Indian Missile Technology Discussion

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 12 Nov 2008 15:27

Per news reports the K-15 carries a one tonne payload over 700+ Km. Now given the dimensions of the missile and conservative figures that range seems low. But even so, we are looking at around 1700+ Km range for payload around 500 Kg. And that seems pretty neat in my book.

-Vivek

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Nov 2008 15:43

..and add to the range the extra distance if the missile is coated with the latest "chromium" paint that allegedly doubles the range of any missile coated with it due to reduced drag.The interesting detail is the diameter of the missile (half a metre).This is a very compact dimension and could see a large number of missiles aboard out future subs.

narayana · Post by **narayana** » 12 Nov 2008 16:23

Shourya test-fired

Shourya Picture 1
Shourya Picture 2

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 12 Nov 2008 16:49

Nice pics! A brahmos type body, nose cap and metal nose cone.

Hariprasad · Post by **Hariprasad** » 12 Nov 2008 17:02

narayana wrote: Shourya Picture 1

Looks like a raging bull heading for the matador.

So why do we have a canister again for the land launched version?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Nov 2008 17:05

Philip wrote:..and add to the range the extra distance if the missile is coated with the latest "chromium" paint that allegedly doubles the range of any missile coated with it due to reduced drag.The interesting detail is the diameter of the missile (half a metre).This is a very compact dimension and could see a large number of missiles aboard out future subs.

I've my doubts that the chromium research would provide deployable technology within a few months of it being announced.

I wonder what was the need to replace the Agni-1 type, more range perhaps ?

maz, it seems genuine, it's a GoI portal.

edit: some details about targeting and nav instruments would be nice !

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 12 Nov 2008 17:18

seems to be around 10m long and 1m diameter? comparing to size of the 2-storey house.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 12 Nov 2008 17:25

Rahul M wrote:I wonder what was the need to replace the Agni-1 type, more range perhaps ?

Rahul, check the diameter difference between the Agni-1 and K-15 missiles. The K-15 is a lot thinner and compact. I am guessing it has a lot to do with the advancement in materials technology since the days of Agni-1 design work that allows for such changes. So now you have a missile that is much more compact and therefore easier to handle but with roughly the same range. But having said that, the Agni-1 would still be needed to bridge the gap between Agni-2 and Shaurya series etc.

-Vivek

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 12 Nov 2008 17:44

Agni-I has a range of 800Km to 1200Km & Shourya has a range of 650Km . How do you say Shourya will replace Agni-I?

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 12 Nov 2008 17:57

narayana wrote:Shourya Picture 1

The hydrodynamic thruster cap surely means that this missile has been designed for underwater launch. But what is that pink exhaust emanating from the top of the booster (?). Is it a leaking booster?

Cheers...

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 12 Nov 2008 18:01

Can it be modified version of AAD i.e. using the same motor?

Also for SSM role, why use a complicated system like fly off cap & 2 stages rather single stage + lateral firing rockets built into the body of the missile itself like Agni-3??

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 12 Nov 2008 18:04

I doubt the "Shourya" missile is a "surface to surface" missile as the Press Release claims. The whole things looks like it was meant as a SLBM with its toned down size and its ejecting nose cap and the weird rocket motor attachment at the base. They probably just wanted to test the missile in air to see if all the mechanisms worked fine and in the proper order before an underwater test.

I doubt they will replace the Agni-1's with this missile for surface to surface roles. The Agni-1 is cheaper to make and they already have the manufacturing technology worked out for it. I think the next test would be for them to launch this missile from an underwater platform and another test from the real deal.

I think one can also see the whole "chromium vapor" drag reduction thing they were talking about with the nose cone on the second picture.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 12 Nov 2008 18:39

Now these are completely different systems, but can you see the similarity.

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 12 Nov 2008 18:55

India successfully test fires 'Shaurya' missile
http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... le/384746/

Posted: Nov 12, 2008 at 1552 hrs IST

Balasore (Orissa), November 12: India successfully test fired 'Shaurya', a medium-range surface-to-surface ballistic missile, to be used by its Army. With a 600-km range, the missile is capable of hitting targets deep inside Pakistan and China.

The indigenous missile was launched from an underground facility with an in-built canister at 11.25 am from Complex-3 of the Integrated Test Range at Chandipur, DRDO sources said in Balasore (Orissa).

The sleek missile, with a flight duration of 485 seconds, roared into the sky leaving behind a thick yellow and white smoke on a clear sunny day, they added.

The sophisticated tactical missile is capable of carrying conventional warheads with a payload of about one tonne. "With longer shelf-life, as it is stored in a canister just like the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile, the Shaurya is easily transportable and user-friendly. This is a technology development project," DRDO sources said in New Delhi.

