Malegaon blasts and the limits of fake secularism

[fanne]

Vishal bhai,
I guess your piece, even valid, does not fit the mandate of BR. I guess you can make a point that there is poltics behind it (which will be stating the obvious), but if you were to develop a case of why Malegaon investigation is going the way it is, please do write up. I had that impression.
Anyway, thanks for sharing and use your judgement on you would want to delete your last piece or not.
Thanks,
fanne

[enqyoob]

Vishal, one simple reason why your post can be criticized as "yada yada yada" (and I will do so) is that the law-abiding Muslim is no more at fault for Islamic terrorism than you are at fault for the Best Bakery fire or the Naroda Patia atrocities, or the pregnant-woman-disemboweled-by-trishuls stories or for all those "Dalit youth burned alive and his sister stripped and paraded naked and raped by High Caste Hindus" stories. I bet you have not gone on public record, or, if you have, it doesn't matter because I haven't seen it - condemning all of those and demanding prosecution of those guilty. On the other hand, I have no reason to believe that this "silence" on your part constitutes endorsement of anything like that. Exactly the same way, I have no reason to believe that the average law-abiding Muslim citizen of India endorses any of the terrorist blasts.

This is the presumption of innocence, on which civilized societies must depend in order to flourish. And that includes BRF.

The fact is that there ARE laws in India requiring recipients of foreign money to disclose the sources. And there are thousands of organizations that do that conscientiously every time without fail. And I am sure Muslim organizations are among those.

So are there organizations that don't? Well... are there not "Hindu" businessmen that cheat? "We" pay government and law enforcement agencies to ENFORCE the laws that "we" a citizens pass, through our elected representatives. The fact that some outlaws and scofflaws are allowed to break the law, is a blot on society no doubt, but it is a failing of the government, not of individual citizens.

This fundamental idea has to come through your BLOG for it to have any credibility among people who are not already convinced of the basic prejudices that DO unfortunately come through in your article, loud, clear and redolent, all the disclaimers notwithstanding.

Lack of fair law enforcement hurts the law-abiding Muslim just as much as it hurts the law-abiding Hindu or Christian or Jain. Muslims can wonder if this lack of law enforcement is not intended precisely to paint a picture of all Muslims as terrorists, in order to remove their civil rights and rob them of their hard-won wealth and family.
************************************

The other reason why it is yada-yada-yada is that there is little original about the thought or content. BUT.. that's not going to stop it from being admired by thousands of open-jawed fans. Plus a good (shall I say "liberal") amount of factual errors: Examples:

Almost all suicide bombings, bomb blasts and other such acts of murder are always traced back to members of one community.

REALLY? "other such acts of murder"? "Bomb blasts"? In INDIA? I'd say you have no factual basis for that claim at all. In India, the Communists kill far more people than the Islamists do. The Khalistanis killed over 20,000. The list is long. And as for random murder, the people who beat and killed a North Indian citizen on a Mumbai bus recently were not Muslim either.

Tens of thousands of lives have been lost across India because the state governments and the Centre have failed to take a tough enough line on this issue.

"Tens of Thousands"? Really? where?

So the point of your article comes in the line:

If the government cannot protect it's citizens and forces people to live in fear, the people have no option but to rise.

Yes, they can vote out the government in free and fair elections.

I won't press the issue of whether that's what you meant, because otherwise I might have to ask that you be banned too.

[Prem]

So again it boils down to India getting harmed by Pseudo secularists,politicians,Pinkoes, Pseudo Liberals and Pseudo Social activits working for enemy forces. When will they learn that they will be the first one to be neutralized by both parties at very first oppertunity.

And I could have sworn that it was Lt Col Purohit and Sadhvi Pragya - you know the terror accused - who were playing into enemy hands. Should be getting the Nishan-e-Haider any day now... (with the Sangh Parivar applauding in the background).

Amitabh, Welcome back and congratulations {Mahdi was here}
Question is how can you deny that the above mentioned worthies have and still engage in undermining the natinal unity and integration since 47. None of the above represent or reflect the soul and blood of ancient or present India. Now ATS is backing out of false crazy claims playting to the pinkoes, islamist gallery and you still dont see any thing wrong in their attempt to implicate and harm armed forces reputation . Your cold is falling on the Lt COL and your frustration is because of failure in pinkos attempt to damage one major important Indian isititution. This is why PS crowd remain enemy of Indian nation . {here too}

[ramana]

Manu, Its not all IPS but some police officers. The ATS could be full of State cadre that might be politically guided. Also need to provide cadre rules that prevent political misuse as part of reforms. Also its quite easy to reverse the slide if capable officers are in charge.

Looks like the Lt Col is now under other charges. Nothing is worse than a thwarted pandu! Golmal Returns has some good scenes of such genre wth Arshad Warsi doing the honors.

[R_Kumar]

I was beaten day and night, my chastity was questioned. I wanted to commit suicide...

