i dont know how credible are reports of indian troop movements.. if true this is total nonsense.... do we have the capability ... ? i believe that first a capability has to be built ( which sadly has not been built..see the sad state of def procurement, shortage of officers etc.... etc... ) coupled with political will ...and only then something should be attempted... how we prepared for 1971 war will be point of reference..... we did not go knee jerk into it..
All military colleges do gameing by this time multiple plans must exist, if not then we are even more doomed.
The time for analysis was yesterday, action today,
Start with pin pricks here and there let them face the music....
Damit we dont even have MiG-25w to buzz all over Islamabad, Karachi La whore....
If not fury at least break sound barrier by a big fart.....
Mort Walker wrote:Remember PC is the fellow who refused to take the oath of office with a Gita under his hand claiming it was non-secular. I wouldn't place too much hope in him.
Although I despise him as much as anyone else, I support his right and liberty to not take oath on the Gita. Keep the god d*mn religion out of the government.
uddu wrote:I don't think that congress will play politics with this. If they do they will be eliminated from the political map of India for ever. And also the Congress is not anti-India to that extent.
That is what is more likely to happen. Kangress of today plays politics by default and it will lead to a total rout in MP, Chattisgarh, Mizoram, Delhi and Rajasthan.
PC is seen as media savvy and the skeptic in me thinks they are resigned to allowing more attacks and only want a better pr man than patil to work the media after each attack.
Manmohan Singhji did try to get the ISI chief to India and ask him to hand over the terrorists to India. Pakistan refused. Now there is no hope of peace since they had already rejected that and stood for terrorism. Again if they want to send someone ask for the Pak Army chief along with the ISI chief. Ask them to hand over the terrorists within 24 hours. It's the responsibility of Pakistan to hand over the terrorists within 24 hours. If not India will respond. Then Cold start ....
well,
i just read each and every replies to the facebook page of Commando Unni. (link to which was posted on the GeorgeJ's Marcos and NSG pictures only forum).
In spite of some Hindi mistakes from the author, the following truly conveyed my own feelings.
hey sandeep...yaaar tere jaise jawaan ko mera jabardast salaam. words nahi hain mere paas tumhare bravery ka taarif karne ke liye...kaash main bhi desh ke liye kuch kar sakta....mere andar wo bhaavana aa chuki hai...ab saalon terrorists logon ka satyanaash jald hoga........
Pukis are using the ploy of pulling back from afghan border & deploying to Indian border to pressurize US. India should make public its list of demands (handover Dawood Ibrahim/Mullah Omar/Salahuddin/etc, shutdown piglet camps, ..). When current unkil & unkil-elect come calling, tell them clearly the solution is easy: just bear on pakis to comply with list, and there won't be any mobilization by India.
If we can use dumb excuses (local abduls' hurt feelings) to not send troops to Iraq, we have better & real reasons now to not listen to unkil. But short of conducting a rapid, above-the-ground CERN experiment in pakiland, there will never be any lasting solution.
Mort Walker wrote:Remember PC is the fellow who refused to take the oath of office with a Gita under his hand claiming it was non-secular. I wouldn't place too much hope in him.
Although I despise him as much as anyone else, I support his right and liberty to not take oath on the Gita. Keep the god d*mn religion out of the government.
Off topic: Governments are made of people and people are guided by ethics which is founded in religious faith. If a government minister is Christian, he swears-in with a Bible, Muslim - a Koran, Jew - a Torah, Hindu - a Gita, and so on...At the end of the day, it is your personal faith which guides you on taking a correct decision.
new buildings file their plans with local govt to obtain permits. but I doubt anyone has the plans from 105 yrs ago
But, I find it ridiculous and hard to believe that a 5-star hotel ran its ops without a working map of its property, i.e., if it didn't have one!! Couldn't they have drafted afresh had it been lost!! That too a Tata enterprise and most importantly since they were aware of a security threat to their property!!! Shows the entire response in very bad light!!!
The proverbial 'right hand didn't know what the left was doing' story!! As you mentioned, we require centralised and co-ordinated response right from proactive planning to execution.
At the all-party meeting on Sunday, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh [Images] is expected to brief other political leaders on his government's plans to put the Indian Army [Images] on high alert and deploy more forces along the Line of Control [Images], which separates India and Pakistan in Kashmir.
The government also plans to immediately discontinue air and rail links with Pakistan.
