Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 13 Nov 2008 05:08

The election analysis that all 100% of one religion votes and since voting is only 60% somehow the party getting those minority votes will win. This is a wrong analysis, you have to really go constituency by constituency basis. Many states that have say <10% minority votes (at least 400 consistency in India are like that), the minority vote is meaning less. Then the reverse also happens, where minority vote is very high, there is reverse consolidation. So all in all a very complex analysis and somebody making these assumptions as we are making in this thread is way off the mark.

So I did say a month ago that if I am reading the tea leaves right, we are going towards banning BJP or emergency like situation. Congress cannot win this election (wonder why there is no opinion polls from NDTV or IBN for the semifinals? because Cong is loosing all of it and how low they can get their credibility). The question that I do not understand is, why cong is doing that, if they do not allow legitimate ways of grievance addressal or power transfer, people will find illegitimate ways. That would hurt them very bad. Why take panga with the army as well? Why destroy MI? I understand the why part, the part is what makes them underestimate the risk. What gives them so much confidence

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 13 Nov 2008 05:38

So we will have P Secular, commmie, Isalmists, Ej democracy in which Hindus cannot vote for his own representatives.
In fact this will be the very first , unique democracy in which Majority will be disenfranchised, Army discredited and administration to be run from overseas

Is this another test for Hindu patience or denial of rights equal to the needle point ,like in Mahabharat.
Na kahoon tab ki , na kahoon jab ki, baat karo ji aab ki
Na rahegi fauj, na govt,na kanoon
Orr Sunnat hogi subh ki. ( both EJ and IJ tradition)

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 13 Nov 2008 06:11

This is certainly becoming a farce: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Musl ... 706044.cms

MUMBAI: Lt Colonel Shrikant Purohit, who shocked the country by turning out to be the first serving officer to have been allegedly involved in a terror plot, has now left the investigating agencies completely baffled by the statements he made during the narco-test.

According to sources, Purohit told his interrogators that he had roped in some members of Malegaon's Muslim population to assemble the bomb and plant it near the SIMI office in the weavers' town on September 29 this year. The Army officer said the logistics for the blast were provided by fanatical Hindus, according to sources close to the investigation.

During the second narco-test that he was subjected to in Bangalore on Wednesday, Purohit, sources said, admitted that he monitored the Malegaon operation at the instance of a Faridabad-based spiritual mentor of Abhinav Bharat who was exhorting his followers to retaliate for ``atrocities against Hindus,'' including the murder of VHP's Swami Lakshmanananda Saraswati in Orissa.

Investigators have so far not been able to identify the guru. Investigators said Purohit's answers indicated that the Hindu conspirators in the Malegaon operation did not know what their Muslim counterparts were doing. If true, they also speak of his success in infiltrating not only Hindu organisations but also Muslim groups. This is funny

Results of narco-tests are not admissible in court as evidence. Their reliability has been called to question also because the replies are in response to leading questions, and the subject is semi-conscious. In fact, it is also felt that that someone with an army training like Purohit can beat the test. If Purohit was misleading his handlers, this could be to save his fellow Hindutva radicals. If that was his intention, he did a good job of it.

During the narco-test, Purohit gave details of how he recruited Muslims for the Malegaon plot. According to sources, he said that RDX used in the blast was procured from a colony in Pune which is inhabited by Kashmiri Muslims. The officer claimed to have directed the bombmakers to the colony, who assembled the device in Nasik's Bhadrakali area.

The Army officer is reported to have said that the entire operation cost only Rs 25,000.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 13 Nov 2008 06:55

http://www.zeenews.com/nation/11-11-200 ... 6news.html

Baba Ramdev backs Sadhvi Pragya Thakur

Zeenews Bureau

Ahmedabad, Nov 11: Spiritual guru Baba Ramdev, the man behind the yoga revolution in India, has come out in support of Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur, who has been accused of involvement in the September 29 Malegaon blast.

Calling her innocent, Baba Ramdev said he is with her.

The Maharashtra Anti-Terror Squad arrested the Sadhvi after her bike was found to have been used in the Malegaon blast.

The ATS is treating the Sadhvi as the main culprit on the basis of her telephonic conversation with one Ramji, who had allegedly planted the bomb in Malegaon.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 13 Nov 2008 06:58

Spin from TOI

During the second narco-test that he was subjected to in Bangalore on Wednesday, Purohit, sources said, admitted that he monitored the Malegaon operation at the instance of a Faridabad-based spiritual mentor of Abhinav Bharat who was exhorting his followers to retaliate for ``atrocities against Hindus,'' including the murder of VHP's Swami Lakshmanananda Saraswati in Orissa.

Shiv,
Good Terrorism Vs Bad Terrorism - I guess TOI follows your argument and it responded today.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 13 Nov 2008 07:11

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 13 Nov 2008 07:12

fanne wrote:
So I did say a month ago that if I am reading the tea leaves right, we are going towards banning BJP or emergency like situation.

This was discussed by many insiders after the UPA won in 2004.

