Internal Security Watch

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sugriva
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by sugriva »

Sanku wrote: Lalu and Raj are in this together; along with Congress. They are trying to do the same nonsense on their ends. This has nothing to do with regionalism.

Any "movement" can be artificially created given enough levers (and there's a long list) -- the question is who is going to stop it?
I think one of our piskological problems, atleast of the class of people who get to post at a place like BRF is that we are too cynical. We seem to think that politics is the end all and be all of all issues in this country. I would urge that we re-evaluate our positions. There cannot be smoke without fire.

The issue that I pointed out will not go away by damning Raj and Lalu. Yes they are both playing politics. One has threated to stop trains wherever railway property or passengers are hurt. If thats not regional baiting that what is. Lalu probably doesnt realize that if push came to shove then the Biharis are in for a gob-smacking in Maharashtra and no i'm not a maharashtrian who's saying this. The daily wage earner bhaiyyaji in Mumbai needs to be protected. That won't happen by creating an us vs them fight. Remove one of the reasons for the hurt and maybe people will calm down. I know that by suggesting this some will say that we are appeasing the monsters aka Chamberlain with Hitler, but no sir, Biharis are not Englanders and Marathis are not Nazis.
Lalmohan
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by Lalmohan »

both sides are playing politics, but both sides could play positive politics instead of negative... how about agitation to improve and not to destroy?

and lets be honest about the generalisation band wagon here, we've had weeks of bongs==commies on a nearby thread, why not a ghatis==nazis equal equal?

and the sena above almost all other regional parties have long had a strongly negative thuggish approach to politics, there will be no improvement for the 'marathi manus' unless this changes to a more positive outlook
Sanku
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by Sanku »

vera_k wrote:
Singha wrote:could it be (cough cough) that good number of people in east UP/bihar
are living under zamindari system and are effectively landless sharecroppers?
Someone with local knowledge of UP and Bihar should confirm if this is true. Many years ago my grandfather used to rail about how post independence land reforms were stymied in Bihar, UP and AP when compared to Maharashtra. If there is truth to this another round of reforms to distribute land to landless people in these states may help matters.
The avg land holding in Bihar today is smaller than that in other regions; the land ceiling act was successfully implemented along with Bhudan movement. In addition the division of property among the many children in a rapidly rising population has ensured that most land holdings are meager to the extent of being non-self sustaining for even a single family. This among so called "higher castes"

There are no haves from the land any more (there are other kind of haves mostly by siphoning Govt money) of course there are many who have even much less, but land distribution is not going to work any more.
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by Sanku »

Lalmohan wrote:and the sena above almost all other regional parties have long had a strongly negative thuggish approach to politics, there will be no improvement for the 'marathi manus' unless this changes to a more positive outlook
Bang On.
Tanaji
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by Tanaji »

and lets be honest about the generalisation band wagon here, we've had weeks of bongs==commies on a nearby thread, why not a ghatis==nazis equal equal?
Hasn't that more to do with who got elected in W. Bengal for what period since Independance? While not all Bengalis support the communists, it is true that they have been ruling for the longest in W. Bengal. Hence the (misplaced) equivalence. How does ghatis == nazis come to play now? How many times has MNS been elected? How many times has Shiv sena enjoyed power? Once!

BTW, I invoke Godwin on this one.
Manu
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by Manu »

A relevant Article, I think: (Posted without Comment)
Link
The economics that drives the politics of Raj Thackeray
M R Venkatesh | October 29, 2008

Draw a line between Chennai and Chandigarh. Seven out of the eight IPL cricket teams are on the line or to the 'Right' of this line. The only team that is to the 'Left' of this line, expectedly, is the Kolkatha team. And when the IPL will be expanded in the following seasons, one can readily think of teams from Ahmadabad, Nagpur, Goa, Kochi or perhaps Vadodara - all to the 'Right' of my imaginary line.

But to conceive of an IPL team from say Lucknow or Patna or Bhubaneswar - all to the 'Left' of my line even after ten years from now is as remote as snow in Chennai. The reference to IPL teams, at the outset, is to merely sensitise the reader to the issue on hand - growing regional (economic) disparity and its impact on national politics. After all, sport is an index of prosperity, isn't it?

While India had grown for the past three decades at approximately six per cent per annum, states like Gujarat, Tamil Nadu and Maharashtra which are to the 'Right' of this line grew much faster rate than the national average. In contrast, states like Bihar, UP and Bengal - those on the 'Left' of this line grew lower than the national average. In the process, they did pull down the national average substantially.

What is interesting to note here is that in contrast to the 'North-South' divide as propounded by Raj Thacakery and his brand of politics, this is an 'East-West' problem or better still a 'Right-Left' problem.

Economists point out that this regional disparity has reached a stage where the per capita income of Punjab is five times that of say Bihar. No wonder , out of the 150 Naxal hit districts of the country, constituting about 25 per cent of all districts in the country, virtually each one of them are to the 'Left' of my imaginary line.

This is not limited to income alone. On social indices like health, education and infant mortality, a state like Gujarat which seems to have caught up with at-least the South East Asia is no match for a state like say Bengal or Orissa.

The lower growth rate in 'Left' India, the relatively poorer quality of governance, the appalling state of infrastructure, social indices that match sub-Saharan Africa, growing Naxal menace leading to severe law and order problems have lead to the inevitable and consequential migration of people from these place to the other parts of the country.

It is the failure of policy framers to address the regional disparity that is providing fuel to the politics of Raj Thacakery and his ilk. Raj is clearly wrong in his choice of words, expressions and actions. Similarly, by mixing culture perhaps he is missing the woods for the trees.

But surely, he is not wrong with his larger idea. Sooner or later the nation needs to answer the profound questions raised by Raj - for how long can we permit one way migration from a set of states to others in search of jobs?

The bumble bee paradigm

According to the established laws of physics, a bumble bee cannot fly. Physicists insist that the body of a bumble bee is not by nature aerodynamic and hence conducive to flying. Yet the fact of the matter is that the bumble bee flies. The only explicable reason provided by physicists is that the bumble bee does not understand the law of physics established by them and hence is not constrained by it! Obviously, had the bumble bee understood physics, it would never fly.

Perhaps a similar analogy could be extended to the success of people to the 'Right' of my imaginary line. A difficult terrain - most of this area is parched or semi-arid - makes agriculture difficult in this area. Similarly, this area cannot boast of any substantial mineral wealth.

Similarly, this area is neither suitable for setting up industries or agriculture, except in patches. Like the bumble bee, people of this area have really discarded theory and have gone on to write their own grammar of economic success.

In contrast, it may be noticed that most of the perennial rivers flow through the left of this line. Naturally, the Gangetic plain is one of the most fertile places for agriculture in India. This flow of perennial rivers make is further blessed by copious rains year after year making it theoretically possible for this place to become the granary for entire India.

