Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stability

[chetak]

Re: Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stabi
The Mughals were not very successful at sea-trade, and the Mughal navy managed hardly to defend the coasts against pirates. Pirates definitely have a long dominance and presence in the Arabian sea and the mouth of the Red Sea - as far as we can see from writings of Strabo - with fingers pointed squarely at Nabataens of the Arabian peninsula. The Thaparites try to implicate Indians in piracy during the Islamic expansion based practically on three dubious textual references and one inscription. Textual sources from Chinese and Arab sources indicate that during this entire Islamic period, the fastest and strongest ships were Sri Lankan, and Arab, and that the pirates carried out their depredations in "fast" powerful ships right up to the Red Sea.

I think the tradition continues, in the East Africans and Arabians/Yemenis getting directly or indirectly involved in this escalation of piracy. The Islamic extermist organizations could have a hand in encouraging this as it has an economic impact on trade and energy supply between non-Muslim axes of power running from India to Europe/Russia and USA, as well as the politico-military significance of making the Red-Sea area a non-go zone.

Somalia has to be invaded to solve this problem. The western axis wants India to be drawn in from several reasons (1) more cost effective because of "closer to home" bases (2) if India can be made to cause damage to African countries, Islamic interests, India's possible tactical softness towards Islamic regimes in the area can be preempted (3) if there is retaliation and war, the US at least does not have to face "immediate" costs - it will be borne by India.

Brother,
I like the way you think
You are very right.
Extreme caution would be advised by our political masters

[renukb]

Extreme caution would be advised by our political masters
Not going to happen, as I see Indian politicians are becoming US stooges / poodles.

Closeness with US, means WARS at your doorsteps. They have done it every where including the great USSR. US will ensure that you fight their wars, by dividing your people and imposing their will over yours. They will pitch one neighbour against other, by giving arms to both the sides. Other wise, Israel problem would have been long back resolved.

[Vikas]

Extreme caution would be advised by our political masters
Not going to happen, as I see Indian politicians are becoming US stooges / poodles.

Closeness with US, means WARS at your doorsteps. They have done it every where including the great USSR. US will ensure that you fight their wars, by dividing your people and imposing their will over yours. They will pitch one neighbour against other, by giving arms to both the sides. Other wise, Israel problem would have been long back resolved.

Renukb, Are you Anti-USA or something. Japan,Australia,Germany have been close to US after WW-II but I don't see them waging wars at their doorsteps.
Actually those who have been America's friend have been able to successfully avoid war and bloodshed.
Most of your posts are anti-US without any substantial proof. Yes America is no saint but then others too are crooks.
How is USA responsible for Israel-Palestine Problem not getting resolved?

[abhischekcc]

Extreme caution would be advised by our political masters
Not going to happen, as I see Indian politicians are becoming US stooges / poodles.

Closeness with US, means WARS at your doorsteps. They have done it every where including the great USSR. US will ensure that you fight their wars, by dividing your people and imposing their will over yours. They will pitch one neighbour against other, by giving arms to both the sides. Other wise, Israel problem would have been long back resolved.

Renukb, Are you Anti-USA or something. Japan,Australia,Germany have been close to US after WW-II but I don't see them waging wars at their doorsteps.
Actually those who have been America's friend have been able to successfully avoid war and bloodshed.
Most of your posts are anti-US without any substantial proof. Yes America is no saint but then others too are crooks.
How is USA responsible for Israel-Palestine Problem not getting resolved?

Lets see which friends of America have been able to avoid wars
Pakistan (4 times with India, 2 times in afghanistan)
Iraq (under Saddam when it attacked Iran)
Turkey
S Korea
S Vietnam
Indonesia (civil wars unlimited)
Israel (this one takes rthe cake)
Britain (this one takes the pastry)
Taiwan
Egypt
South Africa (under apartheid)

[renukb]

Renukb, Are you Anti-USA or something.

I don't know if I am anti USA or not, but I am very PRO India.

Japan,Australia,Germany have been close to US after WW-II but I don't see them waging wars at their doorsteps.

Now r u suggesting that India=Japan=Australia=Germany in US eyes? Huh.... Then why does US gives nuclear umbrella to Japan, Australia and Germany, but refused to do so with India while Nehru was the PM of India? If that had happened, the past 60 years would have been entirely different for India.

Actually those who have been America's friend have been able to successfully avoid war and bloodshed.

False notion.... Example Israel... IMO, majority of them are all hijada nations... They Have no TRUE independence, everything 'external in nature' will have to be routed thru Wash DC for the approval.

How is USA responsible for Israel-Palestine Problem not getting resolved?

You tell me why they provide security to Arab nations and protect Israel too... The US doesn't want to resolve any issues, they rather want to keep all issues alive create more hot spots so that they can sell weapons and make $$, while keeping every other nations as their poodles. The moment you want to be 'independent from them (USA)' they will attack you like they did to Saddam...Afghanistan....and now to TSP..tomorrow it ill be some other poodle.. And I don't want India to be one in this list... 'Self reliance thru hard work and sacrifice' is the key mantra, which the next gen Indians seems to have forgotten. What amazes me is the way some people get offended if you say things against their new masters, the (leaders of) USA.

[chetak]

Renukb, Are you Anti-USA or something. Japan,Australia,Germany have been close to US after WW-II but I don't see them waging wars at their doorsteps.
Actually those who have been America's friend have been able to successfully avoid war and bloodshed.
Most of your posts are anti-US without any substantial proof. Yes America is no saint but then others too are crooks.
How is USA responsible for Israel-Palestine Problem not getting resolved?

Lets see which friends of America have been able to avoid wars
Pakistan (4 times with India, 2 times in afghanistan)
Iraq (under Saddam when it attacked Iran)
Turkey
S Korea
S Vietnam
Indonesia (civil wars unlimited)
Israel (this one takes rthe cake)
Britain (this one takes the pastry)
Taiwan
Egypt
South Africa (under apartheid)

The US and the Euros see us as a country with limitless staying power because of a nikama and docile public.
How else do the goras understand the Indian government's endless prevarication to the ruthless and heinous paki attack that has continued for decades. The complete lack of accountability? The utter lack of responsibility, the shameful treatment of your soldiers? Can someone like sonia survive anywhere else in the world?
Our great public raises no outcry when our jawans and officers are massacred even by puny countries like bangaladesh.
Thousands of Indian dead has raised no out cry in our daily press where the cricket news over shadows the army dead.
Our response? Cricket, people to people contacts, SAARC, CBMs, gas pipelines, proposals for visaless travel and other bull.
Whereas in the us and europe even a few returning body bags cause the citizenry to piss on their governments in public.
Any wonder why the US and the euros want us to replace them in iraq and afghanistan?
And they want us to fight piracy? Immediately we begin to talk of convoys escorted by the IN! Shades of PQ17!!

