Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 10 Nov 2008 22:57

indygill wrote:http://www.dailypioneer.com/132107/Hind ... e-UPA.html

Whoa look at the comments...

Keshav · Post by **Keshav** » 10 Nov 2008 23:06

Thank you for the information, all. Forgive my ignorance, I suppose, but this is the type of information that others can use to create other schools with high standards.

Besides some of the more hardcore leftists, there are quite a few well known people who went to that school.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Nov 2008 23:27

It would help if people stop using emoticons when discussing serious stuff. One doesnt know if the person is coming or going.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 10 Nov 2008 23:47

K Mehta wrote:
indygill wrote:http://www.dailypioneer.com/132107/Hind ... e-UPA.html
Whoa look at the comments...

Finally, the only self-professed nationalist (or rather, non-anti-yindoo) newspaper in the country's english language press applies the most basic propagandu techniques long perfected by phoren-o-phile and $$$ funded dhimmedia- - that is, have a 'pleasec omment' section open to the reading public and publish only those comments that agree with your editorial line. This is step 1 towards creating a community (some would call it echo chamber) online around a press-media vehicle. Excellente onlee.

Next step - run polls that reflect with at least 90%+ margin the views of your editorial policy. Make it easy to print and email articles, waive copyright issues. Make archives available. Invite volunteers to track terrorism etc events and create (moderated) blogs linked to the main site. Etc etc.

amolvp · Post by **amolvp** » 11 Nov 2008 03:46

In an effort to understand more about why Malegoan was chosen( if this incident was indeed executed by alleged ), I have been trawling the net looking for the details regarding the Malegaon blasts , and have been running into self/government censorship in most of the Indian news reports ( foreign news agencies barely mention it). All that i could find can be summarized as
1) various counts of fatalities : ranging from few to 25
2) few reports that the bomb was placed in front of a SIMI branch office.
3) the then investigation by CBI had found no involvement by Hindu groups

Could members of this forum, if they have more information , post it or point me in the correct direction?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Nov 2008 07:22

amolvp wrote:In an effort to understand more about why Malegoan was chosen( if this incident was indeed executed by alleged ), I have been trawling the net looking for the details regarding the Malegaon blasts , and have been running into self/government censorship in most of the Indian news reports ( foreign news agencies barely mention it). All that i could find can be summarized as
1) various counts of fatalities : ranging from few to 25
2) few reports that the bomb was placed in front of a SIMI branch office.
3) the then investigation by CBI had found no involvement by Hindu groups

Could members of this forum, if they have more information , post it or point me in the correct direction?

Sorry to belabor the point.

India is a secular country. which recognises that terrorism comes in 2 flavors, Good terrorism and Bad terrorism.

When terrorism continues unabated as "revenge for Babri Masjid and Gujarat riots" it is good terrorism and the terrorists, who are misguided youth being branded terrorists by the Hindu majority must be let of leniently. Investigations should not involve questioning or arresting any Muslims and any arrests of Muslims must be accompanied by the arrest of an equal number of Hindus.

But the Malegaon blasts are "bad terrorism". It must be dealt with with a firm hand. Secular India shall not tolerate terrorism of the bad kind.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 11 Nov 2008 08:03

Ah, but shiv, the good thing is that there is "only a little" of the bad terrorism.

Not many Hindu organisations involved in blasts'

September 19, 2008 | 14:04 IST

In the first part of his interview with Editor (National Affairs) Sheela Bhatt, Special Security (internal security) in the home ministry Mahendra Kumawat spoke about the security infrastructure in the country having busted 400 (GOOD) terror modules. In this the second part of his interview, he expands on the nature and makeup of these module.

SB:
There is a perception that the Indian intelligence establishment is not looking into Hindu fundamental militant organisations as intensely and seriously as you investigate SIMI.

MK: The Government of India bans any organisation on the basis of input it receives through our intelligence agencies, state police and state governments. If they give us such information, if they request a ban on some organisation, we do take action.

We have not come across many Hindu organisations indulging in bomb blasts, I think. But, there are some instances of Hindu organisations. We are alert about the problem.

SB: My straight question: do you think there are Hindu organisations capable of setting off bomb blasts within the country?

In Mumbai two-three Hindus did plant a bomb, the Shiv Sena chief had given some statement also.

(Does the SS chief's statement qualify as a bomb or just a lot of hot air?)

The damage was not much. But, there are not many cases.

There are cases of sectarian violence, for example the recent cases in Orissa and Karnataka. The central government has told them to take strict action against such organisations.

SB: How do you explain the Nanded blasts where Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh activists died and recently two Bajrang Dal activists died in Kanpur while assembling bombs?

(Darwin Award Winners)

MK: Don't ask me about specific cases. Ask me about policy matters.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Nov 2008 08:16

narayanan wrote:Ah, but shiv, the good thing is that there is "only a little" of the bad terrorism.

Not many Hindu organisations involved in blasts'

Naturally

shiv wrote: Secular India shall not tolerate terrorism of the bad kind.

The reason we have mostly good terrorism in revenge for Babri Masjid and Gujarat is because India shall not tolerate bad terrorism. Down with bad terrorism. And good riddance.

You can nuke Mumbai, Delhi, Bangalore Chennai, Tirupati - wherever, but I hang my head in shame about Dec 6th. No amount of compensatory killings of innocent people is enough. It is dharma that India should be punished with continuing terrorism because of the shame of Babri Masjid and Gujarat.

It bothers me that Hindu fundamentalists are getting their nasty little heads up. It is already several weeks since the Assam blasts. Where is the good terrorism? Have we lost all dharma?

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 11 Nov 2008 08:41

why is 'good terrorism' (in shiv's words) being pinned on the shoulders of all IMs ?