Further, most of India's mineral wealth is located to the left of this line. All these factors combine to make this area an ideal place for business, trade or agriculture in India. Like their counterparts to the other side of the line, people here too have rejected all these theories. No wonder, extortion is one of the biggest industries in Bihar!

In effect, India to the 'Right' of my imaginary line is comparatively (and that is the operative word here) more industrialised, far better governed and enjoys a higher level of human development indices than India to the 'Left' of this line. That explains in a way the shift of Nano factory of Tata motors [Get Quote] from West Bengal to Gujarat.

Caste in economics, caste in politics

The answer to this contrasting development, achieved by people who are blessed in every possible way and those who are not, is indeed fascinating to say the least. How is it possible that in two distinct areas within a same country, governed by the same set of laws, rules and regulations, one is more relatively more prosperous than the other, especially given the fact that the latter has more natural resources?

The answer to this conundrum is perhaps as intriguing as the conundrum itself. It may not out of place to mention that the linkages between caste and economics (as they are with politics) are one of the most neglected aspects of economic and sociological studies in India.

The reason for the same is fairly obvious. Most economic theories in India are rooted in economic theories of the West. Since there is no caste in the west :roll: , western economists have the luxury of ignoring the impact of caste in their studies. But how can any one in India ignore caste, be it economic or politics?

Caste has been an important instrument of change in modern India. People to the 'Left' of this line - say in Bihar or UP have naturally associated caste with politics with an obvious belief that capturing political power through caste equations would deliver and emancipate them.

Naturally, politicians from these areas believe in portfolios like Railways, fertilisers or for that matter coal and mines that would facilitate them to deliver largesse to their own constituency through governmental interventions.

In a way caste in politics becomes important here. Politics and state power is sadly seen as an end in itself. This meant that private initiative was exterminated over the years in these states making virtually everyone dependent on government for employment

In contrast, people to the 'Right' of this line have traditionally leveraged their caste affiliations, not for capturing state power, but for strengthening their economics. Naturally, for these people caste is important for furthering their economic interests, while capturing state power through caste is incidental.

Bihar, UP or for that matter West Bengal cannot be exceptions to the global order of governments being incapable of delivering on growth and development. And having to this day believed that it is the government that would fully deliver on their growth and development, people to the 'Left' of this line are now caught in a bind.

Liberalised India, which unlike socialist India offers limited scope for the government itself. Naturally that translates into limited job opportunities. As opportunities shrink, naturally their tone gets shriller. That would explain the fixation with Railway recruitment, which provides for opportunities not only within their state but in others too.

It is this excessive reliance on the power of the government to deliver ignoring the natural resources and ability that has been at the root of the current problem in 'Left' India. Naturally, fifty per cent of our population living in this area have a choice to turn in Naxalites or to become an immigrant within the country. Either way it is not a happy situation as it puts extraordinary pressure on the rest of the country.

In effect, caste with politics in the absence of economics has been a wholesome disaster for some of these states while caste in economics with marginal assistance from politics has been a wholesome success. In effect, the present imbroglio is an issue between castes who have taken to politics and those who have taken to economics.

The only way out is rapid build up of confidence of business and businessmen in Bihar and UP and to ensure indigenous businesses in Bihar. Economic prosperity in these places must be ensured by local businesses, not by outsiders or their government.

Since it is a superhuman effort and cannot be done by ordinary mortals, will Laloo and Mulayam - the two caste leaders of these two states and considered supermen by their respective followers - give up politics and take to business? In the process they could do a world of good to India economics and to Indian politics.


PS: While the law of the land could well punish Raj, who will punish these politicians who have kept 'Left' India poor and created the problem in the first place?

The author is a Chennai-based Chartered Accountant. He can be contacted at [email protected]
R_Kumar
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by R_Kumar »

One thing I don't understand that when it comes to cast politics, only Bihar and U.P are highlighted.
How people forgot recent Karnatka election where cast politics was at the best .
This cast politics are present in every corner of India. Of-course there are some exceptions.

Comparing Punjab and Bihar is like compaing orange and apple. In Bihar most of the farmers are very poor and due to higher population density no one has enough land. So uneducated people are forced to migrate to some other states.

I haven't done any research so I would like to know the opinion of experts that why Bihar and U.P don't have industries?
sugriva
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by sugriva »

I haven't done any research so I would like to know the opinion of experts that why Bihar and U.P don't have industries?
I'm no expert but let me give my hypothesis here. I think it has to do with
(i) land in UP/Bihar being very fertile. 2-3 rice/wheat crops a year.
(ii) huge population density.
In short there is a land scarcity for industries and an attempt to give away land for industries would be met with resistance.

Contrast this with Maharashtra and Gujarat, with vast tracts of poor quality soil. Hence the reason for more industries being there. Also the weather gods are kinder to Maharashtra and Gujarat. No yearly floods or torrential downpours. All in all good for industrialization.
ManuT
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by ManuT »

I disagree with the proposition that the issue MNS (& SS) are raising here is about a few Class III & IV jobs in Maharastra that are going to outsiders from Bihar & UP. The issues that have been raised are of pure Xenophobia. (Traditionally this would have meant, fear of foreigners, but in this case we are talking about internal Xenophobia)

As I understand it the issues are:
1. Objection to ‘Chat pooja’ by the North Indians.
2. Objection to UP diwas and Bihar diwas in Maharastra.
3. Plight of Marathi language, theatre, culture, identity.
4. Institutionalizing discrimination in favour of local Marathi. All ‘outsiders’ to play second fiddle to local Maharastrians.
5. Stoppage of Migrants because of overcrowding.

This is dangerous. This is a direct assault on India. What is point of India as a united country if there is no freedom of movement of goods, services and people within its internal border. For this reason, alone Article 370 needs to be repealed. The domicile clause needs to be abolished as it is a source of discrimination and also there is a need abolish the need for a permit to go to NE. Only then, we will succeed in integration.

Yes, Bihar and UP are a mess today because of bad governance, but do you know any good ‘Sardar jokes’. During militancy in Punjab those jokes became ‘Jat jokes’ (Just avoid them). (Or Gulti jokes for that matter, depending upon the audience). The point I am trying to make is, once you start on a start, it gets very slippery very quickly.
India has 2 potentials one the progressive India, ‘Man on moon’ India the other as the land of 100,000 Kosovos. If we allow MNS –SS and other divisive politics to set the agenda, it will lead to the end of India as we know it. We have to stand as one, divided we WILL FALL. The politics of the Indian sub-continent will start to look like the Arab World.