They see us as dim-witted and poor armed coolies, doing endless and thankless un peace keeping duties, transporting our soldiers in war zones in cheap and lousy commercial trucks. We should have leveraged this for something substantial in return.
Its extremely demeaning for Indians to be seen like this. We still continue to beg for a security council seat.
We should teach these blighters a lesson. Stop all peace keeping work. Pull out of all active un participation for a few years. Just doll up, attend parties and smile your way through meetings like the rest of the UN pseudos.
Any other country in our place would have sorted out the pakis and the bangladeshis and settled matters once and for all and be done with it. We should close the bangladesh borders and shoot EVERY moron who tries to cross the border,including sorry , especially the candle kissers.

But we keep pussyfooting around, begging to be taken advantage of. Losing on the negotiating table what was hard won in battle. In any other country, the public would have immediately removed such leaders, probably had them swinging from the gallows for treason.

We are pushed around by china, nepal, srilanka.... Who next, maldives? Others beleaguer us in economic forums beating us down for market access. Even piddly indonesia,malaysia demand that we set our customs duties as per their pleasure.
We get nothing in return.
Keep your respect,behave like a sovereign nation. Hold up your head high and deal with every other country in a manner befitting your economic and military strength.
Not shamefully like mms gushed over bush!!
They want to outsource their wars to us. They value their lives above ours.

[ldev]

Keep your respect,behave like a sovereign nation. Hold up your head high and deal with every other country in a manner befitting your economic and military strength.
Not shamefully like mms gushed over bush!!
They want to outsource their wars to us. They value their lives above ours.

Wah, wah, Chetakji, kya dialogue hai,

I dont want to trivialize what is a serious issue, but have you thought about the fact that you are treated as a nation, the way you treat your own people? When Indians respect Indians, only then will foreigners treat Indians with respect. What sovereign nation has such politicos of both shades of left and right where other significant nations such as the US and Russia know where the bodies are buried aka where the loot is stashed and hence know that they can treat the country's FMs with impunity. When foreign politicos loot, they at least keep the location of the loot a secret so they are not vulnerable at least by foreign nations.

As for them valuing their lives over ours.... do we value our own compatriots lives? I will give you a crude example. I was in India recently, do you know how much it costs to take out a supari on an average Indian.... it was the subject at a dinner conversation in India recently..... I was shocked at the low low amount. Try and get a supari in the west and find out the cost? Again a very cynical example... but it tells you the comparative cost of lives.

[brihaspati]

The basic problem behind all this - from the low cost of the supari to being pushed around by all and sundry - comes from the basic inability so far in Indians to be clear about what they understand as the Indian nation. There is hardly any uniform consensus about what it means to be an Indian and what we should understand the concept of the Indian nation to be! Indians do not identify with other Indians - probably becuase of long habit of "simply surviving" by any means - compromise, boot-licking, betrayals, no commitment to any long lasting principle of survival not only of the individual but also of some society held together by a single set of ideas - a nation.

Strategically speaking, the raid on Somalia should be spearheaded by the British and Americans stationed in their island base in the Indian Ocean - and put their presence to better use than keeping an eye out on India and trying to help in ensuring that Pakistan continues to exist - pressure to be put on the Saudi to rein in the Sunni Wahabi organizations indirectly sponsored by the Saudi state and most likely to be involved behind escalation of piracy as part of overall Jihadi strategy to gain funds, arms and military-political control of the area (they themselves are beginning to be at the receiving end). The British and the Americans are squarely responsibile for foisting, encouraging and maintaining the Jihadi Islamic marauders in their Cold War blindness to tackle communism - and now they are trying to escape from the battle-field.

In any case Indians have to decide on the nature of their nation, and increase their military capabilities not only for defensive moves but also for offensive ones - an increasingly necessary capability for the future. In the future, Diego Garcia perhaps should be negotiated on to be transferred to Indian control - as part of a strategic expansion needed by India if the west wants India to share the burden of policing Indian Ocean. India can and should engage in military roles but only in those that enhance its own strategic reach and in return the "beneficiaries" should be made to "pay".

[chetak]

Keep your respect,behave like a sovereign nation. Hold up your head high and deal with every other country in a manner befitting your economic and military strength.
Not shamefully like mms gushed over bush!!
They want to outsource their wars to us. They value their lives above ours.

Wah, wah, Chetakji, kya dialogue hai,

I dont want to trivialize what is a serious issue, but have you thought about the fact that you are treated as a nation, the way you treat your own people? When Indians respect Indians, only then will foreigners treat Indians with respect. What sovereign nation has such politicos of both shades of left and right where other significant nations such as the US and Russia know where the bodies are buried aka where the loot is stashed and hence know that they can treat the country's FMs with impunity. When foreign politicos loot, they at least keep the location of the loot a secret so they are not vulnerable at least by foreign nations.

As for them valuing their lives over ours.... do we value our own compatriots lives? I will give you a crude example. I was in India recently, do you know how much it costs to take out a supari on an average Indian.... it was the subject at a dinner conversation in India recently..... I was shocked at the low low amount. Try and get a supari in the west and find out the cost? Again a very cynical example... but it tells you the comparative cost of lives.

My Dear Sir,
Its not a dialog. I am old fashioned. I really feel bad when I see India belittled on the international arena.
However you have a valid point but on a higher philosophical plane i think.
We have been divided and ruled for centuries. It will take time, education and maybe some generational change to bring about the situation that you look for.
In the meanwhile we peaceably let in all sorts of kooks from significant nations to spread this very disrespect that is raked up here. Some in the name of human rights, some for religious freedom and some for fundamental rights.
Democracy is good for others no?

As for the loot, I have been open to bribery and corruption for many years now but sadly, no joy till date!