Please go through all the three pages. Whatever respect and credibility Indian police had they have lost it now.
It was so painful to read the entire text. Please forward this link to as many people you can.

[Manu]

Sure Ramana, but the system, flawed as it is, has enough checks and balances to ensure that an officer does not *have to* comply with Political Diktat, if his heart is in the right place.

A good Cop can always take out of Mumbai (Nashik, for example) Postings, Long Leave/Sabbatical, deputation to a central government post - all options with full pay. The next administration will rehabilitate them (with Full H&D).

By being so obviously political, one cannot but believe, that they are disgracing their entire profession. Sort of like the New York Cops in the 1930s during the Prohibition era.

The worst that can happen to a Good Cop (and which is likely to happen to the present bunch if a new administration takes "revenge") is to get transferred to Gadchiroli (happens to folks who need to be made "examples") or some other Place which is bordering the Naxal Hit areas close to Andhra.

In extreme cases, folks quit. Arvind Inamdar did (DGP, Mumbai).

Lastly, The present Top Cop is no Julio Ribeiro/D S Soman, that's for sure. Totally useless fellow.

And whether we like it or not, Mumbai Police Image is going from Bad to worse. After Telgi Scam (where former police commissioner was among 6-7 other biggies arrested), 2006 Blasts (as yet, unsolved) and this latest tamasha. Maybe Mumbaikars have a different opinion. But at this stage, one has to say that Delhi Police is doing a much better job. They have equivalent, if not more, political pressure.

[Manu]

The Probe gets murkier, and murkier.
Link

The Anti-Terrorist Squad (ATS) is in no mood to let Lt Col Srikant Prasad Purohit go off the hook. Or it so appears. For, after his prolonged questioning in the Malegaon blast case, the ATS' Pune unit now wants to question him in a minor case of forgery and cheating filed against him by a Pune resident. After a Nashik court remanded Purohit to judicial custody till November 29, the Pune ATS sprang a surprise in the Nashik court on Tuesday, by seeking Purohit's custody for questioning in a case filed against him by a Pune resident just three days ago.

Meanwhile, the Nashik court also ordered the transfer of another Malegaon blast accused Sameer Kulkarni - who is also judicial custody till November 29, to the Khadki police in Pune for questioning in connection with a case lodged against him in 2007 for assaulting a Christian religious leader.

[RamaY]

The Probe gets murkier, and murkier.
Link

IMO, the probe already lost its sanctity.. all that remains for now is to have a new ShivSena/BJP govt formed in Maharastra so the cases are brought to a logical end. I am not giving a verdict here but am trying to get a closure on this case.

Looking at the current politically motivated investigations, we are not going to see new truth, if any...

I really hope that Indian public is taking note of the tamasha happening in the name of secularism and terrorism... I put more trust on the Indian voter than the judicial system...

[shiv]

Increasingly, it would appear that only a small number of Muslims are opposed to terrorism.

Vishal, without disagreeing with the gist of your post, I will pick on one sentence (the one above) and try to show how
a)The statement is not necessarily true
b) But the appearance of its being true to some people is an advantage to the partially color blind "secular" polity of our nation as well as to those foreign nations who train separatists

I will use an analogy to try and see if I can make my thoughts more clear.

Imagine a gardener who is attempting to make a homogeneous white flower bed, but keeps finding weeds with red, yellow and blue flowers. The gardener works every day to remove the red, blue and yellow flowered weeds.

Imagine that this gardener falls ill and has to take time off, and is replaced by another gardener who is colorblind to red. The colorblind gardener faithfully removes all the yellow and blue flowers, but is unable to see the red flowered weeds and allows the red weeds to grow and actively protects then as if they were white.

At this stage there comes a neighbor who wants to use this flower bed to grow Opium poppies. He plants the seeds on the flower bed, and the poppies appear in various colors including red and yellow. What happens now is that the gardener promptly removes the yellow flowers, but fails to notice the red flowers. So the drug grower neighbor soon realises that the way to grow poppy in his neighbor's garden is to selectively plant red flowered poppies which will be missed by the colorblind gardener.

It appears to me that this is what fake secularism is doing in India.

Secularism should really be like the first gardener who was not colorblind. He ruthlessly removed all flowers who did not conform to the homogeneity required in the garden. But our secularists (mostly non Muslims) are hypersensitive to what happens to the Muslim community. They are "colorblind" when it comes to criminal acts by Muslims because they feel that Muslims are always being targeted by the majority community. They imagine that they see discrimination against Muslims even when there is no discrimination and a man who is a criminal happens to be Muslim.