Though there was speculation that the missile was a land version of the under development K-15 submarine launched ballistic missile, DRDO sources said the surface-to-surface missile had nothing to do with K-15 'Sagarika' project.

"The missile was test fired from a 30-40 feet deep pit with in-built canister specially designed for the purpose. There was no water in the pit," the sources said.

"The test was conducted to check some of the vital parameters of Shaurya missile," the DRDO sources said. The solid propellant, two-staged missile is little over 10 metres in length and about half-a-metre in width, they said.

During the test, the missile took off vertically and its entire trajectory was tracked through an integrated system of sophisticated radars, electro-optical tracking instruments, a chain of telemetry stations positioned in different points and two naval ships placed close to the impact point deep in the Bay of Bengal.

As a precautionary measure, the district administration of Balasore temporarily evacuated 364 families residing within two km radius of the launch site and took them to safety at a nearby shelter before the missile test.

The launch of Shaurya has come nearly nine months after India had successfully tested the 'Sagarika' missile under the K-15 project this February off the coast of Visakhapatnam from a pontoon simulating the conditions of a submarine.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 12 Nov 2008 18:58

Brando wrote:I think one can also see the whole "chromium vapor" drag reduction thing they were talking about with the nose cone on the second picture.

The chromium vapour drag reduction comes into play during reentry and the nose of this missile has a typical aero spike for drag reduction.

Cheers....

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 12 Nov 2008 19:08

The sophisticated tactical missile is capable of carrying conventional warheads with a payload of about one tonne.

I guess the Defence guys have really started to read Vivek's scenerios. Keep up the good job Vivek and write some more scary chinki stuff. It will surely help the speedy induction of Nirbhay.

Cheers....

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 12 Nov 2008 19:45

So if this is not the K-15 Sagarika SLBM , is this a new system for the army .?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Nov 2008 19:54

check out the ToI video, and you may pause to see the silo launch.

great!.. congrats.

shetty · Post by **shetty** » 12 Nov 2008 19:54

On the news I heard them say that this will replace the Prithvi. 250 - 350 km vs 600 km ??? Doesn't make sense. Some explanation required.

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 12 Nov 2008 20:04

I think if they remove the booster then the range - weight - length will come down to somthing near Prithvi replacement

arun · Post by **arun** » 12 Nov 2008 20:06

Photo of the Shourya from the PIB website :

Shourya Pic

Guess this is national property and thus free to use

.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 12 Nov 2008 20:12

arun wrote:Photo of the Shourya from the PIB website :

Shourya Pic

Guess this is national property and thus free to use .

Hmm, is it cold launch? I don't see any 'flame/Exhaust' inside the launch tube.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 12 Nov 2008 20:18

Guess - a test to validate launch of missile from surfaced submarine??

Brando wrote:I doubt the "Shourya" missile is a "surface to surface" missile as the Press Release claims. The whole things looks like it was meant as a SLBM with its toned down size and its ejecting nose cap and the weird rocket motor attachment at the base. They probably just wanted to test the missile in air to see if all the mechanisms worked fine and in the proper order before an underwater test.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 12 Nov 2008 20:20

http://frontierindia.net/album/main.php?g2_itemId=771

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Nov 2008 20:37

Austin wrote:So if this is not the K-15 Sagarika SLBM , is this a new system for the army .?

yes, me too curious.
is this the aswin mod Arun_S was talking about ?

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 12 Nov 2008 21:29

^ ^ ^
My thoughts exactly. The low placed fins show that this is a highly maneuverable system with a likely very very low CEP.
The fins are very similar to the AAD - so this might be the Ashwin.
The Booster looks like the one on Brahmos. (Of course looks can be deceptive).

PS: James Bond speculation : Unless DRDO has developed a "Sub-Launched AAD"

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Nov 2008 22:27

shetty wrote:On the news I heard them say that this will replace the Prithvi. 250 - 350 km vs 600 km ??? Doesn't make sense. Some explanation required.

Yes this is a Prithivi repalcement. The Prithivi with its long logistic tail and the time to fuel coupled with small range was destabilizing. It has to be moved clsoer to the borders and gets too much attention and whines. If anyone recalls Agni-I was developed pronto after Kargil crisis precisely for this purpose. So while Agni-I might be confined to strategic role this one will be the general purpose conventional wrokhorse for the IA. Two features from the picture- ahead steering shown by the brown smoke and the ballistic cap which shows its a cannister launch indicating a wooden round. the pink gas is probably a gas generator for the aft steering. All the fins and steering shows there is emphasis on accuracy.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Nov 2008 22:28

And Congrats ShauryaT, they named a vehicle after you!

