If you give proper attribution and a link if available then it should be OK. All those copyright laws are to prevent palgarism and passing off others mehna as one own!

ORF should be glad that folks are reading their work.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by NRao »

Blessings from THAT Maharishi!!!

Indo-US Nuclear Deal and the Asian Strategic Framework

Sign in required.
Dr. Rajeswari Pillai Rajagopalan
03 October 2008

Recent statement by the US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to House International Relations Committee head Howard Berman that it is the “highest priority” for the US to get an assurance on ban on the export of enrichment and reprocessing (ENR) technology to countries like India that are not party to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) at the forthcoming Nuclear Suppliers Group (NSG) meeting in November 2008 has raised fresh doubts on the Indo-US nuclear deal. Should that concern the Indian government?

It might be pertinent to go back to some of the basic facts of Indo-US civil nuclear cooperation agreement. First of all, Indo-US civil nuclear cooperation agreement is a broad framework agreement between India and the US, and not an agreement dealing with the specifics. However, if India and the US have to do nuclear commerce, few conditions had to met, including an NSG waiver and an India-specific safeguards agreement with the IAEA. Once these conditions are met, India is allowed to do business with the US and other countries in the nuclear arena. Major countries seeking to do nuclear business with India are Russia and France.

Second, if France and Russia are willing to export enrichment and reprocessing technology to India, it will be difficult for the US to prevail upon them not to do so. For the US to bring about an NSG legislation banning export of ENR technology to countries that are not parties of NPT might be a wishful thinking and not a realistic option. This might be the case particularly in the current international scenario, when Russia and the US are on opposite sides almost on all major international developments.

Thirdly, India already has indigenous enrichment and reprocessing technology and therefore it should not be of any great concern if the NSG countries are not willing to part with these technologies. India may not possess the most advanced version of this technology, but the fact that it has this technology indigenously available should be sufficient. However, if India is insistent on an advanced version of this technology, India could even agree to an arrangement for reprocessing or enrichment in a third country, as the international community has suggested in the case of Iran. The concern appears to be that if non-nuclear states get hold of this technology, they could divert these technologies to produce fissile material. It should also be noted that this should not be major concern to the international community because such technology if obtained from other countries it would automatically go under the IAEA safeguards..

Lastly, the Indo-US civilian cooperation agreement is about more than just nuclear energy for India. The agreement has several strategic connotations. The agreement is a consequence of the US’ recognition of India as a major power in the coming century and India’s role in the emerging Asian strategic framework. The current century being an Asian century and the major players being US, China, Russia and Japan, it is important for the US to have an improved and comprehensive relationship with India. It should also be noted that both the US and India have concerns about China’s rise and more specifically its military modernisation that could seriously impact the way China conducts business with the rest of the world. Besides, if the US did intend to take the US-India relationship to a higher level nuclear technology controls would have been a hindrance. Trade in strategic goods and technology is possible only through change in the international and the US’ domestic regulations on this issue. The Indo-US nuclear deal has been a consequence of this line of thinking. However, some believe that the Indo-US nuclear deal is a way of bringing India into the global non-proliferation regime.

Whatever be the US reasoning, the deal is in India’s interest. If India has to sit at the high-table, it is the US that can help India get there. China will continually try to bring India down, as was witnessed at the recent NSG meeting. On the other hand, while China may not be interested in seeing another giant in Asia, it does not want India to forge closer ties with the United States or other Asian powers that could be detrimental to Beijing’s own regional and global role.1 Although Beijing does not categorise India as a challenge or threat, it does view India as a “future strategic competitor” that would join any anti-China grouping. In fact, a well-known China scholar, Mohan Malik, has pointed to an internal study undertaken in 2005 that recommended that China should undertake measures to keep the current strategic leverage in terms of territory, P-5 membership, or the Nuclear Club; hold on to diplomatic advantages through its special relationship particularly with India’s neighbouring countries; as also maintain the economic lead over India. 2