Coming to the issues that I know of MNS.
1. Do they celeberate Ganesh festival only in Maharastra. It is well known, that on the same date different parts of India celeberate different festivals, even though the essence is the same. So, why object to Chat pooja, which is a Hindu religious ceremony.
2. Have we heard of ‘Mitra Mandals’ outside Maharastra, in India and also outside India. Have we looked into the activities that they do. You’ll be so surprised. And I do see Indians celeberating Independence Day outside India unfurling Indian Flag in public places. I do see people of Indian origin in South Africa waving the Indian flag.
3. Have we looked into the plight of Hindi language (after Premchand), theatre. It is the same as Marathi. Also, Where would the ‘outsourcing’ and ‘call centre’ business be with Marathi or Hindi
4. Apartheid
5. With this logic, well Kashmiris refugees that came to Delhi, escaping from J&K will have to go back to Kashmir. I see them buying houses in Delhi, drawing salary for Service in Kashmir. Punjabi refugees from partition will have to vacate Delhi, because they changed ‘the original demographic composition of Delhi’ and ‘have corrupted Delhi’ .
---
Fyi, It takes me a while to respond.
Singha
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by Singha »

abolish the need for a permit to go to NE

about freaking time. these inner line permits are a congress invention
and can only be obtained in distt hq's like tezpur during office hrs on
weekdays before onward trip into A.P.

A.P. would be a yuppie tourist destination like Sikkim is today
if they developed Tezpur and Dibrugarh as the airheads and ran
tours from there into the A.P right upto places like tezu, pasighat,
ziro, tawang, itanagar, bomdi-la etc.

instead the people are forced to beg for rice and medicines from
the army detachments :evil:

keeping people deliberately poor is a indian innovation.
ramana
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by ramana »

Also UP and Bihar, being the land where 1857 war was fought, suffered grievously and the social structure was deeply uprooted. Military garrison towns/cantonments were built all over the place. Rapacious zamindars were installed to collect the revenue by force. And don't forget this region bore the brunt of the Delhi Sultanate and Mughal rule and latter minor Nawabi zabardasti. Prior to that in the interregnum between Muslim rule and Harsha's rule was another fine mess. So its not entirely docile or tranquil area. Then the JP Narayan revolution and VP Singh Mandalization was unleashed to complete the process.

However one should not forget that this region is the well springs of the Indian civilization. And its from here that bhagawat against oppressive foreign rule always came about- violently or non violently.
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by sum »

A long but interesting article about the communal history of Bhatkal:
Bhatkal gets new terror tag

Sagnik Chowdhury Posted: Oct 30, 2008 at 0909 hrs IST

Bhatkal, October 30: : The Terror trail left by two of its residents — Riyaz and Iqbal — might have propelled Bhatkal, a port town in Uttara Kannada district of Karnataka, from relative obscurity to the latest hotspot in the country’s terror map, but a strong undercurrent of communal tension has been simmering under the surface for over a decade. Indeed, the origins of the town’s latest tryst with terror are to be found in its local politics, demography and repeated incidents of communal violence during this period.

While locals here struggle to come to terms with the new terror tag thrust on them, and are visibly annoyed with the posse of journalists who have started showing up at their doorsteps, Bhatkal’s problems are by no means new.

A communally sensitive town, it has witnessed several instances of communal strife in the past that have created a highly polarised population. Clashes between the local Nawayath Muslims and the Bajrang Dal, which enjoys political clout in this coastal belt, have often led to riots, murders and political assassinations. Local minority leaders accept that “a frustration of political ambitions of the Muslim community” and “a wayward and aggressive younger generation” have created a highly charged atmosphere in which reconciliation seems impossible, and innocuous incidents serve as flash points for communal carnage.

In 1993, shortly after Mumbai burned in riots and suffered its first serial blasts, Bhatkal was rocked by riots for nine months and communal politics arrived there to stay. According to police records, 17 persons were murdered, 90 injured, 226 houses burnt and 143 shops looted. The riots were sparked off on April Fool’s Day, when a stone was reportedly hurled at a Ram Navami procession.

“Ever since the 1993 riots, Bhatkal has always been a very communally sensitive town, and it is a big challenge to police it. There is a sharp divide between the Muslims and the Hindus here, and communally motivated crimes have taken place on several occasions in the past. However, we have managed to establish control in the area, and have ensured that law and order is maintained,” says Superintendent of Police (Uttara Kannada), M B Nanjundappa.

There are two police stations in Bhatkal, with a force of 30 police personnel each. Tension was at a high after a sitting BJP MLA, U Chittaranjan, was shot dead by two unknown assailants on April 10, 1996. In a retaliatory attack, two Nawayath Muslim Bhatkal youth were stoned and stabbed to death. Eight years later, while canvassing for the Assembly elections, BJP leader Thimmappa Naik was murdered, leading to another backlash.

Recalling another communally charged incident, Sister Ancilla, the headmistress of Anand Ashram Convent School, says, “In December 1999, a skit was staged in the school, and the local Muslims took exception to the depiction of Prophet Mohammed in it. They immediately withdrew 700 Muslim students who were enrolled here. However, most of them were sent back by their parents later.”

Over the years, there has been talk of ISI-sponsored communal violence in Bhatkal, though it has been denied by the police and local administration.

“Following the 1993 riots, the state Government set up a commission under retired Supreme Court Justice Kedambaddi Jagannath Shetty to probe the violence. Although the report was never tabled in the Assembly, its findings are out in the public domain and were reported in the media. It stated that Bhatkal was a communally sensitive area in which the ISI was covertly operating through its agents, and that Dawood Ibrahim was providing assistance for the same. “In my search for justice, I had met L K Advani in New Delhi in 2004, and had told him that the ISI was active in Bhatkal, and that Terror bases were being set up in the coastal strip in areas like Bhatkal, Ullal and Malappuram,” says cardiologist Dr U Rajesh Bhat, son of murdered MLA Chittaranjan.

A probe committee’s report on Chittaranjan’s death is yet to be tabled by the Government. The CBI, which investigated the matter sought to close the case till Bhat challenged it in court. Vernacular newspapers in the district have started linking Riyaz Bhatkal to Chittaranjan’s murder, suggesting that he was one of the assailants. “As far as ISI activities in Bhatkal are concerned, we have not received any intelligence inputs to suggest so. Since the Jagannath Shetty report has not been made public, I am not privy to what has been stated in it. The possible existence of a terror network in the region is being investigated, and several police teams from other states are camping in Bhatkal to get leads,” says Nanjundappa.

Much of the terror tag is associated with the lineage of the Nawayaths, who trace their roots to the Hadramout region of south Yemen — to which Osama Bin Laden’s ancestry is also linked. The Nawayaths were born out of marriages between Jain or Konkani women with Arab traders who landed on these shores in the 8th century. The community’s links with the Arab world are strong to this day, with a majority of Nawayath men having migrated to the Gulf for employment, leaving behind their wives and children. Heavy flow of money and imported goods from Dubai has also brought the region under the scanner of security agencies.

Reports of an official probe lending credence to claims of Pakistan-sponsored Terror recruitment have added fuel to the fire by embittering local Muslims, points out D H Shabbar, a Nawayath Muslim leader of the Congress.


