Indian Navy and International Anti-Piracy Ops

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 21 Nov 2008 19:09

after a few hours of yo ho ho and a bottle of qat, these boys probably thought they could scare off the Tabar with a few threats, probably didn't expect any real retalliation. from what i have read of somali fighters, they are not afraid to meet their 72

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Nov 2008 19:16

Lalmohan wrote:after a few hours of yo ho ho and a bottle of qat, these boys probably thought they could scare off the Tabar with a few threats, probably didn't expect any real retalliation. from what i have read of somali fighters, they are not afraid to meet their 72

The ships captain would never have closed to anywhere near RPG range.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 21 Nov 2008 20:02

well, if we probe too deep we may find a few quirks - i.e. what is loudhailer range vs rpg range? what language did the pirates speak? why 4-5 hrs, etc., etc., lets just be proud of the fact that the IN took out a nasty little pirate vessel and has the world's admiration for it.

warthog · Post by **warthog** » 21 Nov 2008 21:16

After India flexing it muscle in the gulf of aden,we are celebrating as its new age for the Indian might.What you fail to realize that Ins tabar had to wait for it to be attacked and even it then it hesitated.Only after seeing Rpg's it attacked in self defence.

India has blindly ratified the lost treaty
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nat ... of_the_Sea

In effect India has given its sovereignty to UN.
I was reading this BBC article
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7741287.stm

It shocked me that the Indian navy and the govt had to seek permission from the UN to pursue pirates.

This is the effect of the LOST treaty.If India has to be a superpower it should immediately pull away from international treaties which affect its strategic security like law of sea treaty and UN convention of biodiversity.Rather that ratifying humane things like UN convention on human rights(whcih India and Pakistan have yet to ratify) and India calls its self's a free democratic country.
here are some clips and articles on the effect of the law of sea treaty.
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=D5Y24goa6o4
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=tOZbWenLG2o
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=RKgBEMSK3_I
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=57745

US has not ratified it btw.
End supranational ism,global governence and push national sovereignty.

Our navy is at mercy of the UN.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Nov 2008 21:29

Lalmohan wrote:well, if we probe too deep we may find a few quirks - i.e. what is loudhailer range vs rpg range? what language did the pirates speak? why 4-5 hrs, etc., etc., lets just be proud of the fact that the IN took out a nasty little pirate vessel and has the world's admiration for it.

Brother,
The primary responsibility of the Captain is the safety of his ship.
Hence, he would have stayed very clearly out of RPG range.
Those loudhailers are pretty loud, putting out hundreds of watts if I remember right. Not your usual hand held variety but these are part of the ships equipment. Definitely more reach than RPG range.
Nobody on board the TABAR would really give a jack about what language the pirates spoke, after a few cursory hails in bhojpuri to clear the air, they would next hail the pirates using armament.

By the way, the normal RPG range would be around a kilometer at the outside.
Totally useless against a man of war closed up at action stations. Nevertheless, the captain would have stayed well beyond this range. Using powerful binocs that would enable the bridge to see very clearly, the captain would be aware of any movement / preparation for action from the hostile vessel. It would be safe to assume that the pirates would have equally good optics. They would have seen the guns train on them for sure.
I am very proud of the fact that we took out some of the little buggers.
Many more pirates are going to be dispatched to meet their 72 virgins I am sure, before this is over.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 21 Nov 2008 21:48

I think along with INS Mysore, if we could also position our Super Devs(FAC) near the gulf of Aden. These are ideal to tacke the pirate speed boats with its speed of over 35knots. These boats can respond fast and their 20mm guns are ideal to deal a blow to most pirate speedboats. These boats could ride along with a parent ship like INS Shakti , where Shakti could act like a floating doc and these FACs could Replenish their supply , then they could conduct regular offensive patrols.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Nov 2008 22:05

imho ships these days have high power LDP style IR and LLTV equipment.
an example is SIRIUS IRST on some of the EU AAW ships.

or atleast a handheld TI or two.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 21 Nov 2008 22:37

The gem so far:

Chetak wrote:These pirate guys are businessmen, not morons.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 21 Nov 2008 22:57

why Amber

Just because they do not wear suits??

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Nov 2008 23:32

guys big news is breaking - we are "going in"

ET
Somalia seeks India's help to quell piracy
21 Nov 2008, 1853 hrs IST, IANS

NEW DELHI: In recognition of India's proactive role in combating piracy in the Gulf of Aden, the Transitional Federation Government (TFG) of
Somalia has given the nod to the Indian Navy entering its territorial waters to "suppress" the scourge of piracy as mandated under international law, a naval official said here on Friday.