Congress cannot win this election (wonder why there is no opinion polls from NDTV or IBN for the semifinals? because Cong is loosing all of it and how low they can get their credibility). The question that I do not understand is, why cong is doing that, if they do not allow legitimate ways of grievance addressal or power transfer, people will find illegitimate ways.

There is a confidence similar to the confidence during the vote of confidence. This group of business, NRIs and secular media and parties have an arrangement.

That would hurt them very bad. Why take panga with the army as well? Why destroy MI? I understand the why part, the part is what makes them underestimate the risk. What gives them so much confidence

The sociologists agenda is to depress nationalism
All institutions which promote this like army are also targeted.
This group is a very focused group of leftist, NRIs, commies and foreign hand which has influence inside India.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 13 Nov 2008 07:20

Out of the sixteen unsolved cases the suspicion of Sadvi and Purohit involvement is suspected in the following so far:
(1) Malegaon - 1
(2) Malegaon - 2
(3) Ajmer
(4) Samjhuta
(5) Nanded
(6) Hyd - Mecca

10 more to go...

'Samjhauta Express bomb was assembled in Indore'

The suitcase bombs that blew up two bogies of the India-Pakistan Samjhauta Express near Panipat killing 68 passengers last year were assembled in Indore.

Indore has emerged as a major hub of the Hindu militant groups including the Hindu Jagran Manch in the fast unravelling terror network run by Lt Col Purohit and Sadhvi Pragya Singh.

"The Indore angle of the Samjhauta blasts is now under investigation as the needle of suspicion has turned to Hindu militant organisations operating from this town in Madhya Pradesh," Inspector General of Haryana Railway Police K.K. Mishra told India Today on Wednesday.

Two officials of Haryana Police are currently in Mumbai to interrogate Lt Col Purohit, Sadhvi Pragya and other activists of the Hindu militant outfits arrested for their alleged involvement in the Malegaon blasts.

Investigations in the Samjhauta Express bombing, the first terror attack on the trans-border train between India and Pakistan, have remained inconclusive so far. The case figures among the sixteen high-profile unsolved terror cases periodically reviewed by a special committee of Union Home Ministry.

Among the 68 persons who perished in the midnight terror attack in the moving Delhi-Attari train, only 38 victims could be identified and most of them were Pakistani nationals on their return journey to Lahore.

But, investigators had stumbled upon a vital clue in the recovery of an exploded suitcase, one of three explosive-laden suitcases planted in the three compartments.

The suitcase and its clothing cover were traced to Indore where these suitcases were purchased and their cover was stitched by a local tailor. The tailor confirmed that he had stitched the covers but could not give enough lead to the investigators in identifying the customers.

Intriguingly, no militant outfit had owned up the attack which took place a day before the high profile visit of Pakistan's Foreign Minister Khurshid Ahmed Kasuri to Delhi for bilateral peace talks. The Samjhauta Express is used mostly by the poor Muslims of both countries to meet their relatives on either side of the border.

Though the security agencies have been groping in the dark, the Samjhauta blasts were speculated to be the handiwork of Islamic terror groups with the aim of derailing the India-Pakistan peace process.

Three months ago, when Safdar Nagori, the arrested chief of the banned Students Islamic Movement of India (SIMI) was administered a Nacro Test and a questionnaire on his outfit's hand in Samjhauta blast by the Gujarat Police. But, Hashmi denied SIMI's role, saying: "Why would we kill our own Muslim brothers?"

But, with Indore surfacing as the key centre of the militant Hindu Jagran Manch after the arrest of Sadhvi Pragya Singh and Lt Col Purohit, the Haryana railway officials investigating the Samjhauta Express attack were alerted on the possible involvement of the Hindu militant groups in the blast.

"We are coordinating with the anti-terror squad of Mumbai to further explore the Indore angle," says Mishra, adding:"The circumstantial evidence is pointing to the likely involvement of the Indore-based Hindu groups in the Samjhauta train bombing."

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 13 Nov 2008 07:21

ramana wrote:Its getting deeper. Center will ban BJP also if thats the only way they can win.

What stops the Army from taking over? Is it so decentralized that they cannot act?

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 13 Nov 2008 07:23

I dunno where from this talk of 'banning' the BJP comes from.

Both the INC and the BJP have some basic understanding in place. Which is why, when one party assumes power it doesn't wreck personal vendetta on the person of the leaders of the oppn party. It doesn't open old corruption cases and throw the oppn into jail even though we know in Des everyone is so corrupt and the law is so complex that someone at sometime or the other would have violated it in some way. Its a mutual back-scratching scheme all the way.

Banning the BJP would essentially close the doors on such mutually profitable understanding in the future for all time to come. And the lawd knows the ruling dynasty in the INC has many skeletons to hide.

/Just musing onlee.

What stops the Army from taking over? Is it so decentralized that they cannot act?

This is way over the top. The army in India will *never* do a TSPA. Ever. And Dilli is specifically designed with enough police and paramilitary to precisely prevent any such misadventurism.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 13 Nov 2008 07:26

vsudhir wrote:Banning the BJP would essentially close the doors on such mutually profitable understanding in the future for all time to come. And the lawd knows the ruling dynasty in the INC has many skeletons to hide.