Is it not evident that it is exclusively a Pakistani enterprise in concert with Indian muslims whom they can occasionaly coerce into such acts. Add to that the Bangladesh angle.

And why is 'bad terrorism' sought to be pinned on just a few 'miscreants/goonda/BD thugs' when same privilege is not given to 'good terrorism' ?

So aren't we basically guilty of supposing that all IM's are potential terrorists who wish to bring back Mughal era into India whether they openly admit or not. Many IM's who seem liberal are actually plugging for demise of Hindu India in hope that the present structure will crumble and Mughal glory will be back.

These and their Yindoo supporters thus form the bedrock of the category named 'pseudo-secular'/fake liberaal..

BR Speak:
'bad terrorism' - terrorism by hindus
'good terrorism' - terrorism by muslims/naxal

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Nov 2008 08:49

Op-ed, Pioneer, 11 November, 2008

UPA's sinister designs

EDITS | Tuesday, November 11, 2008 | Email | Print |

UPA’s sinister shenanigans

Sandhya Jain

In a move fraught with danger, the Congress-dominated Central and Maharashtra Governments have unleashed a sinister plot to undermine the institutions of the police and the defence forces. These two grids literally hold the nation together, particularly in these troubled times when internal and external threats savage the citizenry so remorselessly.

By using the Maharashtra Anti-Terror Squad to target, arrest and malign certain retired and serving Army officers, whose only crime is alleged or real links with reputed nationalist families like the Savarkars, the UPA is deliberately demoralising and communalising the security agencies. If honourable and nationalist Hindus serving in the armed forces can be subjected to witch-hunts, then all serving police and defence officers will automatically become conscious of their personal religious affiliations in a manner that could override the solidarity for which the all-India services are justly renowned. This will corrode morale and efficiency, to say the least.

At the risk of sounding offensive, this could be viewed as the UPA’s revenge against the services on at least two counts. One was the firm refusal of both the police and the defence services to furnish the UPA Government with religion-based data on serving personnel. The second was the protest by the police and the three service chiefs against the recommendations of the Sixth Pay Commission. While the police had to pipe down, the service chiefs have proved difficult to tame.

A third reason is that senior Army officers have become vocal on strategic issues, and like some foreign office experts, have reservations about the peculiar twist given by the UPA to India’s foreign policy. Besides an unwarranted proximity to America, which resulted in the dubious nuclear deal, there is an inexplicable indifference to the plight of Iraq, coldness towards Iran, and a complete inability to assess the dangerous implications of increased US-Pakistan tensions on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border. India’s interests in Nepal have been compromised; and political hype against China upgraded for no obtainable end. It seems likely that senior defence officers have made their reservations known to the Government.

Certainly there has been a great vengefulness in the Maharashtra Government’s leaks about the so-called confessions of some accused persons. First, it claimed to have made arrests on the basis of confessions made by Sadhvi Pragya (who must have been targeted after she made waves during the Amarnath agitation in Jammu earlier this year). Then it admitted it had nothing tangible on her and submitted her to narcoanalysis, polygraph, lie detector, et al, and claimed that her skill in meditation had enabled her to dodge its trickery in trying to make her incriminate herself! BJP president Rajnath Singh has rightly accused the Maharashtra Government and police of harassing the Sadhvi, as no terrorist has been subjected to so many tests.

Currently, Lt Col Srikant Purohit is the focus of media leaks regarding his ‘confessions’. According to these fables, the 37-year-old officer planned the conspiracy and provided the RDX for the September 29 Malegaon attack which killed six persons. More serving officers could be indicted for their association with Lt Col Purohit.

The armed forces, however, in sharp contrast to the manner in which they were caught unawares in the cooked-up Samba spy case, have decided to refute these baseless allegations against serving and retired officers. They have, anonymously of course, countered that Lt Col Purohit could not have been involved in planning the blast and supplying RDX as no Army unit, let alone an officer, has access to this explosive. The RDX used for manufacturing shells is directly handled by ordnance factories and an officer working for Army Intelligence cannot access it.

More pertinently, Lt Col Purohit was studying Arabic at the Army Education Corps, Pachmarhi, Madhya Pradesh, for the last 18 months. He thus completely lacked the mobility required to plot or procure RDX or any weapon, as alleged. Furthermore, as he was deputed by Army Intelligence to learn Arabic, it was doubtless so he could do cyber-intelligence on Arabic Websites reputedly used to transmit messages to jihadi cells in India and other places. An officer working fulltime to legitimately combat terror had no logical reason to plot to kill innocent Muslim civilians. Not unless the ATS can prove that he is a psychopath.

It seems fairly certain that he has been selected for indictment because of his association with Abhinav Bharat, an organisation linked with Veer Savarkar’s family. This is an asinine, yet vicious, attempt to taint all nationalist Hindus as communalists, and to tell Muslims in the States going to the polls that the ruling Congress will delink Islam from the jihad tormenting India by guzzling hundreds of innocent lives every year.

That is why, while exulting in the treatment meted out to Sadhvi Pragya and our defence officers, the Congress has rushed to condemn ABVP activists for spitting upon SAR Geelani, an accused in the terrorist attack on Parliament House at a recent seminar. Sadly for the Congress, this was terribly ill-timed.

Last Friday, Kerala Police informed the Kerala High Court that it had recovered DVDs featuring SAR Geelani from the homes of youth who had participated in the August 15, 2006 SIMI camp at Panayikkulam near Aluva (The Pioneer, 8 November 2008). This establishes a link between the notorious SIMI and Geelani, much-feted by lib-left jholawallahs and invited to speak at Delhi University on ‘Communalism, Fascism and Democracy: Rhetoric and Reality.’

