Internal Security Watch

munna · Post by **munna** » 31 Oct 2008 12:19

There is something to the argument of export of divisions to the rest of the country. UP and Bihar where I spent a considerable portion of my life did give one a feeling of caste being the be all and end of your existence.
However that is besides the point. Economic immigration (internal) in our country is legal and should be allowed to go on but at the same time goons like Raj T should not be allowed to harness the stress generated in the host state for their own political ends. He gives a feeling of Bhindranwale redux where by a scheming central government fostered a non entity to become a defender of faith and people. The violence must stop and normalcy ensured but at the same time people from the UP and Bihar must think as to what keeps them from generating the opportunities in their own states.

PS: I think Biharis are one of hardest working people on Earth but they seem to have got the governance part of Bihar all wrong! It is one the paradoxes that baffles me just like the commie rule in West Bengal.

Skanda · Post by **Skanda** » 31 Oct 2008 12:55

I think Biharis are one of hardest working people on Earth but they seem to have got the governance part of Bihar all wrong! It is one the paradoxes that baffles me just like the commie rule in West Bengal.

I have never understood statements like these. Who is not?

Are (Kannadigas, Tamilians, Malayalees, Teluguites) South Indians not hardworking?
Are (Maharashtrians and Oriyans) not hardworking?

I am too tired to type all the states, but how many states can we point a finger and say, "These guys are more hardworking than these guys".

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 31 Oct 2008 13:06

Doesn't matter from what angle you see. Shouldn't a criminal like Raj Thakrae be in jail?

I agree. If you read the rest of my post you will yourself come to the conclusion that I do not agree with RajT's methods. That is not how civil society should work.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 31 Oct 2008 13:35

skanda, don't make this a competition. Indians in general are hardworking irrespective of where they come from.
that being said the average migrant bihari is the very epitome of adaptability and the ability to survive against all odds, somewhat more so than others if I may say so. (note that I'm not talking of just hardwork)
speaking from personal experience of course. may be it is out of necessity, may be it is out of a practice borne out of hardships of many generations (for some centuries now bihar hasn't had a flourishing economy that can absorb all its working population) but the fact remains that many biharis will survive and even flourish in situations that would daunt most other communities.

vera k, I really don't know what you are trying to convey here ?
your posts are coming across as divisive and smacking of regional biases.

FWIW
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_of_ ... of_economy

Skanda · Post by **Skanda** » 31 Oct 2008 14:19

Rahul M wrote: that being said the average migrant bihari is the very epitome of adaptability and the ability to survive against all odds, somewhat more so than others if I may say so. (note that I'm not talking of just hardwork)
speaking from personal experience of course.

Rahul,
I completely disagree with statements like these. There are already enough "opinions based on personal experience" floating around this thread. Everyone in this country is an epitome of adaptability and ability to survive against all odds.

Please show me one guy who will agree that "He doesnt adapt and give up facing some odds". It is human instinct to be one among everyone.

Somehow, I still am very confused by statements such as these. What is the information that I am supposed to gather from these? That Biharis are more adaptable, while a another section of this country are just brash and haughty?

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 31 Oct 2008 14:30

I'm currently reporting from a small village in deep south of India.There is road relaying work going in front of my house (village road) and almost 30 workers are from Bihar or Orissa. They are all speaking in Hindi so are instantly recognisable, which leads me to conclude that basically Biharis are only the active workforce readily available around India. They are the only ones who are left in India to do all kinds of unskilled-semiskilled work. Once the Biharis are also exhausted, we will lose our low-wage economy status .. i feel.

It is really ungrateful on people in India to slam Biharis, these are the only people left who actually do back-breaking work that has few takers. Once Bihari workforce gets depleted, their replacements most likely will be people we would like to see least .. bangladeshis.

Are (Kannadigas, Tamilians, Malayalees, Teluguites) South Indians not hardworking?

Not anymore if you ask me. There are only Biharis to do all the tough work now.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 31 Oct 2008 14:50

Raju wrote:I'm currently reporting from a small village in deep south of India.