Indira did it during the emergency when basically all BJP leaders were put in jail. The rumor is that Indira called elections only after a threat from Manekshaw. This talk of banning RSS is not auspicious.

vsudhir wrote:And Dilli is specifically designed with enough police and paramilitary to precisely prevent any such misadventurism.

It is not the same equation when the army is NBC equipped.

Added later:

Among the changes that happened during the last emergency without parliamentary approval was the explicit addition of Secular and Socialist to the preamble of the constitution. In effect this status quo has not been changed since then. Maybe the feeling is that this status quo is in danger and hence the talk of banning RSS.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Nov 2008 07:34

Muppalla wrote:Spin from TOI

During the second narco-test that he was subjected to in Bangalore on Wednesday, Purohit, sources said, admitted that he monitored the Malegaon operation at the instance of a Faridabad-based spiritual mentor of Abhinav Bharat who was exhorting his followers to retaliate for ``atrocities against Hindus,'' including the murder of VHP's Swami Lakshmanananda Saraswati in Orissa.
Shiv,
Good Terrorism Vs Bad Terrorism - I guess TOI follows your argument and it responded today.

I had a point to make with that "good terrorism"/"bad terrorism" thing.

India and secular Indians are offering the excuse "Babri Masjid and Godhra" every time there is a fresh bomb attack as though we must tolerate any number of terrorist attacks forever because of these two events or any other new events that can be added to the list. Since these events are "excuses" - terrorism in the name of these events has been made "excusable". Surely there can be nothing wrong in labeling "excusable terrorism" as good terrorism.

In fact the way India allows this to continue makes me feel that the word "good terrorism" must be appropriate - for there is always great urgency in reminding us about "Gujarat riots" and "Babri masjid" but no urgency to stop the terrorism or to even recall the previous 10 series of blasts conducted in the name of "babri Masjid" and "Gujarat riots"

On the other hand, terrorism controlled and conducted by Hindus simply must be "bad terrorism". There are no excuses yet that can be conveniently quoted every time there is a Hindu terrorist bomb blast. If there are no excuses for terrorism, then it is not excusable. Hindu terrorism is therefore inexcusable.

But a thought strikes me that if Hindus too started giving excuses, then Hindu extremist groups could quote those excuses every time they killed a few dozen people. With proper excuses that are accepted by the media and Secular Indians, Hindu terrorism too could become "good terrorism" and it could be allowed to continue forever - with the same excuses being given every time a blast occurs.

An interesting (to me) debate in my mind is whether secular India will give equal place to Hindu excuses for terrorism and Muslim excuses for terrorism and put both Hindu and Muslim terror on an equal footing. Or will we, in future have to accommodate more place for minority terror and ask the majority to be "tolerant"? But surely, in the interest of fairness, we should have quota for good, excusable terrorism. Let Muslims get 15% of terrorist attacks to conduct. But at the same time allow Hindus to corner 85%

Which of these would be secular? Which of these would be constitutionally correct?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Nov 2008 07:57

No they wont. All that dialectic is for minority terrorism.

I think whats going on is the old Krishna Menon project to remake the Indian armed forces is being resumed. Lets see where this goes. I hope I am not right.
There are two streams going on - the Hindu parties and the Armed Forces.

I wonder if this Purohit was running a counter intelligence operation that went awry and is now the focus of the political witchhunt.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 13 Nov 2008 08:02

ramana wrote:No they wont. All that dialectic is for minority terrorism.

So, I take it that the description "good terrorism" for terrorism by minority groups is fine, and "bad terrorism" as a name for terrorism by the majority is an appropriate way of defining the mindset of India's secular polity?

Today's news about Purohit is interesting. The execution of the terror that he masterminded was by Muslims, and the entire operation cost Rs 25,000

Maybe this will become good terrorism then?

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 13 Nov 2008 08:07

ramana wrote:I wonder if this Purohit was running a counter intelligence operation that went awry and is now the focus of the political witchhunt.

I was discussing the same possibility with another forum member. This will destroy MI just like similar actions in the past destroyed IB and RAW.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 13 Nov 2008 08:21

the entire operation cost Rs 25,000

So the Saadhvi's bike was a charitable donation? This circus is getting wilder every day. The "narco-analysis" and "brain-mapping" seem to be going just perfect. Those who have seen the "Mayberry Show" on American TV will recognize the plot - where Barney uses Hynotic Suggestion on Otis the Drunkard to find the directions to his liquor source the moonshine still.

This is a national-level high-profile terrorism investigation in the Duniya's Next SuperPower, or a comic opera in a banana republic? The media Running Commentary of the interrogation of the chief suspect, the idea that dozens of people are involved in a single terror plot.... what a bunch!

Given the fine display of efficiency and competence, I was going to ask if the vast majority of the Maharashtra ATS and the TOI staff are Hindus, but that would get me into serious trouble, so I won't ask it.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 13 Nov 2008 09:28

for whatever it is worth...