Lastly, there have been several formulations on the evolving Asian strategic framework both in the west and Asia. It is widely expected that the US, China, Japan and Russia will be major powers in this emerging framework. All the powers except China are for an inclusive approach, whereas China appears to adopt an exclusive approach, which seeks to keep other powers out of Asia. This, along with the factor of history and unsettled boundary issues, could lead to serious frictions in the future. As such, China’s military modernisation has generated considerable debate. The growth of China as a major military and economic power along with its global aspirations for a superpower status remains a serious concern not only to the United States, but Russia, Japan and India. The most worrying aspect is the pace of its military modernisation as also the secrecy that shrouds it. There are also concerns about the leadership in China. It has become evident that the military leadership in China does have an independent agenda of its own and also that it does adopt a hardline approach on important national security and foreign policy issues. It might be imprudent to say that the political leadership is more balanced and therefore PLA’s approach should not be taken seriously. It is also important to note that the military leadership plays a critical role in decision-making particularly during crises. Even if analyses of Chinese civil-military relations exaggerate the PLA’s role, it is the perception that matters. Perception of a potential China threat would produce a series of actions that may be visible in the form of alliances or force posturing by other Asian powers.

If India is a major pole of power in the emerging security framework, it might do well if India engaged with Russia with a sense of equi-distance between the US and Russia. In fact, India and the US need to leverage the mutual suspicion between Russia and China. Although tactical in nature, Sino-Russian relationship does have the potential to emerge as a potent strategic force if the current trend in international politics continues for the foreseeable future. In fact, there are several commonalities between Russia, US and India – terrorism, WMD proliferation and a stable Asian security order. The US has to shed its biases about Russia and exploit the Russian wariness of China to its fullest in order to build a cooperative security framework in Asia.

• Dr. Rajeswari Pillai Rajagopalan is Senior Fellow at the Institute of Security Studies (ISS), Observer Research Foundation, New Delhi. Her areas of research include US foreign and security policy, military strategies of major Asian powers including China, US, Japan and Russia. She can be reached at [email protected].

1 Mohan Malik, “India-China Competition Revealed in Ongoing Border Disputes,” PINR Report, October 09, 2007, available at http://www.pinr.com/report.php?ac=view_ ... guage_id=1.

2 Mohan Malik, “India-China Competition Revealed in Ongoing Border Disputes,” PINR Report, October 09, 2007, available at http://www.pinr.com/report.php?ac=view_ ... nguage_id=. The study, undertaken on the behest of Chinese leadership’s “Foreign Affairs Cell,” had incorporated inputs from China’s South Asia specialists like Cheng Ruisheng, Ma Jiali, Sun Shihai, among others.
sraj
BRFite
Posts: 260
Joined: 12 Feb 2006 07:04

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by sraj »

MMS Commitment to Lok Sabha on July 22, 2008
I say in all sincerity that this session and debate was unnecessary because I have said on several occasions that our nuclear agreement after being endorsed by the IAEA and the Nuclear Suppliers Group would be submitted to this august House for expressing its view.
Has the above been done? Why take any steps on 123 signing before this has been done, and Parliament has had a chance to express its views on the new US riders in HR 7081 which explicitly contradict MMS statements in Parliament.
Arun_S
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2800
Joined: 14 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: KhyberDurra

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by Arun_S »

fanne wrote:amit,
if you have something to contribute then di it!!!!!!!!
Why don't you go after Gurumurthy's arguments, why bring Swadeshi into it? Are you afraid that you cannot argues against his points?
rgds,
fanne
Ditto. I was going to respond to Amit with exactly the same reposte. "Are you afraid that you cannot argues against his points?" that one is going after his birth?
Fanne you saved me the effort. Thks.
ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2614
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by ldev »

Can somebody post the Gurumurthy article?
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by NRao »

Philip has posted it above.
fanne
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4582
Joined: 11 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by fanne »

ldev,
It is few post above, Philip has posted it.
Thanks,
fanne
ldev
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2614
Joined: 06 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by ldev »

Thanks, NRao, fanne.
nkumar
BRFite
Posts: 233
Joined: 06 Jul 2007 02:14

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by nkumar »

sraj wrote:MMS Commitment to Lok Sabha on July 22, 2008
I say in all sincerity that this session and debate was unnecessary because I have said on several occasions that our nuclear agreement after being endorsed by the IAEA and the Nuclear Suppliers Group would be submitted to this august House for expressing its view.
Has the above been done? Why take any steps on 123 signing before this has been done, and Parliament has had a chance to express its views on the new US riders in HR 7081 which explicitly contradict MMS statements in Parliament.
Boss, MMS and his coterie doesn't give two hoots about the Parliament. He has blatantly violated his assurances given to the Parliament. IMO, he and his likes are suffering from the same Nehruvian I-know-all, I-know-what-is-good-for-India type syndrome. The don't respect diversity of opinion and they consider Parliament as the problem and not as a solution to anything, as was visible during the recent vote-buying episode. MMS is a like a kid, who goes to a shop and throw all the tantrums to get his favorite toy without realizing the cost his father has to pay for the toy.
Nirantar
BRFite
Posts: 227
Joined: 07 Aug 2007 20:56
Location: Lion Pur

