Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 30 Nov 2008 12:49

Lalu is better candidate. JMT

disha · Post by **disha** » 30 Nov 2008 12:49

Sudhanshu wrote:
uddu wrote: Send responses to BJP though e-mail and make sure that they don't play politics now. Tell them it's time to strike back and get together for that.
It would be fun to realize that, Mossad after learning the terrorists who killed Israeli citizens, were controlled by people from POK and so, they went after to assassinate them. Really wish that could happen.

The Jewish lobby is huge in US and they do control quite a good chunk of money supply - banking and hollywood being the prime examples. High tech another. The porkis overplayed their hand by targeting CHABAD. There is going to be some payback, overt or covert.

vishal · Post by **vishal** » 30 Nov 2008 12:49

Rajasthan goes to the polls on Thursday. News anchors commenting if nothing is done by then the Congress (I) is looking at a total wipeout there. They are already in the Opposition and might have to vacate every seat they currently hold.

animesharma · Post by **animesharma** » 30 Nov 2008 12:49

IBN: Cong in desperate damage control mode. Delhi election report negative for congress and rajasthan coming up election to be lost as well.

I guess this is congress's motivation

Lalu is better candidate. JMT

why do we need a clown?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Nov 2008 12:51

media is saying PC will be HM and FinMin will directly report to MMS for now.

I have my doubts about PC being a strong HM. its the toughest post in the
world for a country like India and PC != late Patel sir for sure.

he has a habit for seeing everything as a beancounter, born of his finmin
tenures...a HM has to be more strategic in nature and pursue total war on
all fronts even if it means losing a battle or two.

Rahul Shukla · Post by **Rahul Shukla** » 30 Nov 2008 12:52

vishal wrote:Troop build-up being reported on the border. Just this shows we are doing nothing different from last time. No Cold Start, just digging in.

Nope!

If GOI is ordering a troop buildup, then this time there will be blood. That will be followed by a 'draw' where nobody wins or looses and an eventual withdrawl. Good enough to win the next election.

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 30 Nov 2008 12:53

Ramana - Taking politics out, NSA is a competent candidate i believe, one of the silver linings in the present administration.

SandeepA · Post by **SandeepA** » 30 Nov 2008 12:54

animesharma wrote:IBN: Cong in desperate damage control mode. Delhi election report negative for congress and rajasthan coming up election to be lost as well.

I guess this is congress's motivation

Lalu is better candidate. JMT
why do we need a clown?

Laloo is a egotist. A couple of challenges to his ego and he will take it personally and respond. Any response is better than no response.

adityaS · Post by **adityaS** » 30 Nov 2008 12:55

From Israeli newspaper Haaretz:

The Pakistani government has asked to be involved in the investigation into the incident, offering to send its highest level spy chief to India, but later rescinded the offer, apparently due to Indian objections, and decided to send lower level investigators instead.

Why don't we have any better PROs to counter such spin?

vishal · Post by **vishal** » 30 Nov 2008 12:55

Singha wrote:NSA might also have to go. This would be a shame.

as far as I understand from some posters here, he is another useless fellow.
do you know if he is a worthwhile guy or more of a madam's courtier?

Someone I know, trust and know not to be a bleeding heart has access to the NSA. He has told me on earlier occassions that the NSA is a good man surrounded by people who refuse to act on threat assessments, inputs and advise.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 30 Nov 2008 12:55

animesharma wrote:IBN: Cong in desperate damage control mode. Delhi election report negative for congress and rajasthan coming up election to be lost as well.

I guess this is congress's motivation

Lalu is better candidate. JMT
why do we need a clown?

Clown he may be but he knows how to manage bureaucracy and get result.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Nov 2008 12:56

Doesn't matter even a chaprasi is more reliable as PM right now for the seat confers powers that the occupant acquires. MMS never did act as PM and never will. He has to go. I am serious. He has failed the nation and has to go.

Lalu doesn't have the numbers. it has to be someone form Congress like Pranab who has experience and has shown better judgment by not meeting the Pak FM while MMS gave the impression that he is still welcome.

There are a lot of others who can fill the shoes. He is not indispensable.

No MKN has been at the helm when terrorist strikes spread all across the country. He is a bigger failure than MMS for he was a policeman and former head of IB yet the problems multiplied.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 30 Nov 2008 12:57

Rahul Shukla wrote:
vishal wrote:Troop build-up being reported on the border. Just this shows we are doing nothing different from last time. No Cold Start, just digging in.
Nope!

If GOI is ordering a troop buildup, then this time there will be blood. That will be followed by a 'draw' where nobody wins or looses and an eventual withdrawl. Good enough to win the next election.