“We are going through a tough time and the cause of all this is nothing but vote-bank politics that has divided the two communities. We have been targeted time and again. Even if the terrorism claims are true, we are more sinned against than sinned,” says Shabbar emphatically.

“Before land reforms, the Muslims were land owners in this area and Hindus were our tenants. By 1919 we had established the Anjuman Hami-e-Muslimeen, our first educational institution. Several others were established in due course and at present, we have 21 colleges and schools with 7,500 students. During British rule, there were no Hindu educational institutions here. After the British left, the land-owning Muslim held political power here. With Hindu schools and colleges being set up, the Hindus also starting having political ambitions and a spirit of competition arose,” he explains.

The Sangh Parivar’s ascendancy in the constituency began in 1983 with the defeat of Nawayath leader S M Yahya, who was a Karnataka minister from 1972 to 1982. “This was when the political rift began. The Sangh Parivar, in collusion with the local media, polarised the society and this was manifested in the 1993 riots. Today, the numbers are so highly stacked against us that we cannot hope to turn the tide. This has frustrated the political ambition of the younger generation of Muslims,” says Shabbar. According to elderly Nawayaths like Shabbar, the younger lot have often been ‘wayward’, unemployed and poorly educated owing to the financial success of their fathers in the Gulf.

Echoing his sentiments, Kazia Muzammil, president of Bhatkal Tanzeem, says, “We are asking more and more Muslim youth to come forward for posts in different wings of the Government machinery so that they feel that they are stakeholders in the society.”

The common Muslim local like Zaqir Hussain, who runs a grocery store on Sultan Street vent their ire at the BJP Government in the state. “The talk of our boys being involved in the blasts is totally false. The police may come and pick up any Muslim man here, and we cannot say anything against it as the Government does not care,” says Hussain. While setting up industries within municipal limits is practically impossible, establishment of projects such as a major pipe factory planned on the outskirts has faced opposition from the Bajrang Dal, which owns a majority of the land there. Everyday opposition by the Bajrang Dal to cows being transported to the town for slaughter by Muslims has also been a major bone of contention....
Despite obvious attempt at sympathy towards the local muslims of Bhatkal in the article, most of the incidents seem to have been started and kindled by them. Also, what sort of attitude is shown when a guy says: our boys might be anti-national but they have been sinned more against than they sinned!!?? :roll: :roll:
Even the sense of having lost their lordship after independence(similar to the Mughal era delusions like in the UP-cow belt muslims) seems to be very strong. All the grievances cited by the muslims interviewed only focus on that!!
All in all, a very heady cocktail waiting to explode.
Yayavar
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by Yayavar »

ramana wrote:Also UP and Bihar, being the land where 1857 war was fought, suffered grievously and the social structure was deeply uprooted. Military garrison towns/cantonments were built all over the place. Rapacious zamindars were installed to collect the revenue by force. And don't forget this region bore the brunt of the Delhi Sultanate and Mughal rule and latter minor Nawabi zabardasti. Prior to that in the interregnum between Muslim rule and Harsha's rule was another fine mess. So its not entirely docile or tranquil area. Then the JP Narayan revolution and VP Singh Mandalization was unleashed to complete the process.

However one should not forget that this region is the well springs of the Indian civilization. And its from here that bhagawat against oppressive foreign rule always came about- violently or non violently.
Thanks for stating the above. I'm not from these states but have often found myself defending UP/Bihar/Bengal -- Chandrasekhar Azad, is the name that comes to my mind often along with the thousands who struggled through Independence and Emergency. It is the ' desh jahan Ganga behti hai'.

Manu is right in calling Raj T. behaviour as nothing but Xenophobia. Unfortunately the better folks too, due to regional pride fall prey to this negative sentiment.
Singha
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by Singha »

7 blasts in Assam. 4 in guwahati. 5 dead so far.

as usual one was in ganeshguri market near the capital complex.
R_Kumar
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by R_Kumar »

sugriva wrote: I'm no expert but let me give my hypothesis here. I think it has to do with
(i) land in UP/Bihar being very fertile. 2-3 rice/wheat crops a year.
(ii) huge population density.
In short there is a land scarcity for industries and an attempt to give away land for industries would be met with resistance.

Contrast this with Maharashtra and Gujarat, with vast tracts of poor quality soil. Hence the reason for more industries being there. Also the weather gods are kinder to Maharashtra and Gujarat. No yearly floods or torrential downpours. All in all good for industrialization.
This may explain part of it.
But what about south Bihar(now Jharkhand)? I believe Jharkhand isn't as highly populated as rest of the Bihar. On top of that, it is full of natural resources.

I think one of the reasons may be the Zamindari . But then, Zamindari was all over India.
In last 30 years while many states have been going up, Bihar has been going down. So in a way Bihar leaders from the last 30 years are responsible for its current poor state.

If Bihar government can bring back the law and order under control and improve infrastructure (Road and electricity), i am sure industries will start coming to Bihar. But its a big IF.
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by Philip »

When Indians migrate all over the globe in search of better economic opportunities,it is absurd to try and prevent any Indian from travelling across India in search of a better life! In fact the cheap labour from the least developed states of India are helping he more prosperous states with their own labour shortages.The construction industry in Maharashtra cannot do with out external labour.Raj T is simply racist for his own personal benefit and appeakling to the tribal and communal (in the "commune" aspect of the word) roots of ordinary Indians,who usually trace their ancestry from a village or town in their native state.The "gaonwallah" syndrome which exists in a social sense is now being given political and communal overtones thanks to the new "Raj".

Here is the "completely disillusioned " editor of Outlook ,Vinodh Mehta,on the current scenario.
http://www.outlookindia.com/diary.asp?fodname=20081103

"Is this a serious political party or a joke? This alleged Congress chamcha is completely disillusioned!"

Yours, Disillusioned

Is this the biggest national crisis the country has faced since Independence? I believe it is. Because all our woes have come together. We have Hindu-Muslim riots. We have Hindu-Christian riots. We have homegrown jehadi terrorism. We have homegrown Hindu terrorism—although on a much smaller scale. Add to that the economic meltdown, the crash of the Sensex coupled with double-digit inflation and India’s cup of grief runneth over. In my lifetime I have never known national morale to be as low as it is today.
In the past, communal riots struck India singly. You either had Hindu-Muslim strife or Hindu-Christian. Never as a secular state did we have to face this poison simultaneously. Homegrown Islamic terrorism is possibly an even bigger threat. We could, in the past, comfort ourselves with the belief that all Islamic terrorism came from across the border. That comfort level is no longer available. The Indian Mujahideen are our own boys nurtured, educated and sensitised by our own democracy. Their ability to strike at will is at once frightening and inexplicable. No one in our security establishment has any idea of how big these organisations are, where they are located, how they are funded, how they operate, what is their command structure. It is not surprising, therefore, that the odd arrest or killing of one militant has no effect on the murderous capability of the organisations.

