Indian Response to Terrorism

vishal · Post by **vishal** » 28 Nov 2008 22:41

I guess this is a rant...

Dear Mr. Prime Minister,

It is now more than 72 hours since Mumbai was invaded. More than 150 innocent people have lost their lives and I cannot shake off the feeling that more blood will be spilled. It might not happen today, this week or even this month but sure as day folIows night, I and others like me will be targeted for murder again. I am a regular Indian who lives in Mumbai without the protective cover available to people like you. I am not entitled to, nor can I afford, to move in armoured BMW’s, live in fortified complexes and work in the most highly protected office complex in India. I pay to provide these trappings of office to you but the irony is I cannot buy them for my family and myself.

My great tragedy is that those who would do India harm have recognized and exploited the same quality by virtue of which you became the Prime Minister of India. Mrs. Sonia Gandhi saw you as a man who was comfortable with the company of economists and in talking shops. She also saw in you a man with no fighting spirit, lacking a sense of outrage and having an extreme willingness to be pushed about to do her bidding. Unfortunately, those who would do us grave harm saw this too. Attack followed attack as mass murder was visited upon cities and people across the length and breadth of India. Each attack was followed by meaningless statements from you with a total absence of any action later. You failed to protect the people of your country and you failed to provide them the balm of justice. Take away the scepter of justice and you succeed only in inviting your tormentors to visit you again.

Mr. Prime Minister, living behind layers of Plexiglass and having the SPG to protect you and your family seems to have lulled you into an illusion that your fellow Indians are equally safe. Either that or you simply do not care for minor inconveniences like Indians being butchered in their cities.

When news of the invasion, and this is exactly what it was, broke out and the magnitude of the devastation became clear I was seized by anger. The anger has now given away to sadness and resignation because I know you will go about your life as usual once the Army and Navy commandos have done their job. It is not so simple for me. My wife has to take a train from CST a couple of times a week and no one sanitises the station, train or route for her. I pay for your wife to stay safe from those who might want to kill her but I cannot protect my wife. And I know you care not a whit. After all, what do you stand to lose if I die? You never knew me and I am faceless, just another Indian.

What I do see you doing, Mr. Prime Minister, is waffle over the issue of how many eggs and how much ration my protectors of the last resort should get. Were it not for the brave men of the Army, Navy and Air Force we might have been staring at a much larger body count. A body count which includes men who rushed to save others even if it meant taking bullets themselves. I believe the concept of duty towards your countrymen is alien to you. Look no further than the portraits of Vijay Salaskar, Maj. Unnikrishnan, Hemant Karkare and others who died in the line of duty if you wish to ponder over what this rather strange and annoying concept is.

Mr. Prime Minister, I am willing to live with 4% GDP growth but I want my family to be safe. You can go about having your fun with numbers and economic theories but none of that means anything to the people who are murdered or have lost their close ones. The people who died were the ones making your personal goal of a strong economy a reality. They went to work so they could earn a better life for themselves and came back in body bags.

I know you and your merry men have taken what you think is a brave step by naming Pakistan as the source of this infamy but what next? The most important thing for you are the upcoming elections. I wish you well Mr. Prime Minister even as I know you do not reciprocate that feeling. Please stay safe, I would hate it if I knew my money was being ill-spent.

I apologise for my loss of objectivity but dying is kind of personal to me.

Yours sincerely,

Nobody who matters.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 28 Nov 2008 22:46

chetak wrote:
brihaspati wrote:There is usually no guarantee that a politician chosen will not succumb to the pressures of parliamentary politics. Having seen this at very close range, I can exactly specify the mechanisms by which political parties ensure or manage ultimately to become corrupt. Strangely it is internal democracy and a structured hierarchical democracy that generates corruption. Each committee member at each level is looking out for supporters who would raise their hands blindly in his support in internal elections - and they will look for people who are "weak" in some sense - so that they remain firmly under control of the leader - now who would allow himself to fall under such control - only people who have weaknesses, greed for money, for women, for power, for influence will gather around these leaders. The general population tolerates or allows this because they simply have forgotten to hope - they just try to survive - for long they have been ruthlessly crushed and exploited by invaders and their internal collaborators. I can also give the outlines of the corrupting practices - raising funds for instance, but more details will reveal more than I care to reveal right now and in any way perhaps irrelevant - there are also activities by infiltrators from the security services who trap members with surveillance on their personal lives and then use this to manipulate parties at the behest of the regime which happens to be in power. Any organization for the future will have to take these factors into account.

I am sorry to say, that the democracy we have in this condition will continue breeding corruption. My first vote against the NDTV, and Prannoy Roy as a Dhimwit - for mounting the campaign to divert attention away from the real cause of this violence - the message of Jihad in the core textual and conceptual philosophy of Islam, and trying to make Indians simply to accept "paying the price for security" - a dangerous diversion of focus from the root cause and one which will be a huge mistake.

Barkha Dutt openly orders censoring of that part of the popular sentiment thats shouting anti-Pakistan slogans - what about shutting the blue-turbaned one? So this is unbiased reporting - dont report anything that hurts Muslims, but everything that hurts "Hindus".

