Indian Response to Terrorism

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 29 Nov 2008 01:48

The Indian constituition should recognise jihad as a legitimate religious enterprise, so that murder for this particular god is regularised. Cultural practices of Indians must be legitimised.

Ujjal · Post by **Ujjal** » 29 Nov 2008 02:24

ISI chief coming to India (and GOP being friendly to GOI, doing interviews here and there etc.) possibly annuls any sort of physical response from India. Don't expect any limited war or surgical strikes.

Will the chief be shown concrete proof and coerced to take action and hand over the left over pigs or face CIA-style Italian kidnapping? That needs to be seen.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 29 Nov 2008 02:44

R_Kumar wrote:
Muppalla wrote:
UPA's biggest achievement - Every Tom Dick and Harry on the international and Indian media is talking about "Hindu Terrorism". They simply destroyed all the handles that India got in dealing with terrorism.
This is such a tragedy. One of the most liberal and peace loving group have been made terrorist in many eyes. Feel so sad.

Digging deeper brings out the gem of kangress is controlled by EJ/Jihaid combo. MMS is just a face and their is no Hindu representative in current power structure.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 29 Nov 2008 02:48

R_Kumar wrote:
Muppalla wrote:
UPA's biggest achievement - Every Tom Dick and Harry on the international and Indian media is talking about "Hindu Terrorism". They simply destroyed all the handles that India got in dealing with terrorism.
This is such a tragedy. One of the most liberal and peace loving group have been made terrorist in many eyes. Feel so sad.

sir these people are not nationalists like old congress, which even if it was gandhi family's personal camp, at least had madhavrao scindia, rajesh pilot and others to balance-- power at all cost types like arjun singh.

this new congress is mixture of sycophants, left-atheists, professional special interest group supporter (YS reddy and many others who are pushing quasi religious agendas) and few well intention but basically helpless people like pranab and antony. it is led by a lady who has discovered she likes power and wants it forever. and a rubber stamp of PM who is also not a nationalist ie a person who says for better or worse, my country, my country. this entire group is basically not coherent and wants power. that is it. and antony, pranabda are along for the ride. if they speak up, they will be dropped.

would indira gandhi ever gone to oxford and make the comments MMS did (in brf people were giving excuses for that also), would she have let such a stupid mistake of rubbishing the army for political gain via malegoan happen and had it discrediting india's terrorist problem from pak? this is the problem with MMS, he is basically not in charge and his own beliefs are whimsy. he is himself a light old school mild leftist who first hates the BJP (how many times we have had this described in media) and on top of it, has never developed a hard indian political spine, like IG and PVNR had. this is the problem. even n-deal suffered this since he would not let the opposition into confidence and basically went about in circular way and on such strategic/ hard issues he is still clueless.

this UPA govt came in power by accident, made many deals to stay in power, and today it stands totally helpless since like of MMS never took hard decision. which takes the final edge of ruthlessness which even rustic fellow like lalu has. because he has come through the hard way of indian politics. our MMS is basically a leftist academic who has now been given PM on a platter, since he was not a political threat to mrs gandhi and is facing decision which others always made for him.

when UPA came how much hope we had thinking after bumbling "lightning will strike, will not strike" Vajpayee now grand old party of india for better or worse Congress will come and take hard decision ...but today this Congress is nothing but national version of samajwadi party or BSP. it run for one family, and just wants power. anything goes.

i think the people of india have to decide, especially the minorities.

is conversion to other faiths because some power hungry leaders want it that way, the right to basically be out of touch with other faiths --- is all this so important that the end result is you vote for an incompetent governemt which cannot protect anyone?

please see reports from mumbai - many muslims have been killed. and IT IS ALSO A religious war. the paki is talking of jihad and momeen vs kaffir on the call. AND THEY KILLED many muslims, christians also.

so the people of india have a choice. ELECT A USELESS Govt which CANNOT PROTECT ANYONE or rise above your religion and VOTE for the opponent and teach this dynasty politics a lesson for this AND MANY OTHER elections.

make opponent party more well rounded and more attuned to basic needs, compromise on useless stuff like conversion agenda of western hate mongerers and Middle easterners, and at least BE SAFE unlike now.

what a joke we have. MJ Akbar must be wondering. he was proudly telling that almost all of us joined to vote for UPA - and now look at result.

all we have is one half deal with US and given current mumbai happenings i am not too sure i want 100 nuclear reactor across india.

faraz · Post by **faraz** » 29 Nov 2008 02:53

Ujjal wrote:ISI chief coming to India (and GOP being friendly to GOI, doing interviews here and there etc.) possibly annuls any sort of physical response from India. Don't expect any limited war or surgical strikes.

Will the chief be shown concrete proof and coerced to take action and hand over the left over pigs or face CIA-style Italian kidnapping? That needs to be seen.

This is just a farce , a show by this lame-duck Government , my friend. Tell me one inquiry they have had for any terrrorist attack in this country.

MMS is no Golda Meir to order strikes against terrorists and their supporters.

disha · Post by **disha** » 29 Nov 2008 03:03

Ujjal wrote:ISI chief coming to India (and GOP being friendly to GOI, doing interviews here and there etc.) possibly annuls any sort of physical response from India. Don't expect any limited war or surgical strikes.

Will the chief be shown concrete proof and coerced to take action and hand over the left over pigs or face CIA-style Italian kidnapping? That needs to be seen.

