Indian Response to Terrorism

mohanty · Post by **mohanty** » 28 Nov 2008 08:29

This is still a rant thread I hope...

MMS and his bunch should resign if they have any dignity left. Everytime he vowed for a suitable response in that speech, it seemed a meek precedented lie. What a state of affairs. Whole govt seems to be running only on hope of heavenly intervention.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 28 Nov 2008 08:30

The Indian governments current and past have not show such an enterprise or vision. Pakistan will be ready to get into an all-out war, betting with Unkil and China to intervene before it breaks down in the war. I hope Pakistan will break up soon. Ramana said 2009 is going to be an important year for TSP.

In the absence of any action, your suggestions are heart warming though. But I still can not get into my head that Pakis will sit tight when we take down their infrastructure or Paki Army HQ personal assets.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 28 Nov 2008 08:31

N^3,

Total war is not an option that MMS is willing to accept. The sooner we realize that, the less heartburn. We should be satisfied if MMS has the courage to recall the Indian ambassador to TSP and issue some sort of demarche.
All of us know full well that for international Islamic terrorism to stop, the TSP military has to be destroyed and dismembered, but there is no courage in the Indian political leadership, regardless of political party, that is willing to do that.

The time for going to full out war ended after the attack on the Indian Parliament in 2001.

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 28 Nov 2008 08:39

Sufficient debt has been accumulated towards Pakistan that we must be very close to accomplishing the dismemberment of Pakistan. We choose, instead to play footsie all over again.

I dunno, its either them or us and no other solution is apparent to me here...but I'm willing to learn of other possibilities.

S

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 28 Nov 2008 08:41

Narayanan wrote:The entire war must be aimed at breaking up TSP - IOW, allow the Baluchistan Freedom Movement, the Free Balwaristan Movement, and the Pakhtoonistan movement to flourish, because the Pak Army cannot reach them.

Conspiracy theory on:
May be this incident is perpetrated by interested parties to set the "Blood borders" a.ka. "Broader middle east project" (Ralph Peters) in motion. It gives perfect justification for India to invade TSP, while US, Israel and UK squeezing it from Afganistan side.

Conspiracy theory off:

I know I am tired and I am day dreaming...Sorry. Hope is a very bad thing.

Vikas · Post by **Vikas** » 28 Nov 2008 08:47

As usual we will fill up 30-40 pages with what GOI should do and how impotent GOI is and how Chanikyan GOI is by letting Pakis do whatever they are doing.
Once done we will go back to our good old days waiting for next event to happen. We talk about putting pressure on Central govt but honestly, do the leaders who claim to sit in the Parliament
have the basic skill to comprehend what we are against? Who are we going to pressurize?
The PM who is convinced the Pakistan is as much a victim of terrorism as India or LKA who thinks Kaid-e-Daah was as great a secular leader
as anyone else.
The OxfordianPM at his best can mumble few words on national defense which only he would understand, less said about the HM.
We have become a nation whose attitude after every slap is "Agli baar maara to dekhna..."

Sometimes I feel that we really have become covering shivering Yindoo hiding in the dark corner behind some Fake Gandhian principal afraid to stand up and be counted.
I am sure in few days someone will bring up the angle of MNS and Raj Thackrey to say that Mumbai deserved it and then we all will be
free of the guilt of not doing anything when bombs go off and Indian citizens are killed like dogs.
In the end nothing will happen..Nothing!!!

Added Later: And Yes I am as much a part of the problem as anyone else.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 28 Nov 2008 08:53

CRamS wrote:I am f%^&*$ing sick of this mantra that this was done to 'poison relations between India and TSP'. This sophistry is peddled with impunity and nobody challenges this with the fact this was carried precisely by the state apparatus of TSP, the army and ISI.

This ch****yapanti needs to be stopped forthwith.

No more cricket

No more trains

No more pretending that they will be nice if we are good. This is pathetic idiocy.