Not to derail this thread, but I whole heartedly agree with this. In Kerala during the early 1980s we saw a huge influx of Tamilians arriving in the state. With the Mallu mentality that "we will only work in a white collar job", Tamilians were the available workforce for back-breaking job like digging trenches etc. Many of them also took up other jobs, by quoting less prices than Mallu counter parts.

By late 2000s, things had changed. Tamilians had moved up the value chain and now run many small business establishments. The back-breaking type jobs (again digging trenches for telephone cables, road widening etc.) are now done by people from Orissa and Bihar. Many of the seasonal agricultural workers are now from Orissa (mallu karshaka thozilalis-agricultural workers are too costly to come by).

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 31 Oct 2008 14:54

there used to be Tamil labour for such kind of work as well as artisanal work available until a couple years ago. But economic progress in TN has evaporated even that and all that is left are the Bihari labour from Northern end of Punjab to southern end.

And then again from Western tip of Bombay to Eastern tip of Assam.

Bihar seems to be the unifying force in this country now. Wherever Biharis are treated well have India's best interests at heart.

Skanda · Post by **Skanda** » 31 Oct 2008 15:07

Raju wrote:
It is really ungrateful on people in India to slam Biharis, these are the only people left who actually do back-breaking work that has few takers. Once Bihari workforce gets depleted, their replacements most likely will be people we would like to see least .. bangladeshis.
[...]

Not anymore if you ask me. There are only Biharis to do all the tough work now.

That is correct. Since I worked my way through engineering, found a job and rest my a** on a chair in an air-conditioned office, how could I know what "tough work" means.

I really do not understand our romanticsm with poverty. Poverty is a problem and needs a solution. If "people from a small village in deep south India" do not do hard labour, but are still earning their share of bread; then should I view that as a good sign or a sign of contempt?

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 31 Oct 2008 15:13

Skanda wrote:I really do not understand our romanticsm with poverty. Poverty is a problem and needs a solution. If "people from a small village in deep south India" do not do hard labour, but are still earning their share of bread; then should I view that as a good sign or a sign of contempt?

broaden the understanding horizon then .. often it is noticed that when English is not the first language different people take it in a different context.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 31 Oct 2008 15:26

Skanda wrote: Rahul,
I completely disagree with statements like these. There are already enough "opinions based on personal experience" floating around this thread. Everyone in this country is an epitome of adaptability and ability to survive against all odds.

and some more so than others, may be it is due to a compulsion but the fact remains.
what's the problem with "opinions based on personal experience" as long as they are true ?

Skanda wrote: Please show me one guy who will agree that "He doesnt adapt and give up facing some odds". It is human instinct to be one among everyone.

really, do I need to even give an example ? may be no one would agree but it is obvious that some people are more ready to battle hardships in general.
as to the example take the pakis in leeds and birmingham.

Skanda wrote: Somehow, I still am very confused by statements such as these. What is the information that I am supposed to gather from these? That Biharis are more adaptable, while a another section of this country are just brash and haughty?

I really get exasperated when people draw unfounded extensions like that.
when did I ever say that ? why don't you just come out in the open and say what you feel over this issue ?
that's no way to argue. if this is the way you want to contest my comments I've nothing more to add.
regards.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 31 Oct 2008 15:46

Assuming not everyone subscribes to LalMohan's characterization of all Maharshtrians as Nazis, there, are some fundamental grievances at work here. The impression popularized by the TV channels is that its Raj Thackrey and his gang that is out spreading the hate against Biharis. Most of the violence can probably be attributed to them, but there is a lot of latent support to his views. Most probably do not object to Biharis doing menial labour, although ironically they are the most visible, most vulnerable and the most easily targetted. Why does Railway advertise for Maharshtra based jobs outside the State? I am aware that Grade III and IV do not have zonal limits, but cant the Railway find candidates from within the state? Why is it that Biharis have come from their home state to appear for these exams?