After the December 13, 2001 attack on the Indian parliament, the Atal Bihari Vajpayee government had deployed hundreds of thousand of soldiers on the border with Pakistan. Operation Parakram -- which cost the government Rs 6,500 crore -- led to a tense military stand-off with Pakistan, which raised the spectre of a nuclear conflict, but ended in the Pakistani promise that it would end support to India-based terrorism on its territory.
The Vajpayee government also cut air and rail links to Pakistan, which was only restored years later.
signal seems clear for NSA too. what good is a NSA who doesnt get invited to a highest level security meet?
India Today:
PM snubs Shivraj Patil and Narayanan
Aman Sharma
New Delhi, November 30, 2008
Prime Minister Manmohan Singh rebuffed Home Minister Shivraj Patil and National Security Adviser M. K. Narayanan on Saturday by not inviting them to an emergency meeting on the Mumbai terror attack. The meeting discussed lapses in internal security, even as various security agencies pointed fingers at each other for letting the terrorists through.
The security tsars of the country, including Defence Minister A. K. Antony, Navy chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta, Air Force chief Homi Major and Army vice-chief Lt Gen M. L. Naidu met at Manmohan's residence in the morning. They were joined by Intelligence Bureau director P. C. Haldar, Coast Guard director-general Admiral R. F. Contractor, Defence Secretary Vijay Singh and Home Secretary Madhukar Gupta.
During the two-and-a-half-hour meeting, a livid Prime Minister asked for a detailed report on how the terrorists could hoodwink them all to enter Mumbai through the sea route on Wednesday night. Manmohan had also refused to meet Narayanan on Thursday morning after terrorists had entered Mumbai. But Home Ministry officials said he spoke to Patil before the meeting at his residence on Saturday.
Earlier on Saturday, Patil also called a meeting at his residence, attended by the chiefs of of the Navy, the Coast Guard and IB as well as Home Ministry's special secretary M. L. Kumawat.
One of the proposals at these meetings was to set up a 'unified command' for coastal states to improve coordination between various agencies. "It was suggested that the Navy, the Coast Guard and state police function under a unified command so that coastal security becomes tighter," a senior official at the Prime Minister's Office said.
But even as they discussed how such attacks can be prevented in future, the various security agencies and government departments kept apportioning the blame on each other for the faults in dealing with the three-day mayhem. On Wednesday night, Cafe Leopold was attacked around 9.15 pm while both Taj and Trident hotels were targeted at 9.35 pm. Yet, the National Security Guard (NSG) received the order to rush to Mumbai well after midnight. This happened because the state government had to formally inform the Centre it was unable to handle the crisis and request for the NSG. This took more than three hours-- presuming the request was sent at all.
Even though news outlets were reporting the attack within half an hour, the Union Home Ministry also failed to react on its own and seek a status report from the state government in time. The Home Ministry claims it had informed the Coast Guard on November 19 that terrorists could use the sea route to mount an attack. But it does not explain what follow-up action it took itself on the information. It has also not clarified what action it took after the Prime Minister said in May that a federal investigation agency was needed to counter terrorism. The suspected movement of terrorists from the Pakistan coast towards India on board the merchant vessel MV Alpha, and then their alleged hijacking of the fishing trawler Kuber also went unnoticed by the Coast Guard as well as the Navy.
The six-hour delay in shuttling 200 NSG commandos from Delhi to Mumbai - caused by the absence of their dedicated airplane in Delhi and later by the lack of buses to transport them from Mumbai airport to the buildings taken over by the terrorists - is another mystery no one is trying to explain.
No country is going to come around to our point of view unless they view hard action by India as inevitable. If they US is faced with the prospect of absolute destruction of the Puki Army, the anvil to their hammer, they will not feel too bad about entering FATA to clean up that particular mess. It is time to do what is right by us and present the world with a fait accompli. Interesting things should happen after that.
Last edited by vishal on 30 Nov 2008 13:35, edited 1 time in total.
uddu wrote:Manmohan Singhji did try to get the ISI chief to India and ask him to hand over the terrorists to India. Pakistan refused. Now there is no hope of peace since they had already rejected that and stood for terrorism. Again if they want to send someone ask for the Pak Army chief along with the ISI chief. Ask them to hand over the terrorists within 24 hours. It's the responsibility of Pakistan to hand over the terrorists within 24 hours. If not India will respond. Then Cold start ....