Brihaspati ji
Barkha Dutt and ndtv, two sides of the same coin.
She thinks what happens in kashmir is state sponsored terrorism
She herself is state sponsored journalism.
She shamelessly and barefacedly lobbied and got herself a state award(Padma Shri). Only one other anti India TV scum has done a similar thing in recent memory
Rabidly anti Hindu, all her shows are staged.
Watch her show we the people. Among the audience her sideys choose and pick only those whose questions are not embarrassing to her.
commie to the core, her virulent, biased and venomous views give aid and comfort to our national enemies.

chetakji

ALL our media except arnab goswami are like this
ALL of them

they are beyond traitors they are totally brainwashed. the secularist gang is crazy. totally crazy. please read amaresh mishra article. he says bombay attacks were BJP + mossad and he writes in indian media and is eminent historian.

in fact they are so crazy that it is unbelievable. editor of MidDay magazine about mumbai says "I am an indian muslim. please kill these terrorist thugs and criminals in cold blood. this is too much how much can we take" and these !!!!!!!!s in UPA first thing they did when they came was to cripple POTA, did not replaced it with anything better or humane, have run down RAW, NSA runs around for nuke deal not doing his job and they will not even give army and services the pay they demand. even on economic front they were a disaster.

to ALL the people telling us indians, sitting wherever you are abroad, to be calm, and rational, and nice and support GOI

this IS unacceptable. no country can take such incompetence and callousness from political leadership.

we ARE not dumb animals to be slaughtered for your dignity so that GOI can look good. GOI is accountable to us. we are not slaves

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 28 Nov 2008 22:48

Vikram_S,

If you read my posts, you might have noticed that I am not talking about giving them any chances at all. I don't want to give them any chances. But it is the wrong attitude to go at their throats on the day of attacks.

I am afraid, that if China were to attack Arunachal or another Kargil takes place, all those overly-zealous or overly-politicized would cripple the Government with their verbal attacks or their non-cooperation, in the end harming ourselves itself.

I am also pleading, that we do not let these incidents be forgotten, and just as there was the 911 Commission after the pleas of the relatives of the 911 dead, and the whole country came to support their cause, similarly the attention of the public should stay on these events much after they are over. I am totally in favor of making a government pay if there have been any lapses. The point is exactly that people are mad at the politicos on the day of the attack, when they should rally around the PM; and they are ambivalent and disinterested when the dust has settled, when they should be demanding accountability.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 28 Nov 2008 22:53

narayanan wrote:
Do you think the American public would have kept quiet if after 911, Bush had come on TV and announced that Osama will be invited to DC to share evidence about his involvement? And after that, Bush had acted as if nothing had happened( and asked everyone to maintain communal harmony) and the US was again attacked 2-3 times in the same year, would the US junta have kept quiet?

Sum, in a word, "YES".

Minutes after the 9/11 attacks, or actually as they were happening, the US Govt. invited the Pakistani terrorist organizer (ISI Chief) to a meeting at the State Dept (he was already there to watch the attack on the Pentagon live) and instead of ordering the B-52s to turn Islamabad into a parking lot, they formed a plot to cover all their musharrafs since they were all involved in forming, funding and nurturing the global terrorist enterprise.

So if the GOI does what the GOTUS did after 9/11, it will be something like this:
1. ISI Gang Chief Durrani will come to Dilli
2. GOI will say: "We are getting attacked daily by terrorists. They are destroying our plans to frame the yindoos. They are laughing at us on the internet. This WILL NOT STAND!

Are you WITH US, or AGAINST US?

If u r with us, u will pls kindly stop attacks against Mumbai, unless they can be framed on the yindoos and the Indian Army. Please collaborate and show us how to plan these attacks and frame them properly.

And then GOI will give orders to the Indian Navy and Air Force to attack McMurdo Sound in Antarctica.

narayanan

today on timesnow. major general rashid qureishi says " after all your own military intelligence bombed samjhauta".

arnab goswami at least fought back but 99% of indian media would have agreed with them.
yesterday sagarika ghose, laughing - yes laughing - was attacking BJP rep on TV. he literally begged her NOT to to play politics at such a time. but she would NOT stop.

with such a fifth column india is well and truly facing a horrible challenge.

the jihadis are nothing compared to the fifth column of media and politicians who will prevent any anti terror measures because the former are brainwashed and latter are using anti terror measures (lack of) for votes.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 28 Nov 2008 22:54

Vikram_S wrote:to ALL the people telling us indians, sitting wherever you are abroad, to be calm, and rational, and nice and support GOI

this IS unacceptable. no country can take such incompetence and callousness from political leadership.

we ARE not dumb animals to be slaughtered for your dignity so that GOI can look good. GOI is accountable to us. we are not slaves

That is exactly what I meant, always hitting out at the wrong targets. You contribute to the general stupidity, which makes us victims of such attacks.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 28 Nov 2008 22:56

criticism is allowed, abuse is not. and that is enforced as strictly as possible.
let me quote a statistics for you......

Rahul M,

I dont know if the first thread on the Mumbai blasts has been archived or not, but go through it. I read the posts as they appeared, dont know if you have since culled them. But references were made to Manmohan Singh wearing or getting bangles, Shivraj Patil putting on makeup etc. etc. Would that meet the definition of abuse? Criticize them for their policies but personal attacks should be totally verbotten IMO and these are definitely personal attacks.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 28 Nov 2008 22:58

Second Call: Should all chapters of BR meet at their respective locations.

