India nuclear news and discussion

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 11 Oct 2008 01:59

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/pranab-rice ... -3-p2.html

Asked about apprehensions that Washington could ask others in the Nuclear Suppliers Group to cut off fuel in the event of an atomic test by India, he said: "I think we can keep on having questions and discussions repeatedly."

"I feel we should be a little more confident of ourselves. We should have a little bit more self-esteem and we should not always require these reassurances. We should grow up. I feel this very strongly," Sen said

Looks like Shri Sen also had experience similar to many on BRF on this thread.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 11 Oct 2008 02:02

BUT I WANNA TEST NUKES! MEGATON NUKES! NOW! NOW! NOW!

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 11 Oct 2008 02:08

Naw be arr a nooklear paawer! Now bee tesht onlee GIGATON Nukes!

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 11 Oct 2008 02:37

As was predicted on BRF on July 18 or 19 2005:

"Its a done deal"

It was inevitable.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 11 Oct 2008 03:33

October 10th, 2008
Ceremony marks U.S.-India pact
Posted: 05:50 PM ET

WASHINGTON (CNN) — Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice said Friday that the new nuclear trade deal between the United States and India will unlock a vast potential partnership.

“Our partnership will be limited only by our will and determination … now I believe there is nothing we cannot do,” Rice said at a State Department ceremony in which she signed the agreement.

“Many thought this day would never come. But doubts have been silenced now.”

She blamed decades of mistrust for leaving that potential unfulfilled. “The world’s largest democracy and the world’s oldest democracy drawn together by our shared values and increasingly by our many shared interests now stand as equals, closer together than ever before,” Rice said.

She was joined at the signing ceremony by India’s minister of external affairs, Pranab Mukherjee.
–From CNN’s Charley Keyes at the State Department

NNN adds:

Outside the hall, there was a cacophony of from Pakis, Chinis, racists, communists, NPAs, Wonks, SOBolskis, Kendalls, Mar-Golas, Seemas, Sid Harths, Karats, Akbars, Naxal Rams, Rajnaths, chaddis, Energizer Bunnies, IMs, Jimmy Carters, nyookular exparts, Boxers, Paki Harkins, Ding-dong-amans, Bermans, PeekeIyengars, Adm. Nadkarnis, Ramdosses, Geelanis, Khalistanis, Kangaroos, Austrian AnSchlooss Nazis, Kiwi sheep, drunken Irish, **fee whinos and nah-nah-nah-sayers.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 11 Oct 2008 03:44

Maybe Margolis should be taken more seriously-he did state that he inspected some of India's nuclear plants.

(Of course McDonald's also lets me inspect their washrooms, in fact show quite a deference-'will there be anything else sir?").

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 11 Oct 2008 03:51

He said he inspected the PLANTS at the nuclear facility.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 11 Oct 2008 03:53

Condaleeza Rice is instrumental in GWB's biggest foreign policy coup in his tenure.

She is the right material for an US President. She'll do a very good job IMO.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 11 Oct 2008 03:57

If McCain weren't such an idiot (or maybe because Rice is too smart) he would have picked her as VP candidate instead of the "dum-dum" (Saturday Night Live Official designation) Palin.

In one stroke he would have neutralized the "first AA" card, and swung the disgruntled Hillary supporters also to his side. And he would have conveyed some semblance of a hope that his team has a clue and that at least if he checks out, there would be a competent hand at the helm.

Rice is simply the best NSA and the best SoS that the US has had. Period.

Rye · Post by **Rye** » 11 Oct 2008 04:04

Narayanan wrote:

Rice is simply the best NSA and the best SoS that the US has had. Period.

No doubt. Ms. Rice is visionary and the main inspiration for this deal ( and she came into a state department flooded with India-hating NPAs when she became SoS). She is a geo-political realist in the true sense of the word.

The Repub. party probably made a decision to take a complete break from the current Bush administration, so Ms. Rice had no chance of being picked.

JMT

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 11 Oct 2008 04:30

vijaya dashami shubha aashaya & eid mubarak

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 11 Oct 2008 04:33

NNN, you forgot these morons

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 11 Oct 2008 04:37

shaardula wrote:

vijaya dashami shubha aashaya & eid mubarak

Poor Gigloo Shortcut , must be hididng some where nearby.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 11 Oct 2008 05:41

Looks like Shri Sen also had experience similar to many on BRF on this thread.