Indian Muslims will have to bite the bullet and support this - especially those who use these idiotic exchanges.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 28 Nov 2008 08:55

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122783260486063039.html

The death toll from terrorism -- not counting at least 119 killed in Mumbai on Wednesday and Thursday -- stands at over 4,000, which gives India the dubious distinction of suffering more casualties since 2004 than any country except Iraq.

The litany of errors is long. Unlike their counterparts in the West, or in East Asia, India's perpetually squabbling leaders have failed to put national security above partisan politics. The country's antiterrorism effort is reactive and episodic rather than proactive and sustained. Its public discourse on Islam oscillates between crude, anti-Muslim bigotry and mindless sympathy for largely unjustified Muslim grievance-mongering. Its failure to either charm or cow its Islamist-friendly neighbors -- Pakistan and Bangladesh -- reveals a limited grasp of statecraft.

Even Indonesia -- a still-poor Muslim-majority nation where sympathy for militants runs deeper than it does in India -- has done an infinitely better job of recognizing that the protection of citizens' lives is any government's first responsibility. A superbly trained, federal antiterrorism force called Detachment 88 has ensured that country has not suffered a terrorist attack in more than three years.

By contrast, India's leaders -- who invariably swan around with armed guards paid for by the taxpayer -- can't even agree on a legal framework to keep the country safe. On taking office in 2004, one of the first acts of the ruling Congress Party was to scrap a federal antiterrorism law that strengthened witness protection and enhanced police powers.

The Congress Party has stalled similar state-level legislation in Gujarat, which is ruled by the opposition Hindu-nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party.

The BJP hasn't exactly distinguished itself either. In 1999, the hijacking of an Indian aircraft to then Taliban-ruled Afghanistan led a BJP government to release three hardened militants, including Omar Sheikh Saeed, the former London School of Economics student who would go on to murder Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl.

In sum, the Indian approach to terrorism has been consistently haphazard and weak-kneed. When faced with fundamentalist demands, India's democratically elected leaders have regularly preferred caving to confrontation on a point of principle. The country's institutions and culture have abetted a widespread sense of Muslim separateness from the national mainstream. The country's diplomats and soldiers have failed to stabilize the neighborhood. The ongoing drama in Mumbai underscores the price both Indians and non-Indians caught unawares must now pay.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 28 Nov 2008 09:06

Modi wants 3-layer ring to secure coast

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Citi ... 766781.cms

28 Nov 2008, 0112 hrs IST, TNN
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
GANDHINAGAR : Members of a high-level meeting on Thursday, which was taken by Chief Minister Narendra Modi at his residence on the terror attack in Mumbai, decided to act fast on plugging existing gaps in security along the 1,600-km-long coastline. In the meeting, it was decided to act swiftly to implement a three-layer ring to make the coast secure. Of this, if Indian naval forces operating in the international sea off 12 nautical miles from the coast were to guard the outer ring, the coastal guards and the state coastal police could take care of two other rings to protect the region. Minister of state for home Amit Shah followed it up with a similar meeting in Sachivalaya later with his officials.

Soon after the meetings, attended among others by minister Shah, principal secretary (home) Balwant Singh and DGP PC Pandey, Modi wrote a letter to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh asking him to urgently call a meeting to work out a strategy to guard coastal security. The meeting, he said, should be attended by senior representatives of Central government and state governments which are within reach of mischievous elements in Pakistan, Indian naval forces and coastal guards. "There is a need for political willingness to fight terror," Modi told Manmohan.

edited.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 28 Nov 2008 09:15

He calls the Leopold cafe shadowy.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/shadow ... 36629.html

THE Leopold Cafe, in the Colaba district of Mumbai, where much of the violence has occurred, is a legendary venue for Westerners, making it an obvious target for terrorists in pursuit of British and American travellers.