Our drug dealer neighbors are Pakistan, Bangladesh and China. They fund and help all sorts of terrorist groups including ULFA (yellow flowers), naxalites (blue flowers) and Islamic terrorists (red flowers)

Our colorblind secularists are able to pinpoint and remove terrorism from ULFA and naxalites, but they take special care to ensure that Muslims are not touched in any way. From the beginning Indian secularism has wanted to ensure that Muslims should neither be asked to join the mainstream nor should they be asked to do anything. Secularism in India has continuously sought to prove to Pakistan and other observers that Muslims in India can be wholly islamic without any need to join the mainstream in any way. This has been done to disprove the two nation theory, because Indian secularists have felt that causing any change among Muslims or demanding anything from them would be used by Pakistan to prove that "secular India" is not good for Muslims.

So when foreign trained Islamic militants are placed within Muslim communities in India - our secularism prevents us from taking action against them because "we will be hurting our Muslim brothers" and in India you are secular only if you are constantly conscious of what you say and do so that you will not "hurt our Muslim brothers" If those foreign trained people indoctrinate Indian Muslims, our secularism still wants to ignore this, such is the selective color-blindness of our secularism.

The continuous string of terrorist attacks openly claimed by "Indian Mujahideen" had put our colorblind secularists on the back foot. They were almost cured of their color blindness, so the Malegaon blasts case comes as a breath of fresh air. they have now found a new flower color to get rid of - they can see saffron flowers and are targeting saffron flowers so that they can continue to joyfully ignore the red flowers.

Indian are secular. Indians do not like terrorism. But if a terrorist is Hindu or Buddhist or atheist we will deal with him firmly. But if a terrorist happens to be Muslim we will hesitate and think twenty times before even calling him a terrorist, "lest our Muslim brothers are hurt". Secularism in India finds it easy to accuse even lifelong secular Indians of communalism in an effort to appear "more secular than thou"

[Manu]

India Today Link

Purohit handed over to Pune ATS
Malegaon bomb blast accused Lt. Col. Prasad Purohit was on Tuesday handed over to the Anti-Terrorism Squad (ATS) of Pune for his interrogation in a three-year-old case of beating up a Christian priest in Khadki near that city.

Purohit's transfer to the Pune police ensures that he remains available to ATS even after the expiry of his maximum permissible police custody of 14 days. Police sources said Nashik police were meanwhile preparing to seek the army officer's police custody remand for a case of fake arms license.

Is this still a Terrorism Case? How is beating up a Christian Priest, a reprehensible crime no doubt (if true), come under the ambit of Terrorist Investigations? What does the "T" is ATS stand for?

[shiv]

As an addendum to my "secular color blindness" post above, let me make a slight off topic comment.

As indicated above I believe there is a symbiotic coexistence (convenient "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours") between India's fake secularism and the people who want to introduce terrorism into India. The latter will check the blind spots and find it most convenient to introduce terrorist inside those blind spots.

So why do you think that we are now finding reports of "Christian naxalites"

It is quite simple. As long as Naxalites are "Hindu" we can target them without putting stress on our secularism. But when naxalites become "Christian" then targeting naxalites is "minority bashing" and we will need to think twice (or twenty times) before doing anything about naxalism.

Little wonder then that naxalites will find a convenient hiding place under the guise of "Christianity" - just as terrorism finds a convenient hiding place under "islam" because Indians secularism is afraid to touch anything that is Islamic or Christian for fear of being accused of "intolerance", "bigotry" and "communalism". Or worse - Indian secularism is afraid of being told that the two nation theory is true.

This is Indian fake secularism at its finest hour. We are so afraid of being considered "communal" or so eager to call someone else "communal" that we deliberately nurture and maintain blind spots in which terrorists can hide as long as they put on a garb of being "Muslims" or "Christians"

[Manu]

Link

'No proof linking Lt-Col to Samjhauta'
19 Nov 2008, 0308 hrs IST, S Balakrishnan & Himanshi Dhawan, TNN

MUMBAI/NEW DELHI: The excessive enthusiasm displayed by ATS counsel and Haryana cops in linking jailed Army officer Lt Col Shrikant Purohit to Samjhauta blasts may have created complications for the UPA government which had blamed the attack on the train connecting India and Pakistan on alleged Pakistan-based jihadis.

Well-placed sources here said that the ATS has no evidence to link the jailed Lt Colonel to the February 29 Samjhauta attack, and that its counsel Ajay Missar exceeded his brief when he told a Nashik court that the RDX used to firebomb the train came from Purohit.

The zeal with which Haryana despatched its own cops — on the basis of newspaper reports, it would appear — to Mumbai to probe Purohit’s alleged links to Samjhauta attack has not been appreciated by the government.

While the ATS has since been engaged in damage limitation and the Haryana cops, it is learnt, advised to be patient, the premature assertions and disclosures mean that home secretary Madhukar Gupta will have some explaining to do to his Pakistan counterpart when he travels to Islamabad for home secretary-level talks on November 25. More importantly, the government plans to seek an explanation on Pakistan President Asif Zardari’s promise — to conduct an independent probe — on the allegations made by New Delhi regarding Pakistan’s involvement in the Indian embassy bombing in Kabul.