Ah! Remember the "Headless Chicken" comment? That's because he's not diplomatic like moi, who only called them "Energizer Bunnies".

BTW, have you met Ambassador Ronen Sen and heard him talk about India? Absolutely stellar, and he's got the basic old-world Indian courtesy that one cannot buy for $$ or at the IIMs. It was a high point when I got to shake his hand. Classic velvet glove over the brass-knuckles when he gets up and gives the Indian point of view, no holds barred. Far, far cry from the Indian Ambys that used to bumble on TV years ago.

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 11 Oct 2008 06:30

Gerard wrote:
ramana wrote:Whats the veracity of his 286 pounds a year claim?
He got this from here

"India can make 50 nuclear warheads a year"
In an article in the Indian Defence Review, Mr. Sinha said an estimate showed that "the exempted reactors would be able to produce 130 kg of weapon-grade plutonium per year. "

Gerard: Absolute hats off to you for your wealth of research on the topic.

bala · Post by **bala** » 11 Oct 2008 06:31

Finally easy as 123, done deal. Condi Rice, G. W. Bush and MMS can go down in history as the ones who made P5 NWS to P5+1 NWS.

I would have loved to see the **urgent** telegraph message to Comrades Karat & Yechuri about a pay cut from the CCCP.

D. Kimball et al need to send their resumes to monster.com for a new hack job.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Oct 2008 06:36

lucky for him it wasn't pigs he uttered. this happens to those indies who visit massa and getting a shot of western thoughts plugged, and the "true desi isshtyle " yess saab! types deplugged.

happens.. in lighter veins for many, and this is indeed hard fact, perhaps a freudian slip.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 11 Oct 2008 07:05

narayanan wrote:BUT I WANNA TEST NUKES! MEGATON NUKES! NOW! NOW! NOW!

Seriously what happens If we test now as the economic turmoil is on will they really impose sanctions and forgo business?

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 11 Oct 2008 07:11

John Snow wrote:
narayanan wrote:BUT I WANNA TEST NUKES! MEGATON NUKES! NOW! NOW! NOW!
Seriously what happens If we test now as the economic turmoil is on will they really impose sanctions and forgo business?

The real fun will be if Iran throws an empty missile on Isreal.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 11 Oct 2008 07:15

Good point. The DOW will tank a bit more, but LM and Boeing will shoot up as cruise missile, B-2 and JDAM orders will shoot up.

The SENSEX will tank a whole lot more, but no one will notice.

The Rupee will tank more, but Babus with their money in $$ and pounds in Geneva will be happy.

The Paki Stock Market will shoot up.

OTOH, a good shooting war is the best way for the DOW to shake free and soar. Why mess with Eyeran when the Injun targets are so well known and all reactor coordinates are with the IAEA?

AnantD · Post by **AnantD** » 11 Oct 2008 07:33

Glad to see BRF finally cheering about Rice and GWB. I was predicting this was inevitable as far back as 2 years ago with someone here calling me MUTU or some other wise ass acronym.

He's probably sitting on the floor crying on Karat's shoulder right now.

The next step would be to have the Ambani's or Tata's govern the Nuclear Trade with the US, as a partial stake-holder. Would do a lot better than GOI or State Mantri's; don't want a repeat of Enron.

However, there is really no looking back. Just need to act responsibly and there is no limit to anything India wants from the US, trust me.

Would be good if IN and IAF helped control/interdict/seize shipment of nuclear contraband from the usual suspects along with the US in the high seas. Probably a 40-50% chance of that happenning. Just wishful thinking.

Vivek Sreenivasan · Post by **Vivek Sreenivasan** » 11 Oct 2008 09:22

Great news that 123 agreement has been signed. Nuclear isolation is no longer for India. We are now defacto a member of the P5 rather now the P6 nuclear weapons states. Congrates India congrats MMS.

amit · Post by **amit** » 11 Oct 2008 11:24

RajeshA wrote: Though not an ideal deal, but MMS has taken a lot of heat on this, from the Left, from the BJP and countless others. It will not be a bad idea to be able to compare the positions of all those gentlemen and ladies in 15 years time and now.

JMT.