Frommer's online travel site says: "It's not uncommon to walk into this Colaba institution and not see a single Indian face around. Why it's such a hit with foreigners is a mystery, since the food is good but not exceptional, and the atmosphere can be noisy and rather smoky.

"All the same, it is consistent, and because it's one of those popular places where tourists like to share stories with other tourists over a beer, it deserves mention."

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 28 Nov 2008 09:16

Nayak wrote:This man is filled with awesome-ness. Look at his response-plan. Hey unmanly-mohan singh, you piece of use-less crap, a d!ckless excuse of a Sardaar, do something about it.

I saw the interview of this pathetic-living-example of stupidity. Mofo was shivering on the camera and mouthing platitudes of being resilient. I say '**** you' man. 200 + innocent victims are murdered and it's on your dirty hands and conscience.

This guy is fcuking disgrace to proud legacy of Sikhs. We have a impotent chootiya on top who wants to hug the terrorists.

I understand that you are agitated. What do you want MMS to do now? Wear a helmet and repell from the helicopter with a gun in his hand...

He has to wait for the operations to get over, establish the root cause (for which he depends on the intelligence agencies) and then take appropriate action. He cannot act with haste now. Believe me, I am itching for response as well and I 100% support disproportionate response to end this once and far all.

But I do not support this disrespect towards the prime minister of India.

madhum · Post by **madhum** » 28 Nov 2008 09:20

rgsrini wrote:
Nayak wrote:This man is filled with awesome-ness. Look at his response-plan. Hey unmanly-mohan singh, you piece of use-less crap, a d!ckless excuse of a Sardaar, do something about it.

I saw the interview of this pathetic-living-example of stupidity. Mofo was shivering on the camera and mouthing platitudes of being resilient. I say '**** you' man. 200 + innocent victims are murdered and it's on your dirty hands and conscience.

This guy is fcuking disgrace to proud legacy of Sikhs. We have a impotent chootiya on top who wants to hug the terrorists.

I understand that you are agitated. What do you want MMS to do now? Wear a helmet and repell from the helicopter with a gun in his hand...

He has to wait for the operations to get over, establish the root cause (for which he depends on the intelligence agencies) and then take appropriate action. He cannot act with haste now. Believe me, I am itching for response as well and I 100% support disproportionate response to end this once and far all.

But I do not support this disrespect towards the prime minister of India.

Rant on:
(what did you sa mo fo, fcuking disgrace, impotent chootiya. and "unmanly" which is wrong on so many levels, as if something is wrong in being a woman and/or woman do not have courage. I still remember your comment that "all women are attention seeking whores" in the Nukkad thread several moons ago and sir, I have no respect for you.)
Rant off:

If you still think this guy is capable of taking action, you are living in a fools paradise mate.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 28 Nov 2008 09:20

edited

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 28 Nov 2008 09:23

rgsrini wrote: He has to wait for the operations to get over, establish the root cause (for which he depends on the intelligence agencies) and then take appropriate action. He cannot act with haste now. Believe me, I am itching for response as well and I 100% support disproportionate response to end this once and far all.

But I do not support this disrespect towards the prime minister of India.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 28 Nov 2008 09:26

Out of two worst PMs we have/had one is in office and the otherone died today.

sum · Post by **sum** » 28 Nov 2008 09:27

The visuals showing large crowds of junta cheering,clapping and shouting patriotic slogans when the commandos came into the scene or were returning after completing their ops brought massive goosebumps and tears to my eyes…

People were running upto the commandos moving in a single file just to pat their backs and shake their hands….Was very touching and shows the faith the aam aadmi has in our armed forces since they are they are the only ones left to protect us from the scum since the netas have been written off as worthless parasites and nothing can be expected from them!!!

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 28 Nov 2008 09:27

I have no intention of jumping into the gutter with you and I never expected you to care a hoot about others or their opinions as you had very well demonstrated for quite sometime.