The way I see it, the count of BR should go up. and make it a larger pressure group.

Also, as an initial step, set it up internationally, we should pick a date and start a black band (right arm) as a statement of:
1. Solidarity with the troops and
2. Vote of no confidence against the politicians.

Jan 26th is approaching, can we see if it can be turned into something with the public on R-Day parade.

I see you, hence I know, I exist.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 28 Nov 2008 23:01

please sirs, somebody please start a fund for families of those who have made the supreme sacrifice.

money is not everything or anything, but the families of those who made the sacrifice please be kind enough to accept our tokens of gratitude.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Nov 2008 23:03

[edited as per request]

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 28 Nov 2008 23:08

RajeshA wrote:Vikram_S,

If you read my posts, you might have noticed that I am not talking about giving them any chances at all. I don't want to give them any chances. But it is the wrong attitude to go at their throats on the day of attacks.

I am afraid, that if China were to attack Arunachal or another Kargil takes place, all those overly-zealous or overly-politicized would cripple the Government with their verbal attacks or their non-cooperation, in the end harming ourselves itself.

I am also pleading, that we do not let these incidents be forgotten, and just as there was the 911 Commission after the pleas of the relatives of the 911 dead, and the whole country came to support their cause, similarly the attention of the public should stay on these events much after they are over. I am totally in favor of making a government pay if there have been any lapses. The point is exactly that people are mad at the politicos on the day of the attack, when they should rally around the PM; and they are ambivalent and disinterested when the dust has settled, when they should be demanding accountability.

\

what nonsense are you talking rajesh with all due respect? external war from china and whole country will unite. that is easy stuff.

what is happening in india now is totally different and so shameless that it is mindboggling. antiterror measures are being used as bargaining chip for votes. vote us in and we will scrap POTA. on BRF there were UPA supporters in USA, great A from SAJA who was angrily reciting flaws of POTA. but no replacement. and 4000 people have died!! thousands are crippled (see india today article on it)

home minister says naxals are not a threat. bangladesh infilitration is not a worry. this is after people are dying like dogs, in attacks.

how much do you expect us to take? patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels and this guise of spirit of mumbai is exactly that

which country will tolerate so much terrorism and in the guise of cooperation we should keep quiet and suffer?
how much has the indian public and opposition kept quiet? 4000 deaths in 3 years, do you guys sittign abroad in better governed countries even UNDERSTAND what it means? I will tell you.

people have STOPPED using buses, going to malls for months out of fear. they constantly fear for their parents their family in other places. there are families all across india who are crippled and NOBODY cares. how much should we cooperate so these people can retain power?

isnt it a basic right to expect to live? or for votes we cant even do that? nobody minds dying if fate wills. but nobody deserves to be a cripple in a blast when they will not even be avenged.

they did not even agree to the payhikes for the forces. and then the malegaon thing with media publicity. in one stroke india - pak ==.

could not this have been done in secrecy to avoid reputation of indian army being tarnished, if it was truly serious? but no. it was done so that just in time for elections a weapon would be available no matter what happens to india reputation or army reputation. who did tehelka sting last time as well for same reason?

there is a limit to politics. they will NOT defend us. they will take away the laws that allow even fig leaf of defence. they will ATTACK the institution that defend us. They will also have most incompetent leadership in indian history who REFUSE to act against even naxals and bangladeshis. and we should be quiet??

surely even dogs have more self respect. we are below that by now.

That is exactly what I meant, always hitting out at the wrong targets. You contribute to the general stupidity, which makes us victims of such attacks.

then be as brave and stupid as us, dear Rajesh. go take the bus or train and get killed with us. not your autobahns and high speed trains. come back to india from germany and pontificate.

you call us STUPID because you DONT know how frustrated and helpless we feel at times like these. you may be as patriotic as us. you may have family here. but you are NOT here. you have anger but not FEAR because you are not here.

you cannot see the mindnumbing and insanely shameless behaviour of a leadership which will NOT defend its people. you guys pleading reason and sensibility are going to change bigtime when your a$$Es are in the line of fire, as human nature is invariably the same.

the POINT being made is that we have given enough chances to the UPA over 3 YEARS to prove itself. we have remained united, and done the stiff upper lip joke. BJP has kept its mouth shut.

we have done EVERYTHING we could. now dont ask us to be even more quiet.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 Nov 2008 23:10

brihaspati ji, please take the above comments to http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... f=1&t=4213
and kindly edit out the above post.

let's keep this thread focused as much as possible.
thanks.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 28 Nov 2008 23:13

ldev wrote:
criticism is allowed, abuse is not. and that is enforced as strictly as possible.
let me quote a statistics for you......
Rahul M,

I dont know if the first thread on the Mumbai blasts has been archived or not, but go through it. I read the posts as they appeared, dont know if you have since culled them. But references were made to Manmohan Singh wearing or getting bangles, Shivraj Patil putting on makeup etc. etc. Would that meet the definition of abuse? Criticize them for their policies but personal attacks should be totally verbotten IMO and these are definitely personal attacks.

