Indian Response to Terrorism

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 30 Nov 2008 23:12

SaiK wrote:
you can say 1000 things before becoming a PM or president.. take bush, obama or any body for that matter. vajpayee
play your game ahead.

please awaken! the kalki is calling!

Unless you start doing things, without "asking" people nothing will change. The "asking" business is easy. Do what you want to do without regard to the "asking" business. The stupid p*ss plan can have hundred tracks, but the action plan needs to have one serial set of events?

ps: nothing you "ask", "say", or "do" will make america (substitute your favorite country) act any different. They have their own interests. Blabbering at UN got us the kashmir problem, and the tibet problem.

samuel.chandra · Post by **samuel.chandra** » 30 Nov 2008 23:13

BR gurus, please review petition. Posting it on both TSP related threads. Petition cannot be changed after its posted. So any feedback, please provide now.

Goals of this petition:
- Force the Indian government to untie the military's hands to allow them to engage Pakistan in a limited/full scale war.
- Keep the issue of a lack of response from the Congress and BJP to Pakistani terror alive during this election season. This is not just a problem with Congress but BJP as well. This time we cannot allow these politicians to back down.

What's working for us:
- Elections in 6 months. Both parties will vie for our votes. We can set up a contest. Whoever is more aggressive on security gets our support. The best option at this stage is to put pressure on the Congress because they will be desperate to retain power. Of course if the congress doesn’t deliver, we can vote for BJP.
- Worldwide sympathy. The media coverage worldwide ensures that Govt. of India doesn't have to do any PR management in support of the war.
- The elite in India. This time the targets were the elite. They will not fund election campaigns if Pakistan is not made to pay for this.

What’s working against us:
- The Americans and British who want the Pakistanis to fight their war on terror... and want us to be just happy with superficial meetings and committees. We can’t blame them. They are doing it in their best interest. We have to take care of ours.
- The US media. They are trying to project this as an internal/Kashmir issue precisely to fulfill their agenda mentioned above.
- The Indian media. The left wing/secular/communist media doesn’t want India to retaliate. Recent media shops are MNC controlled (hence will promote western interests). So we the people, have very few friends in the media.
- The Pakis, of course. They have done their job. All that’s remaining is to somehow placate the Indians and avoid any retaliation (they are probably very confident of this since they have done this very effectively in the past).
- The Political parties in India. Congress does not want to have to deal with this during this election season. They are hoping that we forget this like we usually do. Communist parties in India(probably on directions of the Chinese). BJP, probably wants the issue to keep boiling for 6 months so it gains electorally... without actually solving it.

Let's analyze some of the alternatives besides partial/full war:
- Can we negotiate with Pakistani Army/ISI. That’s not an option. Their only objective is to keep India down like their own under-developed nation. If you need a reminder, just read the article about how Captain Kalia was tortured: http://www.petitiononline.com/LtKalia/petition.html
- Can we ask Pakistan to hand over Dawood /Chota shakeel/Massod Azhar. We can..but it will drag on for ever and never actually happen based on past experience. Besides they are just the low level guys. The handlers are the ISI.
- Can we ask the US/British lobby to put pressure on Pakistanis to deliver eliminate terror and deliver Dawood/LET cheif. They have been largely unsuccessful at getting anything from Pakistanis even after paying them, threatening them and bombing them.
- Can we ask our current Govt. to send troops across the border. Bomb key camps across the border. Cause pain to the handlers (who are obviously rejoicing at the carnage they have caused in Mumbai). We can. But from all indications, Congress is looking to drag this on by talking to everyone until the issue becomes irrelevant. The Americans and the British are looking to actively help the congress in its quest for inaction. They need the Pakistanis to concentrate on the Afghan border and a conflict in the east is bad for them.
- Is electing the BJP a better option. Yes, slightly better option. Their track record is not exactly stellar. They are making noises about security. But they are not coming out clearly saying they will cross the border and teach the Pakis a good lesson. They are talking about security but it’s deliberately fuzzy. The actual action that would be taken is not clear. If the BJP clarifies their plan, clearly, categorically, yes, we could vote for them.
- We secure every major building in all the major cities. Any temporary let up in security could still cause a Mumbai kind incident. But it's possible. Very expensive, not very practical, not error proof either, we will be spreading ourselves too thin. Any concentrated attack on one location with enough force to go over the threshold can cause a Mumbai like situation again. So theoretically possible, but don't think, very practical.