But I will voice my opinion when someone, however despicable that person may be, insults an Indian institution, which is the prime minister of India. Even if the person occupying it may not be worthy of that institution.

madhum · Post by **madhum** » 28 Nov 2008 09:28

Look at this %%$$% statement. Posted this in other thread and got deleted.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/terro ... il/391406/

"Before I could reach there, the terrorists who had attacked one of the hospitals, the Cama Hospital, had left and those who attacked the railway station had also left," Union Home Minister Shivraj Patil said.

He should have gone to Taj or Nariman house to meet them.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 28 Nov 2008 09:29

sum wrote:The visuals showing large crowds of junta cheering,clapping and shouting patriotic slogans when the commandos came into the scene or were returning after completing their ops brought massive goosebumps and tears to my eyes…

People were running upto the commandos moving in a single file just to pat their backs and shake their hands….Was very touching and shows the faith the aam aadmi has in our armed forces since they are they are the only ones left to protect us from the scum since the netas have been written off as worthless parasites and nothing can be expected from them!!!

They are the last pillar of hope for this desperate nation. Expect the media in the coming days doing their darnest best to discredit and demoralize the forces by running hit-pieces on the brave men, and speculating their bravery and second-guessing the operations.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 28 Nov 2008 09:31

Immediate list of things

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 28 Nov 2008 09:32

deleted

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 28 Nov 2008 09:33

rgsrini wrote:I have no intention of jumping into the gutter with you and I never expected you to care a hoot about others or their opinions as you had very well demonstrated for quite sometime.

But I will voice my opinion when someone, however despicable that person may be, insults an Indian institution, which is the prime minister of India. Even if the person occupying it may not be worthy of that institution.

Your protests are duly noted and printed on the environment-friendly-toilet-paper, soon when I get the urge to empty my bowels I will use them to good effect. If you feel they need to be recycled I will be glad to courier them to your residence.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 28 Nov 2008 09:35

Note from Iran.

http://www.mideastyouth.com/2008/11/27/ ... you-india/

Our hearts mourn with India; we owe the land with as many Hindi movies we have watched, with as many moves from its exotic dances we have learnt as a child, India! Be away from chaos, you are worth millions of worlds. May G-d obliterate the enemies of people, the enemies of peace, the enemies of life and humanity. May G-d comfort the families of the precious people who lost their lives in the attacks, May G-d help the ones who are now in the evil hands of the terrorists, oh they may create the unrest, but they can never change the heavenly image of India. Jai Hindustan.

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 28 Nov 2008 09:36

Nayak,
Let yours be the last word as I don't have any intention of spoiling this thread.
BTW...congrats. You have made it to my ignore list.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 28 Nov 2008 09:47

Guys , i need moderate enlightenment. Why cannnot Hoorirats and others like them be liquidated as they are the root cause of terrorism .
Best thing Goi can do now is to brinng them to Bombay and let locals sort them out with decent argument. This is aperfect oppertunity to punish these foreign assets in the country yet not expoloited right away . USa wont sapre OBL why are we sparing valley rats running here and there.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 28 Nov 2008 09:48

Guru-jano,

It has started.

Please see this article on TIME-rag, disgusting and makes any decent reader want to puke.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... html?imw=Y

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 28 Nov 2008 09:53

rgsrini wrote:But I will voice my opinion when someone, however despicable that person may be, insults an Indian institution, which is the prime minister of India. Even if the person occupying it may not be worthy of that institution.

I do not understand this sweating about the institution. It is already made as puppet's institiution by the Congress president who is of European origin(a la Delilah)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delilah

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 28 Nov 2008 10:10

Muppalla,
Because it is not easy to build such institurions and we can ask some of our neighbours and probably the whole of middle east to understand its value. Because these institutions are what distinguishes us from the pigs next door. However, it is easier to undermine it, disrespect it and destroy it. We will only be playing straight into the hands of our enemies.