The letter from the Somali government intimating its decision reached the defence ministry Nov 19, a day after Indian Navy's stealth frigate INS Tabar checkmated Somali pirates and sank one of their vessels and forced abandonment of another in the piracy infested Gulf of Aden.

"We had put up a request before the Somali government to play a greater role in suppressing piracy in the Gulf of Aden in view of the United Nations resolution. The TFG government gave its nod recently," the official added.

The official denied reports that the Indian Navy had been given the mandate for "hot pursuit" of pirates in Somali waters as it poses a threat to the vital energy supply route for India.

"We have been given the mandate to function according to the UN resolutions which allows us to enter Somali waters to restrain piracy in the region. Calling it a mandate for 'hot pursuit' will not be the right interpretation.

"Our main concern will remain the ships under Indian flag, to deter piracy and instil confidence in the shipping community. The main role will remain patrolling and surveillance," the official added.

In the UN Security Council resolution 1816 passed in June 2008, the international body had given permission for cooperating with the Transitional Federation Government (TFG) of Somalia to enter its territorial waters.

"For a period of six months from the date of this resolution, states cooperating with the TFG in the fight against piracy and armed robbery at sea off the coast of Somalia may enter the territorial waters of Somalia for the purpose of repressing acts of piracy and armed robbery at sea, in a manner consistent with such action permitted on the high seas
with respect to piracy under relevant international law," the UNSC resolution 1816 states.

Along with India, China has also put up a request for permission to enter Somali waters. However, the request is still pending even as Somali pirates hold captive two Chinese ships.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Nov 2008 23:34

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 738860.cms

Mandeep · Post by **Mandeep** » 21 Nov 2008 23:51

There's all round praise in the Western media for the IN's action. I think people are sitting up and taking notice of India's muscle, newly found clout and stable presence in the area.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 21 Nov 2008 23:58

Delhi: Pirate ship sunk by Indian navy took part in Saudi tanker hijack

The Indian defense ministry stated Thursday, Nov. 20, that the pirate “mother ship” sunk by the IN Tabar stealth frigate Tuesday in the Gulf of Aden took part in the hijacking of the Saudi supertanker Sirius Star last Saturday. The pirates are holding the giant tanker carrying $100 million worth of crude off the Somali coast to a $25 million ransom.

The ship destroyed by the Indian warship was described as a mother vessel loaded with food, diesel and water with two speed boats in tow. On the deck were rocket-propelled grenade launchers and guns. The pirates aboard when challenged threatened to blow up the Indian warship then opened fire. After destroying the pirate ship, the Tabar chased one of the speed boats, which was later found abandoned.

The US 5th fleet spokesman and the International Maritime Bureau said it had no reports on the incident. The attack took place 285 nautical miles southwest off Salalah, Oman. DEBKAfile’s counter-terror sources report that this area would be well off the Somali pirates’ beaten track and cause of concern on another score, their proximity to the Strait of Hormuz – unless the vessel hit by the Indian frigate belonged to a different pirate gang or arms smugglers.

The Indian navy says it was the third attack the Indian warship had repelled since its anti-piracy mission began in the Gulf of Aden on Nov. 2. On Nov. 11, Indian naval commandos flying a helicopter foiled an attempt to hijack an Indian merchant ship.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Nov 2008 01:02

my prediction - we are going out to look for a fight and do some serious
damage. no bleating about HR and minority persecution from usual suspects yet. knowing the chaos in that country and general level of violence I guess nobody wants to touch this issue with a 50 foot pole lest they get sucked in.

so be it. good hunting to the INS Mysore. additional Marcos unit, shipons, RCLs and maybe even Milan ATGMs and Denel 50cal AMRs would surely be hauled abroad. and this time they have fast zodiac boats
and night vision gear.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 22 Nov 2008 02:10

praise for IN is universal, even amongst arabs - everyone is sick of the pirates and lack of action

btw - for the avoidance of doubt - i strongly endorse administering an 'assfull of kashtan' to the pirates at regular intervals - and once somali waters are pacified, onwards to malacca!

Avid · Post by **Avid** » 22 Nov 2008 02:20

shiv wrote:
Avid wrote:Shiv the google earth image is from 2002
I know - but the shop looks like 1967 to me.