The other sore sticking point is the attitude of Bihari leaders such as Abu Azmi and Lalu Yadav and PAswan. A guy brandishing a gun in full view and threatening to kill is shot by the police, and these leaders are asking for Section 302 against the police? Lalu Yadav threatens to stop trains to Mumbai and gives lectures on law and order? Issues such as these are polarizing opinion very rapidly. The other thing is the perceived ganging up of Bihari and UP leaders against Maharashtra. IIRC, the same thing happened in Assam, and a lot more people have been killed there than in Maharashtra, yet Maharashtrians have been made out to be Nazis and worse. The agitation of the South against implementation of Hindi was a similar thing: a resistance against perceived imposition against local culture.

Characterizing Maharashtrians as Nazis as some have done on this thread, ridiculing them is not going to result in an answer to this problem. One must be aware that Biharis in Maharashtra dont vote at the moment. Maharashtrians do, and in large numbers. What happens when they start voting for MNS/SS? Are you going to scrap the elections because you dont like the verdict? The need of the hour is to have the irresponsible statements from both sides to stop, and address the grievances. For example, a token gesture of Railways preferring local candidates and a fast track court for Raj would go a long way in addressing both sides of the issues. This thing has quite a lot of divisive potential and one must not under estimate the capabilities of the Indian politicians to take advantage of it.

Skanda · Post by **Skanda** » 31 Oct 2008 16:21

Rahul M wrote: I really get exasperated when people draw unfounded extensions like that.
when did I ever say that ? why don't you just come out in the open and say what you feel over this issue ?
that's no way to argue. if this is the way you want to contest my comments I've nothing more to add.
regards.

So please stop making statements of how Biharis represent the epitome of adaptability and survivability. This is like me saying, "According to my personal observations, delhiites are one of the fairest" and then when asked this question "Are delhites more fair than malayalees?", answering back saying, "When did I ever say that?". Zero information conveyed, but a lot of rhetoric.

Everyone in India has to work hard for a living and that spans over different states. Empathizing Bihars condition is a lot different than "Romanticizing their problem". They are as hardworking or as surviving as me or you.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 31 Oct 2008 16:24

tanaji

i see that you're hurt by my comment. it is the same hurt bengalis on this forum feel when they are called commies. it is the same hurt any indian feels when other indians criticize through generalisation

why shouldn't railways advertise for mumbai based jobs across india? it is a federal/national organisation. why shouldn't TCS or Infy or Oberoi Hotels not advertise across India for mumbai based jobs? mumbai's great attraction is as the commercial heart of India - isn't that something to be proud of? doesn't being from there give marathis an automatic advantage in the job market?

believe me, i know a lot of marathis very very personally and intimately, clearly they are not nazis, BUT - and here is the important part - there is HUGE sympathy amongst many for the SS agenda without even thinking about what it really means. many of them think of their Indian identity as being marathi only, similarly bengalis class the world as bengali and non-bengali, so no-one is innocent here

your underlying grievances are not special, everyone in india has the same. we either progress collectively as Indians or we sink - putting state ahead of nation is not going to get us out of the sh*thole the rest of the outside world thinks we (all) live in.

thats my point

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 31 Oct 2008 16:34

Tanaji wrote:Why does Railway advertise for Maharshtra based jobs outside the State? I am aware that Grade III and IV do not have zonal limits, but cant the Railway find candidates from within the state? Why is it that Biharis have come from their home state to appear for these exams?

This is very wrong way of depicting this. Railways was doing this since ages. Go to Jarkhand (erst while Bihar). The entire zone is SE Railways. There is a huge Telugu population.

It is unacceptable to say that some one from other part of country cannot come and compete. Try to outbeat them in the exam rather than heckling them.

MNS is showcasing to India that Marathis are cry babies rather than competitive bunch (I know it is not true). This is Marathi leadership at its worst in the history.

Shiv Sena did the same thing in 70s against South Indians in Mumbai.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 31 Oct 2008 16:51

Bombay should never have been renamed Mumbai. MNS and some Marathis now may think they have a higher rights to the city now, now that it is called Mumbai, but Bombay has been built by Indians from everywhere.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 31 Oct 2008 16:52

This is very wrong way of depicting this. Railways was doing this since ages. Go to Jarkhand (erst while Bihar). The entire zone is SE Railways. There is a huge Telugu population.