If our institutions are undermined by external forces (like you suggest) then we should fight to strengthen it. (I do believe there is a strong force that prevented Sonia from directly occupying the chair which indicates that people realize the danger and are fighting for these institutions) If we are impotent to fight for it, atleast we can stop sowing the seeds of disrepect and hatred towards it.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 28 Nov 2008 10:27

I rather show my respect to officers and commandos than some stupid throne and institution.
It is like not protesting king's atrocities due to respect to the throne.

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 28 Nov 2008 10:32

Protest all you want. We all have the right to do it. Force him to take action, which is what I believe will happen now. But what happened above is no protest.

Also, the respect is not mutually exclusive. Respecting the prime minister(ship) doesn't mean that you have to disrespect the officers and the commandos.

I guess all of us have a little bit of DDM within us.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 28 Nov 2008 10:33

X-posting from the terror attacks thread.

amit wrote:I have a feeling the Kiyani and the Paki Army is dying to have another Parakram type situation. The Kabul Embassy bombing was done without bothering to hide the ISI imprint. And this time the terrorists came via the sea route and started taking hostages and doing a shootout. Surely the planners anticipated that a few could be/would be caught alive and direct complicity of the Pukes will be there for everyone to see?

What could all the that mean? I reckon there's two possibilities and neither are good for India:

a) Kiyani wants a Parakram II knowing fully well that the Americans, with their exposure in Afghanistan will never allow a hot war to ensure. Yet Kiyani gets an excuse to pull out of FATA and concentrate his troops where they feel most comfortable that is the eastern border. Going by Parakram, even if there's no shooting war, the standoff would go on for at least six months or so, sufficient time for the Taleban to recoupe.

b) The second point could be what Samit Ganguly has mentioned. The Indian leadership has built up such an effeminate of itself and the country that Kiyani doesn't care what the Indian reaction would be, confident of being able to handle the consequences.

Any comments anyone?

It is the second because Indira Gandhi showed in 1971 that the Americans cannot stop India if it gets going. IMO the ongoing political transition from the Congress to the BJP has reduced the space for the Congress to investigate terrorism effectively for fear of offending the Muslim votebank. Sooner the transition is completed (or reversed), the sooner we will see an effective approach to terror.

R_Kumar · Post by **R_Kumar** » 28 Nov 2008 10:36

rgsrini wrote: But I do not support this disrespect towards the prime minister of India.

We are not Bhism Pitamah that we are bound to protect person sitting on the chair. We are committed to protect mother India thats all.
If an idiot is sitting on the chair we will call him/her idiot. Please preach this somewhere else.

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 28 Nov 2008 10:43

R_Kumar,
Where is my post saying anything about not protecting mother India (DDMitis again). I am not preaching anything here to convert anyone. I am voicing my opinion, just like you are doing yours.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 28 Nov 2008 10:53

What expectations do you have from the PM when all this is over?

There are no feelers of anything happening as far as the political establishment is concerned. Atleast, I and a lot of others on this forum believe that. If you have faith in MMS good for you and I will be the first one to congratulate you if there is some substantial reaction rather than giving lame statements on TV

Added later: MMS might have been good for the economy, but when it comes to National Security no way he should be the PM
and if he has any decency he should resign along with that joker Shivraj Patil.

rgsrini wrote: But I do not support this disrespect towards the prime minister of India.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 28 Nov 2008 10:57

Cross posting from Military Scenarios thread

vivek_ahuja wrote: The difference between In-Area special operations (IASO) and Out-of-Area Special Operations (OASO) work. In the former, the identity of the teams as such is known to both sides and neither side denies it. In the latter case, there is a chance of avoiding declaring the presence of one's teams by using local weapons, clothing and tactics. In essence, instead of trying to ask as to what will make the Chinese suspect Indian involvement, you have to ask this question: What will not make them suspect? There is a subtle difference between the two, and that difference is what separates the IASO from OASO. With respect to India and her immediate neighbors, it is always going to be IASO.