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by Nirantar »

RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by RajeshA »

Would somebody know of a video link for the ceremony with George W. Bush signing the Nuclear Deal Law? Was the ceremony recorded at all?
Sarma
BRFite
Posts: 147
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: College Station, TX, USA

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by Sarma »

A tepid "Signing Statement" by Pres. Bush (copied from White House Website and pasted below).

Statement by the President on the Occasion of Signing H.R. 7081


RSS Feed White House News

I am pleased today to sign into law the United States-India Nuclear Cooperation Approval and Nonproliferation Enhancement Act, which approves the U.S.-India 123 Agreement. The passage of this legislation by the Congress marks another major milestone in achieving the vision that Prime Minister Singh and I set forth on July 18, 2005, to transform the relationship between our two countries and to establish a strategic partnership. This Act will strengthen the relationship between the United States and India and deliver valuable benefits to both nations.

The legislation does not change the terms of the 123 Agreement as I submitted it to the Congress. That Agreement is consistent with the Atomic Energy Act and other elements of U.S. law. This legislation is important as it enables me to bring the 123 Agreement into force and to accept on behalf of the United States the obligations contained in the Agreement.

The Agreement grants India advance consent to reprocessing which will be brought into effect upon conclusion of arrangements and procedures for a dedicated reprocessing facility under IAEA safeguards.

In addition, the legislation does not change the fuel assurance commitments that the U.S. Government has made to the Government of India, as recorded in the 123 Agreement.

The passage of this legislation reflects the common view of my Administration and the Congress as to the value of nuclear cooperation and is in the interest of the United States and India.

# # #

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases ... 008-3.html
awagaman
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 37
Joined: 13 Aug 2008 16:27

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by awagaman »

Bush statement before signing 123 Agreement law
http://svaradarajan.blogspot.com/2008/1 ... g-123.html

Some preliminary thoughts, minutes after seeing President Bush sign the 123 enabling At into law...

His spoken remarks were cleverly crafted to go as far as he can in accommodating Indian concerns without withdrawing his own earlier statements to Congress. Thus -

* None of the administration's offensive interpretations have been repudiated even as the textual sanctity of the 123 Agreement as submitted to Congress is emphasised.
* No offensive reiteration of Hyde. Act isn't eve
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60268
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by ramana »

No need to send Pranab Mukehrjee to sign anything.
Anurag
BRFite
Posts: 403
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by Anurag »

You can watch the ceremony on http://www.whitehouse.gov , there is a good 10 minute video.

It is a bit annoying with everyone applauding every thirty seconds of Bush's speech. But again, old school Indians will remain old school. Most (not all)always have lacked self awareness and polish.

Bottom line, I can't wait for these kissa$$ folks to be done with their time. No disrespect to anyone here!
awagaman
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 37
Joined: 13 Aug 2008 16:27

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by awagaman »

Will there be a further statement disowning parts of the law that conflict with POTUS power to make US foreign policy? Like after the Hyde Act? NDTV said we should wait for that statement before reaching any final judgment.
rsingh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4451
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 01:05
Location: Pindi
Contact:

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by rsingh »

ramana wrote:No need to send Pranab Mukehrjee to sign anything.
Porqoi pas ?
Sarma
BRFite
Posts: 147
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: College Station, TX, USA

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by Sarma »

The statement by Bush that I posted above is the signing statement. He made a separate speech with all the applause and everything. I don't think there will be anything else. I think it's done, take it or leave it.
NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 19332
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: India nuclear news and discussion - 6 sep 2008

Post by NRao »

All this is rather predictable. India still has the time tested option of bait and switch, .,......... now it being only switch.

The other option - to kill time - would be to import fuel for Indian designed reactors (which, just BTW, I read will produce electricity at half the price!!!!!). Such reactors fall under two cats: those that are under producing and future ones, yet to be built.

Hoard on fuel for sure. Here on out it would be a criminal if any GoI does not act swiftly in its own interest.
Locked