Hardly. Congress is drawing too much attention with these changes and their failure is being highlighted even more.

ravar · Post by **ravar** » 30 Nov 2008 12:57

Sorry if this was discussed earlier-

As per NSG Commando Rajbir Singh Lamba (quote from the other BR thread on NSG and MARCOS), he and Major Unnikrishnan's ops was hampered by the lack of maps of the hotel.

Taj Hotel for being what it is, is a complicated maze of rooms, lobbies, aisles etc etc and is very difficult to find one's way through (quote Rajiv Srinivasan- NDTV)

Now, Ratan Tata says that there was a specific warning given to Taj on security threat earlier itself.

In which case, why couldn't anyone provide the maps of the building?

This should have been kept ready, isn't it? Even otherwise as default, the fire dept vets the safety aspects of buildings (old and new) and issues safety certificates and the building designs and maps and stored in the database for future exigencies, right?

Why couldn't anyone provide the damn maps? That would have saved many precious lives...

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 30 Nov 2008 12:58

Infact I would want a complete explanation from the present govt set up, as any actions like
1. troup movement
2. resignations
3. any other empty bravado coming out of them

is very suspect in the face of coming elections. I do not want to waste Army's time or my time for nothing. Media if not opposition should demand this from the present set up.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 30 Nov 2008 12:59

Absoltely my thoughts too. We should lead Pakistan into this war exactly as IG did. We should do everything to make that happen and quickly too.

Test their "resilience" and "restraint" like they have been testing ours. Bomb ISI headquarters along other key terror training targets and then let them decide which direction their so-called idiotic "resilience" and "restraint" takes them.

SandeepA · Post by **SandeepA** » 30 Nov 2008 13:01

I read a couple of reports about hostages being tortured and killed. It must be given highest publicity to get the indifferent middle-class outraged. I see this is still lacking. Also any report the piglets misbehaved with female hostages as is their wont?

disha · Post by **disha** » 30 Nov 2008 13:01

Singha wrote:forcing pakis to pull 100k troops back into Pak may be a good thing.

reason being with the PA gone, the remaining Govt, FC and tribal levies will be massacred in short order and the black flag will fly firmly over peshawar and quetta as the talibs expand strongly to the bank of Indus @ attock.

after two months end the deployment and watch the fun as Unkil and Pakis chase each others tails trying to regain control again of areas they had controlled earlier.

a withdrawal of PA from western border will effectively seal the fission process of the pashtun lands.

it will also bleed them economically and deplete their petroleum reserve
to the extent they might have to use horse and ox carts to move the PA
around.

I think the PA was being an impediment on the western sector for the US and *it* is in US interests to see them go. It will open up the Pakistani western borders for more deeper and better thrusts from the US and I will not be surprised if the quid pro quid is for India to thrust into Pakistani eastern borders. Is this a jingo's wet dream or what?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Nov 2008 13:02

building designs and maps and stored in the database for future exigencies, right?

new buildings file their plans with local govt to obtain permits. but I doubt
anyone has the plans from 105 yrs ago.

the fire brigade here probably just checks the safety aspect and leaves.

we must surely begin a immediate effort to map out all important buildings
including govt ones and identify vulnerable spots too. dont want a freakin
worm crawling through some forgotten window into BSE or RBI do we?

Malayappan · Post by **Malayappan** » 30 Nov 2008 13:03

PC is bad news.

He is quite a wimp. TV chattering classes get impressed by his English but he has little else to offer for THIS job.

Does anyone remember his speech in Lok Sabha in 1998 after the nuclear tests berating the Government for keeping the China factor in mind? Also remember his quiet acquiescing to the Americans in ASEAN Regional Forum which he attended during Deve Gowda / Gujral time, to sacrifice our interests in Burma. The Yanks sold it to him as commitment to Democracy and he fell for it. Sorry, he is simply dumb on these matters. He has his degrees and is definitely a competent lawyer. MoS for Commerce even with independent charge, yes. But HM in these difficult times? Bad news!

skm · Post by **skm** » 30 Nov 2008 13:05

uddu wrote:Another thing is we must stop listening to U.S or Israel about our response. It's our war and others must keep out of it.

Very true. Nations don't have friends, only interests. We can't outsource our interests to be taken care of by somebody else.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 30 Nov 2008 13:06

>>MKN was National Insecurity Adviser. Why do you think its shame for him to go? That scoundrel was bag carrier for DIEnasty.

Guaranteed that this happened under his watch. For that he is in some measure responsible. But everybody is. Note the warnings were passed down, and pretty specific ones - but lets not get into that.

However, there are few who have better knowledge of the problem, and have articulated it as strongly as MKN. Name one NSA who has made the strong statements against Pakistan that MKN has. ONE. Let me take that further and say name any government employee (non military) of even two levels lowr than him.

At the end, he is an appointee. There is a limit to what he can do. He can resign, but how will that help? There are few who could have held the fort better than him after Brajesh.