Supari? I personally know some worthies who would immeasurably benefit from being on the receiving end of one!
We shall leave that for another day.
Prevailing supari rates is hardly a measure of the value of life in countries.
In India, I believe that even before the hit is completed they turn upon you, not to mention the squeeze that they would put on you after the deed is done. Caveat emptor!
May not be very different elsewhere too.There is nothing like a moral hitman!
Benign and tasty supari in pan shop only!

[RajeshA]

Suparis have lower rates in India simply because

o the cost of labor is lower
o the cost of living is lower
o much easier to carry out the order, because of lower security
o lower risk of getting caught, because of less effective law and order services
o lower risk of getting sentenced, because of moribund and overloaded courts

Does not say much on the value of life in India. There are however other indicators to make such a claim.

[Paul]

Something to chew upon;

The drug runners working through the islamists in afghanistan and pakistan are able to bring billions of dollars to the table to do the dirty work for the west while providing plausible deniability to the sponsors.

IOW...they are the force multipliers for the anglo-saxons in the great game. They are able to further western interests without further burdening th etax payer.

What are India's force multipliers in the great game??

[ramana]

Chetak, Renukb et al, This is not a whine thread to cry about India and its people. I am sure you all have well considered opinions on this matter. Please stop that type of posts.

Thanks, ramana

[vsudhir]

Seems to me the great gamers will not be happy to see zardari offering yindia access to all that the great game was designed to deny - access to CAR, to ME, trade and energy corridors etc. Of couyrse, these are 10%'s wet dreams and have no hope in hell of seeing daylight, perhaps thats why, the gamers are smug.

The IPI thingie also raised multiple hackles prolly coz the great game itself would have been circumvented had it gone through successfully. Of course, again, lotsa poroblems with it passing thru TSP territory, so it was very unlikely to ever see the light of day to start with.

Who are the islamists playing for? The anti-pak taliban is a pushtu nationalist movement, hence is unlikely to be sponsored by outside powers? Is that credible? The pakiban seemt to be fighting everybody - they are against TSP, against NATO, against PRC, against even yindia maybe. How arethey getting support and sustenance in a landlocked region then? Who is funding, arming and managing their ops? Some big things are missing from the jigsaw puzzle.

[brihaspati]

We leave out a lot of potential suspects simply because we see the smiling faces of their diplomats or heads of states visiting India or having cheerful small talk with Indian "dignitaries" abroad. A very simple principle of "who benefits from the crime" could be applied.

China : has every reasons based on its ruling psyche and recent history to sponsor (even after getting burnt a bit over the Lal Mosque) the Taleban from behind. It has the means too - the Karakorum highway is under its virtual control. It desperately want the USA to be removed from the Asian scene, and it needs to maintain the land-barrier between Russia and India. US advance towards neutralization of Taleban in the Multan-Kabul corridor (always a strategic tug-o-war place to control India from the NW - start thinking from the Achaemenian/Sassanid empire, and the Arab/Turkish expansion from 700-1000, with "Hindu" Kashmir forming alliances with Chinese to block Muslims going further east) means big problem for China.

Iran : even if planning a gas pipeline, Iran has no reasons to be sympathetic to India. The reformist faction has lost in the parliamentary elections signalling a return to Ayatollaic orthodoxy - probably helped a lot by the Iraq war and the hezbollah winning Lebanon. Shias have been targeted in Pakistan, and Pakistan has played it cool with the Baluchis - a cat and mouse game that could be interpreted by Iran as sometimes soft on Baluchi separatism affecting the Irannian Baluchi side too or using it to extract more from Iran in pipeline deals. Pak role in trying to prevent Indian efforts to complete the "ring road" in Afg connecting Iranian port acccess cannot gain Iranian sympathy either. Presence of US in the Afg is a thorn on Iranian side and its capture of the Multan-Kabul corridor brings it in even closer "reach" bypassing the Kar Gul desert to the Caspian sea heartland of northern Iran.

Saudi Arabia : Pakistan could toy with the idea of playing it soft with India, which infuriates the Sunni clergy in Arabia, and the royalty depend for their existence on the critical balance of forces maintained by the Wahabi control over the society at large (the original foundation of the state starting with Wahab and the house of Saud itself - the three swords that "unified" Saudis - sword of "faith" Wahab, and the metal sword and the sword of "flesh" carried by his ally the Saudi Prince).

Western "freelancers" : this could be a multi-billion dollar business of supplying arms, skills and up-to-date technology, not necessarily sponsored by the governments, but tacitly allowed because of financial considerations and powerful transnational arms industry pressures.

No guerrila army today can win against the organized modern resourceful state - for the technology of war needs increasingly sophisticated top-of-the-industrial-pyramid output which is continuously being replenished and transformed, unless balancing technology is provided by the only modern source now possible - the army and defence industry of a modern nation state.

[brihaspati]

Just to add : no reason to drop Pakistan itself from the list.

It can seem contradictory, but we should keep in mind the various power centres within the Pakistan state itself, and their various aims. The Pak army is led by officers coming predominantly from the landed aristocracy - driven by the obsession to maintain control over land which originally had them convert to Islam. Given that a sequence of generals, including Zia, had turned fundamentalist and allowed extremist Wahabi proselytization networks through the madrassahs, whole generations of non-aristocratic Pakistanis have grown up Jihadist. The army must have had to recruit the common infantry from this, and they may very well have their sympathies clearly cut out in favour of the Taleban.

Kiani, a protege brought to power from managing the ISI, by Musharraf could only have agreed to "convince" his guru to abdicate if he had been offered more resources and freer hand to carry out ISI operations against India by the "civilian" government. ISI-Pakistani army commands' nexus with the Taleban could well be playing out in this game where sections of the army secretly or openly collaborate with the Taleban, and could be providing them with intelligence and resources.

The US and the British could be playing on both sides of this fence with various interests within them playing for different ends - maintain pressure on India to follow in line, by helping taleban+Pak army on one side and showing that they are fighting Talepakarmy outwardly.

[ramana]

Paul posted on Sept 4, 2008

5 - 10 years is reasonable. Very imp Question IMO is : Wht about northern area of POK?

I think breaking away J&K from india and join it with POK as a separate state is gaining more urgency. If the west did not want Northern areas to come to India in 1947, why should they want it to happen now.

