Indian Response to Terrorism

[RajeshA]

We should move the media discussion to a denuking of Pakistan as the proper response to this, because just as LeT got training and other resources for their attacks in Mumbai, next time 'some elements in Pakistan' can give them a dirty bomb to explode in some Indian city.

Just imagine a dirty bomb going off in Mumbai or Bangaluru, two Indian cities part of the global service chain, and the impact it would have on the Indian economy and trade with other countries. To say, that we expect TSP to desist from doing something like that, would be utterly irresponsible, after seeing how far they are willing to escalate. They will just claim, the nuclear materials were stolen by some disgruntled elements (Indian Muslims) in the Indian nuclear establishment, and there is no evidence that Pakistan was responsible for this. What will Indian politicians then do? Look for evidence. We were just lucky to have snapped up a girlie-boy this time. Would we be lucky every time? So let us not go down the road of 'chai-biskuit'.

This is the time to tell the world, the World cannot live with TSP nukes, and TSP should be completely denuked. George W. Bush found a solution to one of the 'rogue' countries India with the Indo-US Nuclear Deal. Obama is also looking for a solution to extend those gains and bring more 'rogue' countries into the Non-Proliferation regime. The general consensus is Pakistan cannot be given a Nuclear Passport, so the only other solution is Denuking. This presents an excellent opportunity for Obama to take his Disarmament obsession forwards.

Pakistan should be DENUKED. That is the best international response. No need for India to go to war, if the the cowards in PMO can't take it. They can however push USA to denuke Pakistan, which they wanted to do anyway.

[shiv]

It now appears that there was plenty of intelligence available.

Almost every step of this operation generated warnings which were passed on to the government.

But the government DID NOT ACT!!

What were they doing? I will tell you. As late Hemant Karkare said "90% of the ATS (Anti Terrorism Squad) were busy with the Malegaon blasts probe."

There appears to have been a Congress party inspired campaign to make maximum political mileage out of the Malegaon blasts probe, and because of that we saw the Pakistani foreign minister laughing on Indian TV and accusing the Indian Army of harboring terrorists.

If we cannot see that our own politicians are enemies of India, we will never ever be able o clear up my nation. This is the only country I have .The only country I can call mine.

Politcians will understand a game that sets their backsides on fire. Pakis know how to do that. We too must learn.

[samuel.chandra]

I had a plan to start a petition and had posted on BR. I think your blog looks better. I think the best way to force the govt into action would be to keep this issue hot in the next 6 months. If you would like to collaborate on a petition, please email me at [email protected]

Just posted my thoughts on my blog site. the link is http://pushkarbhat.com/blogs/2008/11/we-are-angry-indians-want-answers-and-actions/ Comments are welcome.

[brihaspati]

Indian gov is not and has not prepared for war with Pakistan - primarily because of the lack of political clarity about what the Indian political elite should do with Pakistan -as it is intimately connected to policy regards Islam as a whole on the subcontinent. Any action on Pakistan could react badly on Muslim voting patterns within India - as in spite of all sorts of protestation about patriotic Muslims, the large majority are brought up to give priority to religious identification and unity within a pan-Islamic framework of the Ummah.

The UPA is sacrificing a few ministers to save itself - but these ministers are themselves the products of the entire political culture where the severely shortsighted, and usually opportunist dynastic leadership passes on the buck of their own faults to minions in a framework that ensures choice of ineffective and therefore dependent and docile servants.

There is no point in Indian taxpayers maintaining a large body of inefficient and ineffective, unprofessional political "mosahibs" or palm-rubbing courtiers. We should push for a much more streamlined administration centred around a single directly elected head of state who having people's mandate is less amenable to factional pressures and is freer to choose professional people to take charge of affairs. Such a person based system cannot also get away with surviving by passing the buck to others, as he or she will be solely held responsible for defaults.

At the moment it is urgent to spread the consciousness that voters need to brutally penalize the current entire regime and not just single politicans - parties as a whole. Only when each opposrtunist courtier wishing to make it into the big-league centred around a dynasty or a caucus realizes that the decisions of the "patron" can affect his/her future from electoral viewpoint will this culture of sycophancy and its reward maintained at the cost of the common Indian, stop. The target is not individual politicians, but electoral punishment for everyone who has chosen to align with the regime or the party. Any regime that lets this happen will be penalized so - should be the message.

[ManuT]

So Shiv Raj Patil is resigns and the new Home Minister is P Chidambaram!

The P Chidambaram is the person blocking the compensation package for the Sixth Pay Commision for the Armed Forces.
I have some respect for PC for the 91 economic reform but as Home Minister. Is there anything going on the top floor.

In the light of the threats India faces an ex-Force Chief should have been appointed to inspire some confidence in the people.

[armenon]

Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi spoke by telephone to the foreign ministers of China and the United Arab Emirates as well as European Union foreign policy chief Javier Solana, and told them Pakistan had promised all help to India.

He can sense the a$$ whooping approaching. Hence this squealing to all and sundry

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Pak ... 776369.cms

[Gerard]

Will this be avenged ?

[enqyoob]

Several "failures" have been identified and several "revamping" reforms suggested, but there are some issues that come to mind once one starts thinking:

For instance, I want to thank Mr. Vivek Srinivasan for blessing us with his valuable insights:

Hey guys this is my analysis of the situation with regards to terrorism in India. It not pretty but i am forced to come to these conclusions.