There are personal allegations being made against MKN that may or may not have any bearing on the actuality of the man. I don't know what the sources are for such information. I urge members not to lose their sense of balance.

There is nothing he can say now that has not been said before, and nothing that will not be extremely inflammatory. I am sure he is boiling inside as much as many of us at BR are.

But he may have to be sacrificed nevertheless. And yes, it would be a shame.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Nov 2008 13:07

Pranabda should have been moved into HM and the junior defence minister promoted to DefMin with a dotted line reporting structure into Pranabda.

he is probably the only one with some teeth in this cabinet and smart enough.

vishal · Post by **vishal** » 30 Nov 2008 13:08

Serpent Patil said he quit because he took moral responsibility for the invasion. What, he didn't feel responsible for the other people who died on his watch? Anyway, I am just happy he is gone.

arun · Post by **arun** » 30 Nov 2008 13:08

Excerpt X Posted.

Pakistani Navy connection to the Mumbai Terrorist attack.

If true this goes well beyond External affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee’s characterisation that “some elements in Pakistan are responsible for the Mumbai terror attacks.”:

We were trained by Pak navy: Captured terrorist

Aaj Tak Bureau
New Delhi, November 29, 2008

Azam Amir, the terrorist who was held by the Mumbai Police, has made some striking revelations regarding the Mumbai terror attacks.

Azam has disclosed that the Pakistan Navy had trained the terrorists in boating and swimming to carry out the attacks in Mumbai. Azam was arrested on Wednesday from Girgaum Chowpatty in an encounter with the police. Ismail Khan, an accomplice of Amir, reportedly died in the gunbattle. ................

India Today

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 30 Nov 2008 13:08

disha wrote:
Singha wrote:forcing pakis to pull 100k troops back into Pak may be a good thing.

reason being with the PA gone, the remaining Govt, FC and tribal levies will be massacred in short order and the black flag will fly firmly over peshawar and quetta as the talibs expand strongly to the bank of Indus @ attock.

after two months end the deployment and watch the fun as Unkil and Pakis chase each others tails trying to regain control again of areas they had controlled earlier.

a withdrawal of PA from western border will effectively seal the fission process of the pashtun lands.

it will also bleed them economically and deplete their petroleum reserve
to the extent they might have to use horse and ox carts to move the PA
around.
I think the PA was being an impediment on the western sector for the US and *it* is in US interests to see them go. It will open up the Pakistani western borders for more deeper and better thrusts from the US and I will not be surprised if the quid pro quid is for India to thrust into Pakistani eastern borders. Is this a jingo's wet dream or what?

If things were not so bad on the economic front in the US, moving some troops from Iraq to Afghanistan and then sweeping into NWFP might be Bush' swan-song. Right not he is a lame-duck. I am not sure Obama will want to start with a bang like this. But I am sure a lot of American troops would be happy to see the back of the TSP Army. Less to worry about.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Nov 2008 13:09

SandeepA wrote:I read a couple of reports about hostages being tortured and killed. It must be given highest publicity to get the indifferent middle-class outraged. I see this is still lacking. Also any report the piglets misbehaved with female hostages as is their wont?

Ind Express has the report onthe rabbi's killing. Apparently there are pictures too.

Rabbi's body found with legs tied

satya · Post by **satya** » 30 Nov 2008 13:09

New MHA will be from Congress , its too imp. ministry to be given to non-congress party . In all its a window dressing, too short time & lack of strategy will make sure new MHA won't be able to make much of an impression in real terms. Even now our approach is more reactive , take for instance the issues that are being discussed as priority : new federal investigative agency that will investigate only after another terror incident has happened , why not bring in the present capabilities of IB for intel & NSG's in investigation , only missing link is that of good prosecutors & special anti -terror courts . Why GoI is not allowing the IB to lead as b4 in pre-emptive strike against terror cells on Indian Soil something that was regular under ABV , Mr Ajit Doval was very clear about absence of political will , human resources & infrastructure are already there in place !
Intel agencies are not doing that badly as being made out in the media , there was some discussion where Mr Arun Shourie rated our intel agencies at 6-7 on a scale of 10 , biggest problem was use of intel agencies for political purposes something both Shourie & Doval mentioned in separate discussions .

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 30 Nov 2008 13:14

MKN responsibilty does not end by passing intelligence, he is to take it to the whole 9 yards. He is not an field operative to gathet intelligence and pass on. He has to take the cabinet and the GOI team with him to act or else he should have resigned if he had the balls to say "I know my job, and If you dont do it the way I am suggesting based on inputs, I am gone".

