Indian Response to Terrorism

[ldev]

Fantastic!!! Ad hominem attacks continue.....

Hey one line wonder, answer the question !!!!!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122783260486063039.html

The death toll from terrorism -- not counting at least 119 killed in Mumbai on Wednesday and Thursday -- stands at over 4,000, which gives India the dubious distinction of suffering more casualties since 2004 than any country except Iraq.

In sum, the Indian approach to terrorism has been consistently haphazard and weak-kneed. When faced with fundamentalist demands, India's democratically elected leaders have regularly preferred caving to confrontation on a point of principle. The country's institutions and culture have abetted a widespread sense of Muslim separateness from the national mainstream. The country's diplomats and soldiers have failed to stabilize the neighborhood. The ongoing drama in Mumbai underscores the price both Indians and non-Indians caught unawares must now pay.

Statistics can always be used selectively. Lets see:

October 31st, 2008 at 8:05 am


Eleven deadly bomb blasts ripped through India’s northeastern state of Assam Thursday, killing about 50 people and leaving more than 300 injured. The serial blasts took place before noon, within a span of 50 minutes......

....Thursday’s serial bombings were the third bomb blast incident in Assam this year. Powerful explosions in March and June had rocked the state. More than 10,000 people have died in the northeastern region in the past decade.

LINK

Interesting, this means that if 4000 died from 2004 till now, at least 6000 died in Assam alone in the previous 6 years when the *strong nationalist* government was in power. Would India then have been ahead of Iraq or any other country in the casualty sweepstakes during that period of time?

This above is the result of a simple google search I did.... who knows what else one will find if you search hard enough. I am sure that although it is posted by a poster on the board which is linked, if you search hard enough one will find the original news link.

But one would at least expect rakshaks to also know that there are motivated people out there who are keen to highlight instability in India and hence headline grabbing news items such as the WSJ article posted. But then the need to score partisan political points outweighs objectivity doesnt it?

[harik]

Philip,

Initially,the sheer scale and lethality of the strikes were not immediately avaialable,but,given the sensitivity of the entire area of the Taj with the country's most important naval dockyard next door,with even the Yacht Club's former buildings across the road on the waterfront,now being used by the AEC,a masterplan to protect the entire area should've been in place.

Mumbai Police human intelligence is quite good regarding road ingress into Mumbai......

Whenever you have time give your perspective abt changes in Mumbai police forces in last 2-3 years if you can.

[Raja]

Food (Dry Fruits) were recovered from the rucksacks of the terrorists - which means they were 'not expecting' to die but come out live victorious.

Huh? How did you come up with that analysis? Just because they brought food with them means no such thing. It just means that they wanted to maximize the damage they can do and not be affected by lack of food. Maybe they were expecting to draw it on even longer than it will in the end. However, you cannot say that they were "expecting to not die and come out live victorious."

[brihaspati]

Shah Mahmood Qureshi orders Indians to be calm and be patient, and give the democratically elected Pakistani governmemt time. He wants us to be neighbours for a long time. We should hear this calmly and not reply, for we have to see to it that we are not neighbours but that they become part of us on our terms. As long as the Quran and the Hadiths are going to be taught anywhere in the subcontinent, and they will be as long as the Pakistanis remain just neighbours violence will continue for these basic core texts of Islam are the basis of violent sadistic Jihad on non-Muslims - and while Salman Rushdie has been banned these essential terrorist spawning texts have been and will be allowed to flourish in India.

Same old harangue from NDTV - Prannoy Roy - speaking on behalf of all Indians to warn not be gullible to "politicizing" the issue - it is all about politics Mr. Roy (why is it that so many Bengalis appear on the Islamophile side! - the Swiss hostage syndrome perhaps of being beaten to a pulp by the Muslims during the Partition! no just teasing and taking potshots at ourselves - its difficult to suppress anger you know and I joke when I am raging inside ).

One thing I missed in my list of actions - taking a cue from the South African commandos on vacation, "Hindus" have to organize to get self-defence and hostage crisis management training. This cannot be organized by the government as they cannot legally discriminate between Non-Muslims and Muslims - but then there would be the possibility of sections of the Muslim community using this training later on to devise more effective terror strikes. A parallel citizens' self-defence network involving complete internal surveillance mechanisms and terror tackling training is necessary - keep Muslims out of this, protect those among the Muslims who help or collaborate with information and logistics but they have to be made to understand politely but firmly that the risk cannot be taken.

Remember that apart from the army or specialized forces all other apparatus including the political and the civilian as well as internal security could be compromised - and not to be entirely relied upon.

[Rahul M]

All the armchair rakshaks who were making snide remarks about the ATS deploying 90% of its forces in Malegaon etc. etc. would have known instantly the minute news of Karkare's or Kamte's or Saluskar's death flashed on the screen that this was no ordinary homegrown attack and something very serious was afoot. At that point of time, it would have been the decent thing to do to reign in themselves and their proteges. But ignorance and lack of decency knows no bounds and the ignorant politically motivagted prattling continued for page after page after page.

oh, cut out the insinuations and false allegations.

the outrage was directed entirely at the tasking of the ATS by the Govt which is certainly allowed and in no way indecent. We have NO standing rules to show our allegiance to the govt of the day ! this is NOT the PRC !

there was some frustration at why the ATS was playing ball in the political witch-hunt but NEVER after the mumbai incidents started.
ALL posts on those lines that came to admin notice HAVE been edited out. I should know, I've deleted half a dozen such posts.

if you think that the malegaon incident deserves 90% of ATS efforts then what can I say, 'many happy returns of 26th nov'.
so much for this 'unbiased' business !