On the Samjhauta tragedy front too, the UPA government officially shared with Pakistan its assessment about the suspected involvement of Pakistan-based jihadi groups. In fact, at the meeting of the counter-terror mechanism held after the bombing of the train, India had even passed on the photograph of a Pakistani national who was suspected to have planted the bomb on the train which killed 68 persons, almost all of them Pakistani nationals returning home after visiting their kin here. The ‘bomber’ was identified by one of the survivors of the attack, Ajmat Ali, a Pakistani national who lost his entire family in the tragedy, as the one who got off the moving train before the bomb went off near Panipat in Haryana.

Gupta's Pakistani hosts are sure to confront him with Missar’s statement in a Nashik court. The home secretary can explain the new twist in investigation into the Samjhauta blasts as a testimony to the independence and fairness of India’s investigating agencies. But Islamabad, which has disregarded irrefutable evience of Pakistan-based jihadi groups in terror attacks across the country, is sure to pounce upon the development to accuse India of vilifying it in the international community.

The alleged involvement of a serving Army officer is sure to be milked for this purpose. Sources in both Mumbai and New Delhi feel that the investigation into the September 29 Malegaon attack has thrown up enough material to look at the train bombing case afresh. The explosives used were different from those preferred by Indian Mujahideen and SIMI jihadis and similar to those used against other ‘Muslim’ targets — Ajmer and Malegaon for instance. They are also attaching significance to the Indore connection. The suitcases carrying explosives were bought from Indore — the city which Ramji Kalsangre, one of the key suspects in Malegaon, belongs to.

But the evidence has not firmed up and it will be a while before investigating agencies can say anything with conviction. Meanwhile, the Centre is believed to have commended the Mumbai crime branch’s investigation of Indian Mujahideen’s role in the Ahmedabad, Delhi and Mumbai 7/11 blasts. Crime branch sleuths had arrested 20 persons and got their confessions about their alleged role in various blasts.

Then, human rights activists, minority leaders et al were allowed to meet the accused persons without police presence and make inquiries. All those who met the accused came out with the unanimous conclusion that the accused persons were not tortured and had voluntarily confessed to their role in 7/11 and other blasts.

[ramana]

A few years ago the District Attorney aka public prosecutor accused members of a lacrosse team of Duke University of rape and misconduct. He was proven to have used falsified evidence. The case was dismissed and the DA was stripped of his license to practice. I think even MacDonald's wont hire him.

Does the Bar Council of India or the Bar Association allow the PP to continue to practice after the hatchet job or does he need a supari?

[ramana]

Shiv, Good analogy of the color blind flower gardener and the parallel to the fake seculars. The root cause for the malady is the two nation theory for they are driven to be color blind and endanger social harmany. I think the solution is narayanan's oft repeated dictum- Delando est Pakistan- Destroy Pakistan: end of two nation theory end of fake seculars.

[RamaY]

Two questions Shiv-ji…

Secularism in India has continuously sought to prove to Pakistan and other observers that Muslims in India can be wholly islamic without any need to join the mainstream in any way. This has been done to disprove the two nation theory, because Indian secularists have felt that causing any change among Muslims or demanding anything from them would be used by Pakistan to prove that "secular India" is not good for Muslims.

To think in a different way, let us assume that TNT is good for the concept of India. I say this because, anything and everything that Islam teaches goes against the very fundamental values of Indic-culture and society, even if you take Hinduism, as a religious concept, out. What happens if the so-called Indian society agrees with TNT theory? Since India already lost whatever land and resources to erstwhile Pakistan it can be argued that the separation is complete.

Can this be done? What is the problem with this line of thought?

The continuous string of terrorist attacks openly claimed by "Indian Mujahideen" had put our colorblind secularists on the back foot. They were almost cured of their color blindness, so the Malegaon blasts case comes as a breath of fresh air.

How can this situation be rectified?

[Prem]

To usher in lasting peace , not only physical but also the ideological destruction of pakistan is imperative. Only them we will begin the juorney to correct the thousand years of wrongs. The PS crowd in Inida is trying best to create myriad hindrances to save the ideological inspiration of Pakistan right here in India thus weakinng the resolve to give death blow to our deadly enemy .

[Amitabh]

And I could have sworn that it was Lt Col Purohit and Sadhvi Pragya - you know the terror accused - who were playing into enemy hands

Welcome, Amitabh!

So you could have sworn this, despite, shall, we say, a paucity of evidence against them? Ooops! Sorry, there was no paucity of "evidence", it was being manufactured in large quantities and promptly delivered to the media, it's just that several others had already taken "credit" for the terror acts that they are being held as accused. But I am glad to see that this would have little effect on your ability to "swear" that they are guilty???

What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

This Business Standard editorial sums it up nicely: Creating Hindu terrorism

[Sanku]

What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Ah but the whole problem is that it is not the same sauce which is being used. Way too much Lal mirch in the new sauce me thinks!!