The Congress, no surprise, is getting the worst of both worlds. The Hindus think the party practises votebank politics. The Muslims think the Congress targets them unfairly while ignoring Hindu terrorist groups. Ordinarily, I would sympathise with the Congress predicament. In the current scenario, I don’t. If the party finds itself between a rock and a hard place, it is a self-inflicted wound. The Congress response has been so confusing, so un-nuanced and so unsophisticated that its own workers are not sure what the party’s stand is.

Just look at the Congress reaction to the Jamia Nagar encounter. It has taken multiple positions. Yes, it was a fake encounter; yes, it was a genuine encounter with two dreaded terrorists killed; yes, it seems highly suspicious; yes, we need a judicial inquiry; yes, we should let the law take its own course and suspend judgement.

Is this a serious political party or a joke? This alleged Congress chamcha is completely disillusioned!
R_Kumar
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by R_Kumar »

See, how conveniently the word "Hindu Terrorist" have become common word in "secular media". And it happened in just a week time after couple of arrest.
I am curious why we are not getting any details other than arrest news. I hope it doesn't go like Arushi murder case.
When this case will go to court?
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by Vivek Sreenivasan »

Wasent the bengal area by far the richest in India at the time of establishment of the East India company in Kolkata? What has happened?
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by sugriva »

Vivek Sreenivasan wrote:Wasent the bengal area by far the richest in India at the time of establishment of the East India company in Kolkata? What has happened?
A few centuries of rapine and land tax gathering coupled with a few score artificial famines broke the back of the Bengal area forever. It still hasn't recovered from that. What was once the bread basket of the subcontinent in Mughal times, has today (the entire area of Bihar, Bengal and Bangladesh) become a basket case.
vera_k
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by vera_k »

ramana wrote:Also UP and Bihar, being the land where 1857 war was fought, suffered grievously and the social structure was deeply uprooted. Military garrison towns/cantonments were built all over the place. Rapacious zamindars were installed to collect the revenue by force. And don't forget this region bore the brunt of the Delhi Sultanate and Mughal rule and latter minor Nawabi zabardasti. Prior to that in the interregnum between Muslim rule and Harsha's rule was another fine mess. So its not entirely docile or tranquil area. Then the JP Narayan revolution and VP Singh Mandalization was unleashed to complete the process.

However one should not forget that this region is the well springs of the Indian civilization. And its from here that bhagawat against oppressive foreign rule always came about- violently or non violently.
If India is finding its feet today it is because of progress on the economic and social front in states other than UP and Bihar.

Whether for political or social reasons these states are exporting division and causing resentment in the rest of India be it in the form of Hindi imposition, Mandal or Ayodhya.

Question is what can be done now to help these states focus on development instead of divisive issues? Perhaps a longish stint of Central rule coupled with heavy spending on development and Central guarantees for investors starting businesses in these states is required.
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by Rye »

vera_k wrote:
Question is what can be done now to help these states focus on development instead of divisive issues? Perhaps a longish stint of Central rule coupled with heavy spending on development and Central guarantees for investors starting businesses in these states is required.
The problem with UP and Bihar is the criminal political class like Lalu, Mulayam, Amar Singh, Mayawati, Paswan -- they will destroy their states for their personal political benefit as they have already demonstrated. President's rule in both these states for a few years to clean up all the violent criminals and terrorists and maoists in UP and Bihar sounds like a good idea. UP should really be partitioned into smaller states, as it has too much power over the rest of India, in spite of being septic tank of India, in terms of social malcontents and jihadi groups running loose. But such partitioning can only happen after it becomes more of a "normal" state.
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by fanne »

By God!! Hidden racism (or is it regional superiority complex a disguise mainly for inferiority complex) of some members is mind boggling. I guess I am waiting for some members to come out and say kill all Biharis and Upites!!
Common guys, get a grip and your disgust of fellow Indian (and no backwardness of these folks is not the cause of that disgust it’s a mere excuse) shows, you are not good at hiding it. Before you become too discredited, please stop this nonsense.
Thanks,
fanne
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by Vivek K »

Couldn't agree with fanne more. By the same logic that vera_k has used, Americans would be right in killing Mexicans or other immigrants? Are they then not right to complain about out-sourcing and the export of cheap labor from Mexico to the US.

Raj Thackeray's actions are detestable to say the least. To stoop down so low in order to win a political battle using an issue that is causing the deaths of innocent civilians is reprehensible. And it seems that he has fallen lower than people like Mulayam Singh and Laloo as he is playing with the very bonds of integration for his personal political gains.
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by Rye »

To be clear, all I am saying in previous post is: "UP and Bihar are being governed very poorly since independence". Because of poor political leadership in UP and Bihar, the people in those states have to depart elsewhere in India to earn their livelihood. Nowhere has the violent behaviour of the MNS numbnuts been justified or endorsed.
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by ramana »

Meanwhile in dilli

What can I do? PM tells Cabinet

Most likely Mumbai CM is the moneybags for INC. But UPA is feeling the heat if one goes by the names printed.
R_Kumar
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by R_Kumar »

ramana wrote:Meanwhile in dilli

What can I do? PM tells Cabinet

Most likely Mumbai CM is the moneybags for INC. But UPA is feeling the heat if one goes by the names printed.
Minor attack on churches in the retaliation of the abuses thrown by Evangelist prompted MMS to use 355 in Karnataka?
What happened now?
Rye
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by Rye »

Admins, could I please request deletion of my previous two posts in Bihar/UP on this thread and this one. Thanks.
Muppalla
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by Muppalla »

huh, people doesn't have patience. That seems to be the main problem. All they need is a good leader for one or two terms in UP and Bihar and it will turn good. The southern states went for services industries and Gujarat/Maharastra has gone for capital industires. They are suddenly looking good.

Bihar and UP has a lot of public sector and unfortunately since the 90s they do not have good leadership like as compared to Gujarat, AP, Maharastra and karnataka to do structural and economic reforms to compete and get projects for them. In the old economic model of India, the government used to decide where to start a plant and they haven't jumped to new competetive model.

Remove Bombay and Pune, Maharastra also will look like Bihar and too much stupid noise is being madeout.

Go back to 80s and 90s and you will find more non-Biharis in cities like Bokaro, Jamshedpur etc. Even today if you visit any Railway divison cities of Bihar, I bet you will see a substantial population of non-Biharis.
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by Manu »

I want to highlight the complete fiasco/charade that is being conducted by UPA goons to invent "Hindu Terrorists". None exist now, but they soon will (and probably should, if the Law and Order continues to fail under the present political dispensation). What is happening in Malegaon case is a 100% charade.

Pioneer
The media {That should be the Resident, Non-Indian Media} loves bogeys. First they are created; then, promoted; and finally bashed. In the last week one such bogey was discovered. With the vocal assistance of a section of the political class, it was assiduously promoted. Parliament being in session, the hype got further fillip. And almost immediately the bashing began.