If you care, just pick out Nayak's posts..... out of 10 posts, I dont know but the majority speak of bangles and such like... this is a thread about the horrific events in Mumbai and such posters feel actively encouraged to post such crap not once or twice but on page after page....its a combination of these things which is shameful....

I thought we were talking about mumbai ATS.
nice switching tactics BTW.

ldev, don't you think YOU are being swayed by your personal prejudices ? which moderator was 'taunting the genuine rakshaks who were probably dying at that moment at the hands of the terrorists' ?

What do you know about my personal prejudices?

only that it makes you capable of reading much more into posts than that is actually written in them.
for example, you note "this is a thread about the horrific events in Mumbai and such posters feel actively encouraged to post such crap not once or twice but on page after page" but fail to notice the MANY edits that have been done to stop whinings and namecallings.
a supreme example of selective reading at display, congrats !

I understand you would rather have patriotic Indians stopped from discussing the events rather than have the govt criticized but that is NOT a priority for us.

you see, we don't carry the baggage of having to support a govt even if it is non-performing.
Therefore, criticism of the current GoI may attract your 'righteous' anger, but that's not our headache. We are concerned about the Indian on the street, not some 2-bit politician.

@ chetak, A Roy's father is bengali.

[Abheshek]

I think our general tenor here is getting more emotional and sarcastic. Let us look at the situation practically:

What is :

(1) In the short term, the operations will end successfully, with most terrosrists caught or killed. GOI will make strong statements against Pakistan, demand some concrete response - but will stop short of making any actual out of border military intervention. There will be heavy pressure from the US not to do this in a transitional period for the US administration, and it also comes at an inconvenient time point in their strategic line for consolidating their presence in Afghanistan - this would be good later when they have retreated a bit from Iraq and are able to concentrate their forces on the North east corner of Afghanistan (only after cleaning southern Afghan support base of the Taleban/Al qaeda) a- and only then will they go for a coordianted op with India to encircle the northern Pakistan tribal area now taken over by the Taleban and underhand supporters from the Pakistan state security and military apparatus. At this moment this will simply divide the Pakistani army into two with one side using the opportunity to move up with the Taleban and possibly declare a new government of Pakistan while the remaining part moves to the Indian border and south or maybe the entire military declares in favour of Taleban and then its a big big wide front for all concerned militarily.

(2) Congress will survive the next general elections if they are at all held. There are sufficient support bases, which will consolidate around the Congress as the last means of survival in India - including the Islamic leadership represented by the Tabliqi Jamaat and the Deobandis, the communists of all shapes and shades of red, and even the EJ's. This still does represnt a significant if not dominant electoral swing factor, especially as long as the "Hindu" vote remains divided. We can see that even some of the BRfites, who are predominantly free of leftist or centrist weaknesses still sometimes cannot get over their mistrust of the "Right".

(3) The BJP is in a dilemma - on the one hand it wants to pose as a "mature" "responsible" and therefore "restrained" manner and not jump into urging military intervention, on the other hand it loses "Hindu" votes if it fails to live up to a more hardline expectation. It will also not want the UPA and other Centre-Left forces like Mayavati or Mulayam to exploit "returning upper caste repression" card to mobilize portions of the "Hindu".

(4) it is unlikely that this is the last of terror attacks of this scale. This could be part of a much longer term plan of military aggression, and simply a diversion. At even this moment the next module might be planning and coordinating with their local Muslim support bases to build up to the next outrage. I would conservatively estimate that plans for the next one year has already been chalked out by the terrorist leadership. And many of the countries that have traditionally had supported Islamic countries and radical Islamic movements in these countries for various reasons including the secret/black operations wings of the West and China are most probably aware of these planned moves.

(5) The huge naval border and the difficult mountainous terrain in the land border makes it almost impossible to make the border impenetrable. Infiltrations will continue, and with possibly the next groups already inside. A new security law is not really effective and a security law is not the point. What would really be needed is power and capability to have intensive surveillance of all humans within the borders a task physically infeasible and politically suicidal for any regime as long as it has work within "democracy".

(6) the political regime as well as state apparatus fro security and intelligence probably infiltrated by double agents who can divert attention to false trails and also blind the agencies.

Positive outcomes : Greater psychological proximity and identification between the professional military and the common people of India - a crucial factor that bypasses power elite and their manipulations to retain state power and extremely impottant for future consolidation of the nation.

Negative outcomes: lack of international economic confidence for some time, use of this shift of attention to one spot helping other programmes of terror plan such as infiltration etc., all across the country,

What can be done short term:

(1) independent citizen's network for vigilance and surveillance. This information to be closely guarded and not shared with local level state security apparatus, although some degree of coordination with a central national level state organ should not be ruled out in the interim. At all times, keep the possibility in mind that the information you share at any level of the government could actually leak out to undesirable sources. This can be planned of course in a way such that these moles and their networks within the state apparatus can actuially be found out by subtle manipulation of the information shared. I cannot elaborate more for obvious reasons.

(2) instead of full scale military operations right now, there can be deep penetration strike operatives to carry out liquidation activities outside our borders.