There is complete silence on pre-poll analysis... the intelligence reports must be looking very very VERY bad...

I honestly believe that this is a do or die situation for INC and UPA and they are resorting to desperate measures.

I am glad that BJP leadership (for the most part) is quite in the current circumstance. We should not invite trouble.

If there is something we at BRF can do is to use the existing print, radio and visual media to inform the Indian public the factual analysis and let them make an informed decision in coming election season. Even though most of the electorate lives in rural areas and is illiterate, they are wiser than most of the political leadership in India.

Let us not guess or invite an Army coup. It doesn’t bring any honor to IA or India.

The upcoming state elections in MP, Rajasthan will decide the final game plan of UPA and its allies. I will not be surprised if BD, ABVP, VHP, and RSS are banned before upcoming parliamentary elections.

I do not think UPA will ban BJP. It will create emergency like situation and INC will be dead, once and for all…

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 13 Nov 2008 09:40

Since polls are not discussed at BR (and India-forum is almost defunct for poll purposes) I would encourage ppl to visit offstump for poll projections. It had predicted Guj and Karnataka election quite accurately (where as bothe were done wrong by almost all news channel and newspaper). In fact we had a casuality at BR, someone believed it and promised that if BJP won Gujarat, he will not again come back to BR (and he has kept his promise for the most part).

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 13 Nov 2008 09:46

RamaY wrote:I do not think UPA will ban BJP. It will create emergency like situation and INC will be dead, once and for all…

I think its too late to ban BJP (its not 77) but they are trying their best to cripple it; cutting its legs under it and feiging ignorance. As Achayra said all Indian and Hindu forces are under threat -- I think a emergency like situation is in the offing.

These guys (congress helm) have basically ZERO clue of India.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Nov 2008 09:48

fanne, who was that? Must be very FHL! Send me an e-mail.

R_Kumar · Post by **R_Kumar** » 13 Nov 2008 09:48

But, with Indore surfacing as the key centre of the militant Hindu Jagran Manch after the arrest of Sadhvi Pragya Singh and Lt Col Purohit, the Haryana railway officials investigating the Samjhauta Express attack were alerted on the possible involvement of the Hindu militant groups in the blast.

"We are coordinating with the anti-terror squad of Mumbai to further explore the Indore angle," says Mishra, adding:"The circumstantial evidence is pointing to the likely involvement of the Indore-based Hindu groups in the Samjhauta train bombing."

So now its free for all. Looks like every police department from congress ruled state are lined up to interrogates/torture Sadhvi. Somehow I have my guts feeling that congress will have to pay big for this conspiracy.
Not sure what is the BJP plan?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Nov 2008 09:56

They shouldn't act in haste and allow them enough scope to complete the investigation. The poor lady is being doped repeatedly as every clueless katmal decides to question her. These are the lowest days of the IPS. Note how the press wont give interrogation team composition.

R_Kumar · Post by **R_Kumar** » 13 Nov 2008 10:19

Sanku wrote: These guys (congress helm) have basically ZERO clue of India.

Below are the names of congress working committee members:-

Dr. Manmohan Singh, A. K. Antony, Ahmed Patel, Ambika Soni, Arjun Singh, Ashok Gehlot, B. K. Hari Prasad, Digvijaya Singh, G. Venkataswamy, Janardan Dwivedi, Kishore Chandra Deo, Mohsina Kidwai, Motilal Vora, Mukul Wasnik, Pranab Mukherjee, Prithviraj Chavan, Rahul Gandhi, Saif-ud-Din Soz, Shivraj Patil, Urmila Singh, V. Narayanasamy.

I don't know many of these people but I doubt they are mass leaders.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 13 Nov 2008 10:37

RamaY wrote:I will not be surprised if BD, ABVP, VHP, and RSS are banned before upcoming parliamentary elections.

I do not think UPA will ban BJP. It will create emergency like situation and INC will be dead, once and for all…

They will have to ban BJP if VHP or RSS are banned because too many BJP members are or have been RSS members. Suddenly the big to-do about Gujarat makes sense now. The last emergency was preceded with a loss in the Gujarat assembly elections.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 13 Nov 2008 10:42

vera_K don't drag the armed forces in the discussions. Thanks, ramana

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 13 Nov 2008 10:49

ramana wrote: I wonder if this Purohit was running a counter intelligence operation that went awry and is now the focus of the political witchhunt.

I've held this line from the begining of the thread, that Lt. Col. Purohit is a plant.

People are talking of a frame up, which I believe is half of the story. The truth be told that the said officer penetrated the Hindu outfits and allegedly trained, planned and executed acts of terrorism on their behalf.

Malegaon (and similar) blasts failed to pay dividends in the state elections (KT & GUJ), besides having irked Jehadi fellow travellers within UPA.

With few assembly polls and Lok Sabha polls approaching the Jehadi outfits will demand "justice". Hence the withchunt.

The "investigations" and "revelations" also provides a window of opportunity to ban a cross section of Hindu organizations.

