MiG-21 News & Discussion

Vikram_S
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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Vikram_S » 09 Nov 2008 01:55

Lalmohan wrote:i saw a mig21 once from up close and it was astonishingly small. the airframe design is fantastic, it flies at mach 2+, has good dogfighting performance and now great radar, jammers and missiles. it still lacks endurance, but with inflight refueling should be capable of long CAP and not just point defence

as long as there is life in the airframe, we should keep this bird flying


bison does not have IFR
pls be aware that with 1 centerline tank, 3 missiles and 1 jamming pod, it is still a limited fighter

its radar is comparable to apg-68 early blocks version 5 etc and equal to mirage grifo m radars but it is still no bars
of course the combo of jammer plus kopyo21 and low rcs mean it can meet apg 68 equipped fighters on good terms such as block 50 f-16s and less sophisticated planes like jf-17s which will be equipped with older gen chinese avionics

but its biggest problem is range

this is a slash and attack plane
not a dedicate bvr plane like MKI

which can carry 11 AAM plus jammer and still have greater than 2500 km range and IFR

Austin
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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Austin » 09 Nov 2008 10:37

the assumption you make here is that mki has had not similar treatment as bison
pls read on mki to know more from electronic defense online
kopyo 21 range for mki target is just not enough


Unless the treatment paint is from Mars or some special DRDO developed one which can make a plane disappear from radar , the fundamentals of the aircraft will not favour the MKI , the gains achieved by MKI by any RCS treatment will be limited at best.

Its still a Huge aircraft and had directly exposed fans the nemesis , which will make it glow on the radar screen.

Compare that with Bison which is a small aircraft and has no directly exposed engine , the gains with RCS treatment are significant

When they say that the F-15 would not be aware of Bison till the last moment till it sneaked in , shows how significant achievement this means for Bison

second pls be aware of drfm based jamming and what it will do a radar like kopyo21, when it can handle radars like APg63


Can any thing prevent a DRFM jammer being equipped on a Bison now or in the future?

n DACT MKI can see bison from extreme range testifying to bars capability and it has the ability to disengage as it when it wanst thanks to combination of payload and range


Comparing the two aircraft is like comparing a Truck and a sleek race car , when it comes to defending its own turf , the Bison can give a bloody nose to any one

Vikram_S
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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Vikram_S » 09 Nov 2008 20:00

austin,

all your comments would not come if you see both flanker systems (andrei fomin book on su-27 flanker) and radar system

Unless the treatment paint is from Mars or some special DRDO developed one which can make a plane disappear from radar , the fundamentals of the aircraft will not favour the MKI , the gains achieved by MKI by any RCS treatment will be limited at best.


wrong statement, no 4th,4+ gen fighter aims for vlo but optimised lo over +/- 60 degree, ie frontal arc

the mki actually has advantage over bison without any RCS treatment thanks to its large power aperture (980 mm) bars radar

RAM treatement for su-27 class fighters brings down frontal rcs to medium-low fighter class, this is well documented

given huge difference between bars and kopyo for bison in power and power apeture the latter needs every km of range it can squeeze out

radar performance is dictate by aperture size, power, gain and signal processing
decreases in anyone of these and your set suffers
bison suffers vs bars in each parameter

vs pak f-16 it is ok..that is about it


Its still a Huge aircraft and had directly exposed fans the nemesis , which will make it glow on the radar screen.


are you even understanding of bison kopyo-21 radar range? its a msa with xx km range against x sq mtr target

su-27 class fighter untreated will still be detected at lower range than a pesa bars detecting and tracking kopyo.

it might work against first gen chinese msa radars like that on j-11 and small size radars with same problem on f-16s but not against the bars

i am not even getting into basics which you seem to be totally unaware of such as msa stt for precision tracking, lock on range and detection range and difference in dwell time of pesa beam
in all these kopyo loses badly

a pesa radar can begin tracking almost immediate
kopyo, apg-68 cannot they require several scans to build up track file and for msa that takes time
bars can scan in milli sec within dedicated tws sector

also around that nose cone are direct inlet to fan for bison also
and sukhoi treatment see previously