(3) form a civilian platform of the "Hindus" and any non-Muslims willing and reliable enough to join in, that will take up the key goals of a presidential form of governmemt with a non-partisan president elected by direct vote to gain independence from minority/factional manipulation, an uniform civil code not recognizing Islamic law, compulsory national education, and state supervision of all religious bodies. The platform for the short term practical viewpoint should not do anything that divides the non-Muslim vote - given the timeframe for the next general elections, but if the "existing Hindu" forces fails to implement this programme will have to think of converting itself into a more regular political entity.

(4) begin civil and economic non-cooperation with any entity, from the media to academics to political groups - that give even a hint of protecting or favouring any continuing role of Islam for the future on the subcontinent. Hindu religious leaders should be called upon to do their bit to rise above and remove divisive practices of castes or others things that are being taken advantage of by the enemy. This to be started immediatley and in such a way that it has public visibility and credibility.

long term goal:

Unify the subcontinent into one single political entity with no presence or recognition of Islam, and whatever it takes to do this - do this unemotionally, and without getting affected by the obvious pains assocuated with consequences.

I agree, but this will never happen. We both know how Indian politics goes.

Perhaps we BRs could form a Nationalist Party? That's food for thought.

[Rahul M]

ldev, I agree that some stupid posts might have passed under admin radar.
In a time like this when 50 odd people are posting at the same time and and threads are progressing at 5 pages/hr or more, is that too surprising ?
But if that implies 'admin support' for their 'proteges', it also implies that MMS govt is 'supporting' their terrorist 'proteges' in mumbai and elsewhere, right ?
with the series of posts in this thread I'm really disillusioned with your judgement. perhaps it is just the stress of the situation showing on us.
I just hope you don't come up with a smart one-liner as an answer.

In a time like this it is disheartening and frustrating to see a senior BRFite come up with 'admin bias' and assorted accusations instead of advising the said posters against it.

[RajeshA]

Guys all those, who are in impotent rage, I have a very serious suggestion:

Go to the Gym and do a work out.

I tell you 50% of the reason, why politicians don't have the balls to start, or should I say respond to, a WAR is not because they have no backbone, but rather they have totally underdeveloped back muscles, no trapezia, no latissimi dorsi. They need to put on some muscle there. They should also use some food supplements like Whey or Soya protein.

Of course getting rid of all this gray eminence we have in politics will also help. In US one can always see the Presidents (e.g. Clinton, Dubya, etc) going out for jog with their security men, etc. After winning the elections Obama went to the Gym. Putin is a judo black belt. All this adrenaline and testosterone is good, reeeeealy good. It gives the leaders their appetite for a fight.

Let a sound and healthy body be your contribution to Indian strength, and vote only for those politicians who go to the gym regularly.

[Abheshek]

Guys all those, who are in impotent rage, I have a very serious suggestion:

Go to the Gym and do a work out.

I tell you 50% of the reason, why politicians don't have the balls to start, or should I say respond to, a WAR is not because they have no backbone, but rather they have totally underdeveloped back muscles, no trapezia, no latissimi dorsi. They need to put on some muscle there. They should also use some food supplements like Whey or Soya protein.

Of course getting rid of all this gray eminence we have in politics will also help. In US one can always see the Presidents (e.g. Clinton, Dubya, etc) going out for jog with their security men, etc. After winning the elections Obama went to the Gym. Putin is a judo black belt. All this adrenaline and testosterone is good, reeeeealy good. It gives the leaders their appetite for a fight.

Let a sound and healthy body be your contribution to Indian strength.

Rahul, I think it's only natural that people are venting their anger here. What's wrong with that? Unless people are abusing each other, which I see is not the case, it should be fine, IMO.

Ofcourse, I'm new to BR (not exactly though, used to be a regular some years back), so I might be missing a few things here.

[NRao]

Mumbai Police human intelligence is quite good regarding road ingress into Mumbai......

It might be, and, the Mumbai police could be the best in world too, but, there is a very dire need for fused data - something that the US is just getting people from various agencies together to implement.

Having worked in the field, the US is a few years away, but will get there.

[RamaY]

No point in expecting the current GOI to do anything constructive at this point.

It is amply clear that the recent charade on Malegaon is a preamble to this terror attack. Media and political background is prepared so the public and duniya are prepped up for a Hindu Terror == Islamic Terror equation.

There is only one way out. Send all these anti-national political parties out of Parliament. The new revolution must be initiated by all patriotic Indians and it starts with electing non-corrupt and patriotic leaders to lead this nation out of this chaos.

[GuruNandan]

I hear the line "Terrorists have no religion" time
and again. Makes me think if will anything change

[chetak]

Guys all those, who are in impotent rage, I have a very serious suggestion:

Go to the Gym and do a work out.

I tell you 50% of the reason, why politicians don't have the balls to start, or should I say respond to, a WAR is not because they have no backbone, but rather they have totally underdeveloped back muscles, no trapezia, no latissimi dorsi. They need to put on some muscle there. They should also use some food supplements like Whey or Soya protein.

Of course getting rid of all this gray eminence we have in politics will also help. In US one can always see the Presidents (e.g. Clinton, Dubya, etc) going out for jog with their security men, etc. After winning the elections Obama went to the Gym. Putin is a judo black belt. All this adrenaline and testosterone is good, reeeeealy good. It gives the leaders their appetite for a fight.

Let a sound and healthy body be your contribution to Indian strength.

Rahul, I think it's only natural that people are venting their anger here. What's wrong with that? Unless people are abusing each other, which I see is not the case, it should be fine, IMO.