Bear in mind that the Hindu organizations might eventually stand cleared of charges in courts, but the goal will be met. Without these grassroot organizations BJP cannot win in the polls (that if BJP itself does not ends up in the ban list).

One good thing that is going to happen (remember this Internet age is not 1977) that garden variety Hindus will come to know what they are upto.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 13 Nov 2008 11:03

vera_k wrote:They will have to ban BJP if VHP or RSS are banned because too many BJP members are or have been RSS members. Suddenly the big to-do about Gujarat makes sense now. The last emergency was preceded with a loss in the Gujarat assembly elections.

That is exactly why I said there will be a ban on RSS but not on BJP.

Didnt get your other point though... would you care to elaborate?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 13 Nov 2008 11:24

RamaY wrote:That is exactly why I said there will be a ban on RSS but not on BJP.

This is not what I said. My point is that given the depth of relationship between the RSS and BJP, a ban on the BJP is unavoidable if the RSS is banned. Advani, Vajpayee and a host of other leaders are reported to still be RSS members.Frankly the RSS may expect the BJP to voluntarily report for jail time and the BJP will have to comply to keep RSS from floating another political party.

RamaY wrote:Didnt get your other point though... would you care to elaborate?

For some reason people see Gujarat as a harbinger of things to come with regards to losing or gaining political control. Based on what happened in 75, that would explain why the Gujarat elections have been so hard fought.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 13 Nov 2008 11:54

R_Kumar wrote:
Sanku wrote: These guys (congress helm) have basically ZERO clue of India.
Below are the names of congress working committee members:-

Dr. Manmohan Singh, A. K. Antony, Ahmed Patel, Ambika Soni, Arjun Singh, Ashok Gehlot, B. K. Hari Prasad, Digvijaya Singh, G. Venkataswamy, Janardan Dwivedi, Kishore Chandra Deo, Mohsina Kidwai, Motilal Vora, Mukul Wasnik, Pranab Mukherjee, Prithviraj Chavan, Rahul Gandhi, Saif-ud-Din Soz, Shivraj Patil, Urmila Singh, V. Narayanasamy.

I don't know many of these people but I doubt they are mass leaders.

To the last man these people were well known as "chamacha's" and hanger on in the dynastic court -- in old congress they were tolerated as court buffons; harmless pastime to humor the lords and ladies in spare moments.

It is telling that these are now the leaders of the new congress; and oh its not chance -- remember sudden deaths of Pilot and Scindia? Some one has been plotting the take over of India through dynasty for a while now.

madhu · Post by **madhu** » 13 Nov 2008 12:02

There could be some truth in what is going on… if you look at the chronology after the Hindu temple blasts has happened there is a blast in mosque. More over what makes BR people to think that Army will be quite if they have been pulled into vote bank politics?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 13 Nov 2008 12:33

madhu wrote:There could be some truth in what is going on… if you look at the chronology after the Hindu temple blasts has happened there is a blast in mosque. More over what makes BR people to think that Army will be quite if they have been pulled into vote bank politics?

Possibly. But that report in the TOI speaks about calls for a ban on RSS from within the UPA. The only time (after 1947) the RSS was banned was during the emergency.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 13 Nov 2008 12:50

madhu wrote

There could be some truth in what is going on… if you look at the chronology after the Hindu temple blasts has happened there is a blast in mosque. More over what makes BR people to think that Army will be quite if they have been pulled into vote bank politics?

Any comment by an Armyman against the allegations in the media or the ATS probe will immediately lead to them being thrown of the Indian Army immediately. I can just imagine the media healines if some from the forces commented and corus of screams coming.

So no matter what the Army thinks it is better for them to shut up.

sum · Post by **sum** » 13 Nov 2008 13:26

Link

You can't plan an operation like Malegaon blast in a day'
Prasanna Zore & Hitesh Harisinghani in Nashik

"Indian Army [Images] is the only secular institution in India and we don't have to beat drums to prove our credentials like the politicians do," said Colonel (retired) Shailesh Raikar.

Raikar was recently questioned by Mumbai's Anti-Terrorism Squad about his links with Lt Col Prasad Srikant Purohit, a serving officer of the Indian Army who was arrested for being the alleged mastermind behind the September 29 Malegaon blasts that killed six people and injured several others.

Responding to charges that Lt Col Purohit's alleged involvement in the Malegaon blasts and his links with right-wing Hindu radicals had dented the secular ethos of the Indian Army, Raikar told rediff.com: "I am hearing words like caste and religion more often in the last seven months than I have ever heard in my 21-year stint in the Indian Army."

The retired officer said during his posting in Manipur his right-hand man was a Muslim. He had worked with Sikh and Christian officers as well.

"I told the ATS that I know Lt Col Purohit since 2005 when he was posted at Deolali near Nashik and I was posted in Pune at Military Intelligence. Lt Col Purohit is a good friend of mine," Raikar said.

However, he categorically denied that the alleged key conspirators Sadhvi Pragya Singh Thakur, Lt Col Purohit, Major (retired) Ramesh Upadhyay, Ramji Kalsangra and Sameer Kulkarni ever met in September on the 165-acre premises of the Bhonsala Military School in Nashik where Raikar was serving as the commandant since last seven months.