IMO is right. but do you speak for india? have you seen their unbelievable behaviour at times of crisis especially HM?

what is the policy, if not the personal belief of a person who refuses to call the naxals a threat, makes excuses for a bangla infiltration and even SAYS "my leader believes in me" when asked to resign!

vajpayee was steel kneed vajpayee. jaswant was bumbling mumbler. no worries there.

only thing IMO that is wrong is about references to women. women would have done a far better job of protecting their families, their people, then these leaders.

shameful. they simply dont care.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 28 Nov 2008 23:13

what is the point brihaspati? this is all beyond theology and despite it. dont score self goals. first things first. take back mumbai.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 28 Nov 2008 23:16

RajeshA wrote:Vikram_S,

If you read my posts, you might have noticed that I am not talking about giving them any chances at all. I don't want to give them any chances. But it is the wrong attitude to go at their throats on the day of attacks.

I am afraid, that if China were to attack Arunachal or another Kargil takes place, all those overly-zealous or overly-politicized would cripple the Government with their verbal attacks or their non-cooperation, in the end harming ourselves itself.

I am also pleading, that we do not let these incidents be forgotten, and just as there was the 911 Commission after the pleas of the relatives of the 911 dead, and the whole country came to support their cause, similarly the attention of the public should stay on these events much after they are over. I am totally in favor of making a government pay if there have been any lapses. The point is exactly that people are mad at the politicos on the day of the attack, when they should rally around the PM; and they are ambivalent and disinterested when the dust has settled, when they should be demanding accountability.

Rajesh, on the day of war we need the leaders to at least show their INTENT to fight it. We don't need to even see competence, whcih is a different issue which can be addressed down the road. When the leaders show the INTENT, the people will rally behind them. George Bush was masterly at showing the INTENT. Look at the phrases used in these two addresses to the nation, one on 9-11 and the other on 11/27 - and tell me which one expressed the grief and intent better.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases ... 11-16.html

http://www.clipsandcomment.com/2008/11/ ... in-mumbai/

Now you tell me, which leader do you think their respective countrymen will rally around more?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Nov 2008 23:27

A first step towards bringing politics and not politicians into line - is to brutally penalize the central power in overall charge of national defence and security in the elections, whenever such an outrage happens - no matter which regime happens to be in power - every party should realize that they will be penalized brutally - make the target to give them almost zero votes, even "good" politicians should be told, "sorry as long as you are associated with so and so party no votes".

But there is no real alternative to form a focused platform with specific goals to act as a pressure group and wait for future political developments.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 28 Nov 2008 23:30

^^^^

Sir

Rajesh, on the day of war we need the leaders to at least show their INTENT to fight it. We don't need to even see competence, whcih is a different issue which can be addressed down the road.

that is IF they agree IT is a war.

they have bullet proof cavalcades. they have SPG and other poor indians who will die to protect them. their kids go to the best places, dont work and say "i dont mind becoming the PM". (yes, rahul gandhi said that, imagine the gall) and they are TOTALLY immune to indias problems.

Rahul G spent a night in a "dalits hut" to see poverty (wow!!!!) - can we now understand how utterly disaccoiated these people are? all of us have spent time in different communities houses and places and seen poverty and reality first hand, seen people begging, people hungry and know the truth. this guy had to do this after becoming AN AICC GC with ZERO accomplishmnet to his credit till date, for PR Purpose and to "know" what poverty is. can you imagine the life they lead? it is luxury beyond the likes of anyone of us. and now, after one night, he "knows".

this is a feudal dynasty in power, protectedby poor indians who go in harms way for them, they are rich beyond limits, and they get votes using the fig leaf of secularism and by special interest support (Friday prayers, scratch POTA, dont oppose conversion).

so why will they agree it is a war? if it is a war, they might come in harms way. instead it is better to be safe and do NOTHING.

and second. for those people who will now YELL and say n-war!! we cannot fight a n-warr!!!

war can be fought internally as well by strengthening laws, bulking up security to prevent terror. it is possible, it can be fought covertly as well.

but they will NOT do it. they will NOT do it because it will lose them votes from all the mullahs who mobilize votes and from all the benny hills who come to harvest souls. they will NOT do it because they are so safe behind layers of security that bombay or hyderabad or anyplace attacks DONT matter.

it DOES NOT matter.

so they will NOT agree it is a war. see sanjana kapoor response. the "theater elite".

so even speeches will be tailored for making sure above types are not offended. it is ALL about election and staying in power.

even Gandhi saw this coming so he wanted congress to be disbanded after freedom movement, absolute power corrupt absolutely and they have 50 plus years of power at all levels.

it is actually lack of faith in federal government that has even lead to rise of regionalism all over again and caste based parties who are even worse.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 28 Nov 2008 23:34

vikram_S:

I am in complete agreement with you, BUT trying to maintain perspective. We are all way past "frustrated", but rage does not win wars or even battles, especially in the day of the wireless remote control.

Going to the US or Israel for examples on how to fight terrorism, is a seriously mistaken approach, IMO. I state the reasons above. Neither the US model nor the Israeli model has shown real success, although both make a lot of noise and cause a lot of damage.

OTOH, the Indian model has not failed, despite all appearances to the contrary. So "foreign investors" will feel unsafe in India now? Oh really? Go inside any hotel in America, and spend a few minutes reading all the anti-crime advice to guests. Look at the gun-murder statistics. Look at the probability of getting mugged if you walk anywhere. Look at the accidental death statistics. Look at the millions of crazies carrying armaments.