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 12 Nov 2008 22:41

Does not seem to have seperating re-entry stage (??)

Anurag · Post by **Anurag** » 12 Nov 2008 22:50

Shaurya as a replacement for the Prithvi series makes perfect sense. The Prithvi was intended for a dual role (strategic/conventional) and everytime the Prithvi is deployed we hear a lot of noise from across the border. The Shaurya will clear those doubts!

I guess my question is, what is the significance of using Shaurya (BM) versus Brahmos (CM) by the Army in a conventional role?
Is it payload or lower heads up time for the enemy?

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 12 Nov 2008 23:02

neerajbhandari wrote:
Brando wrote:I think one can also see the whole "chromium vapor" drag reduction thing they were talking about with the nose cone on the second picture.
The chromium vapour drag reduction comes into play during reentry and the nose of this missile has a typical aero spike for drag reduction.

Cheers....

The flow spike is not typical for a ballistic missile. The chromium vapor drag reduction theory essentially says that the chromium is vaporized due to the frictional drag and creates a new boundary layer over the nose cone of missile. Its not dependent on atmospheric friction of re-entry.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Nov 2008 23:04

Editedd.

Interesting way to get the ballistic cap off! Its rocket and not a ram jet.

mandrake · Post by **mandrake** » 12 Nov 2008 23:05

Avarachan wrote:I've always been puzzled by the need for this co-development of the MRSAM with Israel ... It seems quite expensive, and it would seem that between the Akash and the AAD, we have enough indigenous expertise to develop a missile like this on our own. Can any of the gurus shed some light on this? I remember that when this co-development was announced, JCage was puzzled about it, too.

Developing a cutting edge SAM is not easy, and when it comes to naval based options one needs some really advanced radars, I mean whats the use of a P15A with not-so-good radars? Do we have a single working AESA radar yet?

As per official reports India is developing the missile, seeker et al and already has supplied Israel with the dual pulse rocket motor, other than all this co-developement it is safe to assume if we really want to make this thing comparable to the likes of Aster 30 et al, radars like mf-star is a must which i dont think, given the time frame of P15A series induction, India is in a position to produce such completely on its own.

On other hand Israel has a long time experience with AESA radars, both technologically and manpowerwise, peoples who have been exposed to such developements before.

IMHO Barak 2 is going to be a seriously kickass missile. Imagine shooting a ball at a empty goalpost, Barak 2 is being designed keeping in mind to get through the goalkeeper from any direction, just the kick should be powerful enough to let the ball cut the air and reach the goalpost.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Nov 2008 23:05

I would think of lesser drag tech nosejob use for escaping gravity, and preserve the fuel for midcourse+ .. and voila!~ we could potentially be converting A3->S1.

+correction.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 12 Nov 2008 23:08

Anurag, Is this an upsized Brhamos? The bottom is a solid booster that separates. The payload is one tonne vs 300kg. All else looks similar.

no saar ji, brahmos is liquid fuelled CM, this is solid fuelled BM.

edit: saik, do you know where I can buy a cheap reliable digital saikspeak decoder ?
thanks.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 12 Nov 2008 23:13

ramana wrote:Interesting way to get the ballistic cap off!

A number of Russian SLBMs do this.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Nov 2008 23:19

SaiK wrote:I would think of lesser drag tech nosejob use for escaping gravity, and preserve the fuel for midcourse+ .. and voila!~ we could potentially be converting A3->S1.

+correction.

What he is saying is that using a more aerodynamic nose and thereby saving some amount of fuel for trajectory shaping the A3 can become a Surya1 which doesnt exist.

Saik, writes like c++ or assembler.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Nov 2008 23:41

sorry.. for that. that is true, that I did learn English only after 8085 mneumonics. Ramana, that was exactly what I meant.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 12 Nov 2008 23:46

Why have the cap at all?
Missiles can simply tear through the covering of the cannister cap, or like the russian ICBM's the cap can be taken off before launch.
The plan is for a factory sealed cannister that is weather proof, can be deployed from kashmir to kanyakumari.
Can the same cannister be put to use for a SLBM role, since it seems to have all the ingredients of one

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 12 Nov 2008 23:51

Hey is this an anti ship missile?
The cap has a rocket motor for initial maneuvering of the missile from a vertical launch to an angled launch. Just like the cap on the Brahmos does before it shoots off to allow air to enter the ramjet.
A steeply angled launch would suit a cruise missile in a lo-lo trajectory, not a ballistic missile though.

Completely mystifying indeed