I was thinking about this and was wondering what the response should be ...

1. We cannot turn pukistan into a field of glass - too much waste of resources and we would not be allowed to do so even if we have the capacity.

2. We do not trust our politicos to carry out Golda Meir kind of surgical strikes to make them pay.

So what do we do? We should look back at history and actually invite the family of ISI generals - past and present and all the kids of the elites and give them education etc at their cost. And any such adventure whether attributable to them or not, their families go [you know where]. The hope here is that the turds love their family and kids ...

Vikramaditya · Post by **Vikramaditya** » 29 Nov 2008 03:53

what is utterly shocking and utterly grating is that absolutely no one worth his salt ( I mean Zilch ) is ready to connect the dots and trace this savegry back to Gondwana. Is the entire world sooo bloody naive (and dumb ) ? What else will it take for the Literatti to pull their heads out of the sand ?

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 29 Nov 2008 04:10

UPA cheerleader TOI writes:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/PMs_ ... 771339.cms

PM's terror stand comes back to haunt him
29 Nov 2008, 0308 hrs IST, TNN
Print Email Share Save Comment Text:
NEW DELHI: Of all his formulations, the one that has returned most often to haunt Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is the assertion that Pakistan too, like India, was a victim of terrorism. The macabre irony embedded in the peculiar hypenation plays itself out in a ghastly re-run with every terror strike.

The PM's remark, made before a meeting with Pakistan's former dictator Pervez Musharraf in September 2006, indicated a singular failure to appreciate the nature of the terror threat and Islamabad's role in ensuring India remains in a near-permanent state of fearful expectation. In a stroke, the wolf had been turned into a lamb.

Not only do wolves usually don't really change colours, what was remarkable about Singh's statement was it came barely two months after the 11/7 Mumbai train bombings where the government saw a Pakistani hand. Yet, a yo-yo response — just a month earlier he said the peace process with Pakistan was under threat — has marked the PM's approach to terror.

His tough-sounding words after the massive November 26 attack on Mumbai — that he would "take up" with neighbours the use of their territory for launching strikes against India and that "individuals and organisations" behind the outrage would be hunted down — sound like a tinny, worn out record. Even the PM's aides might find the cowboy act a little hard to swallow.

Politics can be an unforgiving line of work but the PM has chosen to ignore the perils of not learning from mistakes. Soon after serials blasts in Jaipur, Ahmedabad and Delhi shook the country, Singh told a governors conference that he was not opposed to tightening anti-terror laws.

The point really is whether the government is flexible to the point of bending before every storm. Soon, after Congress's political calculations ruled out special anti-terror laws, the PM developed an amnesia that afflicts politicians. Until the fidayeen struck Mumbai. "Existing laws will be tightened to ensure there are no loopholes for terrorists to escape," the PM intoned on Thursday. Disbelief wrestled with incredulity.

No one really believes any laws will be added or changed. The promise of a federal investigative agency has been part of a file in PMO for many months now.

After having bought into the political argument that anti-terror laws "target" minorities, Congress has found it difficult to retrace its steps. Yet, with each succeeding terrorist atrocity, the pressure to be seen to be doing something has increased. But the PM has sought to make concessions that Congress is not prepared to underwrite.

Apart from the India-US nuclear deal, the PM has tended to see peace with Pakistan as part of his legacy. But even as he built useful CBMs with Musharraf, the bid to de-militarise Siachen shocked the armed forces which felt the plan was ill considered. Today, the "mountain of peace" line seems more tacky than it ever did.
-----------------------

what has india done to deserve such naive, bumbling leaders who are so full of themselves

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Nov 2008 04:25

There is clear dichotomy between the elected govt of TSP(Zardari and Poor Peoples Party) and the ones who carried it out i.e. the TSP RATS and ISI and Jihadi irregular Army. the elected govt is screaming please don't target us. And US is also saying that for they dont want instability which will add to their problems what with the financial meltdown and two wars bogged down.

At same time TSP giovt cant say don't target us while they give free rein to terrorists to run amok in the neighborhood. They have to rein in the terrorists or let others do their job which is to clear the kabila guards: TSP Army, irregular armies and the uleama. It will be done forcefully by zabardasti which they understand or they can become modernized and start putting the guards back into barracks.

This is an unstable situation like a Mexican standoff.

Either way I think the TSP Army will conduct a transfer of power aka coup right during Indian elections. And thus give Obama his test.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 29 Nov 2008 04:33

A_Gupta wrote:Defensive:
1. Major upgrade of ...

Arm chair generalship apart, each of you do something practical. Comment a few places. Start a web site. Add a note with true events if you already have a website. Get the truth higher in google search results, and keep it there. Don't hide TSP thread from the main page of BR. Don't close NSN threads willy-nilly. Its not that hard. Do something instead of ranting.

Also, if you know a journalist, tear him a new one every day regardless of his opinion/record. Get a good sole shoe, and don't be afraid to use it. Each one deserves what's due to the entire community. Those that bear with the DDM, being journalists, aid and abet.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 29 Nov 2008 05:16

Main Sooar Azaz was on Fox in his 400th avatar as foreign policy expert. He pretty much stated non state actors in Pakistan playing this terrorist game and its their response to Zardari's peace offer, No forst use etc to India .