Ofcourse, I'm new to BR (not exactly though, used to be a regular some years back), so I might be missing a few things here.

RajeshA ji
You forgot to add
The politicos all have a well developed gluteus maximus.

[chetak]

All the armchair rakshaks who were making snide remarks about the ATS deploying 90% of its forces in Malegaon etc. etc. would have known instantly the minute news of Karkare's or Kamte's or Saluskar's death flashed on the screen that this was no ordinary homegrown attack and something very serious was afoot. At that point of time, it would have been the decent thing to do to reign in themselves and their proteges. But ignorance and lack of decency knows no bounds and the ignorant politically motivagted prattling continued for page after page after page.

oh, cut out the insinuations and false allegations.

the outrage was directed entirely at the tasking of the ATS by the Govt which is certainly allowed and in no way indecent. We have NO standing rules to show our allegiance to the govt of the day ! this is NOT the PRC !

there was some frustration at why the ATS was playing ball in the political witch-hunt but NEVER after the mumbai incidents started.
ALL posts on those lines that came to admin notice HAVE been edited out. I should know, I've deleted half a dozen such posts.

if you think that the malegaon incident deserves 90% of ATS efforts then what can I say, 'many happy returns of 26th nov'.
so much for this 'unbiased' business !

If you care, just pick out Nayak's posts..... out of 10 posts, I dont know but the majority speak of bangles and such like... this is a thread about the horrific events in Mumbai and such posters feel actively encouraged to post such crap not once or twice but on page after page....its a combination of these things which is shameful....

I thought we were talking about mumbai ATS.
nice switching tactics BTW.

What do you know about my personal prejudices?

only that it makes you capable of reading much more into posts than that is actually written in them.
for example, you note "this is a thread about the horrific events in Mumbai and such posters feel actively encouraged to post such crap not once or twice but on page after page" but fail to notice the MANY edits that have been done to stop whinings and namecallings.
a supreme example of selective reading at display, congrats !

I understand you would rather have patriotic Indians stopped from discussing the events rather than have the govt criticized but that is NOT a priority for us.

you see, we don't carry the baggage of having to support a govt even if it is non-performing.
Therefore, criticism of the current GoI may attract your 'righteous' anger, but that's not our headache. We are concerned about the Indian on the street, not some 2-bit politician.

@ chetak, A Roy's father is bengali.

I know that boss.

[NRao]

Even the great US is finding it very difficult to put together an acceptable system in place to track unwanted people - plenty of local, state, federal laws to traverse. So, I do not find it out of place for a country like India to be on the leading edge in this particular matter (it NEEDS a lot of work to smooth the laws - if any in India, egos, then build out on real-time technologies). BUT, the biggest challenge India has is that India is actually two worlds: one that is in touch with the "main stream" rest of the world and another that has been totally left behind and forms a majority of the country. The latter's needs are totally different and more urgent (food, shelter, etc). This group cannot be expected to understand, leave alone agree with, the reality of world wide terrorism - until it hurts them.

IMHO, India needs two sets of leaders that are in sync with each other. Touchy issue.

[brihaspati]

There is usually no guarantee that a politician chosen will not succumb to the pressures of parliamentary politics. Having seen this at very close range, I can exactly specify the mechanisms by which political parties ensure or manage ultimately to become corrupt. Strangely it is internal democracy and a structured hierarchical democracy that generates corruption. Each committee member at each level is looking out for supporters who would raise their hands blindly in his support in internal elections - and they will look for people who are "weak" in some sense - so that they remain firmly under control of the leader - now who would allow himself to fall under such control - only people who have weaknesses, greed for money, for women, for power, for influence will gather around these leaders. The general population tolerates or allows this because they simply have forgotten to hope - they just try to survive - for long they have been ruthlessly crushed and exploited by invaders and their internal collaborators. I can also give the outlines of the corrupting practices - raising funds for instance, but more details will reveal more than I care to reveal right now and in any way perhaps irrelevant - there are also activities by infiltrators from the security services who trap members with surveillance on their personal lives and then use this to manipulate parties at the behest of the regime which happens to be in power. Any organization for the future will have to take these factors into account.

I am sorry to say, that the democracy we have in this condition will continue breeding corruption. My first vote against the NDTV, and Prannoy Roy as a Dhimwit - for mounting the campaign to divert attention away from the real cause of this violence - the message of Jihad in the core textual and conceptual philosophy of Islam, and trying to make Indians simply to accept "paying the price for security" - a dangerous diversion of focus from the root cause and one which will be a huge mistake.

Barkha Dutt openly orders censoring of that part of the popular sentiment thats shouting anti-Pakistan slogans - what about shutting the blue-turbaned one? So this is unbiased reporting - dont report anything that hurts Muslims, but everything that hurts "Hindus".

[NRao]

I hear the line "Terrorists have no religion" time
and again. Makes me think if will anything change

Well. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. BUT, one religion has it embedded. And, it pops up whenever it pleases them, under circumstances that they choose.

[chetak]

Headlines today, terrorism debate.
Anybody watch alyque padamsee mouthing off along with that princess of legal erotica teesta?
WHAT is it with decrepit old codgers?
He probably gets it up only on those rare occasions when the wind is blowing in the right direction.
Gas? constipation? piles? rain? his solution is to file a PIL.

[Abheshek]

What did that bitch Teesta said? I want to know that. Somebody please.