It's a bogey the media has been trying to nurture for some months now. But they had failed to make headway in the absence of any supporting evidence. This line of thought was first propagated when the Malegaon blasts took place last year killing 37 people outside a mosque. A section of the media loudly wondered why jihadi terrorists would specifically target their co-religionists and suggestively hinted at the possibility of Hindu groups coming under the investigators' scanner.

But soon the case was cracked and it was authoritatively billed as a SIMI handiwork. But the secular-fundamentalists did not give up. They waited for two crude bombs to explode in Gujarat's Modasa and once again in Malegaon. This time, the Maharashtra Police obliged. Under fire for handling Raj Thackeray's rampaging goons in Mumbai with kid gloves, the authorities decided this was the most opportune time to selectively leak some sensitive information regarding the September 29, 2008 incidents. Howsoever far-fetched and tenuous the alleged suspects' links to the extended saffron parivar, the leaked news came in handy for the media to resume the onslaught on "Hindu terror".

Before we examine the ramifications of this allegation, it is important to understand the political motivation that guides the disproportionate attention paid to two crude bomb explosions last month. For a long time, the secular-fundamentalists and their cohorts in politics and the media have been agitating against the alleged stereotyping of Muslims as terrorists. That this too is a media-generated bogey is, of course, another matter. Nobody in their right minds has ever suggested that every Muslim is a terrorist, real or potential.

Indeed, there is consensus that Muslims are almost equal victims of jihadi terror as Hindus. There is also wide agreement that the Muslim community needs to be insulated from the evil influences of their Talibanised co-religionists and their leaders need to do more to combat jihadi ideology. It is only the opportunist practitioners of crass vote-bank politics -- Lalu Prasad, Ram Vilas Paswan, Amar Singh and their ilk -- that have engaged in stoking the fires of sectional Muslim angst over incidents like the arrest of mastermind Abu Bashar and the encounter at Batla House in Jamia Nagar. The Congress has unsuccessfully tried to hunt with the hound and run with the hare, but stopped short of endorsing the repugnant demand for revoking the ban on SIMI.

In the aftermath of the perfectly legitimate Jamia Nagar raid, there has been a systematic attempt to claim that the Indian Establishment is guilty of regarding every Muslim as a terrorist. This is precisely the premise on which the bogey of Hindu terrorism has been constructed. The argument is rather simplistic: The police and public are wrong in assuming all terror incidents to be executed by Muslim groups such as SIMI; that, new "revelations" suggest that many such terror attacks are the handiwork of Hindu outfits. So, Islamist terror must be treated on the same footing as 'Hindu terror'. So, if SIMI is banned, so must be Bajrang Dal, VHP, ABVP, RSS and, eventually, BJP.

That the Government will have neither the gumption nor evidence to do so is another matter. But repeated equation of Islamic and 'Hindu' terror is expected to sow doubts in people's minds and, hopefully, puncture the BJP's battering ram against the UPA regime, namely the Government's inability or unwillingness to combat jihadi terrorism.

It is a matter of time before it is suggested by this lobby that the Sangh Parivar is, in fact, the biggest progenitor of terror in India; that they are doing so with the aim of breeding mass insecurity in order to bamboozle terrified Hindus into voting for the BJP in the forthcoming polls! Evidence of 'Hindu terror' comprises only a few instances of alleged bomb-making by members of obscure groups, such as something called the Hindu Jan Jagran Manch. But that is hardly of consequence in the process of hyping this supposed phenomenon. The media has repeated ad nauseum that two Bajrang Dal activists got blown up while making bombs in Kanpur, deliberately overlooking the fact the persons had been expelled from the Dal 12 years ago and were probably involved in a conspiracy to settle scores with their tormentors in that organisation!

Had India not been a vibrant democracy and were Hinduism an intolerant faith, we would have witnessed many violent responses to jihadi terror. Most Hindus are unable to comprehend why groups like SIMI are going about massacring innocent civilians all over the country when they have no specific demand. Terrorist violence, whatever the cause, can never be condoned but in cases of foreign intervention (such as Iraq) or in the course of separatist movements, can at least be understood. But nobody can quite comprehend what SIMI and its cohorts want of the Indian people or the State.

Reams have been written about Muslim angst following the post-Godhra riots in Gujarat. But what about Hindu anger in response to the thousands of innocent people felled by jihadi bomb blasts over the last 15 years? Don't they have families that are battling for survival, orphans who have grown up bearing bloodthirsty rage against the killers of their parents or family? Doesn't it hurt their sense of justice when political parties rush to felicitate terrorists' families or join the chorus describing the Jamia Nagar encounter as fake and the December 13 Parliament attack a conspiracy by the Intelligence Bureau?

Is the average Indian so thick-skinned as to applaud Manmohan Singh when he says the first right to the country's scarce resources belongs not to the poor irrespective of caste and creed but only to Muslims? When anti-terror laws are diluted and vociferous demands for the lifting of the ban on SIMI reverberate through sections of the political class and the liberal-secular intelligentsia, should the victims of jihadi terror be expected to cower in fright? Isn't it then a miracle that vigilante groups aren't roaming the streets of our cities seeking revenge?

Those who equate imaginary Hindu terror with jihadi violence would do well to realise this odious comparison can only agitate people further, communalise the polity beyond redemption and unleash retribution on a scale not seen before.

The fact is that individual miscreants or petty bomb peddlers do not constitute anything like Hindu terror groups; they have no sympathy, at least yet, from the community. But stoked and insulted repeatedly, the tolerant and largely passive Hindu might just start justifying the actions of fringe groups. By nature, the Hindu can never be a terrorist. Secular-fundamentalists should not provoke him to a point where he seriously contemplates the option.
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by Manu »

Link There was talk of BJP ditching them, even though they have a very remote connection, if any
Bhartiya Janata Party (BJP) leader Rajnath Singh today defended god woman Pragya Singh, accused of involvement in the Malegaon blasts.

Singh accused the investigative agencies of framing the god woman in the wake inadequate evidences.

“If there are evidences then they should be revealed to the public by the government and investigating agencies so that people can judge whether the God woman is guilty or not. If any such evidences were found I would myself consider her terrorist, said Singh.

The ongoing talks about narco test and brain mapping proves that the investigating authorities don”t have adequate evidences against her,” added Singh.

Police had arrested Pragya, Major (retired) Ramesh Upadhyay and Samir Kulkarni on October 23, for possible involvement in last month’’s blast in Maharashtra’s Malegaon town.

Five people were killed in the blasts that hit the Muslim-dominated town on September 29.
A Nasik court has remanded the arrested alleged militants to police custody till November 4.

However, Kulkarni and Upadhyay have refused any legal assistance.
Link
First time in India: Police interrogate army officer
P Naveen, Rajesh Johri and Presley Thomas , Hindustan Times
Based on text messages he allegedly sent, a lieutenant colonel of the Indian Army based is being questioned for his alleged links to suspects in the September 29 bomb blast in Malegaon that killed four.