Compare that with Bison which is a small aircraft and has no directly exposed engine , the gains with RCS treatment are significant


i have to laugh out loud here
what gains with rcs treatment making bison magic

do you think the bison went to sub 1 sq mtr levels?

its still limited to 1 sq mtr-the practical limit established by ram treatment without dedicated edge form alignment which is hallmarks of true stealth

at 1 sq mtr, the bison profile is clearly within bars envelope even while untreated mki will remain out of bison envelope

pls do a basic calculation for tracking ranges and get your answer

fyi, ram usage and some optimization gets fighter to around 1 sq mtr level (clean: examples are EF, rafale) and heavier old gen fighters get to medium size class (5 sq mtr level)

When they say that the F-15 would not be aware of Bison till the last moment till it sneaked in , shows how significant achievement this means for Bison


it only shows your lack of aware of f-15 systems

let us not get overblown by USAF pilot comments

f-15 has apg-63 radar with msa with limitation in detection and tracking, same actually with most msa system, including newer apg-63 version or apg-68

try the bison stunt with latest apg-63v2 radar equipped f-15 then we will see
because it can refocus beam and saturate area with energy in very short time to put it simply

the bison is good against paki/chinese fighters including latest j-11/su-30mkk but its not magic

Can any thing prevent a DRFM jammer being equipped on a Bison now or in the future?


are you even unware that elta 8222 is already a drfm jammer and it is already on bison

btw elta is a limited SPj jet whcih cannot totally combat a high power set like bars (which has dedicated channel for eccm) :eek:

Comparing the two aircraft is like comparing a Truck and a sleek race car , when it comes to defending its own turf , the Bison can give a bloody nose to any one


common sir again this has to be a joke of the century and if you actually believe this even more funny

compared to sukhoi bison is an embarassment

we are flying it because we got to
lets not make virtue of out necessity

the sukhoi can outrun, outfly (fuel), out carry payload and outdetect it

"on its own turf"- yes, with a limited war with pakistan or china with lot of support

if the enemy refused to engage your bisons will be running back to AFB on bingo fuel tails firmly tucked between legs without IFR

in cope india, sukhois were acting as long range search (awacs) and voice vectoring bisons

without sukhois both side would be blind men groping

in kkd exercise you may ask what happened to "bison" vs RSAF and you should get your answer
Last edited by Vikram_S on 09 Nov 2008 20:41, edited 1 time in total.

Rahul M
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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 09 Nov 2008 20:11

vikram_s much as we appreciate your knowledgeable take on affairs it would help immensely if you could try and be civil on the forum.
this is not the rediff message board and derisive posts are NOT welcome here.
consider this to be an unofficial warning.

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Vikram_S » 09 Nov 2008 20:21

dear rahulm.

point out what is derisive?

if somebody posts 2+2=5 do you expect me to sit and explain what is maths?

statement made without basic knowledge of radar system or flanker capability are welcome?

and this is not derisive"

"bison is racehorse and mki is truck"

what is next:

:my fighter is best you suck"

------------------

btw for those getting high because the USAF pilot praised bison try to understand point of USAF lecture

against even apg-63v2 equip f-15 the bison drfm jammer has one advantage despite being detected early

it can reduce pk of amraam

amraam seeker runs on battery not on electrical system able to sustain many kw peak power
that is why bison can be "useful" as amrram pk reduces and it is a problem for fighters as they have to get to merge where bison can be useful @ small size and with HOBS archer missiles

but against prepared opponent like IAF sukhoi with full warload of multiple missiles (RVVAE, R72ER, r27te) bisons will be at severe disadvantage

bisons will need awacs support to truly be useful against 4,5 gen fighters like sukhoi mki and even then 1 big weakness is there

range

this is basic problem of bison mig-21 airframe

in old days uk made this awesome fighters

one was lightning

it had best airframe performance and people were sitting and saying wow

the other joke was you wait till he does his airshow and falls out of the sky

that is bisons problem as well

all i am saying is bison is good, yes and in indian hands it is capable of many surprises

but dont let it become a superfighter in your imaginations

against a heavy opponent like china it still has disadvantage that can be exploited

that is why iaf will say bye bye bison in 2020 and be away from mig-21 series foreveer

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 09 Nov 2008 20:29

and this is not derisive"

"bison is racehorse and mki is truck"

derisive wrt another poster.
point is on an internet forum like this posters are valued on the information they impart w/o treading on others' toes.
you have edited your post and I'm dropping this issue.