Recall ralph peters maps of redrawn middle east show J&K as a separate state from India.

This could be the co-relation between the detirioriating health of Pakistan and the pressure on GOI to settle J&K that we keep hearing about.

Can now see the contours of Reidel plan and the Obama questions. The key is to take away Kashmir from India.

[V_Raman]

does take away kashmir mean making LOC as IB? or taking more territory?

[satya]

If J&K is to be separated from India then it will happen through so called democratic mechanisms , higher turnout in current J&K assembly elections for one . As a first step , we may see a NC/PDP govt. in J&K and passing a resolution & establishing more contacts across LoC under the supervision of J&K govt. It may well be followed by sham election in PoK and a resolution will be passed by both sides to create sort of a council to monitor certain 'non-objectionable' acitivities like trade & tourism under 'joint management' of this unified council of J&K on one side & PoK on other side .

Idea is to make people in both India & TSP feel comfortable in their notion of having gained advantage in J&K making sure any objection towards such a step will be deemed 'anti-national' . Once the comfort level reaches a certain level , we may see as a 'next step' with media headlines 'seize the initiative/take the initiative to solve this problem forever ' tone that will effectively allow J&K as separate entity all but in name (Withdrawl of IA from J&K will gain momentum ) . This will be the most critical step ,with India Media in tune & terrorism level down even further , it will not be an 'impossible' feat to achieve with active US to make sure such steps are taken .
If i am not wrong , we will see extremely low terror activities in J&K in 2009 irrespective of which party forms the next govt.

JMHOs

[Ananth]

The noise about JK will increase as we move into future. Well that is the only option before Unkil to keep India on backfoot. Now US is fiscally bankrupt inspite of all the pretensions and is relatively weak vis-a-vis other centers of power. The relative power differential has to compensated by other means. If one can mentally destabilize the competitors with mere words then why not do that. That is precisely what US is doing. India must entertain Clinton and company with endless chai-biscoot session and treat all the initiatives with the seriousness a little kid treats his dirty diaper. And on top of that if they want to discuss CTBT, NPT, PSI etc, sure we will discuss that too.

The fundamental assumption of American elite is that their forces are needed for imperial tasks outside their homeland. That assumption will be severely tested in these dire economic situations. This economic downturn will result in largest increase in unemployed frustrated people with lack of faith in the American system. This means forces need to be pulled from overseas to police American streets instead of keeping an eye on "the great leader". The point is that the "supari market" will increase inside America as the situation deteriorates with top leadership bankrupt of ideas. As the domestic problems within US will increase, the American prescriptions will become more irritating.

If America would be interested in solving Kashmir problem then India would definitely want to bid for policing contracts that under-budgeted muncipalities in US will be issuing as crime rate climbs.

[Anujan]

The noise about JK will increase as we move into future. Well that is the only option before Unkil to keep India on backfoot. Now US is fiscally bankrupt inspite of all the pretensions and is relatively weak vis-a-vis other centers of power. The relative power differential has to compensated by other means. If one can mentally destabilize the competitors with mere words then why not do that. That is precisely what US is doing. India must entertain Clinton and company with endless chai-biscoot session and treat all the initiatives with the seriousness a little kid treats his dirty diaper. And on top of that if they want to discuss CTBT, NPT, PSI etc, sure we will discuss that too.

This noise about JK is nothing new. Every administration has a few things to say about "self determination" and "human rights" before needs of realpolitik takes over. BO might make a few noises about JK not because of any desire to "mentally destabilize" but because he has to pay obeisance to his stated goal of "restoring respect" to the US and making it once again "the torch bearer of human rights".

If the US is serious about competing, they should take a look at China first. They hold $2 trillion in reserves and are rapidly building up their military and economic strength. Even though I am happy at the progress that desh is making, let us have a reality check first. The combined market cap of all of our banks is less than the money Citigroup lost. We consume less energy than the state of California. Indo-US bilateral trade is $30b - about the same money as the big three automakers want as a bailout. Competition ? what competition ? Any sane US leader will realize that the economic salvation of US lies in developing India as a market, rather than destabilizing India.

[svinayak]

If the US is serious about competing, they should take a look at China first. They hold $2 trillion in reserves and are rapidly building up their military and economic strength. Even though I am happy at the progress that desh is making, let us have a reality check first. The combined market cap of all of our banks is less than the money Citigroup lost. We consume less energy than the state of California. Indo-US bilateral trade is $30b - about the same money as the big three automakers want as a bailout. Competition ? what competition ? Any sane US leader will realize that the economic salvation of US lies in developing India as a market, rather than destabilizing India.

US wants China as a partner in trade and use China as a pivot in the Asian landmass.
India does not matter in the calculations of US - asian strategy

[satya]

A few things in present are terribly against India inspite of us being in better position than say 10-15 years ago :

1. Fifth Estate/Media has become well trenched . The marketmakers/ issue makers in Indian Politics have completely gone in hands of anti-nationalists . Earlier it use to be Gandhis only but now there are multiples with Gandhis in name only .

2. Dis-integration of USSR opened up new opportunities that were previously not available .

3. Rise of PRC with its economy more or less dependent primarily on US & EU market makes sure that PRC's & Anglo-american interests are on same boat .

4. TSP as an entity has lost its value , its fragmentation in multiple smaller emirates serves western interests much better in coming days since jihadi terrorism has been fine tuned to serve not only as a force multiplier but as the spearhead against India , Russia & last PRC if required .

5. So long USD continues to be fiat currency , US isn't bankrupt unless Fed's printing press runs out of paper or ink . TINA atleast till 2020 min. Its impact is way overblown . Kinda psyops from western media to make sure that US is down so it can't do harm to others to further its interests , interests will be furthered but in a different way . Western eyesight on their interests isn't blurred in this current economic crisis .

6. India is a market , yes sir West agrees & they know it since very first European arrived on our soil ( exploited it well enough to enrich themselves, ) , what's new you are telling in that , all they want is this educated & thinking brain of Indian masses to further their interests . Idea of India has developed to a degree where west feel comfortable anything beyond isn't in tune with their interests so christianity has to be the religion of India .