Consequences of inaction:
- We remain a soft target. The next attack will be more audacious (possibly a dirty nuclear bomb in a city center).
- You or your loved once will fall victims to a Paki bomb at some point. It's a question of probability. It's like you are walking blindfolded thru a mine-field.
- The Paki terrorists laugh at you because they think you are impotent. This is pretty much how the ancient kingdoms were repeatedly attacked, pillaged and raped by the barbarian hordes until they finally took over. Obviously, they know that we haven’t learnt much from our history. Are they wrong?
- The investments dry up. The world loses confidence in India's security climate and stops investing. All that we have worked for is being destroyed by these barbarians. Repeat of history...don’t you think?

Consequences of action (a partial / full war)
- The unknown. We don't know the outcome. But without the risk, there is no reward. Besides what do we have to lose now. They have already attacked all the economic centers of India in the past few attacks. They are in severe economic distress. They will sue for peace after a week's battle.
- Nuclear war. With a partial war, this won't be triggered.
- Other countries. US/UK/China.
All the publicity in the western media means that they understand what we have gone thru. They cannot now turn against us and support Pakistan. China might but it’s not going to join in an overt battle. The most China will do is supply it weapons.
- Economic loss. The economic loss of not acting is actually more that going for a partial war.
- The world will respect us for taking care of this menace called Pakistan. They are the world’s problem... not just ours. The objective of the war might be to create smaller enclaves within Pakistan so they have local enemies to fight against! That solves the problem for ever.

Action plan:
1) Send copies of this petition to the political parties (already sent them to PMO/AICC), media, Bharat-Rakshak.com.
2) Collecting names of authors who favor our position and getting them onboard. eg: Analysts like : B Raman.
3) Coordinating with other efforts that are being suggested in websites like Bharat-Rakshak like peaceful demonstrations across the country demanding action.
4) Posting paid advertisements in websites like Sulekha/Rediff etc asking for support.
5) Coordinating with other petitioners/bloggers like Pushkar Bhat (http://pushkarbhat.com/blogs/2008/11/we ... d-actions/)
6) Keep exposing the approach of the current govt of:
- Distracting/appeasing the public by making a few heads roll.
- Getting Bush/Obama to diffuse the crisis by suggesting Indians are resilient.
- Distracting public attention by focusing on efforts at preventing future terror attacks (while commendable, do not include retaliation which is a must for Pakistanis to feel the pain).
7) Faxing copies of the petition and response reports to PMO/AICC/BJP offices on weekly basis.

The most important thing we need to show the politicians is that we will not forget this time. And that we will be consistently apply the pressure over the next 6 months. We should not get cynical. That’s what the politicians are hoping. They are scared of the resolve we are showing currently. Let’s believe this will work. Let’s send it to all our friends. We have to beat the politicians this time. Let’s not think emotionally. We have to be as smart as the politicians in achieving our goals. We have to promote this like there was no tomorrow. The next major terror attack will take years and Pakistanis would have learnt from their mistakes and will cover their tracks (and most likely the attack would be dirty bombs). So let’s not lose this opportunity.

jmaxwell · Post by **jmaxwell** » 30 Nov 2008 23:13

Some sentiments from another site:

ahhhhhhh.....Thanksgiving weekend and Americans are safe in their homes. Thank you Mr. Bush!!

► Elsewhere in the world the "Religion of Peace" is hard at work.
► Elsewhere in the world the Islamofascists are blowing up buildings.
► Elsewhere in the world the Islamofascists are murdering innocent people.

It's been seven years since 9/11 and there have been no terrorist attacks against Americans. Do you know why? Because after 9/11, Mr. Bush sent the American military half way around the world to find the people responsible for 9/11 and gut them like pigs.

Memo to India's leaders: Take a lesson from Mr. Clinton....if you do NOT respond to this terrorist attack with overwhelming force, you will be targeted again and again and again. Don't listen to the Islamofascist apologists or the liberal leftists....let them bitch and moan. They're ignorant.