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Nov 2008 05:30

On response we can start in BRF itself is not to encourage divisive views and snide remarks on the nation state. And ban members who promote division.

trivedi · Post by **trivedi** » 29 Nov 2008 05:52

ramana wrote:
Either way I think the TSP Army will conduct a transfer of power aka coup right during Indian elections. And thus give Obama his test.

That's very plausible, and would be easy for Kayani especially given that Zardari has already been branded as 'weak' because he said yes to sending the ISI chief to India before Kayani said no.

Yet, it may not play out that way. The way Kayani has consciously stayed behind the scenes so far, he strikes me as a politically savvy figure who realized that the US would chop off his nuts if pulled a Musharraf, especially after their favorite actress Benazeer was murdered. The US has only gotten angrier since then and Obama has made much tougher noises than Bush on Pakistan.

So methinks the coup will be a silent one, leaving Zardari even more of a figurehead than he is (if that is even possible - Kayani has already overruled his orders in public once)

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 29 Nov 2008 06:16

I think that it is quite obvious that security of coastal areas will have to be stepped up if India is to remain an economic poower. Narendra Modi has suggested a 3 tiered security ring around coastal areas. It sounds good but I think that we may need more than that. Who will regulate the no. of fishermen in the waters? Every fisherman/woman must be IDd and issued a permit that must be renewed every year. To enter the waters, the fishermen must swipe the ID card that will inform a coast guard database of his entry into the waters. Every fishing boat must be issued a tag number that must be painted on its sides conspicously. Any boat not thus equipped will not be allowed into the waters and will be impounded. Each ID will allow access to unique areas based on security clearance.

There need to be several patrol vessels (lot of money required) covering most of the important coastal areas. Additionally Indian Navy vessels and MPA must be on patrol on intercept routes to detect and apprehend any such vessels. The data links on the IN ships and MPAs should permit them access to the Coast Guard database and enable to determine if some of boats/vessels/ships are in areas where they should not be.

I would love to hear discussion on lines similar to these.

My advice to all - believe in democracy and prerssurize your elected representatives for action not just talk. BJP and INC must stop their petty squabbles.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 29 Nov 2008 06:41

Vivek K wrote:I think that it is quite obvious that security of coastal areas will have to be stepped up if India is to remain an economic poower. Narendra Modi has suggested a 3 tiered security ring around coastal areas. It sounds good but I think that we may need more than that. Who will regulate the no. of fishermen in the waters? Every fisherman/woman must be IDd and issued a permit that must be renewed every year.

My house is only 1 min from the sea shore. I can see all the fishermen and family all around. Only solution is vigilance by the local people who watch any outsider come to the area.

Have hot lines and have groups who are informers to the local govt and police.

Ananth · Post by **Ananth** » 29 Nov 2008 07:00

The last three days have been totally unprecedented.

Taking a step back and looking at the whole situation we see a whole new level of capability displayed by TSP.

1) Ability to train relatively young fellows and dispatch them to execute a relatively successful terrorist mission against India. This point is really important, considering the oversupply of unemployable jihadis in TSP.

2) Adding to the previous point, display of confidence that a mission left in the hands of relatively young guys would be successful.

3) Display of through planning, requisition of logistics and execution. See the number of steps they were able to execute without even a single step exposed. Even if it was exposed, it was not detrimental to their designs. This really shows that the people involved are relatively skilled, I would not be surprised if the links to TSPA comes out.

4) Precise identification of soft targets: economic and cultural hub, high concentration of foreigners, lack of security and able to anonymize themselves easily in the crowd.

5) Following point 3, their operation seems to have been in works for a long time and their ability to mingle in the crowd without raising any alarms. From the interview of MARCOS commander, they were familiar with the building layout and it would have taken them quite sometime to do the recce missions.

6) Using tech as force multipliers. I don't think they would have foreseen the kind of media coverage, but they were definitely able to mine the uncensored media coverage for information.

Last three days also exploded some myths and exposed the crass attitude of media
- Terrorists are a result of poverty. These terrorists are decently educated and quite capable of exploiting latest tech.
- Media can self regulate. The sham of NBA has been exposed. They will definitely hear some kind penetrating words from MIB babus pretty soon.
- Media can influence the public opinion. This was other way round. The public outrage made them turn around.
- The total crass attitude of thrusting mikes in the faces of hostage victims, and patting themselves on their own backs for "surviving bullets while reporting", relaying operational details while feigning compliance has been duly noted. They traded few more shards of remaining credibility for TRP rating.
- India TV must be blacklisted. How do they know that they were actually interviewing the terrorist? Are they fooling the people?

Now for all those people wet dreaming about attacking TSP. Keep dreaming. Arre bhai, attack whom, how and to achieve what? Bombing Pindi will not achieve much other than killing ordinary Abduls. Further we would come out as Dubya: Totally stupid and lacking control. The terrorists have displayed their capability in identifing our interests and attacking them. To this should our reply be incoherent feverish fit? Dekho bhai, over the last year TSP has been in gross pain on its western border. That gives some clues. In the short term:
- Identifying precisely what are material interests dear to TSP elite and which of those interests are vulnerable.
- How can you motivate TSP army to do the excellent job they have been doing over last year: kill more of their own citizens.
- Figure out a way of giving employment to the the vast unemployed jihadis. Targets in Defence colony, Karachi are much more accessible to them than Greater Kailash, Delhi. They can simply go around to wreck havoc.