Uddu, the Congress has mastered the art of media management, as is evident. Focus is completely on N.Delhi now
Mort Walker wrote:
That is what is more likely to happen. Kangress of today plays politics by default and it will lead to a total rout in MP, Chattisgarh, Mizoram, Delhi and Rajasthan
Far too little , far too late. People have been pushed over the edge!
skm wrote:Pukis are using the ploy of pulling back from afghan border & deploying to Indian border to pressurize US. India should make public its list of demands (handover Dawood Ibrahim/Mullah Omar/Salahuddin/etc, shutdown piglet camps, ..). When current unkil & unkil-elect come calling, tell them clearly the solution is easy: just bear on pakis to comply with list, and there won't be any mobilization by India.
If we can use dumb excuses (local abduls' hurt feelings) to not send troops to Iraq, we have better & real reasons now to not listen to unkil. But short of conducting a rapid, above-the-ground CERN experiment in pakiland, there will never be any lasting solution.
Uh...this was done in 2001/02 and TSP responded back with their own list that was prepostorous. The list must be given to unkil, who will use their good offices with TSP, to turn over key suspects.
well as you know we Yindus are poor at documenting and putting in place a process which a well trained but not too bright guy can follow - a art in which the west excels.
so it could be the Taj and many other places depend on verbal and "tribal" knowledge that is passed on the job from person to person. could be some
employees have worked there for decades. it always depends on finding the
right guy rather than reaching out for the manual.
some of you in IT industry will know this phenomenon quite well - nothing happens until you cellphone the rosetta stone guy.
disha wrote:
The Jewish lobby is huge in US and they do control quite a good chunk of money supply - banking and hollywood being the prime examples. High tech another. The porkis overplayed their hand by targeting CHABAD. There is going to be some payback, overt or covert.
No one can clean our mess. I hope it caused more outrage for us Indians to fund and take some visible action against Pakis.
even there was a quote in media one or two days ago. it said "world can't help india, if it can't help it self".
skm wrote:Pukis are using the ploy of pulling back from afghan border & deploying to Indian border to pressurize US. India should make public its list of demands (handover Dawood Ibrahim/Mullah Omar/Salahuddin/etc, shutdown piglet camps, ..). When current unkil & unkil-elect come calling, tell them clearly the solution is easy: just bear on pakis to comply with list, and there won't be any mobilization by India.
If we can use dumb excuses (local abduls' hurt feelings) to not send troops to Iraq, we have better & real reasons now to not listen to unkil. But short of conducting a rapid, above-the-ground CERN experiment in pakiland, there will never be any lasting solution.
Easy for Unkil as well. Raid FATA and get Mullahs in truck loads to Guantanamo. If they get the head Mullah Usama that much better.
MKN never inspired confidence as far as I am concerned. To me he looked more concerned with showing reverence to the powers that gave him the position resurrecting him from his retirement.
I am still wondering why a government that did almost nothing successfully in the last four years is still holding to its live when it should have collapsed. By forcing out the HM, the MMS-Sonia-Rahul triumvirate is attemting to cushion the public outrage.
I think the public should demand the ouster of the entire cabinet particularly Sonia, MMS and Rahul. Also, I would not trust the man who wanted to impose tax on your ATM transactions.
This terror incident is leadership failure of epic proportion. It is a failure of governance both at the federal and state level.
Also, if Dawood gang is known to be involved in diesel smuggling, how come nobody tried to put an end to this enterprise? Is it because the diesel being sent to Pak-Is-satan actually was bringing in loads of money to many sections of people in power?
The government mishandled the aquisition of fighter planes and slowed the expansion ot the navy. Now when these assets are in dire need, Indians are left feeling screwed. Mobilization of troops along the IB and LOC aint gonna achieve anything. You guys cannot allow the triumvirate to sacrifice a few thousand soldiers' lives to save their political future.
skm wrote:Pukis are using the ploy of pulling back from afghan border & deploying to Indian border to pressurize US. India should make public its list of demands (handover Dawood Ibrahim/Mullah Omar/Salahuddin/etc, shutdown piglet camps, ..). When current unkil & unkil-elect come calling, tell them clearly the solution is easy: just bear on pakis to comply with list, and there won't be any mobilization by India.
If we can use dumb excuses (local abduls' hurt feelings) to not send troops to Iraq, we have better & real reasons now to not listen to unkil. But short of conducting a rapid, above-the-ground CERN experiment in pakiland, there will never be any lasting solution.
Uh...this was done in 2001/02 and TSP responded back with their own list that was prepostorous. The list must be given to unkil, who will use their good offices with TSP, to turn over key suspects.