"It is not possible for a motley group to plan an operation like this (the Malegaon blast) in one day. more so an operation that involves triggering a bomb in an unknown locality. Even when we plan an operation or exercise in the Indian Army, we spend several days weighing the pros and cons of it. Even then we make mistakes during our drills. Do you think 7-8 people can plan such a meticulous operation? If it is possible, then such people should be in the Indian Army," Raikar said, responding to why he didn't think the operation was not conceived on the BMS premises.

According to him, even an institution like the Indian Army needs nine months to train a soldier and 2-4 years to train an officer.

"Do you think these people (the alleged conspirators behind the Malegaon blast) could have been trained for such an operation in a couple of months?"

Raikar joined the BMS in early 2008 after he resigned from the Indian Army, which he had joined in June 1987. On November 11, 2008, he resigned as commandant and will be taking a month-long vacation with his family to Kolhapur, in Maharashtra, and Goa [Images].

"The ATS knows about my plans and I had assured them of full co-operation in their investigation," he added.

Speaking about his friendship with Lt Col Purohit, who was seven years junior to him, Raikar said they had last met in September when Purohit visited him at BMS along with his family.

"He congratulated me on my decision to take a less remunerative job at the BMS after resigning from a well-paying job with the Indian Army."

Raikar's designation puts him in the Class I gazetted officer's grade, the highest paying job for any public servant.

He resigned from the Indian Army for personal reasons. "I wanted stability for my children (Raikar has two children -- the son studies in class VII, and a three-year-old daughter). Army job entails frequent transfers and this had an impact on my son's education," he said.

Raikar, however, has a grouse against media-persons. He believes the media is largely responsible for defaming him and involving his name in the Malegaon blast case. In fact, as the rediff.com photographer took out his camera, the retired officer retorted, "Just because I called you to my house to talk to you does not mean that I have given you permission to shoot pictures. If you are going to take that camera out of your bag you may leave my premise at once."

Refusing to pose for a picture, he said his son was very disturbed by the turn of events and he would not like his son to be harassed in school.

"Everybody reads newspapers and watches TV. The ATS has never mentioned that I was involved with this group. It is the media that is making use of innuendos to link me up with them. I have nothing at all to do with them except the fact that I know Lt Col Purohit as a friend. I have nothing to do with them," he said.

Raikar, who graduated in BSc Statistics from Mumbai University and MSc in defence studies from Defence Services Staff College, Madras University, said he will soon be looking out for a job in human resources, training or project implementation anywhere in India after coming back from his vacation.

"Any job that will pay me well and help support my family."

As this correspondent got ready to leave, Raikar said, "I will flatly refuse we ever met at my house at the BMS. You may write whatever you want to."

Sad to see a IA guy having to defend himself against what is increasingly looking like a witch-hunt...

Manu · Post by **Manu** » 13 Nov 2008 16:00

Not to Blow my own horn, but I was the first one on BR to say that the Whole thing is a Farce. No matter how this pans out, the IPS will take a long, long time to recover from this. There is always the "Long leave due to ill health option".

And I really hope they Ban the Bajrang Dal and also the RSS. This will backfire spectacularly.

madhu · Post by **madhu** » 13 Nov 2008 17:12

And I really hope they Ban the Bajrang Dal and also the RSS. This will backfire spectacularly.

I don’t think so. Because Hindus are not completely united. They are divided among themselves.. Youth & upper cast Hindus support BJP. Cong(I) has lower cast vote due to OBC quota, Muslim vote due to Sarkar committee. The problem of tough stand on IM and Delhi shoutout, which has dented their Muslim votes, are now resolved by so called saffron terrorism. So no need to ban BJP. They might ban BD as they are anti Christian and anti Muslim ideology but not RSS.

Most imported to note is the political conferences of PFI in Kerala during Feb of next year this will give how south Indian Muslim would vote.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 13 Nov 2008 17:16

Manu wrote:And I really hope they Ban the Bajrang Dal and also the RSS. This will backfire spectacularly.

I do not think they are that stupid. They are setting a field to go full nine yards where the main opposition will not stand in the election. We have to watch and see if they can be successful. They are building a case to do something like 1977 emergency.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 13 Nov 2008 17:36