7. Regional / state level political parties are here to stay & its producing political leaders who can't think beyond their consituencies , national parties are on a decline . Be ready for a surprise in coming Delhi Assembly Elections , elephant is on the move . And why is that ? a very simple answer : average voter in today's India want a direct access to the MLA/ MP representing his constituency irrespective of the party he represents .
Atleast earlier under IG & to some extent under RG , they didn't need to worry about each buffalo not giving milk in each village of India now its different. This is another venue that was missing earlier against India now its here.

Creation of an independent J&K with several emirates on our western border , we say forever good bye to CAR .


JMHTs again.

[Prem]

Every problem is an oppertunity. Small states on our periphery will be easy to pick on. All we need is another decade of economic devlopment thus bringing out some serious ability to dish out the punishment to our real and perceived enemies.
We have onlee one supposed weakness and i.e of immature political class still under the control of pre 47 generation. Generational shift and economic achievment will co-incide by 2020 and then we can open our cards and test which power can afford panga .With Kangress gone in coming election then we will have one more left to elect new government and get out of the woods for ever . Instead of worrying about external factors imho its more important to pay attention to domestic enemies a.k.a hidden traitors who are always busy creating road bocks on the path of inernal cohesion and effective response to national security threats.

[svinayak]

We have onlee one supposed weakness and i.e of immature political class still under the control of pre 47 generation. Genrational shift and economic achievment will co-incide by 2020 and then we can open our cards and test which power can afford panga .With Kangress gone in coming election then we will have one more left to elect new government and get out of the wood for ever .

We want that generation for maturity and traditions. We need better advisors and think tanks for this generation.

[Prem]

Acharya ji,
If they have maturity and followed Indic traidtions we wont be needing their replacement.

[brihaspati]

Any demand for separate Kashmir should be immediately be followed with a counter-demand of all the following together :
(1) return of POK to India (2) stop "inhuman repression" on largest religious "minority" of Sind, the "Hindus", and warn that otherwise it becomes necessary to incorporate Sind as a province of India to prevent "atrocities" (3) warn that Baluchi "independence" would be supported.
The Islamo-anglophile Centre-Left simply vaguely mumbles about Sind once in a while. However, it will be easy to "provoke" the Pakistani promoters of the Taleban to react in the way we want. War is deception and deception is war according to the prophet of Islam. Erasure of Pakistan and everything Islamic on the subcontinent is the long-term counter-plan to the long-term plan of Islam and their secret supporters within the western camp. It is important to maintain arms race pressure on Pakistan (the tactic successfully used by the West against USSR), and detract it as much as possible in various forms of "low intensity" warfare. There has to be a concrete plan of reducing the Islamic bulkhead to the traditional areas of first Arab/Turkic presence - Multan. Eventually, Afghanistan has to be blockaded and its Islamic leadership eliminated. A leaf taken out of the prophet of Islam's successful strategy in liquidating the Jewish presence in northern Arabia can be applied back on Islam. The key is the removal of the theological leadership - in all "possible" ways, and use the same strategies Islam used to eliminate non-Islamic cultures. Humanitarian considerations cannot be claimed to be applied on ideologies that do not accept such principles themselves on non-followers of their ideology.

[RamaY]

A leaf taken out of the prophet of Islam's successful strategy in liquidating the Jewish presence in northern Arabia can be applied back on Islam. The key is the removal of the theological leadership - in all "possible" ways, and use the same strategies Islam used to eliminate non-Islamic cultures. Humanitarian considerations cannot be claimed to be applied on ideologies that do not accept such principles themselves on non-followers of their ideology.

Brihaspati garu -

Islam used genocide and destruction of native cultural icons to spread its ideology. We cannot do Islam the damage it did to the rest of humanity.

Since we cannot advocate genocide in the current context, we need creative solutions to undo this damage so the present Muslim society understands what it means to be culturally invaded.

This is the only solution IMO to stop the ongoing Islamic onslaught on modern human society. But it requires proper timing, clinical execution, and international coalition to implement such a strategy. I don’t think we are close to such situation.

[Prem]

We cannot be cruel like Islamists , its not in our blood or soul as we are the first to feel pity for our own enemy . Followers of Islam will not understand this behaviour till Judgement night. The practical thing we can do is to apply Islam on them in reality and let them enjoy the Dhimmii rights and previlages. If they dont like it, they can join Dharma and live the life of Dhimmis which will end the way of repressive living in 2 generation. Fact of the matter is they have religion based issues with almost every society they live in and it dont take long beofre the national security is effected.

[RamaY]

We cannot be cruel like Islamists , its not in our blood or soul as we are the first to feel pity for our own enemy . Followers of Islam will not understand this behaviour till Judgement night. The practical thing we can do is to apply Islam on them in reality and let them enjoy the Dhimmii rights and previlages. If they dont like it, they can join Dharma and live the life of Dhimmis which will end the way of repressive living in 2 generation. Fact of the matter is they have religion based issues with almost every society they live in and it dont take long beofre the national security is effected.

Treating someone like Dhimmi spanning generations is not a practical and easy task when we talk about consciousness...

We need a cleaner and simpler solution which can be applied once and have the impact stay forever…

[NRao]

Blood borders : How a better Middle East would look

Very interesting take.

Assocaited maps

June, 2006.

By Ralph Peters

International borders are never completely just. But the degree of injustice they inflict upon those whom frontiers force together or separate makes an enormous difference — often the difference between freedom and oppression, tolerance and atrocity, the rule of law and terrorism, or even peace and war.

The most arbitrary and distorted borders in the world are in Africa and the Middle East. Drawn by self-interested Europeans (who have had sufficient trouble defining their own frontiers), Africa’s borders continue to provoke the deaths of millions of local inhabitants. But the unjust borders in the Middle East — to borrow from Churchill — generate more trouble than can be consumed locally.

While the Middle East has far more problems than dysfunctional borders alone — from cultural stagnation through scandalous inequality to deadly religious extremism — the greatest taboo in striving to understand the region’s comprehensive failure isn’t Islam but the awful-but-sacrosanct international boundaries worshipped by our own diplomats.