Of course when the sauce is actually tasted it will be obvious to all and sundry -- the color is already giving it away even as we speak; but the color blind secularist want their toungs burnt before they realize its a different sauce, and even then they will complain that some one doctored the sauce from the kitchen to the table.

[Amitabh]

What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Ah but the whole problem is that it is not the same sauce which is being used. Way too much Lal mirch in the new sauce me thinks!!

The problem, if I can state it in your terms, is that there is lal mirch everywhere, given the state of our law-and-order machinery. But some people only notice the mirch when it is mixed in with zafran, not when it is interspersed among the dhaniya or pudina.

[munna]

Ah but the whole problem is that it is not the same sauce which is being used. Way too much Lal mirch in the new sauce me thinks!!

The problem, if I can state it in your terms, is that there is lal mirch everywhere, given the state of our law-and-order machinery. But some people only notice the mirch when it is mixed in with zafran, not when it is interspersed among the dhaniya or pudina.

The problem Amitabh is that there is no Lal Mirch in a particular sauce but some people are trying to adulterate the sauce with Brick Powder (a known adulteration in lal mirch) to suit their agenda! There is to much Lal Mirch in other sauce and needs to sorted out by strict law and order.

[Avinash R]

This has nothing to do with malegaon blasts but this case which remained unsloved for the past 16years has been solved due to the leads obtained during narco analysis. in this case 3 previous cbi investigations failed but this one succeded due to the narco tests.

July 23rd, 2008 Kerala nun’s death: Narco analysis CD given to court
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/unc ... 75039.html

Kochi, July 23 (IANS) The Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) Wednesday handed over to trhe Kerala High Court the CD of narco-analysis tests of two priests and a nun in connection with the mysterious death of Sister Abhaya in 1992. Justice V. Ramkumar asked the CBI on JUly 14 to bring the CD on or before July 24.
...
The court will hear the case Thursday and reports indicate that the investigation is almost over. The CBI has identified the culprits and is now in the process of tying the loose ends before they arrest the culprits.
...
Three previous CBI teams have failed to crack the mystery behind Abhaya’s death.

and today the priests have been arrested.
2 Kerala priests held for nun's murder
November 19, 2008
http://news.indiainfo.com/2008/11/19/08 ... urder.html


added: fews days back when the questions were raised on nacro analysis tests i wanted to show through the telgi fake stamp paper case that this test does work and leads provided during such interrogation are indeed helpful.
when telgi was first arrested it was thought to be relatively small case running into few lakhs. but after he went through the narco test the full details of it came out. the leads provided helped in the finding the locations of the warehouses in which telgi gang used to store the stamp papers(these were raided and fake stamp papers seized), the person in the nasik security press who provided the special ink and the plates(he was caught), and some useless details like the amount of money telgi spent in his favourite dance bar.
sorry that i brought the rape case but the weblinks regarding telgi case are old and cant find them easily.

[enqyoob]

Welcome to the goose AND the gander, Amitabh. Quite appropriate assessment of the intelligence of those who rush to judgement. What looks like sauce to either of those, is something I do not care to touch, but I am glad to hear that it looks like sauce to you.

I don't argue at all with your point that poor police procedures hurt the credibility of ALL crime detection and crime prevention. And I don't think you are going to find, old link or new, anything where I ever argue otherwise.

If you recall (and it would be understandable if you don't), our previous disagreement some years ago was due to your rush to presume the guilt of some other innocents similarly accused by some of the same entities behind THIS bunch of canards. Apparently you got rather upset at what happened to your assumptions after some fresh air and light were let in over them, and you got all upset and picked up your marbles and pouted off. Like one of our Holy postors on another thread recently who started seeing Djinns hiding behind every post.

So we are back to the problem: you do tend to rush to judgement, and not consider that the suspects must be presumed innocent unless proven guilty in a fair trial. I have to give you marks for being consistent.

As in the past, let me repeat the dictum from Comrade Con-Foo-Shiu:

Do not reap to concrusions. What rooks rike glass on otherl side may be srime on sulface of poo poor.

[fanne]

Well we all support one party or the other, and when the time has come, we have questioned the party that we support if it conflicted with national interest or truth.

[R Vaidya]