You know Rajesh you raise a very important point IMO.

If you look at it over the past few years, the same political forces/groupings which opposed the 1992 liberalization and discarding of the License Permit Raj are exactly the same folks who are vehemently opposed to the nuclear deal.

I think we haven't really discussed this point in detail. It's my belief the opposition is due to the fact that these groupings are more comfortable with status quo rather than a game changing move which both liberalization and the N-deal has been. Maybe they are scared of the new Dawn and the uncertainties as well as opportunities these events herald.

In 1992 these same folks predicted doom and gloom after the liberalization. Of course now the opposition has become more nuanced, nobody in his right mind will say that liberalization was a bad move. Now, the opposition is more against things like multinationals, FDI, SEZs etc. Again the Left and far Right are closer on these issues than they would like to admit in public.

I have a feeling that now that the N deal has been passed the opposition will just not fade away but will become more nuanced, for example expect a lot of "people's opposition" to the actual setting up of plants for some "environmental" reasons etc.

IMO opposition in India never fades away, it just morphs into new forms.

As for MMS and all the brickbats that he's got both on BRF and outside for the nuclear deal, I guess it's nothing new for him. He was accused of being an IMF agent and worse in the early 90s.

However, it's useful to note that the good Sardar has been associated with two major game changing moves taken by India since Independence. One was the liberalization and now this nuclear deal. The so-called "weakest" PM of Independent India seems to have done quite a lot over the past two decades, first as FM and now as PM.

Let's see how things pan out.

JMT

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 11 Oct 2008 11:55

Funny thing, the Pakistani newspapers have kept mum on the signing of the nuclear deal between India and USA.

Is there enough sand in Pakistan, for all their heads to fit in? Maybe now, when Pakistan is fully broke and has no money for importing Oil, and Teldaata Mai-Baap Sarhdabia does not want to extend any Oil-Facility anymore, may be they would be willing to give some more sand in aid.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 11 Oct 2008 13:08

The me-too syndrome by F.S. Aijazuddin: Dawn

SPLIT from the same geographical ovum 61 years ago, Pakistan has lived apart from India like a severed physical twin. It has always been aware of a previous presence. Every thought, every act, every policy move has been a reaction to something India said or did or threatened to do. Earlier, it used to be manifest in the theatre of conventional arms. Today, it can be seen at the test site of nuclear capability.

In the previous bipolar world, it was easy to choose your friends. Your enemy’s enemy was your friend. India and China fought a war, therefore we courted China as a friend. India flirted with the Communist bloc, therefore the United States became our friend. Common enmities were justification enough for creating or joining an alliance.

Now that the United States has emerged as the singular victor from the Cold War, international politics has become a free-for-all. Your enemy’s enemy is no longer your friend; your friend’s friend could well be your next enemy. Opportunist countries like ours just do not know who to trust any more.

For years, our sun in more ways than one rose dependably from the West. We assumed it would never set, which is why the US-India nuclear deal is regarded here with such foreboding. It is as ominous as a solar eclipse.

We ought to have discerned the portents. We had been given enough warning by more than one US president. When John F. Kennedy forgave Pandit Jawaharlal Nehru his flirtation with the Non-Aligned Movement (and by association communist China), we should have realised that the $160m of US military aid, given to India between 1962 and 1966 after the Sino-Indian war, was not simply belated largesse but conscience money for not rescuing the Indians earlier from themselves.

When President Bill Clinton during his visit to India in 2000 described it as a “natural partner”, he was not advocating organic diplomacy. When, six years later, President George W. Bush deepened Clinton’s tracks with the statement that “Pakistan and India are different countries with different needs and different histories”, we should have recognised that we too were being relegated to history.

When Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice announced this year that her government had de-hyphenated India from Pakistan, we should have interpreted her words for what they were — a candid acknowledgement that India did not stand on the other side of Pakistan so far as the United States was concerned. Diplomatically, India and Pakistan stood equidistant from the US; strategically, the Indian peninsula shared common borders and common interests with mainland America.

For Pakistan, de-hyphenation from India is a second vivisection, this time from a Ravana of its own military fears and anxieties. Pakistan still continues to be one of the highest recipients of US aid, but that is absorbed primarily by the armed forces under one imaginative heading or another. As one analyst put it, Islamabad’s view is that “the ‘de-hyphenated’ policy… has virtually come to mean that Washington is focusing on the Pakistani military role as an efficient, well-trained and well-equipped border militia in the tribal tracts with Afghanistan.”