Basically if you want the short story India is going to be as vulnerable to terrorist attacks for the next 5 to 10 years as it has been so far in 2008. How have i come to this grim conclusion?
Well read my arguments below.

..... 6) Bloddy slow response time- it took the NSG 9.30 hours to get to the scene. Link Below. I dont think i need to say more. If they had got there withing half hour many dozens of lives would have been saved.
hours.http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Why_ ... 775003.cms
So as you can see 6 things went wrong that fateful night if anyone of them had gone right these terrorist attacks might have been prevented or at least contained. It actually requires multiple failures of the security apparatus for the terroists to break through. Out apparatus miserably failed. Im not tarnishing the reputation of the NSG, once they finally got on the scene they did a splendid job.

Please do some research on this, and post "response times" of specialist national-level fast-response teams everywhere around the world in the past 10 years, when faced with terrorist events occurring some hundreds to 1000+ miles away from their barracks. For instance, compare against:

1. Israeli teams, (of course any location several hundred miles away is outside Israel).
2. American "Delta Force" or "SEALs"
3. British SAS or SBS
4. Japanese forces.

Anyone else. Any Chinese equivalents known?

Also, please read up on their preparations done BEFORE they leave their HQ. I am not saying I know it, and that you are wrong, but I am saying that unless you can post such comparisons, your claim that 9 hours from first warning in New Delhi to arrival on site in traffic-clogged Mumbai was "SLOW" is, well.... I need not say it, but you can figure out what I think. Please post your time allotments for accomplishing each of the required steps from the first phone call , so that we can agree on your estimate of what would be a REASONABLE time.

Also, I want to know the basis for your statement:

If they had got there withing half hour many dozens of lives would have been saved.

HOW would they have been saved?

Then we will start thinking (since you have not, evidently) about HOW they could have got there "withing half an hour", EVEN IF THEY HAD BEEN SITTING AT, SAY, MUMBAI AIRPORT. Note in answering that, that I read your own criticism of the ATS top officers for rushing into harm's way without proper preparation.

If, as I fear, you are NOT able to defend your "analysis" above, then I request that you go and delete your post to avoid embarassing yourself and the forum further.
*******************************

[NRao]

I find this too be too much. India authorities were all the time allowing an international crook to operate custom clearing houses - officially?

http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10480

A Colaba-based businessman, suspected to be henchman of underworld don Dawood Ibrahim [Images], handed over arms and explosives to the Lashkar e Tayiba terrorists for carrying out the attacks on Mumbai, in what is emerging as the first major joint operation by the Karachi-based gangster and the banned outfit, official sources said in Mumbai.

Ajmal Amin, the only terrorist arrested during the operation, told interrogators that the dozen ultras who sailed from Karachi had come to Sassoon Dock from where they were taken first to Cuff Parade and later to the Gateway of India in boats arranged by a frontman of Dawood, who runs several custom clearing houses in Mumbai, the sources claimed.

The Mumbai police and central security agencies have launched a massive manhunt for the businessman considered to be a henchman of Dawood, who has been listed as a global terrorist having links to the Al Qaeda [Images] by the United States.

The suspect looks after some customs clearing mechanism and also indulges in diesel smuggling for the underworld don, the sources claimed.

[NRao]

Terrorists stayed in room 630, had many visitors

[shiv]

I find this too be too much. India authorities were all the time allowing an international crook to operate custom clearing houses - officially?

http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10480

Why are you surprised? Do you think customs is needed only by terrorists? What about patriotic criminals? Just because patriotic criminals are in the majority you want to bash the minority unpatriotic criminals. Persecution!

Go wash the muzzle of your Kalashnikov.

[NRao]

Hotel Taj was warned of terrorist attack

ndo-Asian News Service
Sunday, November 30, 2008 2:33 PM (Washington)

The Taj Mahal Palace and Tower Hotel in Mumbai had been warned of a possible terrorist attack and had temporarily beefed up security, but nothing could have stopped the gunmen, Ratan Tata, chairman of the Tata Group that owns the hotel, said in an interview to be broadcast on Sunday.

The iconic Taj was one of two luxury hotels taken over by terrorists Wednesday night. When the 59-hour siege on Mumbai ended Saturday, at least 183 people were killed at 10 locations and another 239 were wounded.

"It's ironic that we did have such a warning and we did have some (security) measures," Tata said in an interview to Fareed Zakaria to be broadcast on CNN Sunday.

While Tata wouldn't elaborate on the nature of the warning, he said security measures - such as making guests walk through a metal detector and not allowing cars to park in the hotel's portico - were eased shortly before Wednesday night's mayhem.

But even if the security detail was in place, it would not have prevented the terrorists from entering the hotel, Tata admitted.

"They knew what they were doing, and they did not go through the front. All of our (security) arrangements are in the front," he said. "They planned everything. I believe the first thing they did, they shot a sniffer dog and his handler. They went through the kitchen."

The Taj, which opened in 1903, is India's most famous hotel and also one of its most luxurious. Now, its charred interiors are marred by bullet holes and grenade blasts, its corridors soaked in blood.

The attacks revealed huge gaps in the city's law enforcement and crisis management.

"The infrastructure was woefully poor," Tata said, citing as examples the fact that it took firefighters three hours to get water to the hotel after a fire broke out, and policemen died despite wearing bullet-proof vests.

Tata said that government agencies had been "very complacent because we've really not had this kind of terrorism inflicted upon us".

But he also commended the people of Mumbai and hoped they would remain united. "Rather than have us succumb to this kind of terror, what it has done is given us a resolve that nobody can do this to us," he said. "We're indignant, but we're not scared."