What has happened is terrible, but when everything is talled, some indeterminate number of terrorists, intent on murder, managed to kill about 150 innocents and wound another 300. This does not make India "unsafe".

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 28 Nov 2008 23:38

My wish-list from GOI is that when ISI DG lands here, shield him 400% from DDM so as to not allow the jerk to spew propaganda, demand that the heads and top leadership of LeT and D company be handed over within 72 odd hrs....else, India will have no option but to consider it an act of war on part of TSP and that India is therefore forced to take retaliatory action.

What retaliatory action? Well, a Parakram redux.

Op Parakram in 2002 did make some jarnails see fear, IMHO. A repeat of that mobilization now, when TSP is near-bankrupt, will have far larger implications as well. Won't need to hold the mobilized army for 6 months this time. 6 days will be enough to break TSP provided the west and the rest are clearly told why this is happening.

I know, sounds naive now that I have typed it in. Am sure PRC will signal intent to open a eastern front if we do goto war against TSP.

MAybe a salami slicing cold start is the only way to go. Or a barrage of 50 missiles that take out key institutions such as the GHQ and ISI HQ, and infrastructre including LeT camps. And yes, Kahuta and chashma too, perhaps. All inside 1 hr.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 28 Nov 2008 23:40

I think to fish out more terrorists, ATS need to set up bait terror spots, if they do receive intl inputs.. and channel the operations.. is this possible? do we have intel and setup to do this?

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 28 Nov 2008 23:48

narayanan wrote:vikram_S:

I am in complete agreement with you, BUT trying to maintain perspective. We are all way past "frustrated", but rage does not win wars or even battles, especially in the day of the wireless remote control.

Going to the US or Israel for examples on how to fight terrorism, is a seriously mistaken approach, IMO. I state the reasons above. Neither the US model nor the Israeli model has shown real success, although both make a lot of noise and cause a lot of damage.

OTOH, the Indian model has not failed, despite all appearances to the contrary. So "foreign investors" will feel unsafe in India now? Oh really? Go inside any hotel in America, and spend a few minutes reading all the anti-crime advice to guests. Look at the gun-murder statistics. Look at the probability of getting mugged if you walk anywhere. Look at the accidental death statistics. Look at the millions of crazies carrying armaments.

What has happened is terrible, but when everything is talled, some indeterminate number of terrorists, intent on murder, managed to kill about 150 innocents and wound another 300. This does not make India "unsafe".

\

narayanan

this is not rage alone but such a complete loss of faith in the GOI that it hurts absolutely

i always wondered how our ancestors felt when afghans/arabs/ came into india and attacked time and again, and raped, murdered, killed in the name of religion, and how much our ancestors bore.

i think they felt like we feel today. helpless and numb and full of a rage that is even more because it will not work. they too perhaps were let down by leaders who were equally bad. but at least their leaders died in battle and fought for them.

ours move around in elite clubs and bullet proof cars and have others die for them.

sir, i have to disagree with you. the US is far more secure. you dont get into an AMTRAK and come out with your eye missing and your legs gone. you dont walk into a mall and see people screaming and running every other day in every other majority city.

the india model of security has flopped - the united states or even a european poodle country would not tolerate what we do on a daily basis. every part of india is on fire. and it is because of this fake liberalism of our elite, because they are protected.

nobody has shackled india but its own leaders. we have allowed them to get away with it. no US president could have watched a dozen 9/11s happen and still there would be debate about what to do.

the last thing holding india today is the common mans faith in mai-baap GOI. it is the belief that somehow this country will protect us, we have army, this that and stuff like that.

but with this kind of leadership, even that faith is gone. that is what is dangerous.

seeing this, every dog and his father is now going to fight the indian state.

the army is not infinite. and these leaders have even attacked the army via discrediting it and by the paycommission mess.

it is such a sad state of affairs.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Nov 2008 23:55

Saik,
more likely that such intel will be shared by moles with the terrorists themselves - sources could be possible Muslims or even Islamophiles or extremists of the Red/ethnic separatist/EJ class in some contact with such intel. I don't share the confidence of those posters who rely on the state level agencies so much under the thumb of politicians - in spite of sincere and genuine officers and personnel they must have been infiltrated under Islamophile protection - this is why they work almost under total blindness about Islamic militants. India can only help Pak if Pak agrees to become part of India, and all its Islamic organizations/parties/structures disbanded - but no such Indian regime with such a vision in immediate sight - fingers crossed for the future. But the demand can be raised.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 28 Nov 2008 23:59

Pranab da is the only last leader who has spine in UPA admin. It is amazing to see his slamming of Pak's FM over the mobile phone. We don't hear Pranab da's voice but we can read the face of pak's FM during the conversation. He might have said "why the **** you are here in India and I don't want to meet you. Leave India ASAP".

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 29 Nov 2008 00:00

brihaspati wrote:A first step towards bringing politics and not politicians into line - is to brutally penalize the central power in overall charge of national defence and security in the elections, whenever such an outrage happens - no matter which regime happens to be in power - every party should realize that they will be penalized brutally - make the target to give them almost zero votes, even "good" politicians should be told, "sorry as long as you are associated with so and so party no votes".