It is unacceptable to say that some one from other part of country cannot come and compete. Try to outbeat them in the exam rather than heckling them.

Umm, are you sure? If I am not mistaken, earlier Grade III and Grade IV recruitment was zone based and open to anyone in that zone. In the past 5-6 years or more this changed to be free for all. Your anecdote would fit since Jharkhand would be in the same zone. But then I could be mistaken. I think the point was that for these exams, there were no ads in the local newspapers, only in national ones, at least thats what the media reports said. It would be constructive to see what is really the truth: the media has twisted a lot of things on both sides.

we either progress collectively as Indians or we sink - putting state ahead of nation is not going to get us out of the sh*thole the rest of the outside world thinks we (all) live in.

No argument there. Some positive news for calming tempers:

http://in.rediff.com/news/2008/oct/31mns3.htm

there is HUGE sympathy amongst many for the SS agenda without even thinking about what it really means. many of them think of their Indian identity as being marathi only, similarly bengalis class the world as bengali and non-bengali, so no-one is innocent here

That is my point actually. Instead of acknowledging that a significant groundswell of support exists for these perceived or otherwise grievances, how is characterizing an entire population as a nazis or commies going to help? You can either forcefully try changing it with the inherent hazards as the Bihari politicians are trying to do or go down a middle path.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 31 Oct 2008 17:03

Another incident,
Heard from horse mouth. Some of the most hazardous projects in J&K (I would not name them for obvious reasons), the workers are are from what state? Now I am not talking about just the laborers, I am talking engineers - Bihar. Will Raj Thakrey go and work in these projects for even a month, now that he is blue blooded maybe as a project manager?

Tananji,
With due respect, when you go ballistic against cretain people, it is good to get the facts right. If you do not, it means that you have rushed to judgment and yes then all of your argument looks suspect. It is like no Tspian has ever met a joo but still hates him. You ask why and they would say that they control the earth, they did 911 etc etc. Abu Azmi is not Bihari. And frankly your response reads to me like an apology for Raj Thackrey. Laloo is stupid for calling to stop Railway; it is not his to stop, as much as I cannot stop the subway in England. The last point, having wide latent support does not make it right, if it did, why do we try Ind Mujahid then. I bet in India they have more support (in numbers) than Raj Thackrey.
I understand that as a Marathi you would have lots of emotions in this episode. But I hope being at BR you would have learned where to stop your personal/regional preference and start supporting the Country. Whether Raj Thackrey has support or not, he must be tried and punished, we left that divisive politics a decade ago.
The bottom-line of this agitation is not that Marathis have a genuine grievance or not, it is one unemployed politician (Raj) wants power, few people killed (and mind you it is about time when Marathis also get killed), even his own state people, is no sweat off his back. A central government that has institutional memory of clinging to power in few ways (muslim appeasement and stocking regional fire a la Bhinderwale) is stocking this fire. They started many - Orrisa (Rahul visit to Koraput in first half of 2007 was per plan), Amarnath, Gujjar, MNS etc etc. Almost all have backfired, except for MNS one. So next time, Tanaji, when you go supporting MNS, remember, he is doing this for himself, not you.
Let me get you the end point. I doubt any non-Marathis would be expelled from Bombay (however hard one may try, otherwise expelling BD would have been much easier), some grade 3 Railway jobs in Maha may be only open to people from that state (some 300 jobs a year). Till here I am fine, what I fear is that if this go Punjab way and we see some 10,000 deaths (only so that Raj can be CM), some 5000 of them Marathis, I would say that is too costly a price to pay. So stop this nonsense, before even it is costly for the people who are supporting it right now.
Thanks,
fanne

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 31 Oct 2008 17:47

Fanne:

With due respect, when you go ballistic against cretain people,

Do let me know where I have gone "ballistic" against "certain" people. My posts are still around and I have not edited them. If criticizing Laloo and Abu Azmi is being ballistic, then yes I am guilty as charged. I am not sorry for it though, Abu Azmi may be your soft spot, but not mine. And yes, Abu Azmi is not from Bihar. He does fashion himself as the entire North Indian community leader though, or a Muslim leader depending on the situation. Its an academic distinction as to whether he is Bihari or North Indian in this situation.