The Taj staff has pledged to restore the hotel to its former glory.

"The general manager lost his whole family in one of the fires in the building," Tata said, referring to Karambir Kang, whose wife and two sons - aged 14 and 5 - were killed.

"I went up to him today and told him how sorry I was, and he said, 'Sir, we are going to beat this. We are going to build this Taj back into what it was'."

[NRao]

I find this too be too much. India authorities were all the time allowing an international crook to operate custom clearing houses - officially?

http://bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/newsrf.php?newsid=10480

Why are you surprised? Do you think customs is needed only by terrorists? What about patriotic criminals? Just because patriotic criminals are in the majority you want to bash the minority unpatriotic criminals. Persecution!

Go wash the muzzle of your Kalashnikov.

What I did NOT post: these things perhaps are way up to the PMs office too - perhaps not in this form, but in others.

I recall: "Are we not proud to be Indians?"

[NRao]

'Do not come up, I'll handle them,' Major's last words

Priyanka causes Mrs G flutter

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NSA M K Narayanan resigns: Report

NEW DELHI: National Security Adviser MK Narayanan has submitted his resignation over the attacks in Mumbai that killed nearly 200 people, news channel Times Now said on Sunday.

Earlier in the day, Home minister Shivraj Patil, under tremendous criticism over a spate of terrorist attacks in the country since last year, has resigned in the wake of the Mumbai terror strikes. Patil has said that he felt obliged to take "moral responsibility" for the brutal attacks in Mumbai, an official government source said.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has accepted resignation of Home minister Shivraj Patil and has forwarded it to the President.

Finance minister P Chidambaram will take over as the new home minister and the finance ministry will now be under the direct charge of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. The CWC, which met here on Saturday night, gave the marching orders to Shivraj Patil.

[sunilUpa]

Govt may end ceasefire, dialogue with Pak

Chai bisqoot sessions are suspended, clearing path for French Fries sessions with Amerikhan?

What the f*cuk do they mean by suspending ceasefire.

Left parties want to take it up with UN.

[NRao]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/01/world ... ml?_r=1&hp

Top Indian Security Official Resigns as Toll Eclipses 180


Protesters critical of the Indian government’s response to this week’s attacks outside the Taj Mahal Palace & Tower Hotel on Sunday

By SOMINI SENGUPTA and KEITH BRADSHER
Published: November 30, 2008

MUMBAI, India — India’s highest-ranking security official resigned on Sunday, as the government began to reckon with the fallout from a three-day standoff with militants that raised troubling questions about India’s vulnerability to terrorism.

The day after the siege’s end, the official death toll rose to 183. But the police said they were still waiting for the final figures of dead bodies pulled from the wreckage of the Taj Mahal Palace & Tower Hotel, the 105-year-old landmark where the attackers held out the longest. Funerals in this commercial capital were scheduled to continue throughout Sunday, for the second day in a row.

As an investigation moved forward, there were questions about whether Indian authorities could have anticipated the attack and had better security in place, especially after a 2007 report to Parliament that the country’s shores were inadequately protected from infiltration by sea — which is how the attackers sneaked into Mumbai.

Home Minister Shivraj Patil, responsible for public safety and internal security as one of the most senior members of the government, resigned on Sunday to take responsibility for the failure of the country’s intelligence services and military to prevent the attacks in Mumbai.

Mr. Patil’s resignation is the clearest sign yet that the current government is feeling pressure from the general public in India to make amends.

All the while, tensions are swelling with Pakistan, where officials promised that they would act swiftly if any connection to Pakistani-based militants were found, but also warned that troops could be moved to the border quickly if relations with India worsened.

It was still unclear whether the attackers had collaborators already in the city, or whether others in their group had escaped. And perhaps the most troubling question to emerge for the Indian authorities was how, if official estimates are accurate, just 10 gunmen could have caused so much carnage and repelled Indian security forces for more than three days in three different buildings.

Part of the answer may lie in continuing signs that despite the country’s long vulnerability to terrorist attacks, Indian law enforcement remains ill-prepared. The siege exposed problems caused by inexperienced security forces and inadequate equipment, including a lack of high-power rifle scopes and other optics to help discriminate between the attackers and civilians.

At the Leopold Cafe, where diners and waiters were mowed down by a grenade and heavy fire from automatic weapons in one of the first attacks on Wednesday night, the staff finished cleaning the premises and prepared to reopen for business.

The cafe opened briefly at midday on Sunday. A few men were first to enter, yelling “victory to mother India!” and followed by a crush of reporters.

Eight diners died in the attack, four foreigners and four Indians, said Farzad S. Jehani, a member of the family that has run the restaurant for more than 75 years. The gunmen also killed two waiters, one of them shot in the cafe who staggered out into the street and bled to death and the other fatally shot in the back as he ran down the street in an attempt to escape.

Mr. Jehani was upstairs at the time of the attack, watching India’s cricket victory over England. “It sounded like a huge blast and then the machine gunning started,” he said.Amid the cleanup effort over the weekend, the brutality of the gunmen became plain, as accounts from investigators and survivors portrayed a wide trail of destruction and indiscriminate killing.

On Wednesday night, when a married couple in their 70s went to their third-floor window to see what was happening after hearing gunfire, the attackers blazed away with assault rifles, killing them both. Shards of glass still hung in the panes on Saturday.