[ldev]

ldev, I agree that some stupid posts might have passed under admin radar.
In a time like this when 50 odd people are posting at the same time and and threads are progressing at 5 pages/hr or more, is that too surprising ?
But if that implies 'admin support' for their 'proteges', it also implies that MMS govt is 'supporting' their terrorist 'proteges' in mumbai and elsewhere, right ?
with the series of posts in this thread I'm really disillusioned with your judgement. perhaps it is just the stress of the situation showing on us.
I just hope you don't come up with a smart one-liner as an answer.

In a time like this it is disheartening and frustrating to see a senior BRFite come up with 'admin bias' and assorted accusations instead of advising the said posters against it.

Rahul,

This is OT for this thread but a creeping line of abuse tolerance ultimately knows no bounds, today it is the politicians, tomorrow the police, then the armed forces.... then.... oh of course I forget Kakodkar and Co. I liked it in the past when a certain well known poster who made fun of Vajpayees *steel knees* was threatened by a ban (or was he banned for some time?) by ramana himself. But today ofcourse Karkare and Manmohan Singh are fair game on BRF.....double standards?

[NRao]

brihaspati ji,

It is not that the rest of the countries do not have corruption. In some it is institutionalized and in others it is not. However, IMHO, what does matter is what is the ratio of corruptness to the whole. In countries like India it is fairly large, in countries like the US it is relatively small. So, the impacts are different. The real estate mess in the US today is a form of corruption, which when it became a larger proportion of the whole, the entire industry fell apart and dragged everything else - the good too - with it.

Satyam vada, Dharmam chara. Satya-Mev Vijay-ate.


Modern man only THINKS he is wise. Some things cross time and religions.

[Arjun]

What is key in my mind is whether the government will declare this to be an act of war against the Indian state. We need to put utmost pressure on the government so this declaration happens. You can term the war to be by Islamic terrrorists / non-state Islamic actors / ISI - that is secondary...Key is that the mindset of being in a state of war needs to come in.

[harik]

ldev, I agree that some stupid posts might have passed under admin radar.
In a time like this when 50 odd people are posting at the same time and and threads are progressing at 5 pages/hr or more, is that too surprising ?
But if that implies 'admin support' for their 'proteges', it also implies that MMS govt is 'supporting' their terrorist 'proteges' in mumbai and elsewhere, right ?
with the series of posts in this thread I'm really disillusioned with your judgement. perhaps it is just the stress of the situation showing on us.
I just hope you don't come up with a smart one-liner as an answer.

In a time like this it is disheartening and frustrating to see a senior BRFite come up with 'admin bias' and assorted accusations instead of advising the said posters against it.

Rahul,

This is OT for this thread but a creeping line of abuse tolerance ultimately knows no bounds, today it is the politicians, tomorrow the police, then the armed forces.... then.... oh of course I forget Kakodkar and Co. I liked it in the past when a certain well known poster who made fun of Vajpayees *steel knees* was threatened by a ban (or was he banned for some time?) by ramana himself. But today ofcourse Karkare and Manmohan Singh are fair game on BRF.....double standards?

Wish We had spoken for them at that time ?

[ldev]

N Rao,

It is a question of coordination. The Mumbai Police believed that over the last few years they had secured land routes into Mumbai. Who secures the water routes? Is it the Navy, the Coast Guard or do the Mumbai Police have to have a marine detachment unit. The Taj is on the waterfront as is the Oberoi. Tactically it would make no sense for a bunch of terrorists with their arms and ammo to run the gauntlet of 200 kilometers or more of roads into Mumbai from further down the coast given the state of alert on the roads.

In that sense you are right, the US set up a DHS. India needs similar coordination fusing police, intelligence, paramilitary and military (including naval) assets.

[Abheshek]

ldev, I agree that some stupid posts might have passed under admin radar.
In a time like this when 50 odd people are posting at the same time and and threads are progressing at 5 pages/hr or more, is that too surprising ?
But if that implies 'admin support' for their 'proteges', it also implies that MMS govt is 'supporting' their terrorist 'proteges' in mumbai and elsewhere, right ?
with the series of posts in this thread I'm really disillusioned with your judgement. perhaps it is just the stress of the situation showing on us.
I just hope you don't come up with a smart one-liner as an answer.

In a time like this it is disheartening and frustrating to see a senior BRFite come up with 'admin bias' and assorted accusations instead of advising the said posters against it.

Rahul,

This is OT for this thread but a creeping line of abuse tolerance ultimately knows no bounds, today it is the politicians, tomorrow the police, then the armed forces.... then.... oh of course I forget Kakodkar and Co. I liked it in the past when a certain well known poster who made fun of Vajpayees *steel knees* was threatened by a ban (or was he banned for some time?) by ramana himself. But today ofcourse Karkare and Manmohan Singh are fair game on BRF.....double standards?

You seem to have a problem with us abusing the strong willed, balls-of-steel Sardar Manmohan Singh Ji? After all, he did so much for our country!

As for abusing Armed Forces of India, every patriotic Indian will kill himself before even thinking of abusing our great & brave soldiers.

[A_Gupta]

Quote: [re: Mumbai] "It's nothing but an ongoing military war waged by two nations militaries(Pakistan and Bangladesh) and Indians must admit that it is so instead of blathering about other things including terrorism."