And what does de-hyphenation mean to India? Freedom from a shared past, and a second boost to strive for a separate future. It means being allowed by its international elders (who in its heart it knows not to be its betters ) to be treated as an adult, a ‘responsible steward’ capable of steering its own ship of state. It means having the United States on its side — at the United Nations, at the IAEA, at the 45-nation Nuclear Suppliers Group, and at the order book end for nuclear equipment, fuel and supplies. Such rewards do not come on demand; they have to be earned.

However facile India’s contention may appear to some that it needs nuclear technology to meet its energy deficit (Mrs Gandhi’s ‘peaceful nuclear’ has now become Mr Manmohan Singh’s ‘civilian nuclear’), this argument has been accepted at face value by everyone that matters. India wants to generate 25,000MW from nuclear sources, and its demands are met. Pakistan proposes under its Medium-Term Development Framework Plan to enhance its energy supplies from nuclear sources from a present paltry 400MW to an ambitious 8,800MW by the year 2030. Its pipe dream remains in the pipeline.

India has electrified 95 per cent of its villages; Pakistan is still struggling to connect villages to the national grid. India plans one additional power plant every month (China by comparison commissions one plant every week); over the past eight years, Pakistan has added only 2,100MW to its power capacity.

India meets over 50 per cent of its energy requirements from indigenous coal; Pakistan’s coal deposits like its heroes lie buried below ground. India’s trade with the US is almost $40bn with a potential of $100bn; Pakistan imports $2bn worth of goods from the US.

India sees its US nuclear deal as a cashier’s grille where anyone who is willing to supply it nuclear reactors and fuel can apply. The US views the treaty as a token, permitting it to stand at the head of the queue. The Indo-US deal is India’s reward for behaving with brahmacharyan celibacy, by not succumbing to the temptation of nuclear proliferation. Pakistan’s nuclear programme has been compromised by its own Dr Frankenstein who was exposed peddling its secrets to the wrong customers.

Before we make demands of the United States to treat us at par with India, we might do well to reconsider also the limited efficacy of our own nuclear deterrence. Are we still sovereign even in that? If Mr K. Subrahmanyam (former Indian secretary for defence production) is to be believed, apparently not. He has cautioned: “Pakistan should also take into account that it is under constant surveillance by the US super-secret ECHELON system and it cannot rule out a pre-emptive strike by the US if it were to think of a nuclear strike on India.”

Had that been written some years ago, it would have appeared far-fetched. Today, with the Americans pounding Fata, it carries in its syllables the chill of the possible.

Hey! With Pakistanis writing such articles, what are the Indians going to do in the future. What is going to happen to our Rozi-Roti, Ehn?!

renukb · Post by **renukb** » 11 Oct 2008 13:28

RajeshA wrote:Funny thing, the Pakistani newspapers have kept mum on the signing of the nuclear deal between India and USA.

Is there enough sand in Pakistan, for all their heads to fit in? Maybe now, when Pakistan is fully broke and has no money for importing Oil, and Teldaata Mai-Baap Sarhdabia does not want to extend any Oil-Facility anymore, may be they would be willing to give some more sand in aid.

Pakistanis know that eventually, they will have to rely on India for their survival.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 11 Oct 2008 18:17

Gentlemen, Ayatollah Sokolski has moved on. The India thing is not reaping rewards so he has a new target - Bushehr.

Iran: Tehran could make 60 nuclear bombs in two years, says US expert

Believe it or not, Iran can make 60 bombs in just two years. From high burnup LWR spent fuel. Using less than 5kg of reactor grade Pu per pit. Iran can reprocess 12 tons of spent fuel a year. Reactors rods can be reprocessed before they have had time to cool down. Pu can be extracted from them and the Russians can then take away these, still intact, intact rods. Truly amazing technology. And all under the nose of those incompetent IAEA inspectors.

Prabu · Post by **Prabu** » 11 Oct 2008 18:41

Its a fair deal given the current political environment and defenitely a possitive step ! Its up to the Indian leadership to with stand all (forth coming) spins and do nuclear business strictly in our own terms ! !!