Darn... I feel better now about my age. At least I cannot make that statement

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 22 Nov 2008 02:26

This is interesting. Didnt know where else to post.

Islamic militants join hunt for pirates in Somalia

"The Islamists arrived searching for the pirates and the whereabouts of the Saudi ship," said the elder, who declined to be identified. "I saw four cars full of Islamists driving in the town from corner to corner. The Islamists say they will attack the pirates for hijacking a Muslim ship."

Sheik Abdirahim Isse Adow, an Islamist spokesman, said: "Saudi Arabia is a Muslim country and hijacking its ship is a bigger crime than other ships. Haradheere is under our control and we shall do something about that ship."

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 22 Nov 2008 03:36

Times of India
Navy action in Gulf of Aden projects Indian power on high seas

Details what needs to be done to make IN more proactive with projecting its power in the Indian Ocean.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 22 Nov 2008 04:04

IN is probably a favored target now for h&d reasons. Wouldn’t discount keedas/pakis helping them with boat-bomb tech either. Don’t know what capability warships have to detect small boats specially at night but I’m sure IN is confident on this score.

I wonder if a destroyer or frigate can keep up with a fast speed boat, again specially at night? The pirates can’t outrun 30mm shells but with a 10-30 knot speed advantage, they can weave out of range. Tabar let one get away at night and that has to be addressed because the pirates are sure to have learned something from it. Perhaps Delhi class destroyer will fix that too.

Rishirishi · Post by **Rishirishi** » 22 Nov 2008 04:56

Victor wrote:IN is probably a favored target now for h&d reasons. Wouldn’t discount keedas/pakis helping them with boat-bomb tech either. Don’t know what capability warships have to detect small boats specially at night but I’m sure IN is confident on this score.

I wonder if a destroyer or frigate can keep up with a fast speed boat, again specially at night? The pirates can’t outrun 30mm shells but with a 10-30 knot speed advantage, they can weave out of range. Tabar let one get away at night and that has to be addressed because the pirates are sure to have learned something from it. Perhaps Delhi class destroyer will fix that too.

It was an execution of the priates. There is no reason why the Pirates would pose any threat or want any "panga" with a military vessel.

Most probably the IN ship approached the Pirates and sunk them. Very likely that it happened at the request of countires like Saudi Arabia. Perhaps India is hoping to score some brownie points with the large Oil producer.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Nov 2008 06:11

Victor wrote:IN is probably a favored target now for h&d reasons. Wouldn’t discount keedas/pakis helping them with boat-bomb tech either. Don’t know what capability warships have to detect small boats specially at night but I’m sure IN is confident on this score.

I wonder if a destroyer or frigate can keep up with a fast speed boat, again specially at night? The pirates can’t outrun 30mm shells but with a 10-30 knot speed advantage, they can weave out of range. Tabar let one get away at night and that has to be addressed because the pirates are sure to have learned something from it. Perhaps Delhi class destroyer will fix that too.

The USS Cole was after all a Paki tactic - a soosaid bum.

Basically any unidentified boat coming close and remaining unresponsive to calls needs to be detected and sent to DJL pronto.

But pirates need supplies and have a home base, and they have friends and allies on that home base. That base need to be hit. This "Hobyo" region appears to be Somalia's FATA - i.e out of control of the "government". See that slideshow - five speedboats being transported in a truck to aid the pirates "war".

Organized crime is like an out of control nation and has a boss/bosses, henchmen, bases, supply routes and safe havens. The piracy is only the final end point of that organization. I would have thought that sea based criminals would be extremely susceptible having their support system choked - the further they get from the shore. At least according to the slideshow - that shop in Hobyo takes calls from pirates, orders stuff, gets deliveries and supplies them - all this is open and blatant only because there is nobody to butt kick them. Agreed it is due to poverty, but if my brother is hostage on a merchant ship just because Somalia is poor I really don't give a damn. Poverty is neither an excuse, nor an explanation for crime. besides, the criminals are richer than most - one pirate made 350,000 US$ in one hijacking. Now tell me how many members would refuse a free infusion of Rs 350, 000 - leave alone 1.5 Crores.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Nov 2008 06:15

Mandeep wrote:There's all round praise in the Western media for the IN's action. I think people are sitting up and taking notice of India's muscle, newly found clout and stable presence in the area.