Madhu,
I have an intense interest in politics. Well why I am saying this, because, I know my politics. So let me dispel some myths. The group called MBC (Most backward caste) and OBC (Other Backward Caste), the largest fraction of them vote for BJP, compared to say congress or any other party. That is also (hold your breath), for SC and ST. Let me pick the ST part first, almost in all states, where BJP is a major player, STs votes more to BJP than to other parties (at national level). What you wrote about FC is true. Then if BJP gets majority of so called Hindu votes, why it does not get say 40% of popular vote (for 83% Hindu pop), why it only gets 23% of votes? Well at all places where BJP fought last time it got some 34 % votes and on seats where it was really in fight, its vote % was over 40%. There are few exceptions to the fact which I state above. Wherever there is a major caste among any Hindu group, they tend to form their own party and most of them vote for that party and not BJP. (Yadavs in UP/Bihar from BC, Vokkalingas in Karnataka, Marathas in Maha, Jatavs in UP [bsp], Kurmis in Bihar, ST in Jharkhand etc., even Brahmins in UP (10% OF POP)). In all where BJP is in fight, it gets the highest vote (not majority) of all Hindu groups except for some dominant Hindu group that has his own party. So BJP does attract highest vote from all cross section of Majority religion. It is a myth and a deliberate lie to say BJP is some kind of Brahminical conspiracy and only a small cross section of people support it. If you closely look at the fact, it does not bear out.
Since BR does not encourage political discussion, I will not discuss this topic further, but only say, do not believe on MSM for your analysis (even if you do for news). They are as wrong regarding defense analysis (and we catch them and know because here we know our defense), they are as wrong regarding their political analysis, only people here do not know their politics, they cannot catch that lie.
Thanks

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Nov 2008 17:45

fanne, philip has started an election thread. I find no reason to discontinue it given that we can discuss US elections.

I would appreciate it if discussion of caste politics is removed from this thread and taken there.
regards.

sum · Post by **sum** » 13 Nov 2008 19:04

Link

The Rediff Interview/Major General (retired) Afsir Karim
'We are in a dangerous position internally'

In the first part of the interview, Major General (retired) Afsir Karim, an expert on internal disturbances, conflicts and insurgencies in and around India, spoke of the secular credentials of the Indian Army [Images].

Part I: 'There are no communal feelings in the army'

In the second and final part, he speaks to rediff.com's Sheela Bhatt of the worrying internal security situation that India faces.

You retired long back. Recently Congress party spokesman Abhishek Manu Singhvi has mentioned that during the Bharatiya Janata Party rule they had tried to saffronise the army.

I can't comment on BJP rule but I know that some years ago there was a circular in the army that certain radical elements -- both Communist and from the RSS -- wanted to infiltrate the army. They were not allowed to do that.{Nothing regarding islamic terrorists after LeT men were found in the IA/paramils? } Actually regimentation of the army is stronger than outside influence. But, an odd individual whose mental makeup or background is such can always be like Lt Col Srikanth Purohit. After all, there have been spies in the army who got their comrades killed. That does not mean all of us are spies.

What is most disturbing about the entire event?

As is said, I have a sense of disappointment that this could happen in our army which has never happened before. The army does have enough measures to stop it. After all, Purohit must be clever if he could hide himself for so long. We don't follow everybody but there is watch on people dong sensitive jobs or doing things which are not normal.

A Pakistani army officer had once told rediff.com that Pakistani soldiers consider India as the enemy country and that makes the peace process difficult. Do you think this current War on Terror is also influencing Indians?

No, in the Indian Army we don't call the enemy by name. The enemy is merely an enemy. Even in our writing, in our operational order we don't call Pakistan or China or any other country by name. Yes, we may have feelings against Pakistan because we have fought a war, but to a limited extent. When war is not on we are not anti-Pakistan. On the LoC we have no enmity as such with Pakistanis in normal times. It's not like politics, we fight back only if they fire or in case of war. It's a question of what they are doing and what we are supposed to do in case of war. We are always prepared for it but we are not anti-Pakistan.

Initially, after Partition, there was this anti-Pakistan feeling among people who were thrown out of that land but that feeling has disappeared. So, I don't see any other external influence on Indian army men. Even our war cries are by caste, although there are Hindi or Hindu names, but it is regiment specific. In my regiment, there were four communities so we had four war cries. It's for personal use, during war when you are going to die you take hope from God. It has nothing to do with just Hindu or Sikh religion. It's for personal strength.

How do you prevent incidents like this where army men get involved?

Yes, it's extremely important to prevent such incidents in future. There should be strict vigilance in the army. In the last 10 years a lot of communal divide has taken place and we have to win away these people who are affected by communal thinking.

It's not difficult in the army. The regimentation is quite good if it's properly enforced. If your senior officers are weak, only then is the army in trouble. It is the CO's moral authority and discipline that counts. The senior officer has to be secular to enforce the same sentiments in his junior officers. By and large, Indian jawans are extremely secular.

I have seen Hindu COs attending mosques on Fridays. During the war against Pakistan in 1971, I was in Jammu and my jawans could have felt something about me. But no, my jawans knew 'he belongs to us'. That was the level of our regimentation. In the regiment everybody belonged to each other and all of us belonged to India.

But, society is changing. There will be an effect on the army. We should take greater care. There is no need for alarm. In the army you are not made to feel like a Hindu or a Muslim but the army man of the regiment you belong to. I have never felt as a Muslim in the army. I belonged to my regiment being an Indian. I think if the senior officers are proper, nothing will happen to the Indian Army.

How do you see the ATS's charges of terrorism on a Hindu group, from the strategic point of view?