Convergence of interests and the puppeteers

Army top brass complain on pay scales-- Babus do not like the way it was done--
Only NCP has strongly supported ATS--Their minister is holding Home portfolio-- Also always holding Civil Aviation portfolio at Centre [ Not many remember that DMK has Telecommunication for more than 15 years and NCP Civil aviation for more than ten years]
Arun shourie said on the floor of parliament--as a minister-- that after two years of probing he could not find out who owns Jet Airways--Owned by groups registered in Virgin islands--It is supposed to be part owned by D group.
Another interesting coincidence is that Jet decides to make Brussels as its European hub and it boosts Belgium’s Economy—Sonis gets an award from the king of Belgium—Which is under court/EC scrutiny.Shard Pawar suddenly speaks in Satara--in early october-- about Nanded bomb blast etc not being properly probed-- That is Hindu terror groups are growing--
Then this unfolds --But who has bullied or put pressure on Pawar who owns more than [ according to M.J Akbars new journal Covert] Rs. 10,000 crore--? Mostly in middle East-- He is present in all receptions to Kings/Princess of ME given by Avuiation Minister for civil Aviation purposes even though he is agriculture Minister--
There is another important question--
What transpired between Sonia and Zardari at Peking [ why she insisted on going even though she was not given even a VIP seat due to Olympics protocal?]
What is the grand deal developing between Pakistan and India when that country is sinking into an abyss. Why Pakistan is silent on J&K poll?
Why NSA is showing extra interest in this ATS issue? Why a meeting of all IG's and State IB chiefs called at Delhi on 21/22 november--only to discuss Hindu terror and Army infiltration? This to be addressed twice by PM and by Home Minster-- Why MI is asked to depute a senior official to it? Why there was no such grand meetings after all the earlier attacks?
There are questions and questions--
The evolving story is fraught with dangerous consequences--IA may slowly become INA.To some extent only some bother about honorarium[ pay scale etc] but they bother to a large extent about honour--
Dangerous days are ahead--
rvaidya

[shiv]

The problem, if I can state it in your terms, is that there is lal mirch everywhere, given the state of our law-and-order machinery. But some people only notice the mirch when it is mixed in with zafran, not when it is interspersed among the dhaniya or pudina.

Absolutely correct. This defines Indian secularism. The problem is not Muslims. It is the hypersensitive Hindu secularist whose restless eyes and suspicious mind are only on the lookout for mirch with zafran and mirch with dhaniya but go all jelly like and apologetic (and upset) if anyone hints that there may be mirch with pudina. This is the fundamental pillar on which Indian secularism stands.

The secular Hindu will not allow the Muslim to break away from his Musliminess even if he (the Muslim) wants to, so single minded is the secular Hindu in protecting what he thinks is Muslim honor, Muslim life and Muslim beliefs. This assists the mullah (much to the joy of the secularist) apart from making the Muslim community uniquely susceptible to being used by indoctrination of vulnerable people. Which is what the ISI specializes in.

One that happens, Muslims are branded "Oh Muslims are violent" and "Muslims are terrorists" gets "proven" in the public sphere leading to further Muslim alienation while the secular Hindu comes out with all guns blazing protecting the mullah, the terrorist and the Muslim community at large for that is his dharma.

This will end. I really do believe the Muslim community in India is being held down and being held to ransom by mullahs and terrorists because of overcooked Hindu fake secularism. The kiss of death, the Hindu secular mother hen nurturing brother Muslims

Mother's gonna keep you under he wings
she wont let you fly
she might let you sink..
etc

[fanne]

One other thing, is there any substance in the accusation that this episode is mainly to fix MI and strip it of its ability? The CI part of RAW it seams has been fully compromised by this regime. The only thing that stands between a complete surrender at intelligence level is MI. This has been an operation to fix MI. It should not come as a suprise that MI has contacts with Hindu radicals (it would also have contacts with Muslim/Sikh/Christian/Martian radicals). It should also not come as a surprise that MI is in business that some might say is illegal (like going across the border without visa and passport to say the least). Every country in the world has MI or CI doing similar things. Is the current operation trying to disgrace MI and defang it? But then there has been no progress on that front except for news today that an army captain has been questioned.

The other stream that is coming out of this investigation is, they are going after Hindu leaders who have been in for-front of anti-conversion and anti-UPA movements. Like the Shankracharya, who organized the tribal Kumbh in Dang that stopped any conversion there. They are also going after diamond merchants etc. who are known to support a particular party (saying that they financed the Sadhvi). So there are many wheels within this wheel.

[RamaY]

The secular Hindu will not allow the Muslim to break away from his Musliminess even if he (the Muslim) wants to, so single minded is the secular Hindu in protecting what he thinks is Muslim honor, Muslim life and Muslim beliefs. This assists the mullah (much to the joy of the secularist) apart from making the Muslim community uniquely susceptible to being used by indoctrination of vulnerable people. Which is what the ISI specializes in.

Thanks Shiv-ji.. this explains some of my doubts...

[Tamang]

Business houses funded terror group, says ATS

The probe into how Hindu outfits accused of terrorism had links with some Army men brought a few business houses under the scanner of Maharashtra's ATS and Central Security agencies investigating the finances of the group allegedly responsible for Malegaon blast.

Sources attached with the probe said that a religious leader from Southern Gujarat was one of those who collected funds from the business houses.

Working on the chain of events about finances of the Abhinav Bharat, a little know saffron outfit allegedly involved in the September 29 Malegaon blast that left six people dead, sources said names of some of the business houses in Maharashtra as well as Gujarat cropped up.