Sir

First "possible"I have read.

This is at least somewhat doable
also, special interest groups should be banned. period.
f*** them and their so called h- rights. if there are no conversions from good old west and madrassa financing from ksa and if a political settlement is reached around 4-5 hindu holy places, , islamic history is not whitwashed and governance of hindu places goes from goi to hindus, then even BJP/RSS/VHP issue will be solved. hindu rage will dissipate and become awareness and caution but not burning rage as in gujarat or whenever riots occur.

by your measure, then political parties will compete on competence alone. which is the only solution.

i disagree with parakram type solution as vsudhir proposed.

over 400 soldiers died in mobilisation. it is not a cheap thing in human lives. also if you mobilise you fight. waving a sword as nda did, is only partly useful.

even cold start is not perfect

my solution is to strengthen indian security to worldclass standardzs and to wage relentless battle on paki groups using covert means and carrots to competing groups.

civil war, low grade, in pak mean LeT is tied up

then decouple caste based reservation and make it economic

all benefit, hindus or muslims or whatever. and this will wipe out the poverty = alienation angle

no need for special sachar committee report.

and constant monitoring of ksa and other type entrants into indian culture. countries like indonesia do this. so can we. sorry, india matters more than being a true blue arab muslim.
in return you will get the chance to lead your life way, drink beer, do whatever.

these combination of measures ARE possible.

but they will NEVER happen.

because the india media elite and power class are brainwashed and too power hungry respectively

But there is no real alternative to form a focused platform with specific goals to act as a pressure group and wait for future political developments.

sir, this is NOT possible in india today. the media is totally on the side of the special interest groups. it is beyond greed and moneypower, the st stephen elite and leftists are brainwashed to the extreme. they will not change.

they will attack any measure to reign in the benny hill types and the SIMI types.

so if you start a focused platform group, then you have to be a BIRLA and TATA (money = power) and prepared to accept your name through the mud, because you will be called fascist, hindu scum, fundamentalist and upper caste bigot. and you will face threat to your life 24/7 from pak.

kshirin · Post by **kshirin** » 29 Nov 2008 00:08

Has anyone posted solutions/ what way forward there is? I have for the first time realised the mortal danger India is faced with, we have a failed State on one border, and a jealous raging enemy dragon aching to destroy India's successful democratic model on the other. Plus we have pipsqueak little monsters squirming next door sending their populations to overhwelm ours. We cannot rely on the West, which is trying to use any opportunity to force us to give up our stand on Kashmir, so has anyone on BRF posted a solution? Can we start a search for one? I think a good beginning is for good people to create their own Party and replace the current lot but in terms of strategic moves what si the way forward. Let us put our minds to this. BRF is very creative and full of young idealistic minds and you are sure to come up with a workable solution. Thanks.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 29 Nov 2008 00:20

Impractical as it stands, but something like this needs to be done; it will need Chinese and Iran cooperation, among other things.

Total embargo on the Pakistani military. No visas for them to visit any other country (at least in the Western and Asian world. Saudis no doubt will not prevent them from Hajj.) Total embargo on arms entering Pakistan. All ships entering Pakistan to be boarded and inspected by international naval force, military use items to be confiscated. Embargo on trade to any Pakistan Fauji industry. Unauthorized aircraft entering or leaving Pakistani airspace to be summarily shot down. All this under UN flag. Sanctions to be lifted only after total "beheading" of the Pakistani military.

Added: any detected movement of Paki nukes to be met with first-strike.

kshirin · Post by **kshirin** » 29 Nov 2008 00:27

Excellent idea, one foreign MP was overheard suggesting China be coopted to contain terrorism in Pakistan and ban military sales to Pakistan from China.

Let us begin a search for solutions and then Admins can send a letter to the PM. or someone who can follow through: [quote="A_Gupta"]Impractical as it stands, but something like this needs to be done; it will need Chinese and Iran cooperation, among other things.

Total embargo on the Pakistani military. No visas for them to visit any other country (at least in the Western and Asian world. Saudis no doubt will not prevent them from Hajj.) Total embargo on arms entering Pakistan. All ships entering Pakistan to be boarded and inspected by international naval force, military use items to be confiscated. Embargo on trade to any Pakistan Fauji industry. Unauthorized aircraft entering or leaving Pakistani airspace to be summarily shot down. All this under UN flag. Sanctions to be lifted only after total "beheading" of the Pakistani military.

Added: any detected movement of Paki nukes to be met with first-strike.[/quote]

trivedi · Post by **trivedi** » 29 Nov 2008 00:34

I think we are all making the mistake of focusing only on macro moves. There were several operational things that could have been done better:

1) There STILL doesn't seem to be any automatic procedure in place to scramble MARCOS or other elite teams as soon as news of a terrorist attack breaks. Why do we depend on politically motivated and 'napunsak' state governments to 'call' in the army? Why isn't there a procedure and a command structure in place to get these teams on location in 2 hours and get them in charge?

2) The media wolves will continue to be the media wolves. Even after repeated requests by the army NOT to cover operational details most of these btards continued to give lip service to it while showing exactly how many personnel were moving in from what door. Two simple steps: Circling the entire location with trucks or vans and Pushing every aam-aadmi soul outside the perimeter would have solved this issue. Yes this would have been harder at Nariman building where there were terraces but tough as it is, those people could and should have been evacuated. They weren't.