In the medium term:
- Take over the control of herion labs and drug traffic. If not disrupt the logistics throughly.
- Increase water wars between Punjab on one hand and rest of the provinces on the other.
- TSP will be resource stressed, ensure that the complete blame for the problems arising out of them are taken by the TSP elite. They have been pretty successful in portraying India to be responsible for all their ills. Don't let it continue.

In the long term:
- Destroy Pakistan as a political entity.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 Nov 2008 07:03

Ramanaji,
Can you please expand on what for you are "divisive views" and why you need to "ban" them if they are not attractive to the majority anyway? After all democracy is putting trust in the majority to decide for the best, isn't it? There is a huge call on the media, with selective focus on opinions that call for "unity" and not be affected by "divisive views". In India not promoting divisive views is equivalent to supporting only the position of a particular political group.

Thinking very calmly and rather detachedly, I find the following :

(1) The superb tactical use of the nooks and crannies of the Taj hotel by the surviving terrorists clearly indicate that they have had time to practise their moves on spot - this means they were in a sufficiently accpetable clearance within the hotel service to be allowed to move freely to familiarize themselves to the extent that they can react terrainwise instantly almost without thinking - those of you who have had any experience of practising for field ops will know that it is not gained within a few hours of first arriving in the ops arena (it also has to be practised under different lighting conditions especially both in day and night). This is also not a remote, unpopulated area, so these movements had to appear natural and not worthy of suspicion - indicating possible cover of service staff or staff who would be expected to be at all parts of the hotel. Indian staff of what background would you expect to collaborate with such a venture?

(2) Gen. Kiani is not coming. This can be passed for hurt pride of a nation in having to send its military chief to the "enemy". Such sending could also be interpreted as partial acknowledgement of complicity or acceptance of Indian PM's insinuation. What is the ideological background behind such reasoning? (well it is also possible that Kiani fears or has been made to fear by Western or Chinese sources that retaliatory action could be planned on Pakistan by India and that he should not leave the country - Kiani could have been hoping for exactly such retaliations so that he could either formally or informally sideline Zardari)

So we should not talk about the ideological motivations behind the Mumbai attacks even if some of us are of the opinion that it is this important ideological factor that sustains and promotes such attacks, for such a talk could identify a particular ideology and since it has a large following it would be "divisive"? I am also not sure about snide remarks about the nation state. If someone feels that there are aspects of the nation state that needs modification to make it better prepared to prevent such attacks by doing away with the root causes that promote such attacks, then they should be "banned"?

Sometimes pretending that there is no division when there is one can be dangerous, just as the "Hindi Chini bhai bhai" slogan was immediately before Indian soldiers were crying in frustration at being so ill equipeed that their fingers froze before they even could press the trigger (I personally knew one) before advancing Chinese troops.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Nov 2008 07:09

later. Not you. Already banned the chap or chaplet.

ManuT · Post by **ManuT** » 29 Nov 2008 07:10

ISI Chief no longer coming to India

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 29 Nov 2008 07:23

Attacking Pakistan without prior planning on the spur of the moment is militarily stupid. Especially if basic intelligence assumptions can be made, the Pakistan military would have been prepared and had been planning for such an eventuality once their pets has unleashed the havoc. Pakistan has to be attacked if at all, when it is least expecting it. The excuse for attacking Pak cannot be one that comes as a result of some action by Pakistan, but as the result of an action initiated and planned by India to which Pakistan reacts - so that time and space can be chosen by the Indian side. India is not ready for it. Moreover as Klauswitz remarks in his work, that war is an extension of politics - politically India is not yet ready for it, for its leaders and people's self-assigned spokespersons think that the greatest danger is a splitting of the country along "religious" lines and that we have to show such unity by not exploring the ideological motivations behind terror (uncannily familiar to the vulgar Marxist position that all violence not originating from sources approved by Marx stems from economic deprivation) this as per our media Ayatollahs' firmans - and war on Pakistan can scratch the sentiments of that ideology here in India. You cannot go into war with a division in your mind and political will.

Ramanaji, yes I understand.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 29 Nov 2008 07:36

Shreeman,
What do you think I've been doing all day?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Nov 2008 10:07

brihaspati wrote:Attacking Pakistan without prior planning on the spur of the moment is militarily stupid. ...........

Ramanaji, yes I understand.

Since Pakistan wants to cooperate in this common menace, Pakistan MUST hand over LeT leadership to be tried ASAP in India.

This is the time to isolate ISI/PA.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Nov 2008 10:08

FYI:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/world ... nted=print

November 29, 2008
Crisis May Shift Political Landscape
By SOMINI SENGUPTA

MUMBAI, India — At midmorning on Friday, as Indian troops continued to comb through the devastated Oberoi hotel, an unexpected guest appeared on the sidewalk: Narendra Modi, a Hindu nationalist from the opposition Bharatiya Janata Party and arguably India’s most incendiary politician.

Speaking before a row of television cameras, he said the central government had failed to tackle a growing terrorism threat and he found fault with a speech by India’s prime minister a day earlier. “The country expected a lot from Prime Minister Manmohan Singh,” he said, “but his address to the nation was disappointing.”

The appearance of Mr. Modi — who has been barred from entering the United States for violations of religious freedom — signaled how the two-day siege of Mumbai had instantly turned into political ammunition for coming national elections. After a string of attacks across Indian cities earlier this year, Mr. Modi’s party, also known as the B.J.P., pledged to make national security its main campaign issue. This week’s audacious attacks on the country’s commercial capital, and their timing, gave the party an additional boost.