A check was being done whether the business houses were aware about the end use of funds. "We have questioned some of them and we are working to ascertain as to how much of money had been handed over to the saffron outfit," a senior probe official said on the condition of anonymity.

The names of the business houses were not divulged for security reasons.

The money was generally collected by a self-styled religious leader hailing from Gujarat and efforts to seek his custody had not fructified so far, they said.

It seems that Psec brigade has declared aar paar ki ladaai this time. But this is going to cost them huge IMO.

[vsudhir]

More mischief in the offing, seems like...

IB to host top-level security meet on Malegaon blast fallout (Rediff)

The Intelligence Bureau has convened a top level two-day brainstorming session with security officials in New Delhi [Images] on Saturday and Sunday to discuss the fallout of the probe into the Malegaon blast of September 29, 2008. The meeting will also consider strategies for tackling the suspected infiltration of Hindu fundamentalists into the Army and police.

The meeting, to be attended by the directors general of police of all 28 states and 35 joint directors of IB from all over the country, will also discuss the home ministry's bid to ban the Bajrang Dal for its alleged involvement in attacks on Christians in Orissa, Karnataka and other states, sources in the IB said.

Does sarkar intend a purge on 'hindutwavadi' elements in state institutions such as the IA? Dunno. Reeks of underhand agenda, though. And, with polls coming up, it won't be a pleasent ride, am sure....

[fanne]

But why now? Do they know for sure that in the next election they would be out? Or is it more a strategy to disrupt NDA (see how after Khadmal Naveen Patnaik was asked to leave NDA, even now Tripura CM met him 1-1 and asked him to ditch BJP and finght along with CPM, in Bihar after MNS, similar feeder are being given to Nitish by Lalu/Paswan) and ban BJP/RSS/VHP/BD or some of them?
What is about 2004 that N3 and everyone is referring about? What was left then that got started now. They are acting desperate as if they have a deadline and they need to fix many things. Why?

rgds,
fanne

[enqyoob]

Interesting. In India nowadays, "Top-Secret" meeting of the Intelligence Bureau are published in the news media? Do they give GPS coordinates, timings of arrival and departure of specific members also, I wonder.

As in the case of the "NarcoTests" and "BrainMaps" being discussed as if these were flu shots and cardiograms, what is stunning is what ppl DON'T ask in India about what they read in the media.

Just think about that "news article" above. I would if it weren't so

[enqyoob]

Fanne: Enjoy.
Same villains (I mean the ones making the noise). Same conspiracy. Same funding sources. Same motives. Hence same ultimate targets.

Vaidyaji:

Here is the n^3 Backward-Difference Predictor-Corrector Algorithm.

Look back several months, and see if you can find someone who seemed to know the "shocking news" occupying today's headlines.

Several months ago, the Indian Muslim Council in the US came out with a Statement Condoming Terrist Blasts in India.

It basically said (after cutting away the garbage and focusing on the gems inside) that the three blasts conducted by Hindu Terrorists should be investigated. That was what they were condoming.

At the time, I hunted for any news on these blasts, and all I could find was the case of the Darwin Award winner in UP who managed to inflate himself. There was no credible evidence that he was member of the Bajrang Dal or anything else, though that would still mean nothing except that Evolution had taken a step forward. I wondered if that one item would justify such a claim from even these IMC worthies.

I am sure the enthusiastic Searchers here can find the precise statement. Dinosaurs like me just depend on long-term memory, which only stores the essential points.

[vsudhir]

n^3 ji
Not to nit-pick but here's a minor nitpick anyway:

Interesting. In India nowadays, "Top-Secret" meeting of the Intelligence Bureau are published in the news media? Do they give GPS coordinates, timings of arrival and departure of specific members also, I wonder.

The news item mentions top-level security meet and confirms down the line that PM and HM are among the attendees. Doesn't quite allude to 'top-secret' anywhere, and in this case 'top-secret' would defeat the purpose since the powers that be are playing to a certain gallery and want it known that the yindoo jeehad is being countered effectively.

/Unless, I'm missing something of course (which is not atypical).

Given that some interested qtrs abroad seem to be funding and back-seat driving this tamasha, and that GoI is playing along, where does this lead to? A stolen election? An emergency? Who knows?

[shiv]

To me Indian secularism appears to be a charade in which some Hindus (labelled "communal") criticize Muslims and other Hindus (who call themselves secular) criticize the Hindus who criticize Muslims.

In the Indian version of secularism it is OK to ask for social change among Hindus. It is communalism to talk about any change regarding Muslims. Resistance to change among Hindus can always be criticized, but secularists will come down heavily on any Hindu who speaks about resistance to change among Muslims.