This is retaliatory terrorism. India is facing terrorism from Pakistan and Al Qaeda [Images] which is strategic. There is domestic terrorism by separatists. These guys are not interested in Pakistan. They have their own agenda. Then, there is retaliatory terrorism which has started after the Babri Masjid demolition and the Mumbai riots. Before that there were no Muslim terrorists outside Kashmir. Once again, in retaliation a Hindu group has come up. There were radicals and reactionaries who will talk against Muslims but will not do physical damage except that they instigated communal riots. But they were not into terrorism. Malegaon is a new phenomenon. This is what I call retaliatory terrorism, which was also seen in 1984 when a Sikh killed Indira Gandhi [Images].

This kind of retaliatory terrorism can be settled from within provided the political environment is settled and political parties don't fight each other about who is doing what on the issue of terrorism. Please control this retaliatory terrorism, because this will destroy the country's ethos and curb the country's progress. No enemy is needed to come here to do that.

Where is the entire situation leading to?

We are now witnessing the worst possible internal security situation. It has spread all over. The Naxalites [Images] in the north-east, Kashmir is disturbed, Uttar Pradesh [Images] is unsafe, Maharashtra is mired in violence. Violence, whether widespread or not, affects a large number of people. I don't think we are doing much about it. Political parties are blaming each other but not stopping it. We are now in a dangerous position internally. I think the radical side is aggressive. Political parties, the media and civil society should understand that this kind of violence will destroy our country. Somebody has to put together all that is divided. To do that we require leadership at the top, which I don't think is present today.

The poor in the Muslim community are above communalism. It's the middle class which is watching TV, goes on the internet, goes to the Middle East and knows what happened in Gujarat. Similarly the poor common Hindus are extremely tolerant. But select groups of Hindus got indoctrinated through communal parties and associations and are turning into radicals. The percentage of radical Muslims will be larger than Hindus compared to their population. But, they have turned into radicals after the Mumbai riots.

But both radicals groups can be won. It's not only radicals but we should win away the people who are sitting on the fence thinking that he/she has no future in India. This spread of hatred and fear should be stopped. We should win them over. Political and social leadership should set this right. They must organise themselves and fight this menace if they really love this country.

How will this affect India's internal security environment?

Firstly, the Malegaon investigation has given satisfaction to people that the police have done a good job. They are not communal and they are not after one community. The pressure on Muslims has reduced. Overall, the effect will be much better than what it is today provided political parties and radical groups play the game correctly. They could create a further mess. If both Hindus and Muslims feel the police are doing their job sincerely without any bias, then it will do good for the internal security of country.

But if this thing goes on, it will be the worst possible thing for India. Because, internally, you will have so many problems. The Muslim population is very big and not a minority. Even if some small percentage gets engaged in terrorism and against them if some radical Hindu groups comes out, there will be civil war in India. It will be much worse because they will be using all kinds of weapons and explosives. This must stop immediately. Otherwise the country's security and integrity will be affected.

sum · Post by **sum** » 13 Nov 2008 19:07

Some more victims in the hunt for saffron terror:
Link

Commandant quits military school

Staff Reporter

MUMBAI: The Commandant of Bhonsala Military School, retired Lt. Col. Shailesh S. Raikar, and a staff member, Rajan Gaidhane, have submitted their resignations from their respective posts. The two had been questioned by the Maharashtra Anti-Terrorism Squad (ATS) in connection with the Malegaon blast.

Diwakar Kulkarni, secretary of the Central Hindu Military Education Society, which runs the school said the applications were submitted on Tuesday evening. The school will review them in a meeting of the Nashik Vibhag Samiti on Thursday. As to the reasons, Kulkarni said they were “plain applications” and that no specific reasons have been mentioned.

The school’s name has cropped up in connection with the Malegaon blast. Lt. Col. Prasad Shrikant Purohit, a key suspect in the blast and alleged founder of the Pune-based organisation Abhinav Bharat, is reported to have had a meeting at the school premises.

Col. Raikar was questioned by the ATS for his affiliation with Purohit. He was released later. “Raikar and Purohit knew each other. They hailed from military intelligence backgrounds and were colleagues,” said Suhas Deshmukh, secretary of the governing council of the society. Raikar did not issue a statement to the media. However, Mr. Kulkarni said Raikar could not believe that Purohit could do anything like this.

“Although the people were known, such a thing has happened,” he said.

School authorities have said they were unaware of the nature of the meeting. “This is an accident. In September, the secretary of Abhinav Bharat applied to us seeking permission to conduct a meeting. We usually let out our premises for various functions and activities. We do not conduct a background check every time someone seeks permission to use our premises. So, we accepted the application. Only one room was given to Abhinav Bharat for the meeting on September 16, this year. The meeting lasted only a few hours. Although we do not know the number of people attending it, the room can accommodate up to eight persons,” said Mr. Kulkarni.

“They are outsiders; they wanted to conduct a meeting,” said Mr. Deshmukh.

The school’s premises are let out during holidays for various activities. In 2001, the school’s Nagpur premises were given out for a Bajrang Dal “personality development camp.”

Meanwhile, the authorities are miffed at media reports proclaiming the “involvement” of the school in the blast.