[Vikram_S]

What do you know about my personal prejudices?

well BR should actually know a lot. on mavericks blog you accused BR of being an upper caste hangout of hindu bigots in several posts. attacked the nda repeatedly.

yes, we know your personal beliefs which you have stated on br before and we know your dislike of the bjp and support of the congress. we know you bring your own religious identity into it.

fine, you are a christian and support congress your personal choice and you dislike the BJP, but dont act smart at such a time after the way you have behaved in past. at a time when people are livid with anger at how this govt has let us down, crying with rage you bring in your comments?!?

so dont play more holier than thou and try to be pompous using the deaths in this crisis to support your political viewpoint. it will get nasty that i can assure. tempers are running high and you ballelss wonders sitting outside india dont have the right to lecture br members using the death of people like karkare who was a victim of his political leaders and did his duty as much as he could in constraints. so ****** off with your patronising attitude.

try using the events that have happened now for your UPA politics and you just show yourself to be the real scum unlike us dirty hindu upper caste bigots on BRF

and dont pretend to speak for the army or anyone else also with your patronising advise. people like you have KILLED secularism in this country. no matter what the occasion you will try to slyly insert your rancid bias into the play.

MMS is a disgrace because there have been OVER 4000 deaths in India in the past 3 years. We cant use trains, buses go to malls without the fear that some paki will do something and we will not even be avenged.

ANY GOVT BJP or UPA which is so bad needs to go. You dont like it surrender your US passport and come back to Inida and vote for your congress. dont bloody sit in the US and act high and mighty

[asprinzl]

On the whole as I see it, Indians and Hindus in particular must go through a dramatic self evolution.
You cannot sit on your a$$ and hope things will change.
You cannot sit on your a$$ and hope the guy next to you will change. You must pro-actively change yourself and then try to effect change in the person next to you.
You cannot expect or hope your political leaders will change. You must demand change and if you cannot get change, you change the politician.
Many Indians have this propensity to "out-soursce" solutions. That is "hoping the next guy would take care of the rubbish on the road". Time to end this "perpetual dependence on hope for the next guy" and pick up the rubbish yourself. When terrorists hit, there is this propensity to run to the west to whine about Pakistan. When a NoKo ship transports nuke and missile parts to Pakistan, what the Indians do but to run to the west to whine. Heck, what is the most powerful Navy in Asia doing?

You have 150 million Muslims in India. Thus far, in past history and in the present, with the exception of a few, Muslim presence has not been an asset but a liability and threat to the hosts all over the world. Pretendng otherwise or hoping things will change is not good enough at all. What are the Hindus going to do? Until you find a successful solution to this, you will never sleep peacefully at night. You may sleep but never peacefully. While you are contemplating and hesitating, the Muslim daawa mission is moving forward and forward in all corners of the world. Instead of weakening the hold Islam has over these people, 900 million Hindus have sat on their a$$ and allowed Islam to strenghten its hold over these people. While Muslims, where they are a majority, have used every opportunity and advantage at their disposal, to either dhimmify, subjugate or Islamize which ever non-Muslim minority in their midst, the Hindu majority has made almost no attempt to bring Indian Muslims into Hindu fold. Bringing Muslims into Hindu fold strenghtens your ranks but threatening Muslims lives and his properties increases the Muslim ranks because he will retreat into his inner circle of comfort. Until a solution is found the reduce this 150 million to a much smaller number (murder and deportation is not a solution), there will be vote-bank politics. As long as there is votebank politics, there will be corruption. As long as there is corruption India's frontiers will remain porous. As long as frontiers are porous terrorists will find plump targets to strike and local recruits to help them.

As far as I see it, the Hindu rights movements in India has been championed led by buffons and monkeys without sophistication. That is why in public discourse they are easily made to look like monkeys by well articulated marxists monkeys like A-Roys. Oblivious to this, the wealthy NRI, happily gives away his money thinking his donation goes towards a good Hindu cause. It is a good cause and the idea of it is good but with buffons in charge, all the money in the world cannot make a diddily difference. That is why the Hindu rights movements are still trying to find their ground.

Monkeys like Raj Thuggery are not going to help. The sooner such monkeys are caged the better.

Thus far, most of India's politicians have displayed their moral superiority by behaving cowardly by hiding behind the facade of Ghandism. The electorate that put them there is responsible for that. Time to change that.
Avram

[Rahul M]

..... But today ofcourse Karkare and Manmohan Singh are fair game on BRF.....double standards?

this is patently untruth.
present proof or stop these unjustified accusations.

criticism is allowed, abuse is not. and that is enforced as strictly as possible.
let me quote a statistics for you.
perhaps the largest # of warnings handed out on BRF has MMS namecalling as the cause.

ldev, we are talking about what is happening NOW and I challenge you to find any evidence of double standards in admin work in the last few months. what happened in the past is just that with a variety of reasons as the cause, most of them not applicable now.

[RajeshA]

If Indians have to grow up, they have to put more trust in the Indian State and demand more accountability from the State as well. In USA, if some terror attack of this magnitude happens, there is no two opinions on it. The whole nation rallies around the President. It does not matter which Party he is from, it does not even matter that he may have been a very unpopular President. Politics stops at the nation's borders.

This is may have something to do with the Presidential form of Government. During crisis, one knows who is in charge and he is not bound by the legislature. But I doubt it is just that. It is called being grown up.