When several attackers seized a Jewish outreach center, Nariman House, on Wednesday, neighbors mistook the initial shots for firecrackers in celebration of India’s imminent cricket victory over England. But then two attackers stepped out on a balcony of Nariman House and opened fire on passers-by in an alley nearby. They killed a 22-year-old call center worker who was the sole financial supporter of his widowed mother.

When a tailor locked up his store for the night, half a block from the Taj Hotel, a gunman spotted him and killed him instantly, said Rony Dass, a cable television installer. “We still don’t know why they did this,” he said, mourning his lifelong friend.

At the Taj, the gunmen broke in room after room and shot occupants at point-blank range. Some were shot in the back. At the Oberoi Hotel, the second luxury hotel to be attacked, one gunman chased diners up a stairwell and at one point turned around and shot dead an elderly man standing behind him.

“I think their intention was to kill as many people as possible and do as much physical damage as possible,” said P. R. S. Oberoi, chairman of the Oberoi Group, which manages the Oberoi and Trident Hotels, adjacent buildings that were both attacked.

Evidence unfolded that the gunmen had killed their victims early on in the siege and left the bodies, apparently fooling Indian security forces into thinking that they were still holding hostages. At the Sir J. J. Hospital morgue, an official in charge of the post-mortems, not authorized to speak to the news media, said that of the 87 bodies he had examined by midafternoon, all but a handful had been killed Wednesday night and early Thursday. By Saturday night, 239 people had been reported wounded.

Contrary to earlier reports, it appeared that Westerners were not the gunmen’s main targets: they killed whomever they could. By Saturday evening, 18 of the dead were confirmed as foreigners; an additional 22 foreigners were wounded, said Vilasrao Deshmukh, the chief minister of Maharashtra State, where Mumbai is located.

Rattan Keswani, the president of Trident Hotels, said he had found no basis for reports that gunmen had rounded up holders of American and British passports at the Oberoi and herded them upstairs. “Nothing seems to suggest that,” he said, noting that a range of nationalities was represented among the 22 hotel guests who died, in addition to the 10 staff members, all Indian.

Spokesmen for the F.B.I. and State Department said that they have confirmed that six Americans were among the dead. The officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, declined to provide new details on the American involvement, although they did not dispute reports that a team of F.B.I. agents was sent Friday to work with Indian authorities.

In Washington, President Bush pledged full support to India, both in the recovery effort and the investigation.

“The killers who struck this week are brutal and violent, but terror will not have the final word,” he said. “People of India are resilient. People of India are strong. They have built a vibrant, multiethnic democracy that can withstand this trial. Their financial capital of Mumbai will continue to be the center of commerce and prosperity.”

The police chief in Mumbai, Hasan Gafoor, said nine gunmen were killed, the last of whom fell out of the terrace of the Taj Hotel on Saturday morning as the siege ended. His body was charred beyond recognition when it was taken to St. George Hospital nearby. A man who is suspected to be the 10th gunman was arrested; the police say he is a 21-year-old Pakistani, Ajmal Amir Kasab.

The bodies of four other terrorist suspects were at the morgue at Sir J. J. Hospital. Officials there put their ages at between 20 and 25. All four were men.

A senior Mumbai police inspector, Nagappa R. Mali, said the suspect and one of his collaborators, who was slain by the police, had killed three top police officials, including the head of the antiterrorist squad, Hemant Karkare. Mr. Karkare was cremated Saturday morning in a crowded and emotional ceremony.

There were also funerals for Anand Bhatt, a celebrated lawyer who had been dining at one of the restaurants at the Oberoi on Wednesday night, and Ashok Kapur, the chairman of Yes Bank, who was having dinner with his wife, Madhu, on the second floor of the same hotel. The Kapurs were both pursued by a gunman up a staircase. But they became separated in the mayhem. She managed to escape; he did not. His body was found on one of the high floors of the hotel; he had been shot Wednesday night, once in the chest, once on the hand.Around dawn on Saturday, gunfire began to rattle inside the Taj Mahal Hotel, one of about 10 sites that the militants attacked beginning Wednesday night. They never issued any manifestoes or made any demands, and it seemed clear from their stubborn resistance at the Taj that they intended to fight to the last.

It was not long before flames were roaring through a ground-floor ballroom and the first floor of the Taj. But by midmorning, after commandos had finished working their way through the majestic 565-room hotel, the head of the elite National Security Guards, J. K. Dutt, said the siege was over. Three terrorists, he said, had been killed inside.

There were clear signs that the security forces were ill-prepared to handle the crisis. Much of that was because of systemic problems, interviews with officials showed. There is little information-sharing among law enforcement agencies.

Ill-paid city police are often armed with little more than batons. Even the elite commandos heading the charge against the gunmen this week were slowed by old, bulky bulletproof jackets and had no technology at their disposal to determine where the firepower was coming from inside the sprawling hotels.

Sharpshooters had neither protective gear, nor the high-powered telescopes that their counterparts in Western countries would most likely use in a standoff with terrorists. On Saturday afternoon, a sharpshooter who had spent over 60 hours perched outside the Taj Hotel said neither he nor his partner had fired a shot because they were not sure how to distinguish the gunmen from ordinary civilians trapped inside the hotel.

Similarly, a commando told a private Indian television station, CNN-IBN, that the gunmen seemed to be firing from so many different parts of the hotel that security forces did not quite know where to strike without inflicting civilian casualties. “There were so many people, and we wanted to avoid any civilian casualties,” he said.