Whether Raj Thackrey has support or not, he must be tried and punished, we left that divisive politics a decade ago

Thank you for agreeing with me. For your edification here is a snippet from my earlier post

For example, a token gesture of Railways preferring local candidates and a fast track court for Raj would go a long way in addressing both sides of the issues.

Till here I am fine, what I fear is that if this go Punjab way and we see some 10,000 deaths (only so that Raj can be CM), some 5000 of them Marathis, I would say that is too costly a price to pay. So stop this nonsense, before even it is costly for the people who are supporting it right now.

How is this different from what I said? Again for your edification:

What happens when they start voting for MNS/SS? Are you going to scrap the elections because you dont like the verdict? The need of the hour is to have the irresponsible statements from both sides to stop, and address the grievances. For example, a token gesture of Railways preferring local candidates and a fast track court for Raj would go a long way in addressing both sides of the issues. This thing has quite a lot of divisive potential and one must not under estimate the capabilities of the Indian politicians to take advantage of it.

The Paki wet dream of "let a 1000 insurgencies bloom" is already becoming a reality. The last thing we need is a massive unrest in Maharashtra because of ill-formed policies of "Lets teach Maharashtrian leaders a lesson" at the behest of UP and BIhari leaders.

RajeshA wrote:Bombay should never have been renamed Mumbai. MNS and some Marathis now may think they have a higher rights to the city now, now that it is called Mumbai, but Bombay has been built by Indians from everywhere.

Was the re-naming to Kolkatta, Bengluru and Chennai an assertion of cosmopolitan origins of the respective communities in those cities?

We in India are made up of various languages and backgrounds. Sooner we accept it the better.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 31 Oct 2008 17:50

Tanaji wrote: We in India are made up of various languages and backgrounds. Sooner we accept it the better.

??!?!? that multiplicity is a screaming reality, its the unity that remains elusive!!!!! i am sorry tanaji, you are behaving as though your marathi identity is at threat here

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 31 Oct 2008 17:55

That last line was aimed at RajeshA's post. He was implying that Bombay -> Mumbai was an expression of Marathi chauvinism though he did not say so in so many words. I was pointing out that it was the same case with Kolkotta, Bengluru and Chennai: local people feeling the need to assert their identity.

i am sorry tanaji, you are behaving as though your marathi identity is at threat here

No it was solely aimed at RajeshA.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 31 Oct 2008 18:02

Skanda wrote:So please stop making statements of how Biharis represent the epitome of adaptability and survivability. This is like me saying, "According to my personal observations, delhiites are one of the fairest" and then when asked this question "Are delhites more fair than malayalees?", answering back saying, "When did I ever say that?". Zero information conveyed, but a lot of rhetoric.

oh dear !

this is getting even more ridiculous.
biharis work virtually at every place in the country including the most inhospitable ones. In most of these places, many far away from their home state they are the only migrant workers there is. Now draw whatever interpretation you need from that.
That is just a fact that every Indian knows from a regular cursory glance at media outlets even without the backing of a census.(the census does back up these claims btw)
If you disagree to this fact then I can only empathize with your lack of appreciation of how India works. I really have nothing more to add in that case.
Sorry if I sound harsh.
the "answering back" was in response to

What is the information that I am supposed to gather from these? That Biharis are more adaptable, while a another section of this country are just brash and haughty?

why are you switching what I said ? how does saying biharis are adaptable automatically convert into a damnation of the characteristics of other communities ?
Sorry to say this but it seems you have a massive chip on your shoulder.