Of course, no adjustment of borders, however draconian, could make every minority in the Middle East happy. In some instances, ethnic and religious groups live intermingled and have intermarried. Elsewhere, reunions based on blood or belief might not prove quite as joyous as their current proponents expect. The boundaries projected in the maps accompanying this article redress the wrongs suffered by the most significant “cheated” population groups, such as the Kurds, Baluch and Arab Shia, but still fail to account adequately for Middle Eastern Christians, Bahais, Ismailis, Naqshbandis and many another numerically lesser minorities. And one haunting wrong can never be redressed with a reward of territory: the genocide perpetrated against the Armenians by the dying Ottoman Empire.

Yet, for all the injustices the borders re-imagined here leave unaddressed, without such major boundary revisions, we shall never see a more peaceful Middle East.

Even those who abhor the topic of altering borders would be well-served to engage in an exercise that attempts to conceive a fairer, if still imperfect, amendment of national boundaries between the Bosporus and the Indus. Accepting that international statecraft has never developed effective tools — short of war — for readjusting faulty borders, a mental effort to grasp the Middle East’s “organic” frontiers nonetheless helps us understand the extent of the difficulties we face and will continue to face. We are dealing with colossal, man-made deformities that will not stop generating hatred and violence until they are corrected.

As for those who refuse to “think the unthinkable,” declaring that boundaries must not change and that’s that, it pays to remember that boundaries have never stopped changing through the centuries. Borders have never been static, and many frontiers, from Congo through Kosovo to the Caucasus, are changing even now (as ambassadors and special representatives avert their eyes to study the shine on their wingtips).

Oh, and one other dirty little secret from 5,000 years of history: Ethnic cleansing works.

Begin with the border issue most sensitive to American readers: For Israel to have any hope of living in reasonable peace with its neighbors, it will have to return to its pre-1967 borders — with essential local adjustments for legitimate security concerns. But the issue of the territories surrounding Jerusalem, a city stained with thousands of years of blood, may prove intractable beyond our lifetimes. Where all parties have turned their god into a real-estate tycoon, literal turf battles have a tenacity unrivaled by mere greed for oil wealth or ethnic squabbles. So let us set aside this single overstudied issue and turn to those that are studiously ignored.

The most glaring injustice in the notoriously unjust lands between the Balkan Mountains and the Himalayas is the absence of an independent Kurdish state. There are between 27 million and 36 million Kurds living in contiguous regions in the Middle East (the figures are imprecise because no state has ever allowed an honest census). Greater than the population of present-day Iraq, even the lower figure makes the Kurds the world’s largest ethnic group without a state of its own. Worse, Kurds have been oppressed by every government controlling the hills and mountains where they’ve lived since Xenophon’s day.

The U.S. and its coalition partners missed a glorious chance to begin to correct this injustice after Baghdad’s fall. A Frankenstein’s monster of a state sewn together from ill-fitting parts, Iraq should have been divided into three smaller states immediately. We failed from cowardice and lack of vision, bullying Iraq’s Kurds into supporting the new Iraqi government — which they do wistfully as a quid pro quo for our good will. But were a free plebiscite to be held, make no mistake: Nearly 100 percent of Iraq’s Kurds would vote for independence.

As would the long-suffering Kurds of Turkey, who have endured decades of violent military oppression and a decades-long demotion to “mountain Turks” in an effort to eradicate their identity. While the Kurdish plight at Ankara’s hands has eased somewhat over the past decade, the repression recently intensified again and the eastern fifth of Turkey should be viewed as occupied territory. As for the Kurds of Syria and Iran, they, too, would rush to join an independent Kurdistan if they could. The refusal by the world’s legitimate democracies to champion Kurdish independence is a human-rights sin of omission far worse than the clumsy, minor sins of commission that routinely excite our media. And by the way: A Free Kurdistan, stretching from Diyarbakir through Tabriz, would be the most pro-Western state between Bulgaria and Japan.

A just alignment in the region would leave Iraq’s three Sunni-majority provinces as a truncated state that might eventually choose to unify with a Syria that loses its littoral to a Mediterranean-oriented Greater Lebanon: Phoenecia reborn. The Shia south of old Iraq would form the basis of an Arab Shia State rimming much of the Persian Gulf. Jordan would retain its current territory, with some southward expansion at Saudi expense. For its part, the unnatural state of Saudi Arabia would suffer as great a dismantling as Pakistan.

A root cause of the broad stagnation in the Muslim world is the Saudi royal family’s treatment of Mecca and Medina as their fiefdom. With Islam’s holiest shrines under the police-state control of one of the world’s most bigoted and oppressive regimes — a regime that commands vast, unearned oil wealth — the Saudis have been able to project their Wahhabi vision of a disciplinarian, intolerant faith far beyond their borders. The rise of the Saudis to wealth and, consequently, influence has been the worst thing to happen to the Muslim world as a whole since the time of the Prophet, and the worst thing to happen to Arabs since the Ottoman (if not the Mongol) conquest.

While non-Muslims could not effect a change in the control of Islam’s holy cities, imagine how much healthier the Muslim world might become were Mecca and Medina ruled by a rotating council representative of the world’s major Muslim schools and movements in an Islamic Sacred State — a sort of Muslim super-Vatican — where the future of a great faith might be debated rather than merely decreed. True justice — which we might not like — would also give Saudi Arabia’s coastal oil fields to the Shia Arabs who populate that subregion, while a southeastern quadrant would go to Yemen. Confined to a rump Saudi Homelands Independent Territory around Riyadh, the House of Saud would be capable of far less mischief toward Islam and the world.

Iran, a state with madcap boundaries, would lose a great deal of territory to Unified Azerbaijan, Free Kurdistan, the Arab Shia State and Free Baluchistan, but would gain the provinces around Herat in today’s Afghanistan — a region with a historical and linguistic affinity for Persia. Iran would, in effect, become an ethnic Persian state again, with the most difficult question being whether or not it should keep the port of Bandar Abbas or surrender it to the Arab Shia State.

What Afghanistan would lose to Persia in the west, it would gain in the east, as Pakistan’s Northwest Frontier tribes would be reunited with their Afghan brethren (the point of this exercise is not to draw maps as we would like them but as local populations would prefer them). Pakistan, another unnatural state, would also lose its Baluch territory to Free Baluchistan. The remaining “natural” Pakistan would lie entirely east of the Indus, except for a westward spur near Karachi.