The SIMI meet reportedly prepared the schedule for the training camp held at Vagamon, Idukki, which Gujarat Police claims made preparations for the Ahmedabad bombings. The Kerala Police took five of the 15 participants into custody, but had to release them after high-level political intervention. They are now belatedly searching for possible links between the Panayikkulam camp case accused and those behind the attack on Parliament House.

The prevalence of terror modules in Kerala was accidentally exposed when two jihadis from the State were killed in an encounter with security forces in Jammu & Kashmir in October. Some accused in the Panayikkulam camp case have links with persons arrested for ties with the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Tayyeba. Lt Col Purohit was developing the skills to detect and unearth these terror modules; he did not need to indulge in pointless violence to save or avenge the nation.

interesting. Anybody has seen these reports or were they all subsumed by TOIlet tsunami?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Nov 2008 08:53

Raju wrote:why is 'good terrorism' (in shiv's words) being pinned on the shoulders of all IMs ?

Is it not evident that it is exclusively a Pakistani enterprise in concert with Indian muslims whom they can occasionaly coerce into such acts. Add to that the Bangladesh angle.

And why is 'bad terrorism' sought to be pinned on just a few 'miscreants/goonda/BD thugs' when same privilege is not given to 'good terrorism' ?

So aren't we basically guilty of supposing that all IM's are potential terrorists who wish to bring back Mughal era into India whether they openly admit or not. Many IM's who seem liberal are actually plugging for demise of Hindu India in hope that the present structure will crumble and Mughal glory will be back.

These and their Yindoo supporters thus form the bedrock of the category named 'pseudo-secular'/fake liberaal..

BR Speak:
'bad terrorism' - terrorism by hindus
'good terrorism' - terrorism by muslims/naxal

You accept that there is good and bad terrorism then? Thank you for the support. This is the precise point I am trying to make.

Terrorism is considered OK when it is done by some people and not OK when it is done by others. You and I may agree that "Good terrorism" is by Muslims and "bad terrorism" is by Hindus.

But there are Hindus who disagree with this classification. They might think that terrorism by Hindus is good and terrorism by others is bad. And they would not be wrong in their conclusion.

If terrorism in the name of Gujarat and Babri can go on forever, there is a strong case for good Hindu terrorism in the name of Somnath temple and other Hindu temples destroyed in the past - in keeping with the "forever" theme.

Whichever community "bends" first will have to hand victory to the other community.

This is what is happening in India. The people who want to take the fight to the streets are unsheathing their swords. That is what the political dispensation in India is begging for and that is what India is going to get.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Nov 2008 09:13

Shiv, Is this kind of posting required? One doesn't know if its in jest or in earnest? Whats the point of these. It was understandable when you were admin as you wanted fair and balance to appeal to who ever was watching. But even now?

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 11 Nov 2008 09:17

shiv:

I haven't accepted 'good terrorism' or 'bad terrorism' according to your interpretation. I was stating thus to highlight the glaring hypocrisy that was going on knowingly or unknowingly in the process. Esp where terrorism supposedly against Hindu India is categorized as IM terrorism.

And terrorism by Hindu groups like BD is categorized as work of lumpen elements. Because afterall Hindus are as described here:

"Every Indian must understand the eternal peace and stability is due to the underlying Hindu culture."

the epitome of tolerance.

If one fails to understand this primary theorem, one is faced with threat below from those epitomising tolerance:

The people who want to take the fight to the streets are unsheathing their swords

How do these things reconcile .. I fail to understand ?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Nov 2008 09:26

ramana wrote:Shiv, Is this kind of posting required? One doesn't know if its in jest or in earnest? Whats the point of these. It was understandable when you were admin as you wanted fair and balance to appeal to who ever was watching. But even now?

Ramana-ji

With the risk of coming between two elephants....

Kindly allow this Shiv-Raju samvaada for some more time. This is the kind of 'Tarka' we need on BRF in these testing times.

Their discourse is opening many minds and I sincerely hope will bring sense and strategy back into the discussion...

- A humble Disciple...

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 11 Nov 2008 09:29

ramana wrote:Shiv, Is this kind of posting required? One doesn't know if its in jest or in earnest? Whats the point of these. It was understandable when you were admin as you wanted fair and balance to appeal to who ever was watching. But even now?

let him discuss and take the idea to its conclusion .. there won't be any harm done. I assure you.

there are a few points I wish to elaborate ..

niran · Post by **niran** » 11 Nov 2008 09:33

I second RamaY. it has been a long gap, since the Islamic thread.
we Intelligence challenged people need enlitement.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Nov 2008 09:34

Raju wrote:shiv:

I haven't accepted 'good terrorism' or 'bad terrorism' according to your interpretation. I was stating thus to highlight the glaring hypocrisy that was going on knowingly or unknowingly in the process. Esp where terrorism supposedly against Hindu India is categorized as IM terrorism.

And terrorism by Hindu groups like BD is categorized as work of lumpen elements. Because afterall Hindus are as described here:

"Every Indian must understand the eternal peace and stability is due to the underlying Hindu culture."

the epitome of tolerance.

If one fails to understand this primary theorem, one is faced with threat below from those epitomising tolerance:

The people who want to take the fight to the streets are unsheathing their swords

How do these things reconcile .. I fail to understand ?

They do not reconcile and the answer is a no brainer.

Just as people have the gall to say "Islam is a religion of peace" or that "Christianty brings love and compassion to all", there are Hindus who have the gall to say

"Every Indian must understand the eternal peace and stability is due to the underlying Hindu culture."

Anyone who gets misled by any of these statements is a fool.

Hindus have remained at relative peace either because they were just plain stupid or they were really "relatively peaceful"

They are being woken up. Whether the waking up is being done by a new found economic success after years of "Hindu" failure, or by Islamic terrorist claiming that they are taking revenge against Hindu excesses, or by patently one sided "we love only Christians" behavior of the Church, or by "Hindu extremist political parties" is moot.