Mort, I am not expecting unkil to do our bidding or help us in any way; most Indians are emotionally charged for the past 4 days and are thinking about the next 6 months. Unkil thinks about the next 250 years and plans at least for 150 years. The Indian govt has to clean its own a$$, just like I do with mine.
I'm just saying that babudom better start preparing a list of reasons as to why unkil's request will be considered extremely unreasonable.
In that interview with Karan Thapar, Zardari said that there was a miscommunication somewhere because they had agreed with MMS on sending only a Director of the ISI and not the Director General. This is the usual Pakiness. When MMS would have referred to the Director of ISI (assuming he indeed said so because he would have demanded something like 'send your ISI chief' or something similar if at all), he would certainly not have meant a low-level Grade-16 officer in the Pakistani intelligence setup. The Pakis are inveterate liars.
A similar thing happened in the BBC panel discussion when the Paki journalist said there was Faridkot only in the Indian Punjab and in their eagerness to blame Pakistan, they did not fabricate their story properly leaving gaping holes.
skm wrote:Pukis are using the ploy of pulling back from afghan border & deploying to Indian border to pressurize US. India should make public its list of demands (handover Dawood Ibrahim/Mullah Omar/Salahuddin/etc, shutdown piglet camps, ..). When current unkil & unkil-elect come calling, tell them clearly the solution is easy: just bear on pakis to comply with list, and there won't be any mobilization by India.
If we can use dumb excuses (local abduls' hurt feelings) to not send troops to Iraq, we have better & real reasons now to not listen to unkil. But short of conducting a rapid, above-the-ground CERN experiment in pakiland, there will never be any lasting solution.
Easy for Unkil as well. Raid FATA and get Mullahs in truck loads to Guantanamo. If they get the head Mullah Usama that much better.
Once unkil-elect takes over, the world will see a carter-esque, bleeding-heart-liberal face of USA. They will shutdown GITMO, have a power-sharing agreement with Taliban, give the Mullahs Citibank cards (now owned by US govt) and sell them GM SUVs. Forcing unkil's hand into a deeper engagement in Afghanistan (before Bush leaves office) is better for India in the longer-term.
One more reason to mobilize, get the same action from pakis & engage unkil deeper in Afghanistan. If Taliban sense a weakness from unkil, they would not share power, but be inclined to grab power (genetic characteristic of abduls).
If unkil leaves Afghanistan in a hurry, 99% of piglets have only one target that is readily accessible: India.
Last edited by skm on 30 Nov 2008 13:56, edited 1 time in total.
Jaitley, on Headlines Today.
Taking issue with Media for bringing in Page 3 celebrities to talk about terror response.
Collectively the govt was soft on Terror.
Even though we had attacks during NDA regime, no one accused BJP of being soft on Terror
His demands
- Bring back POTA
- Hang Afzal Guru
- Revamp Intel ops
disha wrote:
The Jewish lobby is huge in US and they do control quite a good chunk of money supply - banking and hollywood being the prime examples. High tech another. The porkis overplayed their hand by targeting CHABAD. There is going to be some payback, overt or covert.
No one can clean our mess. I hope it caused more outrage for us Indians to fund and take some visible action against Pakis.
Expecting Chacha to help us makes us no better than Pakis (I shudder to think about comparison)
I am not saying Chacha or Mama will help. More likely the case will be they may not interfere whole heartedly.
Nayak wrote:* Ceasefire could be called off
* Troops along LOC to be multiplied and escalation of troops in Yellow Sea and IB. Informal orders being given right now.
* Train services could be suspended
* Composite dialogue will not happen
* Govt looking at the model of Parakram.
* Border could be mined.
heard pakis love paan exported from india
we can add melamine to that and burst
a couple of thousand kidneys, and blame
it on the chinese....
seriously though, forget train service, forget border mining,
sink a couple of paki ships with brahmos and sit back
and enjoy the paan
milindc wrote:Jaitley, on Headlines Today.
Taking issue with Media for bringing in Page 3 celebrities to talk about terror response.
Collectively the govt was soft on Terror.
Even though we had attacks during NDA regime, no one accused BJP of being soft on Terror
His demands
- Bring back POTA
- Hang Afzal Guru
- Revamp Intel ops
Thats the biggest advantage with BJP. their policy may be wrong, but the NDA was not impotent.