Right!
Just about now, some moron at the ministry or the PMO is dusting off his superman cape.
We should keep our eye on the ball.
Be careful now that they don't con you into iraq or afghanistan

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Nov 2008 06:28

shiv wrote:
Victor wrote:IN is probably a favored target now for h&d reasons. Wouldn’t discount keedas/pakis helping them with boat-bomb tech either. Don’t know what capability warships have to detect small boats specially at night but I’m sure IN is confident on this score.

I wonder if a destroyer or frigate can keep up with a fast speed boat, again specially at night? The pirates can’t outrun 30mm shells but with a 10-30 knot speed advantage, they can weave out of range. Tabar let one get away at night and that has to be addressed because the pirates are sure to have learned something from it. Perhaps Delhi class destroyer will fix that too.
The USS Cole was after all a Paki tactic - a soosaid bum.

Basically any unidentified boat coming close and remaining unresponsive to calls needs to be detected and sent to DJL pronto.

But pirates need supplies and have a home base, and they have friends and allies on that home base. That base need to be hit. This "Hobyo" region appears to be Somalia's FATA - i.e out of control of the "government". See that slideshow - five speedboats being transported in a truck to aid the pirates "war".

Organized crime is like an out of control nation and has a boss/bosses, henchmen, bases, supply routes and safe havens. The piracy is only the final end point of that organization. I would have thought that sea based criminals would be extremely susceptible having their support system choked - the further they get from the shore. At least according to the slideshow - that shop in Hobyo takes calls from pirates, orders stuff, gets deliveries and supplies them - all this is open and blatant only because there is nobody to butt kick them. Agreed it is due to poverty, but if my brother is hostage on a merchant ship just because Somalia is poor I really don't give a damn. Poverty is neither an excuse, nor an explanation for crime. besides, the criminals are richer than most - one pirate made 350,000 US$ in one hijacking. Now tell me how many members would refuse a free infusion of Rs 350, 000 - leave alone 1.5 Crores.

Amber G. wrote:The gem so far:
Chetak wrote:These pirate guys are businessmen, not morons.

Amber G ji,

I am sure that these guys will get around to campus recruitment soon.The corporate usp is lots of travel and excitement. You can bring your gun to work!

Quite paying as you can see!!

A little risky yes, but then you could get hit by a bus on your way to work, no?

Good 401K plan too.

As a vocation, it probably ranks right up there with the worlds oldest profession.

These guys saw a good business opportunity, chalked out a mean and lean business plan, lined up the financing, made down payment on prime office space in downtown Somalia, recruited the troops and now that business is booming (in more ways than one!!) they will want to go the franchisee route.

Good health and dental plan included.

They will pay for the advertising too.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Nov 2008 06:28

Victor wrote: Don’t know what capability warships have to detect small boats specially at night.

Good point. Wouldn't fiberglass boats be stealthy?

But then again - sonar may pick up signals from boats as well from some distance.

I have absolutely no idea. Anyone with info?

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 22 Nov 2008 06:44

shiv wrote:
Victor wrote: Don’t know what capability warships have to detect small boats specially at night.
Good point. Wouldn't fiberglass boats be stealthy?

But then again - sonar may pick up signals from boats as well from some distance.

I have absolutely no idea. Anyone with info?

Errr...Shiv saar given they are such small targets that would hardly radiate anything, I would imagine that the navy guys would have regular watchs to keep a look out for them, in addition to constantly monitoring the radio waves.

I also think that ESM would be an important tool here as well.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Nov 2008 07:06

Anand Barve wrote:
shiv wrote: Good point. Wouldn't fiberglass boats be stealthy?

But then again - sonar may pick up signals from boats as well from some distance.

I have absolutely no idea. Anyone with info?
Errr...Shiv saar given they are such small targets that would hardly radiate anything, I would imagine that the navy guys would have regular watchs to keep a look out for them, in addition to constantly monitoring the radio waves.

I also think that ESM would be an important tool here as well.

What's ESM?

What about underwater passive sonar - the screw of even a small boat will produce turbulence and should register on a detector or would the ship's own noise drown everything else out.

Are these things towed or what? Again I have no clue - but otherwise how do you detect a speedboat minus lights on a dark night A silent rowboat of course would not catch up with a ship crawling even at 10 knots - I guess. My skills as armchair admiral are inferior to my armchair marshal skills.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 22 Nov 2008 07:18

^^^ You are probably rite ESM wont be able to gather anything here as there probably would be no eletromagnetic radiations.