Every single one of these factors is coming together.

The fact that such feelings exist need to be recognized and acknowledged as a prelude for handling it sensitively. The old secular arguments are being torn down by new paradigms. And those who think they are secular need to think hard about what secularism seems like to different people. Hanging on to old definitions will lead to nasty surprises.

I find the arguments of so called "secular" people insincere and easily demolished. Indian secularism is being left behind by its blind spots. The "Hindu tolerance" of taking the rap for failure is being replaced by the arrogance of success and those who do not read the writing will fall by the wayside IMO.

India will be at peace when Indian Hindus are at peace. That is not a statement made lightly.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Nov 2008 09:35

shiv wrote: This is what is happening in India. The people who want to take the fight to the streets are unsheathing their swords. That is what the political dispensation in India is begging for and that is what India is going to get.

hmm...

Suppose our new Krishna says that 'Bad Terrorism' is bad for India and all the Arjunas stop the war and go back to Aranyavaasa... Then what happens?

Will Indian Government be able to establish Secular-Khilafat with the help of Good Terrorism only?

How do they do it? Were there any stories of this happening in Krishna's previous avataars?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Nov 2008 09:36

ramana wrote:Shiv, Is this kind of posting required? One doesn't know if its in jest or in earnest? Whats the point of these. It was understandable when you were admin as you wanted fair and balance to appeal to who ever was watching. But even now?

Patience ramana. I am answering rhetoric with rhetoric. I will answer logic with logic.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 11 Nov 2008 09:49

>> They are being woken up. Whether the waking up is being done by a new found economic success after years of Hindu failure,
>>

It is this underpinning of the new renaissance that is faulty. My understanding thus leads me to believe that Hindus were at peace (forcibly?) when they did not encounter much economic success. the lack of economic confidence thus entailed them to status-quo.

Once relative economic success was achieved Hindus shed the garb of tolerance.

So WB is relatively tolerant because it is relatively unsuccessful. Once it tastes economic success that garb can be conveniently disposed by a new generation of brats.

My take on this is that either Hindus should have been like this from the very beginning, irrespective of economic successes, and not just a change due to economic realities. Such a change seems reversible in the same context as Ayub Khan's 1965 statement:

Kick the Hindu hard, and he will run away (or something like that)

even from the point of view of extremists such a changed Hindu behaviour seems eminently reversible if economic factors be reversed.

This is an open invitation to all kinds of external factors to intervene in India to change the new attitude that has been created due to conditions that are eminently reversible. i.e economic success

How can something be sustained if factors that helped create it were temporary and convenient ?

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 11 Nov 2008 10:25

ramana wrote:Op-ed, Pioneer, 11 November, 2008
UPA's sinister designs
EDITS | Tuesday, November 11, 2008 | Email | Print |

UPA’s sinister shenanigans

Sandhya Jain

At the risk of sounding offensive, this could be viewed as the UPA’s revenge against the services on at least two counts. One was the firm refusal of both the police and the defence services to furnish the UPA Government with religion-based data on serving personnel. The second was the protest by the police and the three service chiefs against the recommendations of the Sixth Pay Commission. While the police had to pipe down, the service chiefs have proved difficult to tame.
interesting. Anybody has seen these reports or were they all subsumed by TOIlet tsunami?

I've posted this line of analysis earlier in this thread. Makes sense to me.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 11 Nov 2008 10:32

>>>I find the arguments of so called "secular" people insincere and easily demolished. Indian secularism is being left behind by its blind spots. The "Hindu tolerance" of taking the rap for failure is being replaced by the arrogance of success and those who do not read the writing will fall by the wayside IMO.
>>>

there are a lot of seculars in India. And each has a different motivation .. and that is part of the problem.

there are many angles of viewing the synthesis of India and it is just possible that many of these viewing angles offer the best view only due to their secular viewing positions.

Let me explain in detail. or try to.

A lot of times conservative parents are put to test by their young ones when they reach marriageable age and get into a relationship outside the community. If the daughter of a highly conservative Indian in US falls in love with a black person then it creates a lot of grief for the father of such a girl.

Now the daughter, right under the nose of opposition from her father decides to have her way and get hitched with the black lover. Within a short time they have a child from this relationship. After the birth of this child, the black guy decides that he's had enough of this relationship and walks away leaving his wife and child by themselves.

In a period of financial turmoil, the girl decides to return back to her parents home as she is given a pink slip at her office.

The girl's father as much as he reviles black people is faced with hobson's choice. He decides that if they have to live in the house together then he will be the one who shall take care of the baby. He feels that he has obviously some karmic defects that made his girl run away with a black man. But instead of hating or being indifferent towards the baby, he himself will look after it as a penance to redeem his defects or sins that he may have committed which led his daughter astray in his perception.

I will take responsibility, even if it's my daughter that has made a mistake by marrying someone who was not only not from within the same community but also refused to take responsibilty for their child.

the father's actions were dharmic .. in the sense that dharma requires us to turn everyone in our fold into dharmic irrespective of their origin.

he turned his hatred towards his son-in-law with love for his grandchild with a view to repent for his own mistakes or omissions that he may have made in raising his daughter. It isn't the ideal situation but the brave make the best of something that isn't ideal and do what is dharmic to repent for their mistakes and with an aim to ensure that such mistakes do not happen in future.

I know the example is slightly tricky .. but isn't this what we must be doing with Indian muslims without any reservations.
Were we forced only due to economic reasons to adopt a conciliatory approach or did we believe that as the father of the girl, it is our dharmic responsibility to take care of the begotten grandchild.