On broader questions about India’s security, a report by The Indian Express daily newspaper on Saturday pointed out that a warning about possible militant infiltration by sea had come more than a year ago: in March 2007, when Defense Minister A. K. Antony told Parliament that the government had received intelligence reports that such attacks might happen. A parliamentary investigative panel found serious gaps in the Indian Navy and Coast Guard’s ability to monitor sea routes because of a lack of long-range surveillance equipment, including aircraft, according to The Indian Express.

There was considerable speculation in the Indian news media that Finance Minister P. Chidambaram might become the next home minister, but there was no immediate announcement of who would take the important ministerial role and begin the effort to reform India’s security response.

Reporting was contributed by Jeremy Kahn and Ruth Fremson from Mumbai; Hari Kumar and Heather Timmons from New Delhi; Jane Perlez from Islamabad, Pakistan; and James Risen from Washington.

[shiv]

Govt may end ceasefire, dialogue with Pak

Chai bisqoot sessions are suspended, clearing path for French Fries sessions with Amerikhan?

What the **** do they mean by suspending ceasefire.

Left parties want to take it up with UN.

What about the train staff? The bus drivers?

A few deaths in faraway Mumbai should not put the whole peace precess off course. We should send a cricket team immediately to Pakistan.

I know left parties love to take it "up" but what is the UN thing they want to take whatever it is that goes up?

[Philip]

Since the war clouds thread has suddenly disappeared,I'm respoting the Paki threats heer and India's raised security to "War" status.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/

World News
Pakistan troop threat
Pakistan makes troops threat over India standoff

Jeremy Page and Rhys Blakely in Bombay
Breaking news - India's Home Minister quits | Cafe Leopold reopens |

Sunday Times - India claims terrorists took orders from Pakistan | In depth: city of death | Among the dead | Hole blasted in Pakistan peace | Rift could tear India apart |

Relations between India and Pakistan were on a knife edge today as Indian authorities combed through the wreckage of last week's attacks on Bombay and interrogated the one Pakistani militant captured.

A senior Pakistani security official has warned that Pakistan would pull back troops fighting Islamist militants on the Afghan frontier if India builds up its forces on Pakistan's border, as it did after an attack by Pakistani militants on India's parliament in 2001.

Related Links
India's Home Minister forced to quit
Indians claim terrorists linked to Pakistan
Mumbai: city of death

Pictures: India terror
He said the next 48 hours would be crucial for the two nuclear-armed neighbours, which have fought three wars since winning independence from Britain in 1947, and almost went to a fourth after the Indian parliament attacks.

"If something happens on that front, the war on terror won't be our priority," the senior security officer told journalists at a briefing.

"We'll take out everything from the western border. We won't leave anything there."

His threat was clearly designed to encourage the United States and its allies to temper India's response to the attacks, which it has blamed on "elements" in Pakistan – most likely the militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba.

U.S. President George W. Bush has pledged his support for India, now considered a U.S. ally, but Washington also has close ties to Pakistan, its key Muslim partner in the War on Terror.

Pakistani troops are currently engaged in their biggest operation so far against al Qaeda and Taleban militants near the border with Afghanistan, where U.S. intelligence believes Osama bin Laden is hiding.

India's coalition government, led by the Congress Party, is under enormous political pressure to respond to the Bombay attacks so that it does not appear soft on terrorism in the run-up to national elections due by May.

It is convening an all-party meeting today to discuss the attacks and answer criticism of its response – particularly why it took seven hours for counter-terrorist National Security Guard commandos to arrive in Bombay.

Indian Home Minister Shivraj Patil resigned early today, in the wake of the brutal Islamist attacks in Mumbai according to Indian television reports.

Meanwhile, there were fears that more Britons may yet be found dead in the Taj Mahal Palace hotel in Bombay, hours after India commandos killed the three gunmen who were still holed up in the building to end one of the bloodiest terror strikes to hit India.

The coordinated attacks began on Wednesday night, when terrorists struck ten sites including two luxury hotels, a backpacker bar, a Jewish community centre, and Bombay's main train station.

Police had put the death toll at 195, but revised it down this morning to 174, including one Briton, with 239 more injured.

This morning, security forces were still combing the Taj, searching for unexploded ordnance and corpses. The first pictures of the interior of the building showed a scene of smashed glass and splintered woodwork.

Unexploded grenades littered the floor beside the hotel pool.

National Security Guard commandos said they discovered 30 bodies in a single room after storming the Taj Mahal hotel.

The British Deputy High Commissioner in Mumbai, Vicki Treadell, said she could not rule out further British fatalities.

Asked if she could confirm whether all British nationals were accounted for, she said: "I can't confirm that because the picture has yet to be clarified.

Indian security forces now believes that ten or eleven terrorists were involved in the attack. They are working on the assumption that the men sailed from Karachi in Pakistan before hijacking a fishing boat and slaying its crew about halfway to Bombay.

That fishing vessel was found adrift off the city shore with the body of one dead man, his throat slit, and a satellite phone aboard.

That the number of terrorist suspects has been dramatically lowered since Wednesday, when it was thought that there were about 25 gunmen, has triggered fears among the Bombay public that some terrorists may yet be at large. In the chaos of Wednesday night, police sources had said that several had escaped.

Police sources have identified the one militant to be caught alive so far as Azam Amir Kasav, a 21-year-old from the town of Faridkot in the Pakistani province of Punjab.

He was caught after he opened fire with an automatic rifle at Chatrapati Shivaji Terminus, Bombay's main train station, to kill indiscriminately. According to reports, he later pleaded not to be allowed to die after being shot by police.