Five state elections are under way, with the city-state of Delhi going to the polls on Saturday. National balloting is expected to be held next spring.

It was only four years ago that the Bharatiya Janata Party, then leading a coalition government, was routed in national elections, partly because of at least two high-profile terrorism episodes during its tenure: a suicide attack on the Indian Parliament building in 2001 and the hijacking of an Indian Airlines plane to Kandahar, Afghanistan, in 1999.

Mr. Singh and his Congress Party hoped to ride a booming economy and rising prosperity to victory next year despite a steady series of bombings and other violence in recent months. And that had seemed a sensible course: studies of previous national elections have shown economic issues to be the most important concern for the average voter, said Yogendra Yadav, a political analyst with the Center for the Study of Developing Societies in Delhi.

But Mr. Yadav said he doubted that pattern would stand up after this latest assault. In an intensely competitive political landscape, small margins can make a big difference, which is why he argued that the terrorist threat would inevitably figure more centrally in the next national elections.

Mr. Singh’s administration would have to be seen as doing “something fast, something visible,” he said, to shake off the perception that it is weak on national security. The Congress Party “has to be seen to be doing something which directly addresses the widely shared popular perception that the country is being attacked from outside, that it is under aggression,” Mr. Yadav said.

On Friday, front-page advertisements appeared in several newspapers in Delhi showing blood splattered against a black background and the slogan “Brutal Terror Strikes At Will” in bold capital letters. The ads signed off with a simple message: “Fight Terror. Vote B.J.P.”

There were also advertisements that were cast as an appeal from Atal Bihari Vajpayee, a prime minister in the last B.J.P.-led coalition government. They cited the loss of lives in Mumbai and concluded, “We must elect a government that can fight terror tooth and nail.”

Nor did the party’s president, Lal Krishna Advani, lose any time in pointing fingers at the coalition government of Mr. Singh, accusing it of a “nonserious approach” that allowed suspected terrorists to sail onto the shores of Mumbai this week.

Kapil Sibal, a veteran of the Congress Party, swiftly hit back, accusing Mr. Modi of placing his party’s interests above those of the nation and calling the B.J.P. advertisements “a matter of national shame.” In a telephone interview on Friday night, Mr. Sibal would not say whether recent terrorist attacks — including this week’s, the most spectacular and the most frightening — would have any bearing on his party’s election prospects. He called it “not relevant.”

That now may be wishful thinking. Terrorism may be grievously relevant to the fortunes of the ruling party, under whose watch Indian cities have suffered a string of attacks — six of them in six months, killing roughly 375 people in all. After each one, the prime minister has issued a sobering statement calling for calm. After each one, the B.J.P. has pounced on the government as being soft on terrorism.

Mr. Singh’s government had lately hit back at the Bharatiya Janata Party with evidence that its supporters, belonging to a range of radical Hindu organizations, had also been implicated in terrorist attacks. Indeed, in a bizarre twist, the head of the police antiterrorism unit, Hemant Karkare, killed in the Mumbai strikes, had been in the midst of a high-profile investigation of a suspected Hindu terrorist cell. Mr. Karkare’s inquiry had netted nine suspects in connection with a bombing in September of a Muslim-majority area in Malegaon, a small town not far from Mumbai.

Several B.J.P. leaders, including Mr. Modi, had criticized the crackdown as a political vendetta. On Friday Mr. Modi, the chief minister of neighboring Gujarat State, announced financial rewards for the families of police officers killed this week in the antiterrorism operations, including Mr. Karkare.

On Friday, Mr. Advani went so far as to say that intelligence agencies had been “diverted to nail so-called Hindu terror,” allowing the gunmen who struck Mumbai to “plot away undetected.”

The political fencing hides more fundamental problems: a feeble, often corrupt criminal justice system, in which suspects, whether of terrorism or common crimes, are regularly killed in skirmishes with law enforcement authorities rather than tried in courts of law. Faith and democracy also complicate the Indian battle against terrorism, as political parties compete for the loyalty of Hindu and Muslim voters.

The B.J.P. has pressed for the resurrection of a tougher antiterrorism law that was in place during its administration. That measure allowed for longer periods of preventive detention and enabled confessions extracted by the police to be used in court. Its critics said it was an unfair and ineffective tool used too often to round up innocent people, largely Muslims, and it was repealed in 2004 by Mr. Singh’s administration.

In a nationally televised address on Thursday, the day after the siege on Mumbai began, Mr. Singh clearly sought to convey that his government was in charge and capable of acting swiftly. He promised to “strengthen the hands of our police and intelligence authorities,” restrict financing to suspect organizations, check the “entry of suspects into the country” and get tough on Pakistan, which the Indian government has accused of providing sanctuary to militants who attack on Indian soil. It was not clear how he would do any of these things, nor whether his words would persuade voters to trust his party with another five-year term.

Friday’s newspapers scolded politicians as failing to act together in the interests of national security. “It is time we stop our political parties from using terror — Hindu or Muslim — to fuel their popularity when they are fueling a fire that can consume India,” read a front-page editorial in The Hindustan Times.

The Indian Express, in its front-page editorial, suggested that “if a tragedy like this cannot make both sides — in fact the entire political class — make amends, we have no right to call ourselves a great nation, democracy, civilization.”

Mr. Yadav’s 2005 public opinion poll on sources of insecurity in India found that terrorism ranked far lower than common crimes and communal riots. Moreover, his studies showed that terrorism resonated far more with urban voters than rural ones.