Or in the case of IM, the begotten grandchild of Islamic rule.

Or else one is faced with the situation of those who are dharmic resorting to adharma to solve their quandry, and thereby even distancing their own dharmic allies away from their fold.

Dharma is a strength, but it is also a responsibility. One must always stay close to their roots. If not the story goes nowhere and is repeated by more of the same.

To define and maintain identity of self is always important especially to make allies or converts from other ranks. If we fail to define our identity then others will be lost as well .. and then the lament arises

"Why are not Hindus taken seriously" ?

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 11 Nov 2008 10:33

narayanan wrote:See, here's the fatal weakness of the "majority community".

I am NOT "discounting the plant theory" (as I thought I stated clearly enough at the outset). But unless your arguments are designed only for the ears of admiring co-majority-community-enthusiasts, they have to stand up to counter-arguments. "Do not underestimate Army Intelligence" is not an argument that will find any intelligent takers. In fact the term "Army Intelligence" is considered an oxymoron by many in the whole Duniya, as unfair as that may be.
Let me show you how easy that is to debunk - here is a SENIOR officer, with hajaar experience in Army Intel. Can u argue that HE doesn't know how well the Army vets and monitors its own people? Does HE not know how to circumvent that, if he has any intelligence?
How did Army fail to keep track of Lt-Col’s activities?

MUMBAI: Hackles have been raised amongst the army top brass and defence ministry ever since a serving officer was arrested for links with right wing Mobile Nos, associates, blast dates, addresses... Talented terror suspect, singing even before interrogation. organisations suspected of executing a bomb attack that took several innocent lives.

If police sources are to be believed then Lt-Col Srikant Purohit was deeply involved in activities of Hindu extremist organisations for the past several years and had even conducted arms training camps for them, besides attending several conspiratorial meetings where plans for terror attacks were hatched.

The obvious question that arises now is that why did the army fail to notice Purohit’s activities, especially when it has a well placed system of keeping a watch on its men to ensure that they do not become involved with the wrong kind of elements.

‘‘Local Intelligence Units (LIUs) always keep their eyes and ears open to ensure that soldiers are not being lured by the enemy or meeting shady characters,’’ explains retired Colonel R P Tripathi.

Even minor suspicious activities such as a sudden change in living standards or frequent visits to a seedy part of town are taken note of by fellow soldiers within the unit and brought to the notice of the commanding officer (CO) who may put it down in a register.

If the reports are considered serious then the officer under suspicion may be kept under surveillance and his movements watched.

‘‘I remember once when I was posted in Rajasthan a particular soldier was found overstaying every time he went on leave. The matter was taken seriously by the CO and the local police in the soldier’s hometown was informed to keep a watch on him. It was then discovered that he was involved with some unlawful elements and was finally dismissed from service,’’ says a retired officer.

In 1998 the army headquarter at Delhi even sent out a circular to all units saying that matters connected with security aspects should be discussed in detail at every monthly ‘Sainik Sammelan’ which is attended by all ranks.

For N^3 and all four year olds on this forum on "Army Intelligence is Oxymoron" thing.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Nov 2008 10:36

narayanan wrote:Aha! So the BJP does an elaborate frame-up, but then also gets its agents to "confess" readily, so that the minority-appeasing (I mean, "secular") government is discredited. An elaborate Hindootva plot to win majority in next election, no doubt. Is this Chankian or what?

N^3, This is unneccessary. I understand you have an agenda but this type of posts and with your admin status? I suggest no more of this type of flame baits.

Thanks, ramana

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Nov 2008 10:43

Raju wrote:>> They are being woken up. Whether the waking up is being done by a new found economic success after years of Hindu failure,
>>

It is this underpinning of the new renaissance that is faulty. My understanding thus leads me to believe that Hindus were at peace (forcibly?) when they did not encounter much economic success. the lack of economic confidence thus entailed them to status-quo.

Once relative economic success was achieved Hindus shed the garb of tolerance.

So WB is relatively tolerant because it is relatively unsuccessful. Once it tastes economic success that garb can be conveniently disposed by a new generation of brats.

My take on this is that either Hindus should have been like this from the very beginning, irrespective of economic successes, and not just a change due to economic realities. Such a change seems reversible in the same context as Ayub Khan's 1965 statement:

Kick the Hindu hard, and he will run away (or something like that)

even from the point of view of extremists such a changed Hindu behaviour seems eminently reversible if economic factors be reversed.

This is an open invitation to all kinds of external factors to intervene in India to change the new attitude that has been created due to conditions that are eminently reversible. i.e economic success

How can something be sustained if factors that helped create it were temporary and convenient ?

Raju - about the specific case of west Bengal - I cannot comment or agree. I don't know. Putting your views on Bengal in that post should not have been done, and I exclude that part of your post from my reply.

But otherwise every single point that you have made may well be perfectly true. It is only if anyone does not want to believe it (cognitive dissonance) that there is a problem.

In fact what you say may well explain why Hindus and Hinduism survived at all while all those pagan and kafir faiths were wiped off the face of the earth in Africa, Europe and America.

Hindus will bend into submission when that is the way to go. They may well spring back into domination if that is expedient (although this remains a hypothesis). We don't know exactly what Hindus will do - but it is feared that they will be "fascist".

Hindus were not "united" in the past. They were full of divisions but they were capable of bending, lacking any single ideology to stick to and murder for.

Every single one of the "divisions" that Hindus have already been recognised, classified, labelled, dissected and utilised by various forces whom you say will (in future) be "an open invitation to all kinds of external factors to intervene in India to change the new attitude that has been created due to conditions that are eminently reversible. i.e economic success"

It has always been that way. There is nothing new. Hindus have been subjected to this anyway and even that fact has been " recognised, classified, labelled, dissected"

So what has changed?