I dont really know much about sonar at all, but the passive sonar could be used to detect the small crafts.

One more thing, the speed boats dont seem to operate by themselves they operate through the motherships so I guess the mothership (given that its bigger) would be easier to detect. But then the mothership will be further away as the speedboats would detach from the mothership in order to go aboard the target ship.

Speculation speculation....

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 22 Nov 2008 07:24

Apparently, a Marine Corps lieutenant general Van Riper used unconventional tactics during a 2002 wargaming excercise in the gulf, including small suicide speedboats, and was able to take out a carrier task force! His Red Force (bad guys) victory was voided because he was deemed to have "cheated", the umpires saying that the Iraqi general (Van Riper) would never use such tactics! Lot of material available on google.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Nov 2008 07:40

shiv wrote:
Victor wrote: Don’t know what capability warships have to detect small boats specially at night.
Good point. Wouldn't fiberglass boats be stealthy?

But then again - sonar may pick up signals from boats as well from some distance.

I have absolutely no idea. Anyone with info?

Shiv,
Extremely difficult to pickup fiberglass boats at sea. Very low rcs as well as weak radar returns due to the fiberglass itself. They ride low in the water and easily get lost in the clutter.

The props of these boats are just a few feet into the water. Engine and prop sounds will not carry far because they will disperse easily so close to the surface. Signal to noise is also bad.
Ships sonar will not hack it.
On the other hand, a submerged submarine sonar will easily pickup these sounds many many miles away.
How they will separate the wheat from the chaff is another matter.
Could try the ships towed array though. I would certainly experiment.
But then again, no sane captain will stream the towed array so close to traffic. Worth more than his job.
These pirate chappies don't operate in isolation except very rarely.
The saudi tanker was definitely attacked and taken after very specific
inputs to the pirates. It was attacked in an area far far away from their normal zone of interest. They may even have had help from friends on board the tanker, so unusual was the attack. Maybe the pirates homed in on to a radio beacon set up by friendlies on board, whatever.

Its usually very difficult to pick out the pirates from the other normal commercial traffic, except possibly when they go into the final high speed attack phase during which they will simultaneously attempt to approach the target ship from all sides. Sonar could possibly distinguish and isolate these sounds as they would be distinctly different from sounds generated by other traffic.
Many attacks are carried out in full view of commercial and fishing traffic. That the eyewitnesses keep quiet speaks volumes for the clout the pirates wield

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 22 Nov 2008 07:51

imho a SIRIUS type IRST cum LORROS is a must for these colonial wars. capability will be lot better than handhelds, remotely operated and video recording possible. might as well sign on and reel these
in for our OPVs, FFGs especially.

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... p?t=145055

Canada and the Netherlands jointly developed the SIRIUS system under a bilateral memorandum of understanding. DRS Technologies was the main contractor and its industrial partner Thales Nederlands was the main subcontractor.

SIRIUS is a passive search and track system that provides long-range surveillance and tracking under all atmospheric conditions. It also provides high resolution video including panoramic, sector and target views to improve situational awareness. SIRIUS will improve a ship’s self-defence capability against multiple threats as it automatically detects and tracks small surface targets, low flying aircraft and anti-ship missiles that might go undetected by radar. SIRIUS will be used for missions including search and rescue, air operations, covert surveillance, navigation and patrol.

“The warm water trials on HMCS Montréal proved that IRST is valuable adjunct to ships’ self-defence,” Maglieri stated. “No single sensor can do the job all the time against all threats in all environments. When employed together in a complementary and synergistic fash-ion, IRST and radar can provide unbroken detection to the horizon and greatly increase the reaction time available to a ship to deploy her defences.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Nov 2008 07:55

Shiv,
Extremely difficult to pickup fiberglass boats at sea. Very low rcs as well as weak radar returns due to the fiberglass itself. They ride low in the water and easily get lost in the clutter.

The props of these boats are just a few feet into the water. Engine and prop sounds will not carry far because they will disperse easily so close to the surface. Signal to noise is also bad.
Ships sonar will not hack it.

I think we are missing one aspect.
the mothership also has to detect the warship if it wants to attack and for that it has to come within visual range (especially at night. btw would warships operate with lights off, does anyone know ? chetak ?), well inside the ship based sonar's range.

after that it will be eyeball mk1.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Nov 2008 08:17

chetak wrote: The saudi tanker was definitely attacked and taken after very specific
inputs to the pirates. It was attacked in an area far far away from their normal zone of interest. They may even have had help from friends on board the tanker, so unusual was the attack. Maybe the pirates homed in on to a radio beacon set up by friendlies on board, whatever.