Indian officials are convinced that the attack on Bombay bears the hallmark of Lashkar-e-Taiba, which was also blamed for the 2001 attack on the Indian Parliament, where terrorists stormed the building with guns and grenades, taking hostages as part of a suicidal mission.

They also believe that Lashkar-e-Taiba does not act without the sanction of some part of Pakistan's shadowy security services – though how far up the chain leads is a matter of intense debate.

Asif Ali Zardari, Pakistan's President, made an unprecedented offer on Friday to send the head of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency to India to help with the investigation.

However, the ISI said it had not been consulted and Pakistan's government later reversed the decision and said it would send a lower-ranking official instead.

The u-turn will again raise questions over how much control Pakistan's civilian government has over the ISI.

Indian officials have denied reports that they had found evidence to suggest that two of the terrorists were British-born Pakistanis.

However, they have not yet ruled out the possibility of a British link.

A senior Indian intelligence source said that suggestions that British citizens of Pakistani origin had checked into the Taj Mahal Palace hotel some weeks before the attacks to reconnoitre the building were being taken seriously.

"War level" security after Mumbai attacks

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/New ... 776059.cms

30 Nov 2008, 1543 hrs IST, REUTERS

NEW DELHI: There will be an increase in security in the country and on its borders to a "war level" in the wake of the deadly attacks in Mumbai
that killed nearly 200 people, a government minister said on Sunday.

"Our intelligence will be increased to a war level, we are asking the state governments to increase security to a war level," Sriprakash Jaiswal, India's minister of state for home affairs, said in an interview.

India said on Sunday it had proof of a Pakistani link to the Mumbai attacks, while officials in Islamabad said it would move troops to the Indian border if tensions between the nuclear-armed rivals spilled over.

"They can say what they want, but we have no doubt that the terrorists had come from Pakistan," Jaiswal said.

India has already boosted coastal security with the Indian Navy and the coast guard carrying out coordination patrols.

The Mumbai attackers are said to have come to the city by sea from the Pakistani port of Karachi, according to security officials.

They have said they were from the Lashkar-e-Taiba a Pakistan-based group that has been blamed for previous attacks in India.

"We have evidence of their nationalities. We will reveal everything soon," Jaiswal added.

[brihaspati]

What I did NOT post: these things perhaps are way up to the PMs office too - perhaps not in this form, but in others.

Here is a declassified US State Department doc - that still needs to black out the name of its source close within the PM's circle even 34 years after the original incident. The document is available on the US State Dept. website. For obvious reasons of caution and concern for the BR site I am not posting a direct link. But this is a publicly available doc for public to freely search and browse.

DEclassified Dept. of State - PA/HO, Department of state
EO 12958, AS AMENDED
June 9, 2005:
Intelligence information cable - dist 13 Dec 1971 IN 491198
PAGE 1 OF 4 PAGES
Country : INDIA PAKISTAN USSR CHINA

SUBJECT : INDIAN PRIME MINISTER INDIRA GANDHI'S BRIEFING [BLACKED OUT]
[BLACKED OUT] ON THE INDO PAKISTAN WAR
ACQ : [BLACKED OUT]
SOURCE : [BLACKED OUT] HE
IS A RELIABLE SOURCE [BLACKED OUT]
[BLACKED OUT]
1. ON 10 DECEMBER 1971 INDIAN PRIME MINISTER INDIRA GANDHI TOLD
[BLACKED OUT] THAT ACCEPTANCE OF THE UNITED NATIONS CEASEFIRE....[CONTD]

[NRao]

Govt may end ceasefire, dialogue with Pak

Chai bisqoot sessions are suspended, clearing path for French Fries sessions with Amerikhan?

What the f*cuk do they mean by suspending ceasefire.

Left parties want to take it up with UN.

With a multi tiered system: ISI, PA and GoP, India has to be prepared for the eventuality that this op was not in the realm of this GoP, and, perhaps even the PA. Some elements within the currently improving ISI could be responsible.

However, no Islamic thinking should ever enter the picture from the Pakistani side. That Pakistan acceded to lower thinking by proposing to sending a lower ranking ISI person is reason enough to believe that politics has entered the picture from the Pakistani side - considering the region perhaps it is an unavoidable thought and action - but, it is exactly this that needs to be broken. Terrorism has to face international laws and an Islamic Pakistan is no exception.

Furthermore, the thought of disengaging any troops from Pakistans Western front should be shelved. Indian armed forces have done what they have to do. It is the weak kneed Indian politicians that MUST produce results here on out - on a consistent and predicatble basis.

[sunilUpa]

Question, why on earth I haven't read/heard a single report asking for PM's resignation? What will it take? A NBC attack? attack on Rajmatha, Youvraja and Rani? Loosing half of India to Pakistan?

[Nitesh]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Citi ... 776509.cms

Leopold cafe re-opens to mark Mumbai's never-say-die attitude

[brihaspati]

It is time to stop looking at individuals in a regime, as it simply helps the overall ineffectiveness and opportunistic corruption to continue. The Rajmata, Yuvraj, Pradhan Mantri are not important - it is what they collectively represent that needs to go. If you target individuals that plays into the hands of the core coterie to survive by sacrificing individuals - the same logic used to maintain the terrorist ideology of Islam or to a certain extent Communism - its the individuals who stray and do "wrong" - the system and its ideology is not "bad" and should be "preserved".