My view is as follows:

The "recognised, classified, labelled, dissected" divisions of Hindu society led to a variety of corrective measures in pre-independence India. Some were mandated by British law, some were changed by Hindus. The seeds of Hindu homogenization were sown in the pre-independence era. Sinking of Hindu differences was hard-coded into the Indian constitution after independence. And India's economic and cultural growth has come in the shadow of that Hindu homogenization in which great effort has gone into removing all those inter-Hindu differences.

Hindutva today is the rise of the prosperous and homogenized Hindu - many of whom would, in an earlier era have been suppressed and utilised by other Hindus. Even the Hindu capitulation of the past and the tall Hindu claim of tolerance are not labels that can be attached to the newly powerful Hindu.

Ayub Khan's claim about Hindus may well have been true - I have written examples of minor incidents in which it can be shown that he was right in a sense from his narrow viewpoint. But as always, things move and events of History change perspective.

The victorious Mughals are now a failed nation whose mujahids are mere terroists. The nation of people who "were ruled for 1000 years" are now a bunch of newly empowered and arrogant people.

Trying to reconcile the perspectives and cliches of the past with realities of today only lead to confusion and cognitive dissonance.

munna · Post by **munna** » 11 Nov 2008 10:55

Exactly Shivji! Love your arguments. A little tit bit about the homogenization of Hindus is that in RSS and other so called communal organizations you are not allowed to address a fellow Sanghi by his full name i.e. if someone has a name of Ram Kumar then you can only address him as Ramji. This has been continuing for years and has done tremendous good in the field of negating caste as a cause of division within the so called communal organizations.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Nov 2008 10:59

Raju wrote: but isn't this what we must be doing with Indian muslims without any reservations.

....

To define and maintain identity of self is always important especially to make allies or converts from other ranks. If we fail to define our identity then others will be lost as well .. and then the lament arises

"Why are not Hindus taken seriously" ?

Raju it is purely rhetorical to add the "Hindus not taken seriously" point in this post. Hindus as individuals do not really care much for the question as long as they have clout. The bigger the clout the more seriously they get taken.

So the bottom line is for the Hindu to find "clout". When he finds clout he will be taken seriously.

The Hindu is finding clout now and wants to be taken seriously. He will spoil your party if you don't do that. before you allow this new, powerful and arrogant Hindu to spoil your party ask if you have been unfair to him in any way? That would be dharmic wouldn't it?

Is the Hindu lying when he insists that his temples were destroyed in the past?

His grandfather told him about that, and that grandfather heard it from his own grandfather. Why should this newly empowered Hindu not ask for at least an answer as to why the words of his forefathers is being declared as a lie because of a convoluted story like the one you have written. Of course Muslims are and will be accepted. But should they be accepted with lies?

Let me quote what you wrote

To define and maintain identity of self is always important especially to make allies or converts from other ranks. If we fail to define our identity then others will be lost as well .. and then the lament arises

By lying about Hindu history, secular India is already destroying Hindu identity. Then what sort of fresh identity are you talking about after killing the old one?

How about teaching history as it really was rather than teaching fake history with a concocted reason for why that history must be faked? There is an open threat here. The Hindu who did not have clout now has clout. If you do not answer him he will spoil your party.

What does your dharma tell you about this situation?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 11 Nov 2008 11:21

shiv wrote:
Raju wrote: So the bottom line is for the Hindu to find "clout". When he finds clout he will be taken seriously.

The Hindu is finding clout now and wants to be taken seriously. He will spoil your party if you don't do that. before you allow this new, powerful and arrogant Hindu to spoil your party ask if you have been unfair to him in any way? That would be dharmic wouldn't it?

Is the Hindu lying when he insists that his temples were destroyed in the past?

His grandfather told him about that, and that grandfather heard it from his own grandfather. Why should this newly empowered Hindu not ask for at least an answer as to why the words of his forefathers is being declared as a lie because of a convoluted story like the one you have written. Of course Muslims are and will be accepted. But should they be accepted with lies?

How about teaching history as it really was rather than teaching fake history with a concocted reason for why that history must be faked? There is an open threat here. The Hindu who did not have clout now has clout. If you do not answer him he will spoil your party.

What does your dharma tell you about this situation?

The memory of past supression is as fresh in Hindu mind as it happened yesterday . Question is how long this can be ignored and it is bound to spill over with some real anger at real or perceived enemy. United Hindus is what Swami Vivekananda envisioned as Vedantic in Mind and Islamic in Body . Coming to BR, i can say his prediction has partly come true. Here we have many Hindus from different walk of life and parts of India yet their minds are attuned at same frequency , just as being acused by know it all people. Mind part is done and Body part of his vision will come true too.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 11 Nov 2008 11:31

>> Hindutva today is the rise of the prosperous and homogenized Hindu - many of whom would, in an earlier era have been suppressed and utilised by other Hindus. Even the Hindu capitulation of the past and the tall Hindu claim of tolerance are not labels that can be attached to the newly powerful Hindu.
>>

And we hope that this prosperous and homogenized version will succeed where the others past have failed. Mind you they may well do.

But in my mind, there are still a few doubts of this impending success created on basis of this clout. Since in my reasoning this newly found clout is largely maya created by a new kind of judeo-christian elite led economic imperialism. The underpinnings of this newly gained economic clout are not solid nor well-defined for each and everyone to see. What is the economic deal between India and the west .. I am unsure.

What is the nuclear deal between India and the rest .. yet again I am unsure.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 11 Nov 2008 11:37

What does your dharma tell you about this situation?

In a war against the adharmic any method is justified. The role of Dharma in a war only arises when the war is against another group of dharmics themselves.