Vikram_S
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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Vikram_S » 09 Nov 2008 20:37

jamwal wrote:Narayanan saar taking his new duty quite seriously :D
I was surprised to see all these old threads on 1st page


Apart from that, has anybody read Brother's Keeper by Jim Deflice?
It has interesting ideas on modifying a Mig 21 to be completely invisible on radar. Its pulp fiction :oops: for sure, but still am curious to know if its possible.
Following changes were made in the Mig in that book
"Tail section a jagged circle angling slighly upwards instead of a conventional wings-and-fin arrangement. Its main wings had tirangular cuts in them, sharp indentations that looked like oversized sawteeth on trailing edges.."
.."Its was designed to be nearly invisible.The odd shape of rear helped. So did the coating of plasticized carbon hybrid over the entire surface including the canopy...
biggest advantage came from an array of antennas installed throughout the fuselage and controlled by a device about the size of a large lunc pail in the avionics bay. The device was able to detect and mimic different radar patterns, effectively blanking an enemy radar.'
(I guess this last thing is the toughest part :P )


He is talking of active radar cancellation

till date only one fighter is spoken of for ARC that is rafale spectra

but if we see how much computing power + jamming coverage + complexity it will require to make this reality, it sounds like internet hype (even though article was from renowned bill sweetman)

f-22 was supposed to have ARC/ jamming but was dropped because it is against basic concept of stealthy fighter and we had 20500 articles on how f-22 is not needing jamming

now with new AESA mw and ong wave radars, and tracking resolutions steadily increasing, americans are thinking of what can jam them to get f-22 safe :mrgreen: :rotfl:

Vikram_S
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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Vikram_S » 09 Nov 2008 20:40

Rahul M wrote:
and this is not derisive"

"bison is racehorse and mki is truck"

derisive wrt another poster.
point is on an internet forum like this posters are valued on the information they impart w/o treading on others' toes.
you have edited your post and I'm dropping this issue.


ok understood, i will drop this discussion as well

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby maitya » 11 Nov 2008 03:27

Vikram_S wrote:bison does not have IFR
pls be aware that with 1 centerline tank, 3 missiles and 1 jamming pod, it is still a limited fighter
...
but its biggest problem is range

True - also regarding range, IIRC, the UPG program initially included an requirement of deepening of the spine so that the internal fuel volume can be increased - which, for some reason, was later dropped.

Rahul M
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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 11 Nov 2008 07:10

doesn't the bis airframe already feature a broadened spine or am I confusing with some other model ?
IIRC then this upg might not have been cost-effective.

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Lalmohan » 11 Nov 2008 19:30

Rahul M wrote:doesn't the bis airframe already feature a broadened spine or am I confusing with some other model ?
IIRC then this upg might not have been cost-effective.


it does have a bigger dorsal spine, but then so did the bis. I recall the need to put more fuel into the bis dorsals, but perhaps the bison has replaced fuel with more electronics

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby Yogi_G » 16 Jan 2009 08:39

How the Taliban got the Mig-21

Global Security provides some count on mig-21

I have been trying to get some info on the lone mig-21 which was operated by Taliban, the last I heard was that this operational mig-21 was used on NA in late 90's. They must have cannibalized planes to keep it operational....I wonder what happened to it....

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Re: MiG-21 News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 16 Jan 2009 10:31

Rahul M wrote:doesn't the bis airframe already feature a broadened spine or am I confusing with some other model ?
IIRC then this upg might not have been cost-effective.


Differences listed here
http://www.bharatrakshak.com/IAF/Images ... iG21Bison/


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