The city-states of the United Arab Emirates would have a mixed fate — as they probably will in reality. Some might be incorporated in the Arab Shia State ringing much of the Persian Gulf (a state more likely to evolve as a counterbalance to, rather than an ally of, Persian Iran). Since all puritanical cultures are hypocritical, Dubai, of necessity, would be allowed to retain its playground status for rich debauchees. Kuwait would remain within its current borders, as would Oman.

In each case, this hypothetical redrawing of boundaries reflects ethnic affinities and religious communalism — in some cases, both. Of course, if we could wave a magic wand and amend the borders under discussion, we would certainly prefer to do so selectively. Yet, studying the revised map, in contrast to the map illustrating today’s boundaries, offers some sense of the great wrongs borders drawn by Frenchmen and Englishmen in the 20th century did to a region struggling to emerge from the humiliations and defeats of the 19th century.

Correcting borders to reflect the will of the people may be impossible. For now. But given time — and the inevitable attendant bloodshed — new and natural borders will emerge. Babylon has fallen more than once.

Meanwhile, our men and women in uniform will continue to fight for security from terrorism, for the prospect of democracy and for access to oil supplies in a region that is destined to fight itself. The current human divisions and forced unions between Ankara and Karachi, taken together with the region’s self-inflicted woes, form as perfect a breeding ground for religious extremism, a culture of blame and the recruitment of terrorists as anyone could design. Where men and women look ruefully at their borders, they look enthusiastically for enemies.

From the world’s oversupply of terrorists to its paucity of energy supplies, the current deformations of the Middle East promise a worsening, not an improving, situation. In a region where only the worst aspects of nationalism ever took hold and where the most debased aspects of religion threaten to dominate a disappointed faith, the U.S., its allies and, above all, our armed forces can look for crises without end. While Iraq may provide a counterexample of hope — if we do not quit its soil prematurely — the rest of this vast region offers worsening problems on almost every front.

If the borders of the greater Middle East cannot be amended to reflect the natural ties of blood and faith, we may take it as an article of faith that a portion of the bloodshed in the region will continue to be our own.

• • •

WHO WINS, WHO LOSES

Winners —

Afghanistan

Arab Shia State

Armenia

Azerbaijan

Free Baluchistan

Free Kurdistan

Iran

Islamic Sacred State

Jordan

Lebanon

Yemen

•

Losers —

Afghanistan

Iran

Iraq

Israel

Kuwait

Pakistan

Qatar

Saudi Arabia

Syria

Turkey

United Arab Emirates

West Bank

[Prem]

We cannot be cruel like Islamists , its not in our blood or soul as we are the first to feel pity for our own enemy . Followers of Islam will not understand this behaviour till Judgement night. The practical thing we can do is to apply Islam on them in reality and let them enjoy the Dhimmii rights and previlages. If they dont like it, they can join Dharma and live the life of Dhimmis which will end the way of repressive living in 2 generation. Fact of the matter is they have religion based issues with almost every society they live in and it dont take long beofre the national security is effected.

Treating someone like Dhimmi spanning generations is not a practical and easy task when we talk about consciousness...

We need a cleaner and simpler solution which can be applied once and have the impact stay forever…

Dhimmi status can be legitimized by making appropriate laws passed by the parliamnet. The Dhimmi Status offer should be discussed with Ulema as Islam is complete way of life ordianed by Allah and Muslims should live accordingly and must accept minority i.e reverse Dhimmi status. If not , they can deny the divine commnad and migrate to other lands. The choice should be given so they can choose freely for there should be no compulsion on selecting their destiny per religion or sovreign laws.

[NRao]

As long as the word "Infidel" exists, THE problem will exist.

[RamaY]

As long as the word "Infidel" exists, THE problem will exist.

There are few creative solutions to the Infidel problem without advocating genocide... but the time is not right... an international critical mass needs to be achieved before such an option is considered kosher to be discussed on open forums...

[ramana]

Peters still links Sindh with Pakjab and that ensures TSP viability. As one RAPE said Karachi is the jaguar whine(Jugular vein) of the TSP and not Peshawar etc. The only correct map is that advanced by India in 1947. Sindh has to be separated from Pakjab. In fact it has long term ramifications if this happens.

We need to reappraise BB's death and muse over what could have happened but for her untimely death.

[svinayak]

Peters still links Sindh with Pakjab and that ensures TSP viability. As one RAPE said Karachi is the jaguar whine(Jugular vein) of the TSP and not Peshawar etc. The only correct map is that advanced by India in 1947. Sindh has to be separated from Pakjab. In fact it has long term ramifications if this happens.

We need to reappraise BB's death and muse over what could have happened but for her untimely death.

Do you think a pan Indian Identity of the mohajirs and what BB was trying to do is a solution for the future

[chetak]

We cannot be cruel like Islamists , its not in our blood or soul as we are the first to feel pity for our own enemy . Followers of Islam will not understand this behaviour till Judgement night. The practical thing we can do is to apply Islam on them in reality and let them enjoy the Dhimmii rights and previlages. If they dont like it, they can join Dharma and live the life of Dhimmis which will end the way of repressive living in 2 generation. Fact of the matter is they have religion based issues with almost every society they live in and it dont take long beofre the national security is effected.

We have subscribed to such views for a long time and got nowhere.
Very soon we will have no blood or soul left.
Pity for the enemy may have its place but survival is a primary instinct.
Maybe the time has come to try other methods.
We have no definition of dhimmi, its a word from Indian culture.

[brihaspati]

I am not advocating killing women and children. On many occasions, the prophet of Islam did not kill the Jews, but the "Jews" simply "left" the place. Islam will carry out one agenda, if you leave it even in "dhimmitude" - it will multiply and use your own protective laws to increase in number until it can carry out relentless terror of attrition so that you either give out of tiredness or simply have all the "disgruntled" criminal elements of your own joining them for land, loot and women to which they otherwise did not have access. (on a lighter tone - having seen the great fondness for beef among Bangladeshi muslims - I sometimes wonder whetehr the Buddhist prohibition against "meat" and "Hindu" prohibition against beef was not a ggreat incentive to "convert"! ).