But once the mlechcha is within the fold, you must treat them as you treat a fellow dharmic and convert them to dharma. For we shall not wage a war against anyone within our fold.

Why cannot 80% of Arya who practise dharma convert 20% to their way of life ? Is it a failure of the 80% or is it a failure of the 20%.

-------

Let's say I create an organisation .. a trust which runs many schools in the country.
the trust is supposed to function on the basis of an ideology that I hold dear to my heart.

But after a while, the trust falls into wrong hands and situation is out of my control.
the ideology with which the trust was created also changes in due course.
these gentlemen who run the trust and thereby the school soon run into some trouble and fall foul of the authorities.
they need help to solve their problem.

are they justified to expect my help ??

In short can we turn to adharma as we feel convenient and yet expect divine help when need arises ?

munna · Post by **munna** » 11 Nov 2008 11:47

I think the rise of the Hindu capitalist class has been the single most important reason of the growth of the Homogenized Hindu Identity (H.H.I). After the 1847 revolt Hindus who were the traditional money lending and trading classes due to the Islamic injunction against sud khori (rent/interest earnings) suddenly discovered that in a modern world money was a very important power tool and thus power was money. Indian nationalism and independence movement was actively supported by the capitalist class of India despite some of our leaders being leftist loonies. After independence Nehruvian politics and economics actively sought to throttle the capitalist class in India and castrate them into being profiteers and rentiers. Again from 1986 onwards when the Indian economic liberalization (yes 1986 by R Gandhi and not 1990-91 is the start date for reforms) we saw a resurgence in the right wing politics that the FAKE SECULARS were unable to explain away by their false history.
Cut across to 2008 is it any surprise that the most capitalistic and enterprising of our states (Gujarat) is at loggerheads with the HFLs and Fake Seculars??

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Nov 2008 14:18

Raju wrote: Why cannot 80% of Arya who practise dharma convert 20% to their way of life ? Is it a failure of the 80% or is it a failure of the 20%.

This is a bait and switch.

However the problem is not 80% dharmic needing to convert 20% adharmic - which is the secular persons version of "the story so far"

Many of the 20% are more dharmic than many of the 80%.

But it suits self styled "secular" people to define Hindutva as "80% dharmic fighting 20 % adharmic" because of the double advantage of the statement being a taunt at the lack of success of Hindutva as well as defining a baseline of 80:20 Hindu bigotry except for the seculars of course.

The definition suits you and you use it in that way, and utilize the statements of a subset of the 80% who say things that suit your viewpoint.

This is why the problem is not Muslims, but the fake secularists. The fake seculars run with the hares and hunt with the hounds. The hares (the Muslims) will get hunted down by the hounds - the majority Hindus, adding fuel to the secular accusation that Hindus are bigots and need to subscribe to a cooked up version of history as defined by the seculars in order to be "taken seriously". But the secularists themselves remain detached from this mess - ready to hold the moral high ground no matter whether the hares win or the hounds win. This fake secularism and its supporters need to have their foundations cut from beneath them and that is why they are so upset about Hindutva starting to do exactly that.

Muslims have not prevented the writing of history accurately, and they will not be able to prevent it. It is the fake secularists of India who make up a fake Hindu history and fake identity which they claim is being destroyed by Hindutva. Wiping out fake secularism will likely improve relations between Hindus and Muslims. Both groups are straight talkers and will talk straight to each other without the faking of history, faking of identity and general fake liberalism that Indian secularism has survived on for 60 years.

I am as ignorant of the future as you are. But I know the way forward.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 11 Nov 2008 14:30

But I know the way forward.

Best of luck.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Nov 2008 14:37

deleted by self

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 11 Nov 2008 14:41

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Nov 2008 19:14

shiv wrote:Muslims have not prevented the writing of history accurately, and they will not be able to prevent it. It is the fake secularists of India who make up a fake Hindu history and fake identity which they claim is being destroyed by Hindutva. Wiping out fake secularism will likely improve relations between Hindus and Muslims. Both groups are straight talkers and will talk straight to each other without the faking of history, faking of identity and general fake liberalism that Indian secularism has survived on for 60 years.

IMHO... this is a gem! True seekers are well advised to keep this in mind while analyzing any Indian issue.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 11 Nov 2008 19:36

Aha! A thread with an Opportunity for Enlightened Moderation! Would you gents pls go back to debating your points of view, both of which are excellent? Don't wish either one anything, and I would also appreciate it if u would pls delete the posts with these wishes etc. The politeness is just too out of place in a nice heated discussion. I KNEW it! All these rules by these young, inexperienced Admins requiring politeness etc. lead only to unhealthy repression of expression.

I think you agree on the substantive issues (meaning the ones where disagreement drives ppl to pull the cord on the BakPak). You don't have to agree on the others, but ppl would very much appreciate both points of view.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 11 Nov 2008 20:26

RamaY wrote:
shiv wrote:Muslims have not prevented the writing of history accurately, and they will not be able to prevent it. It is the fake secularists of India who make up a fake Hindu history and fake identity which they claim is being destroyed by Hindutva. Wiping out fake secularism will likely improve relations between Hindus and Muslims. Both groups are straight talkers and will talk straight to each other without the faking of history, faking of identity and general fake liberalism that Indian secularism has survived on for 60 years.
IMHO... this is a gem! True seekers are well advised to keep this in mind while analyzing any Indian issue.

I have always felt... that religious people of India need to get together and become the moral majority. I mean religious desi Christians (not the evangelical kind), The religious Muslims (not the Wahhabi Islamist kind) with garden variety religious Hindu. This group needs to become the moral majority and flag bearers in India and not the Anti Hindu, commie fake Secularists. This coming from me a not so religious person.

The problems the religious Christians and religious Muslims have created is by joining with the Anti Hindu fake secularists against regular garden variety religious Hindus.