That is another reason the siege of Mumbai could give Mr. Singh cause for concern. Political redistricting this year has made the urban voter far more important nationally than ever before.

negi · Post by **negi** » 29 Nov 2008 10:22

Calling on all the net savvy jingos , do likes of Chee NN, NYT, BBC have comments/forums section , I think its high time we take the fight to the opposition.

vishal · Post by **vishal** » 29 Nov 2008 10:23

On Times Now: Priyanka Gandhi says had Indira Gandhi been alive the response would have been very different.

R_Kumar · Post by **R_Kumar** » 29 Nov 2008 10:42

She reminds ous that only Gandhi family is capable. We need Sardar Patel type neta.

R_Kumar · Post by **R_Kumar** » 29 Nov 2008 10:50

NRao wrote:FYI:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/29/world ... nted=print

November 29, 2008
Crisis May Shift Political Landscape
By SOMINI SENGUPTA

The appearance of Mr. Modi — who has been barred from entering the United States for violations of religious freedom — signaled how the two-day siege of Mumbai had instantly turned into political ammunition for coming national elections. After a string of attacks across Indian cities earlier this year, Mr. Modi’s party, also known as the B.J.P., pledged to make national security its main campaign issue. This week’s audacious attacks on the country’s commercial capital, and their timing, gave the party an additional boost.

Five state elections are under way, with the city-state of Delhi going to the polls on Saturday. National balloting is expected to be held next spring.

It was only four years ago that the Bharatiya Janata Party, then leading a coalition government, was routed in national elections, partly because of at least two high-profile terrorism episodes during its tenure: a suicide attack on the Indian Parliament building in 2001 and the hijacking of an Indian Airlines plane to Kandahar, Afghanistan, in 1999.

For a while I thought I was reading IBN.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 29 Nov 2008 10:54

On a train in the Philadelphia suburbs today, I noticed a fellow passenger thumbing through one of those free broadsheets they hand out in the mornings at railway stations.

The headline was in roaring 40-point type, impossible to miss:

"Mumbai Terrorists Were HOMEGROWN".

A screaming, definitive assertion broadcast while the attack was still in progress. Not that the attackers were "suspected to be homegrown", nor that they were "believed to be". But that they WERE, in fact, homegrown.

Nobody at that point had idea how many terrorists there were, or if any were confirmed dead, or any in custody, or if any of them had revealed information of any kind to the law enforcement authorities... but somehow, there was already a dead certainty being publicly espoused by a widely popular Western news agency that the terrorists were Homegrown. As in Indian Muslims, not Pakistanis.

Operations still in progress at the Taj and the Oberoi, the Rabbi and his wife still not confirmed dead, but already some section of the US media were furiously, volubly peddling the line that these were not Pakistani terrorists.

This, even while the initial sympathy that characterized CNN's coverage begins to curdle into snidely hyphenating criticism. This, even as "experts" are being trotted out to peddle the spin that Pakistan is being blamed unfairly and that these butchers are righteously aggrieved Indian Muslims who see injustice being perpetrated by Hindoos in Cashmere. Look at the breath-stopping psyops that are ALREADY being deployed in this Time Magazine article about the attacks:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 50,00.html

India Today
In India, Islam is, in contrast, the other — purged by the British, denigrated by the Hindu right, mistrusted by the majority, marginalized by society. There are nearly as many Muslims in India as in all of Pakistan, but in a nation of more than a billion, they are still a minority, with all the burdens that minorities anywhere carry. Government surveys show that Muslims live shorter, poorer and unhealthier lives than Hindus and are often excluded from the better jobs. (As opposed to the flourishing prosperity enjoyed by all Muslims in Pakistan, undoubtedly). To be sure, there are Muslim success stories in the booming economy. Azim Premji, the founder of the outsourcing giant Wipro, is one of the richest individuals in India. But for many Muslims, the inequality of the boom has reinforced their exclusion.

Kashmir, a Muslim-dominated state whose fate had been left undecided in the chaos that led up to partition, remains a suppurating wound in India's Muslim psyche. As the cause of three wars between India and Pakistan — one of which nearly went nuclear in 1999 — Kashmir has become a symbol of profound injustice to Indian Muslims, who believe that their government cares little for Kashmir's claim of independence (read this very carefully: according to this article, it is INDIAN MUSLIMS, not PAKISTAN, who are violently backing the "aspirations of the Kashmiri people to independence." This is a first... and in the coming Barack Hussein Obama onslaught, you can bet this won't be the last time we hear this astonishing snippet of propaganda).— which is based upon a 1948 U.N. resolution promising a plebiscite to determine the Kashmiri people's future. That frustration has spilled into the rest of India in the form of several devastating terrorist attacks that have made Indian Muslims both perpetrators and victims. Note also the oft-repeated Goebbelsian lie that the 1948 Resolution ever allowed for any option that placed "Kashmiri independence" on the table... the plebiscite was a choice between joining either India or Pakistan, and Pakistan sabotaged its conduct by refusing to withdraw its troops from POK as mandated by the UN. The very idea of an independent Kashmir is pure Washingtonian masturbation... a fantasy peddled by Adlai Stevenson, Zbignew Brzezinski and Madeleine Halfbright.