3) Why the F does the fire department in a city like Bombay not have the building plans for buildings as prominent as the Taj and the Oberoi? Our brave soldiers were going door to door in the dark with no idea of the layout and a single master key. The building and construction permits bureaucrats in all major cities sit around and eat ghoos. Why don't we put them to work gathering and digitizing these plans and making sure the fire department has them so we can use them in crises?

These 3 things alone would have made the task so much easier for our army and possibly saved more lives.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 29 Nov 2008 00:40

trivedi

why not start a new thread on that and your points are all sensible

A Gupta

your suggestion is well taken but unfortunately given geopolitical reality it will not occur.
the very country groups that created pakistan will not now support us just because another few hundred indians died. you should have seen mi-6 guy today, he was refusing to blame pakistan. only when he saw arnabs rage he behaved a bit more rationally.

so even now we seek international help and validation ---> please help us.
israeli expert on tv point blank tells host -- >if indai cannot help itself nobody can/will.
this is the reality. imagine the shame. a person from a country of 6 million is being asked by an indian for "help". this shows our utter weakness (And all of us have this)

second: as iraq model shows, all pakistan will do is outsource full time fighting to 10X jihadis in india. and china will never cooperate with us. it is given, they want us gone, and in 40 pieces. we are only obstacle to them in asia.

ironically it is iran despite nadir shah and todays ayotallah types who might still work with india. but if we work with iran, US will be first to attack us via pysops and trade. and there is quid pro quo factor for iran, which will be expensive if we think of israel.

imo---> only measure that will work is brutal approach. 100% covert ops in pakistan and low grade civil war, keep them burning till pak elite says "hey i want whisky and beer instead".
and strengthen indian counter terror and police so much that it matters and set our house in order.

even this is short term. long term, it scares me. because it means war one way or the other. pakistan will simply not give up, it is rotten to the core as a state and as idea. and it will mutate and keep at it (see b_angladesh today)

---

why is b_angladesh appearing as ***** if i dont use _?

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 29 Nov 2008 00:43

We used to have a handle called Arnab on this forum. Is he the same on TimesNOW?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 Nov 2008 00:44

Mitra/friend,

We have forgotten to hope and dream. We have to dream first, have our goals, and then we can work with level heads towards a practical implementation of that goal. I know we have limitations of media bias against our goals, this is the reason I am asking for an initial platform on a small scale. This can be done very efficiently by people getting together on a common basic simple programme and aim on their own and does not need a huge amount of money - in fact it is better that it does not go too much into the money factor immediately, only self-sponsoring themselves as much as possible - blogging is a good parallel way to start off at least that is beyond the control of the media. This does not have to be a centralized organ to start with - the platform simply asks people that if they agree on given aims and objectives they should act accordingly, network with other similar minded groups, carry out a task of ideological mobilization without paying too much attention to what the detractors are saying - the platform's aims and objectives should be transparent enough as answers. We should counter falsifications and propaganda by our detractors but not target them by name - we should make it so that they are marginal to the nation, not important for the national project, we don't even think of them as persons of note or importance for us to spend time on attacking.

In more than one thread in BR, I have brought this idea of a platform based on concrete programmes and aims I have explicitly spelled out - and I have come up with this response of hopelessness - a kind of giving up even before trying. Fantasies do not remain fantasies for long - that is the human experience in science. I am just inviting BRfites at least to dare to dream and hope - you can modify my proposals but do add on more and better ones - suggest implementations, I am sure you will realize that it just takes a critical mass of minds to take something off - and ideas however small they change nations and societies.

Sorry, but China will never agree to a proposal to trim Pakistan - it will pussyfoot on this as it loses the bargaining chip with India, it will try to bargain on permanent giving up of Tibet by India as an aim, and India to concede occupied territories along the Himalayas. Unless we are sure that we have a regime at the Centre that will not be too eager to concede such items, (a sign in confining Tibetan movement and protests under pressure from PRC) it will be too dangerous to send weak regimes to the negotiating table.

As for micromoves it is best left to the professionals - a single dedicated agency with branches located with tactical coverage and terrain considerations in mind can be very easily worked out by the professionals in the field.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 29 Nov 2008 00:46

Years after J&K accession to India, and the ensuing push of the Pushtun tribals into PoK, we the tiny-weeny jingo types (anybody would be that when standing next to a pSec), are still lamenting the lost opportunity.
Years after 1965, we are still lamenting the lost opportunity.
Years after Kargil is over, we are still lamenting the lost opportunity.

Only Indira Gandhi knew how to turn an opportunity into victory. None before her, and none after her. At that time America sent an Armada to the Bay of Bengal, and we still showed the middle finger.

This is THE opportunity. We should not miss it. Did the UPA Government not say, that we will protect our Independent Foreign Policy?! So don't let our foreign policy be determined by Washington right now. This time USA is not totally on the other side. If we are clever, we can show Washington new possibilities.

If we let TSP to buy us off with a couple of low level LeT fellas (who perhaps may already have fallen out of grace with the organization), then our friends will never put any faith in our spine. If we want the respect of our enemies and our friends, then we have to act. This is a golden opportunity because either the footprint of local Indian Muslim groups is missing or minimal, and even if it is minimal, then we can show how TSP has been building up Islamic extremist groups in India.