The anti Hindu fake secularists are the deadly enemies in India. They are the ones creating religious wars between Christians and Hindus. Between Muslims and Hindus. All patriots need to treat this deadly group with extreme prejudice!

Evangelicals (primarily foreign institutions) are not part of this equation. Thats a different issue that needs to be dealt with like how we have to deal with Pakistan and its sympathizers in India.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Nov 2008 20:37

shiv wrote:
This is why the problem is not Muslims, but the fake secularists. The fake seculars run with the hares and hunt with the hounds. The hares (the Muslims) will get hunted down by the hounds - the majority Hindus, adding fuel to the secular accusation that Hindus are bigots and need to subscribe to a cooked up version of history as defined by the seculars in order to be "taken seriously". But the secularists themselves remain detached from this mess - ready to hold the moral high ground no matter whether the hares win or the hounds win. This fake secularism and its supporters need to have their foundations cut from beneath them and that is why they are so upset about Hindutva starting to do exactly that.

Long ago - I had written in a thread on "gaming islam" the following words about Hindu "doves' who survived as dhimmis by not fighting against a superior force.

Doves of Hindu society can tolerate and harbor a class of hawks to do the fighting, but at the same time they can be bitterly critical of their own hawks. This is a win win scenario because if their hawks win, they will not be killed by Hindu hawks for their criticism. But if their hawks lose, their behavior already displays what is needed from dhimmis, so that they can survive as dhimmis.

As a survival strategy, the changing of ones own history and the changing of one's identity are both useful.

Secularism was good for survival, and still remains the best strategy for getting along with all Indians. But there is no need to stick to a false narration of history and a fake identity based on falsified history.

Along with "Hindus are vegetarian" and I would add other false and cooked up markers of a fake Hindu identity that do not fit in with reality

"Hindus are tolerant" (More tolerant than others of any damn thing)
"Hindus believe in ahimsa"

These are Gandhian defined "Hindu" traits which have been internalized as convenient adjuncts to Indian secularism. All may be true to an extent, but applying the brush to all Hindus is wrong. And if a Hindu trait does not apply to all Hindus it should not be bandied about as a general defining characteristic. Once you start living a series of lies, the number of falsehoods you can allow in to define yourself is limitless. And so Hindus become poor keepers of historical records, and as a corollary, Hindus can be relied upon to forget the history of a land that their forefathers lived on for millennia.

It should not be a general Hindu problem if an Indian wants to forget past actions of his own ancestors for whatever reason. But applying the falsehoods that arise from that should not be made into a completely cooked up version of history as has been done in India.

After all Hindus do remember, or are made to remember what the ancestors of today's privileged castes did to other Hindus starting from the remote past - from Manu's time in fact. Why then should it be so difficult to recall the relatively recent events of the entry of Islam in to India. Neither Hindus nor Muslims should feel afraid to face their own history.

With secular historians writing history books - our children are not even taught about the 1971 massacre of 3 million Hindus and others in Bangladesh by the Pakistani army. When it comes to terrorism, there appears to be a very sharp memory of Hindu actions 5 or 10 years ago. But the terrorist deaths of last month and the month vefore that and the month before that, each seemingly provoked every time by "Gujarat" or "Babri Masjid" are forgotten as the secularists fall over themselves to rail Hindus for their errors.

Who is faking history? The "secularists" or Hindutvadis?

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 11 Nov 2008 21:16

There is another story going on in the background.

History in long-term is a continuum and not a series of sporadic events. Let us for a moment suppose that the God/s who created Hindus was different from the 'vengeful God' of the Christians or Islamists.

This is as much a fight between Gods as it is a fight between men. A fight that has gone on from beginning of history. Three yugas were given to the Deva and one yuga was given to the Asura/Naga to prove their worth. That the latter started their Yuga by purging history and creating their own history is a story in itself. Aryavarta was weakened and invaded countless times, it was not a weakness but it was destined. This is the true origin of 'false history' and not any 'fake-seculars' from India though the angst is otherwise understandable. This has been a long running game. Earth is a divine playground where two competing ideologies are being tested. The Aryavarta is supposed to fight with the aim to uphold Dharma and the Asura/Naga is supposed to fight on basis of deception, falsehood, Maya, and Adharma.

The Gods who created Hindus believed in spirituality, healing, piousness and humanity. In short it was not a 'vengeful God'.
This God gave humanity Ayurveda, Samskara, Dharma, Pravrutti etc. The deep sense of justice and the desire not to harm living beings comes from this source .. and it is not a source of weakness as is being currently interpreted.

how will those that were created by this God fare, when they begin to mirror and aspire to emulate the behaviour of those who belong to the 'vengeful God' of the semites and those who belong to the desert ? Should they even try to copy this ?

Can a Hindu reverse from his basic code, and still succeed ?

In absence of this knowledge and as a result of fake education, modern urban Hindus who innately wish to be inclusive wonder critically at merits of ahimsa, satvikta

Why is this desire to be inclusive in the Hindu being seen as a weakness or dhimmitude or as behaviour of doves who bow down to a superior fighting force.

While this could be true of certain quarters .. one cannot explain away the behaviour of the vast majority in this paradigm. People will behave as God created them willed them to behave. That is why the 'Hawk-dove' paradigm fails to explain this inclusive, accomodative behaviour.

All Hindus who do not wish to take up the sword against supposedly duplicitous minorities might not be doing so because they lack a choice or have been forced to become dhimmis in order to survive during rapid series of alien rule but because of the basic code that he was created with.

The Hindu will take the sword in due course, not due to temporary or convenient factors but because they will need to re-establish dharma and what is just on earth. They shall be the army of righteousness. And they shall win.