In war, we have to plan to eliminate the Islamic leadership - without them, the retrogression back towards 7th century Arabic Ghazwa psychology can be tackled easier. It is a weakness of strategic mentality in not matching the strategy of the enemy - because it is against our "principles" - this was how the Rajputs lost against Ghori and his ilk. Rape of women has to be strictly prohibited - and anyone indulging in it from the "non-Muslim" side in war should be summarily executed. Apart from this, the practical side is "elimination" of the theologians, "accidental" collateral erasure of "holy spots" as part of war and then not "identifiable" after cessation of hostilities (you cannot reconstruct something which is in ruins - by the Thaparite principle), an option to convert out of Islam and become civilians for the survivors. The surviving women should be treated with great respect and honour and just as the "prophet" apparently did, show this honour also with "offers" of marriage, bring up the children in "non-violent" humanitarian ways which obviously is not going to be old "barbaric one" - does this seem genocidic?

The Geeta does not want us to shirk from needed actions, but simply that we do not do it out of emotion, and be unaffected by the necessary outcomes. The questions you have raised were raised once before in the Mahabharatam - real or imaginary war - and I think they were conclusively answered before too.

[brihaspati]

while we are still at "peace" - !!! what about the following from the webpage :
http://dikgaj.wordpress.com/2008/09/15/ ... he-future/


How do Indians tackle the task of removing extremely dangerous, deceptive, violently intolerant, and aggressively expansive movements like Islam from their immediate surroundings?

(1) Bring in a complete civil law that is not binding initially on all citizens, but which can be adopted formally by an oath and declaration voluntarily by any adult Indian citizen. This should include a complete marital, family, and inheritance law guided by modern humanitarian principles. At the moment Indians do not have any choice in their religious denomination and they are considered to belong to the religion they are born into or “adopted”. This can be a good way out for those who want to come out of Islam but do not want to face “charges” of apostasy and hence the Hadithic/Sharia injunctions not to really wait for the day of “resurrection” but to carry out immediate retribution for converting out of Islam.

(2) give a very clear warning against Muslim countries that are carrying out forced conversions of Hindus, that Islam stands to lose a much larger chunk if Indians decide to get serious about “persuading” Indian Muslims to convert out of Islam.

(3) ensure that surviving Hindus, Buddhists and Sikhs in Pakistan, or non-Muslims of Indic origin faiths, in Malaysia or Indonesia are protected, either by exchange of populations or establishing direct diplomatic centres.

(4) enforcing all religious institutions to register, and have a separate unit set up, possibly under the Ministry of Culture, that will formally not only audit but have representatives on the board of trustees or management. All religious institutions will have to make transactions through bank accounts, and will not be allowed to receive foreign funding, and accounts will be regularly audited. All citizens will have to be registered in one of the religions recognized or declare themselves to be under the civil law who will not be then considered legally as belonging to any religion. Also legal steps can be taken if someone who has declared in favour of the civil law, continues to participate in activities under a specific religious institution.

(5) religions which prescribe a fixed rate of contribution from their followers, will be guaranteed the required proportion deducted in addition to regular income tax from the source of income of the religion’s followers. This money will then be forwarded to one or more religious institutions of choice as indicated by the donee. Islam prescribes Jakaat and fitra, which should then be deducted from the income of Muslims at source and handed over to Islamic institutions. All religious institutions will have to function within this source of revenue, as transparently audited and supervised by the Government, and no external source of funding will be allowed. Any breaking of this stipulation will lead to criminal proceedings against the religious institution. Those who adopt civil law will not have to pay this “religious contribution”.

(6) educational activity carried out by religious organizations will have to conform to a National Education policy, and have to cover the basic elements including all modern science subjects required in a national syllabus. Material declared objectionable and not in consistency with the Constitution, or the legal system will have to be removed, and if retained will lead to closing down of the educational setup.

(7) Conversions have to be applied for to the government, together with documentary evidence of sanction by a recognized religious body, and subject to a waiting period, during which people or bodies that have objections can raise it with the appellate body. The convertee can be subjected to repeated interviews by independent experts, and have also to agree to audit of personal accounts, sources of income expenditure and wealth, for an unspecified period of time before and after the recognition of conversion. This process will not have to be gone through in case of adopting the civil law.

[Prem]

Chetak,
Do you think IM will accept this offer and not take shelter under the secular laws?
If they do they undercut the very divine decree , theological argument about their religion , complete way of life etc. The choice is same which Islam extend to kaffirs. Let this be the first step before " Means and Way" committe initiate other remedial methods. More Islam need to be givento Faithfuls so they can get taste of their medicine.

[gandharva]

Hindutva men of the drinking kind utter such ideas in the late hours, when they are ashamed about their party's non-performance on the communal front and feel the need to strike a more martial profile. These are indeed drunkards' ideas. Within their scheme of things, the choice is one of simply letting the Muslims take over India as soon as they become numerous enough (which is well before they reach the 50% mark, e.g. Jinnah was offered the government by Gandhi when the Muslims were hardly 24% in undivided India); or implementing one of the said scenarios of demographic competition or ethnic cleansing. I cannot blame anti-Hindu authors for highlighting such ideas as all too similar to certain forms of xenophobia and racism elsewhere.

Thoughtful Hindus, by contrast, have no such problem. They don't rely on numbers but on consciousness, the secret weapon which will blow Islam away. Let the Indian Muslims "breed like rats": it is thanks to them that India will overtake China as the most populous country in the world (a doubtful honour in this age, but these millions may be needed one day). All that is needed to avert the catastrophe of a Muslim take-over, is that these numerous children of Muslim parents are properly educated.

It is a well-known fact that most South-Asian Muslims are the descendents of converts from Hinduism. As for the Turkish, Persian or Arabic components of the Muslim community, they too are the descendents of converts, be it from Buddhism or Zoroastrianism or some other Kafir religion. There is nothing intrinsically Muslim even about Arabs, who were the first victims of Islam. Islamic scripture itself is quite unambiguous about the terror which Mohammed and his companions used to pressurize the Arabs into joining them; and about the national Arab revolt against Islam after Mohammed's death, a war of liberation which they only lost because they did not resort to the same ruthless style of warfare which Mohammed had introduced. The people known as Muslims have walked into Islam, and they are bound to walk out again as well. Powerful as the conditioning of Islamic indoctrination may be, it remains a superficial imposition susceptible to the law of impermanence. That is why any solution which starts by assuming the Muslimness of the Muslims, is mistaken.

http://www.bharatvani.org/books/bjp/section19.html

just another look at the islam problem.