Interesting point here.

Is it possible to use the internet to check which ship is passing through the Suez Canal and where it is bound?

Or an employee in some port who has access to this info.

Surely - any shipping agent in any one of a number of ports might have access to where ships are coming from and where they are headed.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Nov 2008 08:27

Amber G. wrote:The gem so far:
Chetak wrote:These pirate guys are businessmen, not morons.

Amber G ji,

Check this out!
http://www.deccanherald.com/DeccanHeral ... updatenews

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Nov 2008 08:35

Rahul M wrote:
Shiv,
Extremely difficult to pickup fiberglass boats at sea. Very low rcs as well as weak radar returns due to the fiberglass itself. They ride low in the water and easily get lost in the clutter.

The props of these boats are just a few feet into the water. Engine and prop sounds will not carry far because they will disperse easily so close to the surface. Signal to noise is also bad.
Ships sonar will not hack it.
I think we are missing one aspect.
the mothership also has to detect the warship if it wants to attack and for that it has to come within visual range (especially at night. btw would warships operate with lights off, does anyone know ? chetak ?), well inside the ship based sonar's range.

after that it will be eyeball mk1.

Rahul,
A Warship at sea and at night, would have only her running lights on.
That is to say, her navigation lights only, every other light would be off.
Even her bridge would be dark with maybe just some low red light to work by. This is to preserve night vision.
A merchantman on the other hand, will usually be lit up like a christmas tree.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Nov 2008 08:51

shiv wrote:
chetak wrote: The saudi tanker was definitely attacked and taken after very specific
inputs to the pirates. It was attacked in an area far far away from their normal zone of interest. They may even have had help from friends on board the tanker, so unusual was the attack. Maybe the pirates homed in on to a radio beacon set up by friendlies on board, whatever.
Interesting point here.

Is it possible to use the internet to check which ship is passing through the Suez Canal and where it is bound?

Or an employee in some port who has access to this info.

Surely - any shipping agent in any one of a number of ports might have access to where ships are coming from and where they are headed.

Shiv,
Movement of commercial traffic is not classified.
Any number of guys have access, including harbour pilots, tug boat crews, harbour master's office, shipping agents or even an enterprising somali businessman who has invested in a cheap motorola set tuned to the right frequency!

This may interest you.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/11/18/ ... irates.php

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Nov 2008 08:58

chetak wrote:Rahul,
A Warship at sea and at night, would have only her running lights on.
That is to say, her navigation lights only, every other light would be off.
Even her bridge would be dark with maybe just some low red light to work by. This is to preserve night vision.
A merchantman on the other hand, will usually be lit up like a christmas tree.

and how far away will that be visible from, assuming clear weather ?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 22 Nov 2008 09:02

Just realized that using IR NVG should be able to pick up moving hot spots of speedboats against a cold water background.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Nov 2008 09:09

Rahul M wrote:
chetak wrote:Rahul,
A Warship at sea and at night, would have only her running lights on.
That is to say, her navigation lights only, every other light would be off.
Even her bridge would be dark with maybe just some low red light to work by. This is to preserve night vision.
A merchantman on the other hand, will usually be lit up like a christmas tree.
and how far away will that be visible from, assuming clear weather ?

With binocs, which are always used by bridge lookouts at night and in clear weather, the only limitation is the horizon.
Normally at night and in clear weather a merchantman will be clearly visible to the naked eye upto the horizon.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 22 Nov 2008 09:10

I was talking about the warship.
TIA.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 22 Nov 2008 09:15

Rahul M wrote:I was talking about the warship.
TIA.

Rahul
Ditto for the warship.
The intensity and visibility of the running lights are specified in maritime convention. The actual number and and arrangement is dependant on the size of the ship.

The merchantman will stand out at night because they have all the accomodation and much of the external bright lights on.

Again as per maritime rules these are also not supposed to be on. I have yet to see a merchant ship follow these rules.
They are quite the cowboys at sea!

Just in case you need to calculate actual distances, here is the formula

Line of Sight Formula

An approximation to calculate the line-of-sight horizon distance is:

* distance in miles = sqrt{1.5 imes A_f} where A_f is the height of the antenna in feet
* distance in kilometres = sqrt{12.7 imes A_m} where A_m is the height of the antenna in metres