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 11 Oct 2008 19:09

Yes it looks like the NPAs have given up on India, but a few of them are in their death throes. Jeffry Lewis on ACW has given up on India as well. Their only chance is if Obama is elected who will push the CTBT and NPT all over again.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 11 Oct 2008 19:46

Naah I do not like the part where Pranab says that India is bound by the agreed text. What the reason to amplify that, isn't agreement all about that. Is he saying that this deal has castarated India and even though in fututre some other government comes in, they cannot undo some of its provision?
And now they are pushing Sankya Vahini. I mean give me a break, the only thing this government is not doing is taking a loudspeaker and announcing nilami of India in redfor maidan. Some of the supporters here can go and bid. I mean that the newclear deal is done, this would be good use of the cash.
rgds,
fanne

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 11 Oct 2008 21:14

On this day, I hope one can remember the days of June and early July this year, Sitaram Yechury went around telling journalists "Samajhdar ko ishaara hi kaafi hai!"! and when Karat was playing the emperor without portfolio and threatening to pull down the government at the drop of a hat, when journos were running around trying to get every word of what Karat or Yechury or Badhan or D. Raja, etc used to say.

I hope these gentlemen eat crow today!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Oct 2008 21:22

They also had a role. As I said before all are in it. if there wasn't the daily fear of the MMS govt's collapse the deal would have been more harsh and unfavorable. So in politics never kick an opponent who might turn out useful in the long run.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 11 Oct 2008 21:25

ramana wrote:They also had a role. As I said before all are in it. if there wasn't the daily fear of the MMS govt's collapse the deal would have been more harsh and unfavorable. So in politics never kick an opponent who might turn out useful in the long run.

Even a Weak PM has usefulness in the long run.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 11 Oct 2008 21:27

Pakistan takes a swipe at US-India nuclear deal

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Oct 2008 21:28

Yes I said before this deal could be pulled by MMS alone. I see no politician who could have pulled this at this stage of competence of the elite.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 11 Oct 2008 21:40

ramana wrote:Yes I said before this deal could be pulled by MMS alone. I see no politician who could have pulled this at this stage of competence of the elite.

My opinion is that it is not about MMS but about this group which negotiated the deal. They are the first post independence born generation.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 11 Oct 2008 21:45

Ramana garu,
You are in the nuclear field and you have read a lot on both the side of the story. Why don't you post a 10 liner (not 1 liner), an honest post (not cryptic or politically correct) and spell out the details. Feel free to point out the grey area that even you do not know/understand either because of lack of knowledge or because it has been deliberately kept that way. That way it would be helpful for all of us.
Thanks,
fanne

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 11 Oct 2008 22:05

ramana wrote:They also had a role. As I said before all are in it. if there wasn't the daily fear of the MMS govt's collapse the deal would have been more harsh and unfavorable. So in politics never kick an opponent who might turn out useful in the long run.

Sure they, as well as the BJP, played a role in convincing the Americans and others, that MMS did not have much of a leeway to offer too many concessions, an impression which helped.

The Left however had planned on forcing the Govt to ditch this deal, not on the Govt. getting a better bargain. It got through only by the skin of the teeth. So any gratitude to the Left may be misplaced. As far as I am concerned, they acted in a very anti-national way, and sincerely hope they get a thrashing in the upcoming general elections.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 11 Oct 2008 23:41

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/ameri ... 14365.html

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 11 Oct 2008 23:47

RajeshA wrote:
ramana wrote:They also had a role. As I said before all are in it. if there wasn't the daily fear of the MMS govt's collapse the deal would have been more harsh and unfavorable. So in politics never kick an opponent who might turn out useful in the long run.
Sure they, as well as the BJP, played a role in convincing the Americans and others, that MMS did not have much of a leeway to offer too many concessions, an impression which helped.

Correct.

The Left however had planned on forcing the Govt to ditch this deal, not on the Govt. getting a better bargain. It got through only by the skin of the teeth. So any gratitude to the Left may be misplaced. As far as I am concerned, they acted in a very anti-national way, and sincerely hope they get a thrashing in the upcoming general elections.

One will never know till many years later what the proportion of their behaviour for "good cop bad cop role" and political greed for their action.

As I see it every idiot had a useful role in coming this far.