A mounting sense of persecution, fueled by the government's seeming reluctance to address the brutal anti-Muslim riots that killed more than 2,000 in the state of Gujarat in 2002, has aided the cause of homegrown militant groups. They include the banned Student Islamic Movement of India (SIMI), which was accused of detonating nine bombs in Mumbai during the course of 2003, killing close to 80. The 2006 terrorist attacks on the Mumbai commuter-rail system that killed 183 people were also blamed on SIMI as well as the pro-Kashmir Pakistani terrorist group Lashkar-e-Toiba (LeT). Those incidents exposed the all-too-common Hindu belief that Muslims aren't really Indian. "LeT, SIMI — it doesn't matter who was behind these attacks. They are all children of [Pervez] Musharraf," sneered Manish Shah, a Mumbai resident who lost his best friend in the explosions, referring to the then President of Pakistan. (Can you believe this reporter, Aryn Baker? He first ascribes the prerogative of supporting Kashmiri secession to Indian Muslims-- even though it is ONLY Pakistanis who support Kashmiri secession, while even the Deobandis and Shahi Imam Bukhari support Kashmir being part of India. Then, he turns around to say that it is HINDUS who consider "all Muslims as [not] really Indian"... when he himself has just falsely ascribed the most anti-national of motivations to Indian Muslims.)

All these media assaults are coming at us, when our security forces and innocent civilians were still in harm's way. All this before the last shot had even been fired in the worst terrorist massacre Pakistan has ever perpetrated on Indian soil. The US State Department's Paki-absolving rhetoric is already spewing out of every Western orifice at full spate.

All that Dr. Condoleezza Rice achieved in de-hyphenating India and Pakistan over the past 8 years, is being rolled back in the space of 48 hours, over the dead bodies of hundreds of our fellow countrymen. All this at the behest of Obama's foreign-policy swine, and their valiant cohorts in the US media.

The groundwork is being laid for such American psyops, and worse, as we haven't had to face since the Robin Raphael days. We better hope the American economy remains crippled for a good, long time-- long enough for us to seize the initiative in the subcontinent and pre-empt the Kashmir moves they will surely make as soon as they can afford to. Pre-supposing, of course, that we ourselves will find leaders with the wit and the guts to seize the initiative. Sigh.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 29 Nov 2008 10:57

A_Gupta wrote:Shreeman,
What do you think I've been doing all day?

The comment was general, your post happened to be the one I picked to highlight. Plenty of others are sitting on their hands. Still, kudos for doing what should come naturally.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 29 Nov 2008 11:14

Rudradev wrote:On a train in the Philadelphia suburbs today, I noticed a fellow passenger thumbing through one of those free broadsheets they hand out in the mornings at railway stations....

Rudradev, you think the article you quoted was bad. What do you think of this one: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... ional/home

The claim being made here is that while 9/11 represented a genuine clash of civilizations, Mumbai 11/26 is not in the same league. I remember the anguish I felt with the American folks on 9/11 and frankly looking back feel like a huge fool - on a day when the Western world is supposed to reciprocate they are intent on pouring scorn.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Nov 2008 11:18

negi wrote:Calling on all the net savvy jingos , do likes of Chee NN, NYT, BBC have comments/forums section , I think its high time we take the fight to the opposition.

negi sahab, they don't let you.

comments are ferociously moderated at every Indian media sites.

only way is to form our own alternatives and force these into oblivion. It is the Indian ones I care about, foreign ones don't matter.

Malayappan · Post by **Malayappan** » 29 Nov 2008 11:28

We should expect lots and lots of Psy Ops.

Looking at the coverage in western media, the following multiple strands of messages are coming through:

Most Important, Salient, nay - Sole priority is to prevent any kind of attack on Pakistan

The forms the Psyops appears to be taking:

- Appreciation for the Indian Security Forces ('Indians love praise from the Whites')
- Complain about chaos, lack of intelligence, politicians fighting - 'You guys are so divided and disorganised that you cannot fight a war'
- Assure that something will happen in Pakistan and that the civilian regime is best equipped to handle things - 'So lay off, we will find something to keep your crowds happy'
- Talk about Nuclear holocaust - 'You surely don't want to cause so many deaths'
- Belittle the anger as due to Hindu - Muslim rivalry - 'Surely this response is Hindu, and not secular?'
- Rake up History to turn India's gaze inwards - 'Ghazni vs Prithvi'
- Rake up Economics - 'Look at the poverty, first fix that, then fight'
- Rake up sociology - 'Look at the backwardness of Muslims, that surely breeds these types of problems'

Their best case scenario is to manage the emotions and revert to the pre 26th situation asap - Bollywood, People to People, Cricket, Urdu Poetry, Punjabiyat. Part of this is an 'acceptable level of terrorism' within Indian borders that essentially kills Indians'

US and US are working on assumptions and scenarios where they are too closely tied to the Paki establishment. They cannot allow Pakistan to fail even if led by Hafeez Sayeed or Masood Azhar. Not a preferred choice (they prefer Zardari or Kayani types)but I am sure if this happens, US and most certainly UK will bring in all sophistry to push a deal with either of them.

That essentially is folks what we have to deal with!

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 29 Nov 2008 11:39

Rahul M wrote:
negi wrote:Calling on all the net savvy jingos , do likes of Chee NN, NYT, BBC have comments/forums section , I think its high time we take the fight to the opposition.
negi sahab, they don't let you.

comments are ferociously moderated at every Indian media sites.

only way is to form our own alternatives and force these into oblivion. It is the Indian ones I care about, foreign ones don't matter.