But then he is the one was he not, who said We did not have lawyers on our team. Going up the ladder by chamchagiri is the bane.. sorry I have to be cruel only to be kind.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 30 Nov 2008 13:16

Remember PC is the fellow who refused to take the oath of office with a Gita under his hand claiming it was non-secular. I wouldn't place too much hope in him. Given his past performance in left front government, his record is mixed, but gets the benefit of the doubt since he took over during good (financial) times after the NDA government.

This is one of those times where it would be preferable to have a government cabinet randomly selected from a Delhi phone book over "selected" individuals with prestigious doctoral degrees in economics and finance from world renowned universities.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 30 Nov 2008 13:17

Looks like Congress its doing all it can to win the elections. Karma has caught up with them. Letting in BDs and foot-licking of Muslims could have worked but now they have this monster staring down on them.

Here is what I feel:

- Congress will pretend to act with troop movement and wait until this thing subsides
- Resignations galore to show that the NDA govt did not do the same after Par'mnt attacks
- Hogging the media with news about strengthening this and improving that!
- Full scale PR initiative.

Sadly,(or rather happily for me) , people have been pushed over the edge.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 30 Nov 2008 13:19

Time to secure the cities with PAD's and AAD's. No time left. Also the IAF will have an additional duty of finding Pak missiles and taking them out. This will be an additional responsibility above their main responsibility of taking out Pak airbases. The airbase destroying role can done by the Indian Army as well using the Brahmos. This can be an area of cooperation that will require less raids by aircrafts against Pak airbases. The IN can also play a role in this.

skm · Post by **skm** » 30 Nov 2008 13:19

Malayappan wrote:PC is bad news.

He is quite a wimp. TV chattering classes get impressed by his English but he has little else to offer for THIS job.

IMHO, PC has been selected for just that - a clear articulation of what's being done, what evidence has been found & to share info (selectively). Shivraj Patil speaks in some strange cowbelt language, and listening to MMS is like watching apocalypse (even a desi like me needs subtitles). Not expecting any fireworks here.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 30 Nov 2008 13:20

i dont know how credible are reports of indian troop movements.. if true this is total nonsense.... do we have the capability ... ? i believe that first a capability has to be built ( which sadly has not been built..see the sad state of def procurement, shortage of officers etc.... etc... ) coupled with political will ...and only then something should be attempted... how we prepared for 1971 war will be point of reference..... we did not go knee jerk into it..

RayC will be the competent person to comment on this issue.
do we want to do reverse kargil without thinking through .... first we need to set our house in order...

indian govt should tell zardari/gilani that paki govt may not be involved but Pak army is involved since pak army is above pak govt... since paki army does not obey Pak govt. Why cant pak pm order some army officer to go anywhere.. and i hope we refuse the ISI clerk coming to india..

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 30 Nov 2008 13:21

I don't think that congress will play politics with this. If they do they will be eliminated from the political map of India for ever. And also the Congress is not anti-India to that extent.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Nov 2008 13:22

Looks like political pundits are predicting what we are saying.

http://politicsparty.com/

adityaS · Post by **adityaS** » 30 Nov 2008 13:23

Unofficial, but interesting take by Gary Brecher

Don't agree with his viewpoint, but some of the comments are interesting.

jmaxwell · Post by **jmaxwell** » 30 Nov 2008 13:23

Mort Walker wrote:Remember PC is the fellow who refused to take the oath of office with a Gita under his hand claiming it was non-secular. I wouldn't place too much hope in him.

a non sequitur if i ever saw one

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 30 Nov 2008 13:24

manjgu wrote:i dont know how credible are reports of indian troop movements.. if true this is total nonsense.... do we have the capability ... ? i believe that first a capability has to be built ( which sadly has not been built..see the sad state of def procurement, shortage of officers etc.... etc... ) coupled with political will ...and only then something should be attempted... how we prepared for 1971 war will be point of reference..... we did not go knee jerk into it..

RayC will be the competent person to comment on this issue.
do we want to do reverse kargil without thinking through .... first we need to set our house in order...

indian govt should tell zardari/gilani that paki govt may not be involved but Pak army is involved since pak army is above pak govt... since paki army does not obey Pak govt. Why cant pak pm order some army officer to go anywhere.. and i hope we refuse the ISI clerk coming to india..

Pakis don't have that capability as well. It's well within our capability to destroy Pakistan. This is the war that will save India and the world from Islamic terrorism. We are going to take out the main base of Islamic terror.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 30 Nov 2008 13:24

disha wrote: The Jewish lobby is huge in US and they do control quite a good chunk of money supply - banking and hollywood being the prime examples. High tech another. The porkis overplayed their hand by targeting CHABAD. There is going to be some payback, overt or covert.

No one can clean our mess. I hope it caused more outrage for us Indians to fund and take some visible action against Pakis.

Expecting Chacha to help us makes us no better than Pakis (I shudder to think about comparison)