I have been listening to people spewing venom at the Prime Minister, in fact at the whole government. This is simply wrong. On the day of the attack one rallies. There is sufficient time to analyze the lapses, place blame and take out the responsibility shuris, the sharper the better. But you do not do that on the day of the attack or in war.

Indian as a nation and Indians as a species, we need to grow up!

[brihaspati]

N Raoji,
No I did not imply that there was no corruption in other countries. All examples you give are of business related corruption even connected to politicians - but in India there is a substantial difference - I was talking about corruption that goes on within the pure process of politics itself as maintained by the structured democratic internal party politics - simply to stay in internal party power hierarchy corruption is generated by that democracy. This is why I am bidding for direct voting by the electorate for a non-partisan president within a presidential form.

[Arjun]

I have been listening to people spewing venom at the Prime Minister, in fact at the whole government. This is simply wrong. On the day of the attack one rallies. There is sufficient time to analyze the lapses, place blame and take out the responsibility shuris, the sharper the better. But you do not do that on the day of the attack or in war.

Rajesh, Does MMS thinks this is an act of war? The day he makes that explicit everybody will rally behind him. The problem is that unlike practically every other nation, Indian leaders have not shown the capability to recognize external threats and address them with the seriousness required.

[Vikram_S]

..... But today ofcourse Karkare and Manmohan Singh are fair game on BRF.....double standards?

this is patently untruth.
present proof or stop these unjustified accusations.

criticism is allowed, abuse is not. and that is enforced as strictly as possible.
let me quote a statistics for you.
perhaps the largest # of warnings handed out on BRF has MMS namecalling as the cause.

ldev, we are talking about what is happening NOW and I challenge you to find any evidence of double standards in admin work in the last few months. what happened in the past is just that with a variety of reasons as the cause, most of them not applicable now.

rahulm,

on mavericks blog this guy was calling brf support of NDA as hindu upper class bigots. he also called arunS names and you are still talking to this guy?

it is people like ldev which have made even the most moderate wonder why india has to suffer such a fifth column. no matter what happens they will curse hindus. as long as we vote BJP. if we vote congress, dont protest EJ be good little bunnies, then it is all fine. as long as other people do what his political prejudices are, it is ok, otherwise they are hindu bigots.

and he is such a @#$$% (words fail me) that he is using karkares death even, at this point.
nobody did this know. even salaskars rivals in police dept are keeping quiet out of dignity and all across india people are gritting their teeth in rage at what has happened. it was KPS Gill who led a procession to ask for ATS methods to be reconsidered, so now KPS Gill has to prove himself to this ldev?? or he is also a upper caste hindu bigot?

and these ldevs sitting in their comfortable homes in countries elsewhere who would never tolerate such a weak leader such as MMS are telling us bugger indians who suffer terrorism about how to behave. and implying threats to BRF moderators.

no better than burkha dutts and sagarika ghose in attempting to stifle thought and channel it into their own political line.

99% of indians on this board still love their country enough to leave politics at the door when something of this scale happens. then there is the 1% like ldev who display their true colors EXACTLY at this time.

[chetak]

There is usually no guarantee that a politician chosen will not succumb to the pressures of parliamentary politics. Having seen this at very close range, I can exactly specify the mechanisms by which political parties ensure or manage ultimately to become corrupt. Strangely it is internal democracy and a structured hierarchical democracy that generates corruption. Each committee member at each level is looking out for supporters who would raise their hands blindly in his support in internal elections - and they will look for people who are "weak" in some sense - so that they remain firmly under control of the leader - now who would allow himself to fall under such control - only people who have weaknesses, greed for money, for women, for power, for influence will gather around these leaders. The general population tolerates or allows this because they simply have forgotten to hope - they just try to survive - for long they have been ruthlessly crushed and exploited by invaders and their internal collaborators. I can also give the outlines of the corrupting practices - raising funds for instance, but more details will reveal more than I care to reveal right now and in any way perhaps irrelevant - there are also activities by infiltrators from the security services who trap members with surveillance on their personal lives and then use this to manipulate parties at the behest of the regime which happens to be in power. Any organization for the future will have to take these factors into account.

I am sorry to say, that the democracy we have in this condition will continue breeding corruption. My first vote against the NDTV, and Prannoy Roy as a Dhimwit - for mounting the campaign to divert attention away from the real cause of this violence - the message of Jihad in the core textual and conceptual philosophy of Islam, and trying to make Indians simply to accept "paying the price for security" - a dangerous diversion of focus from the root cause and one which will be a huge mistake.

Barkha Dutt openly orders censoring of that part of the popular sentiment thats shouting anti-Pakistan slogans - what about shutting the blue-turbaned one? So this is unbiased reporting - dont report anything that hurts Muslims, but everything that hurts "Hindus".

Brihaspati ji
Barkha Dutt and ndtv, two sides of the same coin.
She thinks what happens in kashmir is state sponsored terrorism
She herself is state sponsored journalism.
She shamelessly and barefacedly lobbied and got herself a state award(Padma Shri). Only one other anti India TV scum has done a similar thing in recent memory
Rabidly anti Hindu, all her shows are staged.
Watch her show we the people. Among the audience her sideys choose and pick only those whose questions are not embarrassing to her.
commie to the core, her virulent, biased and venomous views give aid and comfort to our national enemies.

[RajeshA]

I have been listening to people spewing venom at the Prime Minister, in fact at the whole government. This is simply wrong. On the day of the attack one rallies. There is sufficient time to analyze the lapses, place blame and take out the responsibility shuris, the sharper the better. But you do not do that on the day of the attack or in war.