It is time to declare groups that favour Islam, protection and its maintenance, protection of Islamic regimes that generate terror, including the state itself of Pakistan - enemies of the people. People of Pakistan have to be politely conveyed this message that if they do not themselves ensure cessation of terror from their government or gov sponsored agencies, from groups living among themselves, then they bear and share responsibility for terror - and future actions will necessarily affect them as collateral damage.

[Rahul M]

For obvious reasons of caution and concern for the BR site I am not posting a direct link. But this is a publicly available doc for public to freely search and browse.

you can post the link. no problem.

[enqyoob]

It's DeClassified. That means it is open literature and we can all access it. No problem posting the link, but b4 they deClassified it they blacked out all the good stuff, so what remains is mostly misinformation / disinformation.

[NRao]

Doctors shocked at hostages's torture

Pakistan in particular and the rest of the civilized world MUST act on this. IF this is not proof enough for Pakistan to act on every Islamic group then Pakistan needs to be managed by some other entity. It is a failed-failed state, a doubly failed state at the very least and cannot govern itself.

[Rahul M]

Several "failures" have been identified and several "revamping" reforms suggested, but there are some issues that come to mind once one starts thinking:
...........................etc etc

The actual reason why NSG took 9 hours deserves to be looked at more closely.

this is how the stand-by teams are organised:

Of the 1,200 commandos, some 100, formed into small teams specialising variously in kidnap, hostage, hijacking and other anti-terrorist emergencies are on duty round the clock - ready to go within minutes of receiving a summons.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... &Itemid=26

this is a team that is on stand-by of a few minutes, the members are course rotated.

Unfortunately, the situation in mumbai with at least 3 situations required more than 100 men.

unfortunately, NO country in the world is ever prepared for a sudden crisis situation that requires more than a 100 men. may be that will change now.

what I think the NSG decided was to mobilise completely with everything and everyman they needed and till that time depend on the MARCOS to hold fort with the Army forming the outer perimeter.
eventually they came down to mumbai with 200-300 men and another similar contingent the next day.

One thing that could and should have been done was to station a QRT at mumbai itself if not at all major hotspots. that is inexcusable.

[RamaY]

Fellow Rakshaks,

We need to organize rallies at all major cities to force the GoI to take action.
I stay in Hyderabad, let me know if someone from Hyd is interested in meeting at set location.
Lets send SMS, e-mails or call everyone we know...

something needs to be done.

Good Idea.

All the BRFites who are from Hyderabad but are living outside India, like me, can offer financial help. MilindC what you need is a good size of participation, minimum 500-1000 people chanting anti establishment slogans and carrying tricolor, to gain any attention.

I would suggest this. Let us call all our friends and relatives to participate in it. In addition to that let us pitch in some money to pay 100-150Rs per head (that is the going rate) to get some dancers, drums guys etc so it catches media attention....

Let me know if I can help you.

[SaiK]

Question, why on earth I haven't read/heard a single report asking for PM's resignation? What will it take? A NBC attack? attack on Rajmatha, Youvraja and Rani? Loosing half of India to Pakistan?

may be, but not at this time. a live ass is better than a dead lion.

[RamaY]

We are shooting ourselves in the foot, when we differentiate between 'some elements in Pakistan' and 'Pakistan State'. We should always say (at the minimum, diluted, in the cowardly mode, in the least brave mode) that 'some elements in the Pakistani State apparatus, which support terrorist groups and Taliban factions active in Afghanistan' are responsible for Mumbai Attacks. Secondly we should state that these elements are the true power brokers in Pakistan, and the democracy there is just the glasses of Superman to fool others (sorry comparing evil to a hero, albeit fictitious, here). In the brave modus, of course, we would be talking less anyway and not making any distinction.

We need to extend this definition of the Enemy to Indian state. Let me explain:

Pakistan (including Bangladesh) is a state created for Indian Muslims. .. {If you don't know why that is cra*, please go back to kindergarten}

Talk about the enemy sitting in our house…

{Yes. YOU ARE THE ENEMY trying to divide a great nation. YOUR MESSAGE IS THE SAME AS THAT OF THE LASHKAR-E-TOIBA TERRORISTS. Enough warnings have been issued to you. Rest of the cra*p you posted has been deleted, and so are you. Deleted. 'Bye}

[enqyoob]

Rahul:

From what I have read, all such specialist teams (SAS, etc., where is Johann???? ) take at least 24 hours to get organized and plan before rushing to the site. There is no magic to this - they cannot expect to survive in attacking a bunch of death-facing terrorists, when the terrorists hold all the advantages. So they have to plan, and train thoroughly for the SPECIFIC site. How many hours do you think it took to get a detailed plan of the Taj and Oberoi hotels, Nariman House, etc. to them?

30 minutes into the attack, how can they be sure they have seen the full scope of the attack? What if Mumbai is a diversion to get the NSG team into the air, before the real thing emerges in Delhi?

Also, as you see, the hotels were already surrounded by the local police, the ATS, and the Navy commandos. So there was no call to come rushing in unprepared.

Given these, the fact that the NSG arrived in just NINE AND A HALF HOURS is truly FAST response. People shooting off their fingers here with expert management opinions are, well, let's say thermally inflated to the point of being able to hover

Basically, India is NOT a militarized nation, it is a free democracy. There are, what, 3 million? 5 million? TOTAL law enforcement / security personnel in India, a nation of 1100,000,000.