Actually comments are moderated, but published at most of the English language media originating outside India. Now, with the internet, we can use the ELM originating outside India to put the local ELM out of business on the internet at least. IMO the foreign ELM does not suffer from the p-sec hangover and has higher standards but lacks cultural and local knowledge. We can help them out with the cultural/local background to stomp on the local p-sec mindset.

A good way to get started is to set google or yahoo alerts to have new articles sent to you. When you get an alert, read the article and post comments.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Nov 2008 11:41

MMS gang is silent.. has he announced ex gratia yet? Modi was first to do so from guj.

forget about that.. i am waiting for his shots against the pigs.. now if he chickens out, i want the one billion zens to be upset with rage!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Nov 2008 11:47

Actually comments are moderated, but published at most of the English language media originating outside India. Now, with the internet, we can use the ELM originating outside India to put the local ELM out of business on the internet at least.

No, you can't. these people would stoop to any depths to push their POV.

comments aren't nearly enough. only an alternate media source can do the job.
some of us on BR are trying to kick-start one.

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 29 Nov 2008 11:51

Has the Indus water flow been shut down yet? Or, overflood the mangla dam.......

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Nov 2008 11:53

Indus water can be infected with pigs.. burn the pigs and in to the indus water. Let them all drink that

Dilbu · Post by **Dilbu** » 29 Nov 2008 12:12

Rahul M wrote:
Actually comments are moderated, but published at most of the English language media originating outside India. Now, with the internet, we can use the ELM originating outside India to put the local ELM out of business on the internet at least.
No, you can't. these people would stoop to any depths to push their POV.

comments aren't nearly enough. only an alternate media source can do the job.
some of us on BR are trying to kick-start one.

I sincerely wish you guys all the best. We desperately need some one sane enough in the media.

vishal · Post by **vishal** » 29 Nov 2008 12:13

All over but the crying?

Combat operations in Mumbai have ceased and funeral pyres are burning across the country. Soldiers, policemen, businessmen, commuters and children, the dead are from every walk of life. The anger will remain for a long time but that should not stop us from prosecuting our response. Those who say no step should be taken in anger deserve to be swept aside for there is no room for traitors who serve as apologists for terrorists and mass murderers. The likes of Barkha Dutt, Rajiv Shukla and Arundhati Roy who become cheerleaders for terrorists everytime Indians are butchered in their own country need to be pushed aside. On too many occasions Indians have been told that an appropriate response will be given to terrorists but that it should not be done in anger. Cool headed actions have served little purpose except to encourage a boatload of men from Pakistan to make Mumbai their Normandy.

So our challenge is two-fold. Not only do we need to respond forcefully but such is our sad reality we need to ensure that the response is acceptable to the traitors who sit in North Block, South Block and in talking shops across the country and beg for invitations to mehfils in Pakistan where they are treated like royalty. Well, it can only be one or the other now.

First things come first. We cannot continue nurturing and feeding the terrorists in Pakistan only so they can come here to kill us. It is time to scrap the Indus Water Treaty and withdraw from the Permanent Indus Commission. What does India get from the IWT anyway? It stops us from using our own water to irrigate our fields while we let that water flow into Pakistan. The IWT prevents India from utilizing the full potential of it’s own waters for generating electricity. Fairness be damned! Not only is India denied the gratitude which is owed to it by Pakistan but it is also dragged into arbitration proceedings when projects of national importance make the Pakistanis sit up and take notice. The wailings of Pakistanis who face dry paddy fields will not make me lose sleep at night. What will keep me awake is that Indian politicians choose to ignore the well being of their fellow citizens while keeping Pakistanis well fed and watered. The flow of water will not stop for a few years while drainage projects are completed but let Pakistan stare down the barrel of famine till then. When the projects are ready, pull the trigger.

The leadership of Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi does not have the steel to retaliate militarily to the invasion of Mumbai. They are only too happy to watch Indians being butchered while avoiding hard decisions. The next best option is to task the Indian Navy with blockading Karachi. Every ship with a Pakistani flag should be boarded and searched. The Indian Navy has more than what is needed to smash the Pakistani Navy should the latter want to get into a shooting match. We don’t have to blow up Karachi harbor all over again but we can choke that country off slowly to the point where Pakistanis realize that attacking India is not a risk-free enterprise anymore. Sure, the Americans will howl and pressure us because Pakistan is the fulcrum on which the success of their war in Afghanistan rests. That’s just too bad for them. Indian blood is not cheaper than American blood and ambitions.

Destruction of LeT facilities and the capture and killing of it’s leadership should be made a top priority. If that means attacking camps in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and running the risk of civilian casualties there, so be it. The Kashmiris of PoK are not Indians. They are Pakistanis and we cannot look at them through a different lens anymore. There is no difference between the LeT and the Pakistan Army. The former is effectively one more regiment of the latter. The destruction of the LeT and those who finance it is non-negotiable. While it might not be feasible to go after every contributor, the large donors should be snatched and made to face trial in India. Either that or they must be killed. Justice should not only be done, it should also be seen to be done.

This is where we must start. Or it’s all over but the crying.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 29 Nov 2008 12:17

Rudradev, as far as I know, in the US media Friday is the day when e.g., the government releases stories it wants buried fast (e.g., such as resignation of an official for misconduct). People aren't paying much attention. What is going to matter is who is on the Sunday talkshows.