Also, if it came down to the killing of one of the teams etc, the way the team fought, their tactics, fire-discipline etc will declare their identity to an acute PLA observer much before any he encounters physical evidence.

Just one of the dangers of a very dangerous job.

Replace China with India and India with Pakisatan in above post. These terrorists were carrying Paki MP5 guns, spoke in a distinctive Paki accent/dialect.

R_Kumar · Post by **R_Kumar** » 28 Nov 2008 11:09

rgsrini wrote:R_Kumar,
Where is my post saying anything about not protecting mother India (DDMitis again). I am not preaching anything here to convert anyone. I am voicing my opinion, just like you are doing yours.

If the person sitting on the chair destroying my county, then a person who is supporting this person is not protecting my country. Of course its my opinion.

rgsrini · Post by **rgsrini** » 28 Nov 2008 11:09

anishns,

I have posted (earlier) my expectation of "disproportionate response" to weaken or eliminate the root cause of this terrorism.

I am itching for response as well and I 100% support disproportionate response to end this once and far all.

Am I confident that MMS will do it? I am not certain based on his response to the past incidents.

But I do believe that the magnitude of this attrocity and the public sentiment will force the government to take action. Besides, I also notice that the politicians are joining forces based on LKA's statements and offer of visiting Mumbai together with the PM.

I would give the government some time to complete the operations first, investigate and analyze the clues and then react, instead of expecting them to run to the border with missiles on top of their heads right away.

R_kumar,
Ok.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 28 Nov 2008 11:18

For $hits and giggles yo !!

Regarding the events in India: The only question we should be asking ourselves, by Arundhati Roy

http://www.pej.org/html/modules.php?op= ... =0&thold=0

“I think, the thing that I’m thinking the most about, the question that occupies me a lot these days is, what kind, what form of resistance is effective, and acceptable to us?

“Because, I see all over and all around us, that obviously resistance, whether it’s in Palestine, or Iraq, or Kashmir, or in the north eastern states of India, or now all over India, there is a kind of armed struggle rising up, being put down viciously by the State, and at the same time non-violent resistance movements are given a lot of air time, a lot of publicity, a lot of space, but it’s also because it makes the State comfortable, it makes the comfortable comfortable.

“So between non-violent resistance and armed struggle, where do we go? What is effective? What is the right thing to do, or do we need a bio-diversity of resistance? Do we need all kinds of resistance? And do we need to stop this search for being pristine? Do we need to be able to accept that whatever form we choose and all the various ways, in which we, decide to resist will not be pure, and we accept that impurity with some kind of generosity?

“So really the strategies of resistance and what they ought to be is what occupies my time a lot these days.”

Suzanna Arundhati Roy

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 28 Nov 2008 11:19

rsgrini, I don't expect "them to run to the border with missiles on top of their heads right away."
and neither should be do that! There has to be a certain degree of covertness involved in that....

All I am saying is that a leader carries the expectation of the population on his shoulders, especially in a democratic country like India with a population of over a billion.

Does his statement coming in more than 20 hours after the incident inspire any confidence in us fellow citizens???
Thankfully, the NSG, Marcos, Army & Police didn't have any time to listen to his obscure comments IMO opinion they would have been completely demoralized.

rgsrini wrote:anishns,
I have posted (earlier) my expectation of "disproportionate response" to weaken or eliminate the root cause of this terrorism. Am I confident that MMS will do it? I am not certain based on his response to the past incidents.

But I do believe that the magnitude of this attrocity and the public sentiment will force the government to take action. Besides, I also notice that the politicians are joining forces based on LKA's statements and offer of visiting Mumbai together with the PM.

I would give the government some time to complete the operations first, investigate and analyze the clues and then react, instead of expecting them to run to the border with missiles on top of their heads right away.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 28 Nov 2008 11:23

Massive gunfire from the last pig at the Taj.