Skanda wrote:Everyone in India has to work hard for a living and that spans over different states. Empathizing Bihars condition is a lot different than "Romanticizing their problem". They are as hardworking or as surviving as me or you.

err... who exactly is romanticizing the problem here ?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 31 Oct 2008 18:10

Tanaji wrote:
RajeshA wrote:Bombay should never have been renamed Mumbai. MNS and some Marathis now may think they have a higher rights to the city now, now that it is called Mumbai, but Bombay has been built by Indians from everywhere.
Was the re-naming to Kolkatta, Bengluru and Chennai an assertion of cosmopolitan origins of the respective communities in those cities?

We in India are made up of various languages and backgrounds. Sooner we accept it the better.

Bombay is by far the most cosmopolitan city from amongst your examples. It had become so cosmolitan, that Maharashtrians could not call the city a Marathi city anymore. As such the renaming should not have been done.

Whereas renaming the other cities, takes away very little from their essence, the renaming of Bombay to Mumbai was, as per the heated discussion that took place at the time, a net loss for the cosmopolitanism of the city.

However that is indeed an old topic, and I wouldn't want to go into any further.

I am in favor though of Indian Parliament giving each Indian Mega City the status of a separate state, as is the case with Delhi. A megacity has its own issues, and it is detrimental to its growth and health, when the issues of a single ethnicity overwhelm the demands of a megacity. How are the politicians elected in outlying villages going to understand and care for the requirements of the cities?

Of course, the megacity would still be rich with the culture of the dominant ethnicity, most probably of the neighboring state, and there will be a requirement that the megacity state and the neighboring state have cordial relations. There is also nothing wrong with the neighboring state continuing to use the megacity as its capital.

Delhi, Mumbai, Kolkatta, Chenai, Bengaluru, Hyderabad, Chandigarh are potential candidates.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 31 Oct 2008 18:28

Well thanks if you are not going ballistic against North Indians in general and Biharis in particular. At least that's how it is coming to me. And no, I am not defending either Laloo (an inept politician) or Abu Azmi (a pakistani with Indian passport). The distinction which you say is academic is of little solace. If you can see the dynamics, it is this. Most of Biharis/UPites would hate Abu Azmi more than Marathi Manus. The attack by Raj Thackrey goons (and Mahrastrians are not Nazis, but this Thackrey is a sorry copy of hitlers and his followers are behaving as Nazis) is pushing a substantial number of these guys into Azmi fold. I hope Nirupam Sen or someone can form a group and appose Raj T. and be distinct from Abu Azmi types. This amalgation of Abu Azmi and Bihar/UP expatriate population is not good for anyone except ISI.
As I said, this movement has only one basis - politics. It has nothing to do with any real or perceived grievance. Raj Thackrey is nothing more than what Bhinderwale was to India and to his state. We have learned that lesson and there is no need to learn it after 10s of thousands of death. Raj Thackrey would be punished regardless, now or later (if he continues on that path), the only thing that we are deciding, what should be the price that we pay, 2 deaths (so far, and I guess one person hands were amputed by MNS worker) or some thousands deaths, many of them Marathi Manus as well, who would have nothing to do with this movement. I do not think Maharastra is at a stage today that it needs to get 10,000 of people killed for some 100 of jobs. In Mumbai (btw I support the name change, why should be carry the burden of our slavery when we are independent, why have British name of places), I would guess that most jobs creation is done by Non Marathis and in proportion of that, higher amount of Job goes to Marathis. It is illogical to expect that we will let you create the job but not let you have them (even if it is proportionally less).
Thanks,
fanne

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 31 Oct 2008 18:36

Why would renaming Bombay to Mumbai do away with cosmopolitanism? Cosmopolitanism is inappropriate w.r.t India since the different people share a common Hindu heritage and CULTURAL ethos. It strictly needs to be seen through this prism. Problem is post 1947 discourse does not illuminate this backbone of national unity. No community should forget this. Sounds idealistic in this age of blaring "cosmopolitan" media. Their paymasters are located overseas.

Also please refrain using the terminology "Nazis" in ANY context of discussions on India. I hope moderators note this. This is a self goal.