Rajesh, Does MMS thinks this is an act of war? The day he makes that explicit everybody will rally behind him. The problem is that unlike practically every other nation, Indian leaders have not shown the capability to recognize external threats and address them with the seriousness required.

So go at their throats the next week or the week after that, not today! But next week, everybody goes back to sleep and 'chalta hai' attitude, instead of demanding accountability.

[sum]

I have been listening to people spewing venom at the Prime Minister, in fact at the whole government. This is simply wrong. On the day of the attack one rallies. There is sufficient time to analyze the lapses, place blame and take out the responsibility shuris, the sharper the better. But you do not do that on the day of the attack or in war.

Indian as a nation and Indians as a species, we need to grow up!

Sir, those are fine sentiments but what should one do if the government refuses to acknowledge a crisis and tries to pretend that alls clear despite major outrages again and again and again...

Do you think the American public would have kept quiet if after 911, Bush had come on TV and announced that Osama will be invited to DC to share evidence about his involvement? And after that, Bush had acted as if nothing had happened( and asked everyone to maintain communal harmony) and the US was again attacked 2-3 times in the same year, would the US junta have kept quiet?

[munna]

I have been listening to people spewing venom at the Prime Minister, in fact at the whole government. This is simply wrong. On the day of the attack one rallies. There is sufficient time to analyze the lapses, place blame and take out the responsibility shuris, the sharper the better. But you do not do that on the day of the attack or in war.

Indian as a nation and Indians as a species, we need to grow up!

RajeshA while I agree with your assertion of standing behind our leader (howsoever begrudgingly) I do not think it makes sense to back a (p)leader who and whose cabinet have failed the nation miserably over and over again. We cannot be political dhimmis to back them when they are clearly not backing Indians but backing some poor dispossessed minorities. The anger, rage and sense of hurt is what is expected of reasonable men.

[Vikram_S]

Rajesh, Does MMS thinks this is an act of war? The day he makes that explicit everybody will rally behind him. The problem is that unlike practically every other nation, Indian leaders have not shown the capability to recognize external threats and address them with the seriousness required.

So go at their throats the next week or the week after that, not today! But next week, everybody goes back to sleep and 'chalta hai' attitude, instead of demanding accountability.

RajeshA

What are you talking about?!?!? what next week:? how many more chances do we give these guys?
is this the first attack where we are supposed to be resilient and die like helpless animals?

4000 people in 3 years and these - i dont even words for the UPA- did NOTHING
so many people crippled and they give everyone few lakhs and run off in their bullet proof cars

and we are supposed to be resilient again and die AGAIN till next time and give them the go by??!

vote for ANYONE but not UPA and left. i would even vote for george w bush if he comes to india and start own party but not this UPA and left. in quest for vote bank they have left india defenceless.

it is so shameful.
see SPG equipment for UPA leaders!!! no wonder they do not care. they are surrounded by layers of security while we ordinary indians die like flies.

how many more chances do we give these useless sorry pathetic creatures. they have no self respect, no pride. they do not even confide in their political opponents most of the time because they are not "secular". they have failed us TOTALLY

and still we should wait?? you guys living all across the wolrd - NONE OF YOU has such a pathetic government. US has not had a single attack on mainland since 9/11, in india we die like dogs.

and if the dog barks it is a hindu fundamentalist.

to all the secular useless bufffoons living in india, there are muslims lying dead in the train station because you elected such a spinless government. there is a muslim who lost ALL six member of family crying in grief. GM of Taj lost his family. and even now to preserve fig leaf of "secularism" we have to vote for incompetent bufffoons???

In Indonesia detachment 88 was formed after Bali bombings andf they have attacked muslim extremists in Muslim country taking help from australia and US. In India, non muslims will not protect muslims using muslims as an excuse.

this is nothing but SHAMELESS grab for power using secularism as excuse and supported by powerbloc of EJs and other special interest groups. no country can take such incompetence.
it is shameful. govt of india has failed its country totally

[John Snow]

None and or Samjhauta

[enqyoob]

Do you think the American public would have kept quiet if after 911, Bush had come on TV and announced that Osama will be invited to DC to share evidence about his involvement? And after that, Bush had acted as if nothing had happened( and asked everyone to maintain communal harmony) and the US was again attacked 2-3 times in the same year, would the US junta have kept quiet?

Sum, in a word, "YES".

Minutes after the 9/11 attacks, or actually as they were happening, the US Govt. invited the Pakistani terrorist organizer (ISI Chief) to a meeting at the State Dept (he was already there to watch the attack on the Pentagon live) and instead of ordering the B-52s to turn Islamabad into a parking lot, they formed a plot to cover all their musharrafs since they were all involved in forming, funding and nurturing the global terrorist enterprise.

So if the GOI does what the GOTUS did after 9/11, it will be something like this:
1. ISI Gang Chief Durrani will come to Dilli
2. GOI will say: "We are getting attacked daily by terrorists. They are destroying our plans to frame the yindoos. They are laughing at us on the internet. This WILL NOT STAND!

Are you WITH US, or AGAINST US?

If u r with us, u will pls kindly stop attacks against Mumbai, unless they can be framed on the yindoos and the Indian Army. Please collaborate and show us how to plan these attacks and frame them properly.

And then GOI will give orders to the Indian Navy and Air Force to attack McMurdo Sound in Antarctica.