UPA is a collection of idiots who have agreed to not to agree on anything. For almost 5 years, they overshadowed opposition with their own internal controversies. it was a mistake to vote congress in to power. I hope that won't happen again.
animesharma wrote:IBN: Cong in desperate damage control mode. Delhi election report negative for congress and rajasthan coming up election to be lost as well.
I guess this is congress's motivation
Lalu is better candidate. JMT
why do we need a clown?
Looking at what he did in railway....It looks like he is a better choice than other clowns. He has guts to take actions.
Looking at what he did in railway....It looks like he is a better choice than other clowns. He has guts to take actions.
I happen to be from bihar. and unfortunately i can't judge him just from the success of Railway.
but you may be correct. better a clown then another dog.
Ujjal wrote:
Although I despise him as much as anyone else, I support his right and liberty to not take oath on the Gita. Keep the god d*mn religion out of the government.
Off topic: Governments are made of people and people are guided by ethics which is founded in religious faith. If a government minister is Christian, he swears-in with a Bible, Muslim - a Koran, Jew - a Torah, Hindu - a Gita, and so on...At the end of the day, it is your personal faith which guides you on taking a correct decision.
He took oath on the Indian Constitution, nothing wrong in that. IMO people should preferably take the oath on their national constitution or other emblems, it means that they put their county ahead of their religion, which can only be a good thing.
Nayak wrote:* Ceasefire could be called off
* Troops along LOC to be multiplied and escalation of troops in Yellow Sea and IB. Informal orders being given right now.
* Train services could be suspended
* Composite dialogue will not happen
* Govt looking at the model of Parakram.
* Border could be mined.
heard pakis love paan exported from india
we can add melamine to that and burst
a couple of thousand kidneys, and blame
it on the chinese....
seriously though, forget train service, forget border mining,
sink a couple of paki ships with brahmos and sit back
and enjoy the paan
Thats what I have been saying. Put up a naval blockade, sink couple of ships. It is lot more effective in dealing with this crisis. "Its about economy stupid". Do not do what US did. Bombing and sending troops put unnecessary burden on the economy and society. Lets put the ball in their court by chocking them economically, where by they are forced to take drastic action.
Its well within our capabilities to do so and will in a way prevent them from escalating the blockade into a full naval war, though they could escalate in other ways.
Its well within our capabilities to do so and will in a way prevent them from escalating the blockade into a full naval war, though they could escalate in other ways.
That should be a given. Aggressive patrolling by Navy and Coastguard. Anything coming 5 miles out of Pakistani coast should seek permission from Indian ships. If they fail to do so and are spotted sink them. No questions asked. Plus bomb the ISI headquarters.
I am watching a re-run on CNBC where a lot of CEO's are being hosted by Shirin Bahn, Everyone of those people in that group is blasting the Gov of Mah and the Union Govt. It seems that the Bombay Chamber of Commerce had given a concrete plan to chief Cab Sec in Mah with Funding listed to get people in the Govt of Mah trained in Disaster Mgmt the Govt rejected indicated they had all the resources and the training required.
JERUSALEM: Israel defense officials say two high-ranking security men have been dispatched to India to assist with the investigation into the Mumbai attacks.
One is a representative of the Israeli defence ministry and the other is from the Shin Bet security service. They are also coordinating security at Israeli sites in India with local authorities.
The officials spoke on Sunday on condition of anonymity because the Israelis' presence was not officially made public.
The foreign ministry says at least seven Israelis were killed at a Jewish center targeted by the assailants.
Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld says a forensics team will leave Sunday for Mumbai to help identify the bodies of the Israelis. An Israeli air force plane is to fly the team to India and return with the bodies.
Open letter to the Israeli agencies:
Since it is too much to expect any punitive action by our gentle PM and even gentler "secular" cabinet, kindly go after the kingpins of this gruesome attack and avenge the death of seven of your citizens(and indirectly of all the ~200 people on behalf of the GoI also). Please carry the burden of vengeance of 1.1 Billion Indians along with the people of Israel till the job is executed since it is too much to expect much from our netas.
Sudhanshu wrote:
It would be fun to realize that, Mossad after learning the terrorists who killed Israeli citizens, were controlled by people from POK and so, they went after to assassinate them. Really wish that could happen.
and send chudiyan for every Indian male (both NDA and Congress wallas too since neither have been competent enough to do anything).
with TSP, to turn over key suspects.
It would be fun to realize that, Mossad after learning the terrorists who killed Israeli citizens, were controlled by people from POK and so, they went after to assassinate them. Really wish that could happen.