Skanda · Post by **Skanda** » 31 Oct 2008 18:38

Rahul M wrote: this is getting even more ridiculous.
biharis work virtually at every place in the country including the most inhospitable ones. In most of these places, many far away from their home state they are the only migrant workers there is. Now draw whatever interpretation you need from that.
That is just a fact that every Indian knows from a regular cursory glance at media outlets even without the backing of a census.(the census does back up these claims btw)
If you disagree to this fact then I can only empathize with your lack of appreciation of how India works. I really have nothing more to add in that case.

I just dont understand the point. So essentially if people work on Mars, they have an extra tail compared to people who work on Earth. And because they have an extra tail, I am somehow supposed to adore and admire them a tad more than my fellow earthlings (Yes. I understand, you never said that!!!). While blissfully ignoring the conditions or the desperation that enabled them to go to Mars.

I disagree to everything you have written ever since I have started replying to you.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 31 Oct 2008 19:00

I had expected nothing more !

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 31 Oct 2008 19:06

Skanda,
Does that desperation make them worthy of being killed? or demonized. I guess you can say army is not a noble profession; these guys were desperate to earn a living so they should not be held in high esteem. What do you say about this engineer dude in J&K, his brother is here in US and we were batch mates back in India (that's how I know him). When I asked him why he is doing that risky job, he said somebody has to do it!! I am sure he can find better paying civil engineer job anywhere in India but he has chosen his path. Can you Mr. Skanda, ever make that kind of a choice? So yes, feel free to laugh at these desperate Biharis, mock them, run them aground, but please there is no room of violence against them. And not hate them for a simple reason that they were not lucky to be born in the exalted region or caste or race that you belong to. (I think the other bias that is there is, these folks are from rural background, and a butt of Jokes for the 'cosmopolitan' folks. I don't think these Manus treat there brethren from Vidharba who are rural any different from North Indian). This MNS movement is outright racist, being run by a raod side politician; I believe Marathis deserve a better leader than Raj (even if the issues remain the same). I am sure the land that has given us Bal Ganga Dhar Tilak and Veer Savarkar has more talented leader than this thug.
Thanks,
fanne

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 31 Oct 2008 19:10

Abhi_G wrote:Also please refrain using the terminology "Nazis" in ANY context of discussions on India. I hope moderators note this. This is a self goal.

what's your view on the word 'Commie'?

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 31 Oct 2008 19:13

A post from a different forum. Relevant here, posted by one Mr. Prashant, producing here without his authorization -

IT is now clear beyond doubt that Raj Thackeray is a Mohra of Congress as quite surprised He was allowed by police to address Media.

Please our Maratha/UP/Bihar brothers they are Dividing us just to grab power.
JUST see Sharad pawar talking of Maratha and Lalu/paswan/mulayam talking of UP/Bihar and ALL are enjoying power in UPA.
gOLMAAL hai bhai sab golmall

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 31 Oct 2008 19:16

Lalmohan, what new insight can I add to communism? I already emphasized the way HINDU, Sanatan Dharma, cultural ethos.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 31 Oct 2008 19:18

Abhi_G wrote:Lalmohan, what new insight can I add to communism? I already emphasized the way HINDU, Sanatan Dharma, cultural ethos.

i don't want your insight into communism, i just want to know if you think its ok to label all people from one part of india as commies by default? since you object to the term nazi by default, just wondering...

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 31 Oct 2008 19:45

Lalmohan, I am from Bengal. I object to using commie tag against all Bengalis. But I acknowledge that the effects of communism are too widely observed among so called intellectuals. However, I do not know if there is a wind of change blowing. Angry looking wall portraits of Lenin, Angels and Marx have started to give way to Aurobindo, Vivekananda and Bankim. I whole heartedly welcome that.

Crowds have swelled to Dakshineshwar as always. One of the gateways to the inner courtyard of the temple has clearly written on it: Janani Janmabhumischa Swargadwapi Gariyasi.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 31 Oct 2008 20:17

vera_k wrote:Well don't the Americans occassionally do all this today? Before you dismiss me consider that disparity in income between Bihar and Maharashtra even two years ago was on the same order as that between Mexico and the US. This does not point to a sustainable situation and needs to be fixed.