Military Intelligence officials from the Lucknow-based Central Command interrogated Lt Col Srikant Prasad Purohit on Thursday, according to sources who declined to be identified since they are not authorised to speak to the media.

Purohit was learning a foreign language at the Army Education Corps in Pachmarhi, a Madhya Pradesh hill town. He is suspected of links with retired Army Major Ramesh Upadhyay, arrested on October 29 by the Maharashtra Police for alleged involvement in the Malegaon blast.

Army officials in Pachmarhi refused comment. Spokesperson for the Central Command in Lucknow, Dr Kismat Sagar, said: “We don’t have any information (on this) so far.”

Army Headquarters in Delhi said it would “continue to provide all assistance to the investigating agency as and when required”.

“While no formal application has been received from the police authorities, the Army HQ has decided to extend full cooperation and facilitate interaction of the officer with the investigating officials,” the release said.
Link
Ex-army officer Upadhyay alleges torture by ATS
Nashik, Oct 29 (IANS) Retired army officer Ramesh Upadhyay of Pune, an accused in the Sep 29 Malegaon bomb blast case, Wednesday charged the Maharashtra Police’s Anti-Terrorist Squad (ATS) interrogators of physically torturing him.”The marks of ATS beating are still fresh on my body,” Upadhyay told the Chief Judicial Magistrate’s court here Wednesday when he was produced there by ATS officers seeking his police remand.

Strongly opposing Special Public Prosecutor Ajay Misar’s plea for his remand, Upadhyay said the ATS sleuths have already grilled and tortured him enough without unearthing any evidence against him.

Telling the court that he was a heart patient and could not survive without medication for single day, Upadhyay demanded that a thorough medical examination be conducted on him.

Offering himself for a narco test or any other scientific investigation and assuring the ATS full cooperation in their enquiry, Upadhyay claimed to hold high status and esteem in civil society as an ex-army officer.

“I am a proud ex-serviceman, a responsible citizen and a hardcore patriot; I have never indulged in or aided any terrorist activity. Such dirty allegations and police custody is the last thing I deserve,” Upadhyay said in his had-hitting self-defence.
The ATS had Saturday detained Sameer Kulkarni and retired major Ramesh Upadhyay from Pune. They were interrogated under detention and finally placed under arrest Tuesday evening.

Among other things, the ATS has said that the two men were involved in imparting training to some activists of the right-wing Hindu Janjagriti Samiti (HJS).

Last week, three people, including a sadhvi (woman missionary), were arrested from Maharashtra and Madhya Pradesh in connection with the bomb blast in Malegaon, a town that has a strong concentration of Muslims, which left five people dead.

The sadhvi - Pragnya Singh Thakur - and her associates Shamlal Sahu and Shivnarain Singh are in police custody till Nov 3.
HINDUSTAN TIMES
If it’s ‘terrorists’, adjectives don’t matter. The arrest of alleged ‘Hindu militants’ could well be the first step to restoring faith in the law, something that has taken a beating after the lack of accountability after each terror attack. It will also reassure people that despite the long delays in the investigation process, the law enforcement agencies are no longer cavalier in dealing with terrorism. We have been beset by two major problems when it comes to cracking cases associated with terrorism. One is that of the tensions between the Centre and states.

The other is the quibbling among political parties. This has led to political parties losing sight of the fact that a terrorist is a terrorist is a terrorist and matters of faith and ideology are secondary. The BJP, which should conduct itself in the manner appropriate of a responsible Opposition, does little credit to itself by raising objections to the use of the term ‘Hindu terrorists’. This is simply positing the polar opposite of the knee-jerk objection to the use of ‘Muslim terrorists’. Such nomenclature is of no relevance and the only object of all political parties should be that the law follows its course and those who target civilians be brought to book.

The Malegaon arrests, however, show that the stereotypes about terrorism may no longer be watertight. It is not confined to a particular community, area or religion and may have taken on a ‘simple’ tit-for-tat-for-tit quality. This means that combating it becomes all the more difficult. But the good news seems to be that the investigating agencies, in this case the Maharashtra Police, are not letting up for a moment. This will send out a signal to terrorists that, however long it may take, the law will catch up with them. For such investigations to be more effective and quick, we need to rely much more on human intelligence. This is not a prescription for neighbours to tell on each other but for much greater checks and information on any suspicious activity. While we may not agree totally with the tactics adopted by the US post- 9/11, there is something to be said for greater vigilance and filtering of information. This probably explains why the US has not had any terror incident since that fateful day.
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by ramana »

Looks like a frame up by pandus. Will have repercussions when ex-servicemen are ill treated like this. Most likely the major was into physical trg for youth and is being harassed. Something odd is going on. I only hope MMS govt doesn't burn bridges with servicemen after the pay commission and rank degradation.

Are there ex-servicemen organizations to defend the ex-major?

From TOI
Retd Major had three meetings with Pragya
30 Oct 2008, 2339 hrs IST, Mateen Hafeez, TNN
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
NASHIK: Retired major Ramesh Upadhyay, arrested in connection with the Malegaon bomb blast, had at least three meetings with sadhvi Pragya Singh
Thakur and her accomplices before the explosion in the textile town that killed six. They had met at Bhonsala Military School in Nashik.

This was disclosed by public prosecutor Ajay Misar in the court of Justice P G Patil in Nashik where Upadhyay and Bhopal printing press employee Sameer Kulkarni were produced on Wednesday. The duo has been sent to police custody till November 10. Pune-based Upadhyay, who once headed the BJP's Mumbai unit of the ex-servicemen's cell, was picked up by the ATS on Saturday. Kulkarni is accused of transporting the explosives and participating in the meetings.

The anti-terrorism squad (ATS) has so far arrested five persons in connection with the blast in Malegaon on September 29. Pragya and her two associates, Shamlal Sahu and Shivnarayan Singh, were arrested on October 23. All the accused have been booked for murder, attempt to murder, conspiracy for a terror act, unlawful assembly and making bomb under various sections of the Unlawful Activities Prevention Act and the Explosive Act.

The bike used in the bomb blast was registered in the sadhvi's name. Pragya, who was an active member of Akhil Bharatya Vidyarthi Parishad (ABVP) a decade ago, was also the national executive secretary of Durga Vahini, Vishwa Hindu Parishad's women's wing.

"Upadhyay, who was posted in the artillery department while working with the Indian military, is suspected to have guided the arrested persons on how to assemble a bomb and procure RDX,'' said Misar. The public prosecutor also moved an application before the court, seeking permission to subject Upadhyay and Kulkarni to polygraph, lie-detector and narco analysis tests "to find out the missing links in the larger conspiracy''. The court granted permission for forensic tests.

Sukhvindar Singh, additional commissioner of police, ATS, said, "We have arrested the two on several charges such as murder and attempt to murder. We are trying to find out the role of these accused in a larger conspiracy. However, commenting on this would be too early at this juncture.''