Do you want to let the terrorists FORCE India to become such a nation? I would rather see the problem solved at the root -

GIVE PEACE A CHANCE. DESTROY THE PAKISTANI ARMY. DISMEMBER PAKISTAN.

[Shreeman]

Its probably diwali in Faridkot and the like right now. Why has no one in the media tried following these links to see what goes on in the hometowns of the slimeballs? Foreign media can actually assist by going to these places that Indian agencies currently can't. Does someone have the balls or are they all afraid of being a Daniel Perl?

PPS: There is no reason for announcing s**t. Just start examining ALL ships that pass within 500 miles of bombay and commerce to karachi will quickly become impossible.

[Nesoj]

A lot is being ranted here about a fitting military response, but just for a moment is it practcal ?

A full scale operation requires months of planning and deployement - is our army ready ?

Further, just say our army is ready and we attack - then what ? Do we have the capacity to over-run Pakistan ? Even if we have such capacity, then what? - would we just kill the entire population (164Million)? Because if we do not, then it would just keep on bleeding India (similar to what's happening in Iraq & Afghanistan).Only a moron, would think that we would we welcomed by cheering crowds, and what would happen is what happened to the US in Iraq - are we geared for the long haul ?

Again, if push comes to a shove, what if, in true Jihadi spirit, the Puki Army lets loose with their nuclear arsenal in a last stand ? Are we willing to, say accept the loss of a couple of our cities and it's entire civilian population (we are not talking here of hundreds of casualitie, but millions)? and if this happens, will we be in a position to continue our take-over of Pukistan?

Thinking sanely, one will see that there is NO 'direct military' option as it is really a stand-off. Do we back-off - NO, because we have other options that can bring Pukistan to it's knees without direct action.

India should make a list of demands (list of terrorists heads etc) to Pakistan with a time frame, in the event of them not complying (say within 7 days)
1) immediately enforce a maritime blockade and mine the entry to all their ports.
2) somehow find ways to divert the flow of water away from Pakistan (maybe using some controlled nuclear detotations for 'peaceful' purposes. Pakistan is an Agrarian society similar to ours, water is their lifeline
3) cut of all underwater cables crippling their telecom network.

[sum]

A full scale operation requires months of planning and deployement - is our army ready ?

The entire coldstart doctrine came about just for a scenario like this...of what use are such doctrines when you dont even want to think about using them?

[svinayak]

Indian politicians are afraid of Pakistan. They are afraid of hitting back. I will post a list of reasons why they are afraid

• The peace process with Pakistan will get upset
• We are a poor country. Farmers are committing suicide
• The US will put trade sanctions on us
• There will be an oil embargo on us
• Islamic nations will feel bad that we are fightting an Islamic country
• We must not do anything that will make our Muslims brothers think taht we are anti Islamic
• India is a nation of 1 biion. You know there ar emore than 200 deaths a day by murders in India. Terrorism is nothing
• We must think of China

What i would like to see is an instant reaction in which Karachi oil terminals are set on fire of a Paki ship sunk - or a PGM on Dawood's mansion in Karachi each time there is an atrocity - even if the atrocity is committed by Hindu converts to Buddhism.

I would like us to ready ourselves for nuclear war and promise o give back to Pakisatan twice as much as we take.

You have missed the most important point

Indian IT companies do not want war since their revenue will fall down. They will call upthe govt and ask them not to start a war.

[Rahul M]

A full scale operation requires months of planning and deployement - is our army ready ?

cold start is supposed to be completed in much, much less.

instead of the old method (called hammer and anvil by some) of the holding corps(based closer to the borders) inching towards IB to hold fort till the strike formations arrive from the interior, recent IA doctrine calls for the holding corps taking aggressive stance on its own without waiting for the strike corps. the strike corps would quickly deploy and take it from there.

do look up cold start in BR archives.

[kmc_chacko]

for these types of attacks our response should be like Iserels i.e., if you kill 1 of us we will kill 10 & make 100 to suffer.

I HAVE ONLY ONE THING TO SAY TOTALLY 180 ODD INDIANS AND NOT HINDUS, MUSALMANS, CHRISTIANS, SIKHS ETC OUR COMMONDOS LAID DOWN THEIR LIFE TO SAFE GAURD THOSE HUMAN BEINGS.

POLITICIANS JUST TALK INFRONT OF ALL THESE MEDIA AND THEY WILL NOT DELIVER ANY THING. Just remember Parliment attack till today no body has taken care this time also same will happen.

JAGO INDIA JAGO

[satya]

Indian Business World holds the key for they control the purse/money . The other two voices & votes ( from Dr. Shiv's post in OT ) are too fragmented to make any impact in near & short term . Only if Business world stick together and make it clear to current political leadership that we need action & accountability else its a long bloody road ahead .

[NRao]

Shiv/Acharya,

India does have alternatives and never takes them.

India is not a poor country. She has a parallel economy, which needs to be tapped or brought over ground (oh yeah). Correct the illegal activities and no farmer needs to kill himself (a huge part of the problem with this is actually US multinationals - which is a diff thread). India has teh worlds largest middle class, India geo is unparalled.

But, WRT TSP, it is the responsibility of all nations to pressure Pakistan to clean up. There are politicians in EU that are scared of reprisals from Islamists and are actually in hiding in their own country. This is a Islamic problem that Pakistan needs to resolve within. It cannot continue any longer.

[brihaspati]

For the presence of foreign moles around the PM's of India - look at the top heading :
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/nixon/e7txt/50163.htm There is a pdf image of the actual memo somewhere! Found it
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/47958.pdf