Can you clarify about what the Americans do today about this? So because of this disparity in incomes it is justified to prevent migration of citizens from one part of the country to another?

You say that this needs to be fixed - what is the fix? Spreading hate and fear-mongering leading to the death of innocent and breakdown of the law and order ? The intolerance that is displayed by Raj Thackeray towards Indian citizens is pretty sad and tantamount to treason against the state. Your defence of such indefensible behavior is apalling and maybe a sign of the future problems to come for India.

We may as well all start learning Chinese.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 31 Oct 2008 20:22

Abhi_G wrote:Lalmohan, I am from Bengal. I object to using commie tag against all Bengalis. But I acknowledge that the effects of communism are too widely observed among so called intellectuals. However, I do not know if there is a wind of change blowing. Angry looking wall portraits of Lenin, Angels and Marx have started to give way to Aurobindo, Vivekananda and Bankim. I whole heartedly welcome that.

Crowds have swelled to Dakshineshwar as always. One of the gateways to the inner courtyard of the temple has clearly written on it: Janani Janmabhumischa Swargadwapi Gariyasi.

Abhi, I have lived in Bengal and cherish those fond memories of Calcutta. It is time that Bengal gave up its fascination with Communism. It is time that Bengalis unlock their potential and get freedom from the shackles of communism.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Oct 2008 20:23

Tanaji is not supporting Raj Thackerey or MNS. He is pointing out the milieu they exist in. Its bad and needs to be fixed. Linguistic re-organization was a solution to States Integration and has to be broadened. RT is clearly has some support form INC in his antics to reduce SS clout by providing alternate channels for chavanism (

).

Aside in the 1960s Lok Sabha this as the phrase used instead of chauvinism and YB Chavan said "Atleast pease get the phrase right!"

So dont shoot the messneger if one doesn't like the message.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 31 Oct 2008 20:32

Giving mega cities the status of separate states would isolate these cities, with immigrants from all over the country, from chauvinist politics. The politics in the mega-city states will become solely about infrastructure, services and investment policies, as it ought to.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 31 Oct 2008 20:39

RT is clearly has some support form INC in his antics to reduce SS clout by providing alternate channels for chavanism

This is evident from

Overt support offered by Narayan Rane, a key member of the NCP that supports Congress in Maharashtra, and himself a former SS leader of prominence
The initial attitude of Congress towards RT before all this got blown out.
Rumour has it that a lot of cases have been filed in Maharashtra against RT. This is for two reasons: it gives the government basis to say it has done something and secondly it prevents the execution of warrants from out of state. Cant fault the strategy though, it prevents a messier situation from getting worse.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Oct 2008 20:46

Lalmohan, wrt to Abhi_G please back off. Thanks, ramana

Skanda, if you dont strike oil in five posts stop boring. You are not making yourself clear and worse appear to be after Biharis who are the ones suffering. Stop while you are ahead.

Thanks, ramana

munna · Post by **munna** » 31 Oct 2008 20:48

Dear Forumites
I regret to the see the environment of Indian discourse being poisoned to such an extent that a hard working patriotic Bihari gets targeted by a UPA goon and we do nothing about it and begin debating Paki like root cause theories! Just now we have witnessed blasts in Assam and these were carried out with active support of local illegal migrants from Assam and that does not gets the goat of a lot of forum members but a Bihari seeking a class 3/4 job does (and we talk of being a big power with such myopic strategic foresight). The India of today is a close albeit mitigated copy of the India of 1980s whereby we see a lot of non entities gaining much traction amongst local populace against the run of the play by active support of the central regime to stop the emergence of pan India electoral issues and thus implement the ol' British divide and rule. Bihar and UP are a demographic asset for the Indian nation and we must not punish the people just because their state is failing them!
So what if I am a Punjabi and my state is agriculturally advanced but today a massive amount of agro-production is handled (labour as well as farm managers) by them in my state and I am proud of them.

I stick by point that Biharis and UPites as of today are a very fine and hard working demographic resource that we possess no Bhindranwale clone will be allowed to stop India from using them otherwise it may well be Maharashtra's loss and other states gain.