"We have evidence that the accused conducted at least three meetings at Bhonsala Military School in Nashik prior to the blast. The telephonic conversation also shows links among all the accused,'' added Misar. However, he did not clarify if the blast plot was hatched during their meeting.

The military school located on College Road in Nashik imparts basic military trainign to its students like horse riding, swimming and shooting. It has several schools of CBSE board on its premises.

Umesh Welzare, an advocate, who tried to help Upadhyay, was disappointed when the latter rejected his offer. Upadhyay said, "I don't know him (Welzare). I will defend myself.'' The retired major, who looked nervous in court, said in fluent English, "I have served the country and can never commit such a heinous crime. I am a heart patient and need a daily check-up. I am ready for a narco test and to cooperate with the investigators but the only thing I want is that the police should behave with me humanly.'' Upadhyay admitted in the court that he had met the sadhvi once and had shared a dias with her thrice. Upadhya, who is into transport business after retirment, also told the court that there were injuries on his body, but he did not attribute it to any kind of police "torture''. :shock:

Kulkarni, who is also the head of "social outfit'' Abhinav Bharat did not say anything in court. Popularly known as Chanakya among friends, Kulkarni had shifted from Maharashtra to Bhopal a few years ago. Ironically, he had conducted an anti-terrorism exhibition at Gandhi Bhavan in Bhopal a few months ago.

mateen.hafeez@timesgroup.com
Again odd. Prime facie looks like casual links are being twisted. Good idea to reject court lawyer as often they are unemployed folks and could give wrong advise to ensure State wins.
sum
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by sum »

Why on earth are serving officers being named by the media just because they were called for a "chat" by the police?
Does the media have no shame? Couldnt they wait to reveal the name till the case is proved(which i doubt)?
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by ramana »

Were the reports of RDX in the Malegoan case?
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by vera_k »

Vivek K wrote:Couldn't agree with fanne more. By the same logic that vera_k has used, Americans would be right in killing Mexicans or other immigrants? Are they then not right to complain about out-sourcing and the export of cheap labor from Mexico to the US.
Well don't the Americans occassionally do all this today? Before you dismiss me consider that disparity in income between Bihar and Maharashtra even two years ago was on the same order as that between Mexico and the US. This does not point to a sustainable situation and needs to be fixed.

Per capita income
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by bhavin »

I had done a training course at Bhonsala Military School... memories of drills under the NCO are still fresh in my mind. That was the time when I got a chance to see Bofors in action as well as press the button on the field artillery piece at the Artillery school (?) at Nashik... saw rows of MBRLS in sheds there... learned horse riding there but did not make the cut for the polo team.. Got a lot of practical survival skills... sorry for the OT post... seeing that name revived my memories..
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by Yayavar »

vera_k wrote:
Vivek K wrote:Couldn't agree with fanne more. By the same logic that vera_k has used, Americans would be right in killing Mexicans or other immigrants? Are they then not right to complain about out-sourcing and the export of cheap labor from Mexico to the US.
Well don't the Americans occassionally do all this today? Before you dismiss me consider that disparity in income between Bihar and Maharashtra even two years ago was on the same order as that between Mexico and the US. This does not point to a sustainable situation and needs to be fixed.

Per capita income
So you are equating cross nation illegal migration against entirely legal movement within the nation? And your comment about 'hindi imposition' -- is that something from the 60's? Mandal - which politician and from which part of India opposes it? Ayodhya - did you follow the progress of the events? Is Deve Gowda better than Tarun Gogoi than Mayawati ? Is there a positive change in Bihar since Nitish Kumar? Next you would want to dump on Indira Gandhi because she was from Allahabad not because of her policies. oh! Sam Pitroda hailed from a poor state too - Orissa!! We should cancel C-DAC :) in Karnataka.
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by R_Kumar »

sugriva wrote:
I think one of our piskological problems, atleast of the class of people who get to post at a place like BRF is that we are too cynical. We seem to think that politics is the end all and be all of all issues in this country. I would urge that we re-evaluate our positions. There cannot be smoke without fire.
Doesn't matter from what angle you see. Shouldn't a criminal like Raj Thakrae be in jail? If he feels recruitment policy is biased against local, he should fight politically, do some dharna, take legal route
e.t.c..

Recently I am seeing lots of hatred from Maharashtrians working in U.S.A. I am talking about Rediff and TOI user comment.
They should look at the mirror and ask themselves why Americans shouldn't kill them.
One thing is sure, grass is not going to be green all the time. For example, I am sure number of people from Bombay working in Bangalaore is much more than number of people from Bangalore working in Bombay.
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by vera_k »

viv wrote:So you are equating cross nation illegal migration against entirely legal movement within the nation?
This is better addressed to Vivek K. In my mind there is no equivalence between the two.
viv wrote:And your comment about 'hindi imposition' -- is that something from the 60's?
You'd think so, but it goes to show how the MNS can build support exploiting latent issues. As late as the 90s the Sena used to protest against English until people pointed out that they'd do better by protesting against Hindi as a threat to Marathi.
viv wrote:Mandal - which politician and from which part of India opposes it?
Both BJP and SS opposed Mandal when it was announced.
viv wrote: Ayodhya - did you follow the progress of the events?
Not sure what you are trying to say here.
viv wrote:Is Deve Gowda better than Tarun Gogoi than Mayawati ? Is there a positive change in Bihar since Nitish Kumar? Next you would want to dump on Indira Gandhi because she was from Allahabad not because of her policies. oh! Sam Pitroda hailed from a poor state too - Orissa!! We should cancel C-DAC :) in Karnataka.
How is any of this relevant? Based on my observations I feel that political issues are impeding development in Bihar and UP leading to increasing disparity between states. If you feel there are other reasons feel free to point that out.
R_Kumar
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by R_Kumar »

vera_k wrote: If India is finding its feet today it is because of progress on the economic and social front in states other than UP and Bihar.

Whether for political or social reasons these states are exporting division and causing resentment in the rest of India be it in the form of Hindi imposition, Mandal or Ayodhya.

Question is what can be done now to help these states focus on development instead of divisive issues? Perhaps a longish stint of Central rule coupled with heavy spending on development and Central guarantees for investors starting businesses in these states is required.
Oh Man !! How did I miss that? Where you were hiding?
Forget about the welfare of these poor states, just ask center government to make these states independent nation. Because as long as they are part of India you can't restrict their people to go to any part of the country.
Yayavar
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Re: Internal Security Watch

Post by Yayavar »

vera_k wrote: How is any of this relevant? Based on my observations I feel that political issues are impeding development in Bihar and UP leading to increasing disparity between states. If you feel there are other reasons feel free to point that out.
Certainly,..however my comments were mainly in response to the following quote. I might have misunderstood what you are implying...
Whether for political or social reasons these states are exporting division and causing resentment in the rest of India be it in the form of Hindi imposition, Mandal or Ayodhya.
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