If a person is Indian and secular, I would like someone to point me to one article or statement by such an Indian secular person that is critical of Muslims without feeling the need to slap Hindus in an equal equal act. In this type of secularism, Muslims are beyond any criticism. They must not be touched or discussed, and if anything negative is said about Muslims, there has to be a slap on some Hindus to put up a show of 'balance and fairness'

You can game Indian fake secularism easily

Praise of Hindus gets them (Hindus) 1 point
Criticism of Hindus gets them -1 point
Praise of Muslims gets them 1 point
Criticism of Muslims gets Hindus -1 point

If you say 10 words of praise and 10 words of criticism about Hindus - Hindus get 0 points and Muslims get 0 points

If you say 10 words of praise about Muslims and ten words of criticism about them, Muslims get 10 points and Hindus get -10

You add the two up and Hindu secularism gives Muslims +10 and Hindus -10, with equal praise and equal criticism of both sides.

No wonder Hindus get pissed off. Even without giving a damn about what Muslims think or do, Hindus will get pissed off by Indian secularism.

[shiv]

An emergency?

Emergency requires cojones. Only Indira Gandhi had them and she is dead.

[fanne]

I agree Shivji, but let me reword it, emergency nneds cojones or perception of having cojones (or if you have no choice, as dictated by your foriegn masters). But I agree, emergency declaration would be like asking for permanent end of some parties and dynasties, ppl will resist and throw them in Bay of Bengal.

[Tamang]

If emergency (to tackle "Hindu Terror") were to be declare tomorrow I am sure psec media will lap it up, supported by the intellectuals, human rights walas etc.

BTW, the yahoo link did not have complete text, remaining from here...

While officially there is no word except an indication from Maharashtra Director General of Police A N Roy earlier this week that a religious leader may be involved, those investigating the matter said it was not possible to reach the religious leader, who enjoyed a lot of public support in the area.

The sources said it was now evident that a self-styled godman may have a role for financing a virtual parallel terror network within the country.

These leaders have also been allegedly involved in other hate-crimes including attacks on Christans in Gujarat last year, they said. Could EJ lobby be among those behind this whole ATS "activity"?

To a question as to why this godman was not being detained for questioning, the officials indicated that the Gujarat police was not that cooperative on this issue.

"Furthermore, we cannot go alone as we will have a tough time in tackling the tribals in the area who are his followers," a senior official said.

The sources said some business houses in Gujarat and Jammu had also come to the notice of sleuths during the investigations and the same would be probed at an appropriate time.

Dayanand Pandey, the self-styled godman arrested in Kanpur in connection with Malegaon blast, played a key role in hatching the conspiracy behind the blast. He is also alleged to be one of the key persons who used to arrange finances for giving military muscle to the saffron parties.

So UPA is going all out against Sangh and its affiliated organisations. We shouldn't underestimate the extent they can go to achieve their goals, since coming to power they have tried every trick through the Governers in various states to ensure that NDA doesn't get to form governments easily.

[enqyoob]

Ah, my mistake. Attention-deficient reading. It only says that a Top LEVEL security meeting is to be held. Glad that they announce that. So not only the IB top ppl will be present, even the PM and Mantris will be.

[sum]

The Intelligence Bureau has convened a top level two-day brainstorming session with security officials in New Delhi [Images] on Saturday and Sunday to discuss the fallout of the probe into the Malegaon blast of September 29, 2008. The meeting will also consider strategies for tackling the suspected infiltration of Hindu fundamentalists into the Army and police.

This is truely getting absurd now....

Very interesting comment for this article in rediff:

Ib will have two options
by --- on Nov 19, 2008 09:21 PM Permalink | Hide replies

IB will evaluate two courses of action available to it. The options will depend upon the intelligence it has gathered on reactions of various communities to the Sadhvi case.

In case the intelligence says that the Muslim vote bank is secure and Hindu vote availble to congress has not broken away, the course of action would be:

a) Keep the ATS leaks coming to NDTV and STAR.
b) Link the senior BJP leaders and other political adversaries including Jailalita, Navin Patnaik etc. with Sadhvi. Do not arrest them but create enough doubts thru media leaks.
c) Get a JNU historian to present a paper on how Prithvi Raj Chauhan actully attacked Gaur and tried to kill Gauri. {:rotfl: }
d) Get National security Advisor MKN to say that there are 4000 Hindu terrorist modules operating in the country.

e) etc. etc.

However in case the intelligence reports suggest that the Muslim vote is not shifting as Mayawatis, Mulayams and Karunanidhis are as strident as congress while Hindu vote is being lost then the strategy needs to be reversed

a) Make Shivraj Patil to make a statement that President's questions regarding clemency to Afzal guru have been answered and President has been requested to act as early as possible.
b) Make Rahul visit Haridwar and take a dip in Ganges.
c) Advise NDTV and Star to defocus on Malegaon and focus on Dawood who is living in Karachi. Put a story about Pranav's deal with Zardari.
d) Abondon the Ram Setu project in public interest.

..........yet

Sounds the most probable outcome of the "meeting"...

[fanne]

Damn,
Who got hold of Rahul baba secret notes. SUM buddy you are in lots of trouble. They might discover that you are in fact Dawood himself. Watch out!!