Let's go for the jugular of Pakistan. Let's not lament this opportunity in the years to come.

Indian National Congress should know, their only chance of surviving as a viable national party, is to go to WAR or give some other fitting reply, and not some demarche to some Kiyani. This time it is not Kiya-nahi, but Kiya-hai.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 29 Nov 2008 00:48

Just heard on Fox, Somalian pirates have captured an Indian ship and its 25 crew members are held hostage. Just a co-incident ?

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 29 Nov 2008 00:50

Vikram_S wrote:
Rahul M wrote: this is patently untruth.
present proof or stop these unjustified accusations.

criticism is allowed, abuse is not. and that is enforced as strictly as possible.
let me quote a statistics for you.
perhaps the largest # of warnings handed out on BRF has MMS namecalling as the cause.

ldev, we are talking about what is happening NOW and I challenge you to find any evidence of double standards in admin work in the last few months. what happened in the past is just that with a variety of reasons as the cause, most of them not applicable now.
rahulm,

on mavericks blog this guy was calling brf support of NDA as hindu upper class bigots. he also called arunS names and you are still talking to this guy?

it is people like ldev which have made even the most moderate wonder why india has to suffer such a fifth column. no matter what happens they will curse hindus. as long as we vote BJP. if we vote congress, dont protest EJ be good little bunnies, then it is all fine. as long as other people do what his political prejudices are, it is ok, otherwise they are hindu bigots.

and he is such a @#$$% (words fail me) that he is using karkares death even, at this point.
nobody did this know. even salaskars rivals in police dept are keeping quiet out of dignity and all across india people are gritting their teeth in rage at what has happened. it was KPS Gill who led a procession to ask for ATS methods to be reconsidered, so now KPS Gill has to prove himself to this ldev?? or he is also a upper caste hindu bigot?

and these ldevs sitting in their comfortable homes in countries elsewhere who would never tolerate such a weak leader such as MMS are telling us bugger indians who suffer terrorism about how to behave. and implying threats to BRF moderators.

no better than burkha dutts and sagarika ghose in attempting to stifle thought and channel it into their own political line.

99% of indians on this board still love their country enough to leave politics at the door when something of this scale happens. then there is the 1% like ldev who display their true colors EXACTLY at this time.

My only and last comment:

>> this guy was calling brf support of NDA as hindu upper class bigots.

I am a low cast Shudra Hindu lover of India (Vishwakarma being a Shudra/artisan varna). My print and web articles carry my proud family name "Arun Vishwakarma".

trivedi · Post by **trivedi** » 29 Nov 2008 00:52

Vikram_S wrote:trivedi

why not start a new thread on that and your points are all sensible

Thanks for the suggestion Vikram_S. Just did that.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 29 Nov 2008 00:54

Arun, I am sorry to say this but by answering some knuckle-heads you are giving unnecessary credibilty to those who made such idiotic statements about BRF.

trivedi · Post by **trivedi** » 29 Nov 2008 00:58

Arun_S wrote: I am a low cast Shudra Hindu lover of India (Vishwakarma being a Shudra/artisan varna). My print and web articles carry my proud family name "Arun Vishwakarma".

Cast is as irrelevant to patriotism as the colour of an object to its weight.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 29 Nov 2008 01:01

trivedi wrote:
Arun_S wrote: I am a low cast Shudra Hindu lover of India (Vishwakarma being a Shudra/artisan varna). My print and web articles carry my proud family name "Arun Vishwakarma".
Cast is as irrelevant to patriotism as the colour of an object to its weight.

Yes but that is because the stupid photons have no weight. That is also why we call something light-weight.

Plz ignore me.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 29 Nov 2008 01:05

ArunS wrote:My only and last comment:
>> this guy was calling brf support of NDA as hindu upper class bigots.
I am a low cast Shudra Hindu lover of India (Vishwakarma being a Shudra/artisan varna). My print and web articles carry my proud family name "Arun Vishwakarma".

thank you ArunS for your well deserved pride in your family.

muppalla, i disagree. it was much needed and required. aruns comment puts all these people in their worthless place. the ones who made those comments should at least have some shame now (but they will not). it just proves what i said to brihaspatiji --- stand up for your right to live, and you will be attacked, irrespective of truth.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 29 Nov 2008 01:13

Defensive:
1. Major upgrade of security institutions.
2. Involvement of people in civil defense - e.g., via drills and exercises in major cities simulating terrorist attacks.
3. Outreach to peoples living on the coasts and borders - they should have hotline to intelligence agencies.
4. [very hard] - I think terrorists reuse logistic channels created up by criminals. There needs to be a major clampdown on crime in India.
5. Commutation of sentences of criminals who turn in terrorists.

R_Kumar · Post by **R_Kumar** » 29 Nov 2008 01:27

Muppalla wrote:
UPA's biggest achievement - Every Tom Dick and Harry on the international and Indian media is talking about "Hindu Terrorism". They simply destroyed all the handles that India got in dealing with terrorism.

This is such a tragedy. One of the most liberal and peace loving group have been made terrorist in many eyes. Feel so sad.