Find the homes of the people that committed this outrageous act and burn them down. Find the families of the people that committed this outrageous act and kill them. Send a VERY CLEAR message to terrorists everywhere that future attacks will NOT go unpunished.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 30 Nov 2008 23:16

India has to warn US that either US defangs TSP or India will. That is the only option left.

That shows a keen understanding of India.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Nov 2008 23:18

shreeeman, i shall wait for your emotions to come down, and you start thinking in holistic sense.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 30 Nov 2008 23:20

ramana wrote:India has to warn US that either US defangs TSP or India will. That is the only option left. The to and fro with TSP retains the hyphenation. Need a game changer.

With 'defang', one can mean taking away the crown jewels or it could mean shutting down the relevant arm of TSP Military (army, air force, navy, isi, sarkari taliban, sarkari jihadis) directed at India, or both. What would you want as focus/priority/preference?

harik · Post by **harik** » 30 Nov 2008 23:21

Hariprasad >
Quote:
On Friday, Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak said it was clear that Indian forces were not on par with elite Israeli units.

The Israeli press clearly seems hostile to India. I'm deeply disturbed by this given the bonhomie enjoyed by average Israeli on the Indian streets.
----

Instead of getting distrubed , why not question our press, why cant our press look after the interest of Indians , or Indian press is only looking after its own interest ?

Game will change only once we will dehyphnate the hyphenation within India , namely ,
Hindu Muslim!, the day when one political grouping has the guts to say we can attack w/o doubting the india's muslims reaction negatively while voting things will change.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Nov 2008 23:23

Ramana,

The current game is very predictable. Someone (perhaps not GoP/PA/ISI) targets India, India provides details of where in Pakiland they came from, TSP denies everything, asking for more proof (perhaps knowing that it originated within some corner of ISI), things are not resolved, GoI threatens something, GoP says they will withdraw 100,000 troops from A'stan border (expecting the US to pressure India into threatening TSP), etc, etc, etc.

From what I read, the CURRENT democratically elected government of Pakistan SEEMS to have the same goal WRT terrorism as the rest of the world, at least that is what they claim. I think we need to push this idea to its natural end - get rid of all terrorist groups within Pakistan.

Those within Pakistan that are opposed to this idea (and therefore that of the GoP) are actually elements within the ISI and PA. Note that it was the PA (among others) that opposed the ISI chief from visiting India. So, these have to be tackled - BEFORE tackling the terrorists.

Those within the officialdom that protect the terrorists needs to be tackled first. Else the problem will recover - as it has today.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 30 Nov 2008 23:28

No he did not. He does not have mandate from SG to take independent decisions.
Time and again Indian politicians have failed the citizens and we wonder how stupid we are, keep believing that democracy will work, and end up electing nincompoops and criminals.

Exactly - and this is why we need to see to it that the chief decision maker is not a split personality between more than one power centres - a President like in the US system. We are not stupid - we have been used to be apathetic because in the past the elite failed to protect and worse even collaborated with foreign elements in our exploitation. It is important to give the people a taste of power - one can come by coordinating voting patterns on single issues and not diffuse it on many different local issues. Protests and anger or mistrust of politicians should visibly continue - you will be surpised how quickly even the media will fall in line. It just has to steer clear of any obvious political affiliation.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Nov 2008 23:29

I am not sure if I am imagining, but is Pakistan pulling out all oldies - who do NOT belong to this admin, to plug for them? I have to suspect that the directive is coming from some other place than the current, democratically elected, GoP.

WashPost:

He said Pakistan had put its air force and navy on high alert. "In case of any Indian aggression, Pakistan will respond to it in a matching way," he said.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 30 Nov 2008 23:34

With kind regard to Shiv, who listed the majority of items below. Here is a FAQ (and good reason for folks to stop using any of these arguments in their posts, or their thought process).

The top N reasons for not acting, and why they are ridiculous:

Commerce will suffer: It will not. People like doing business with folks who stand behind their words. Your alternative is the level of commerce in Pakistan. Do you understand what loss of confidence means? How about currency devaluation? Does commerce really gain from periodic disruptions of this scale? Will commerce really help when your business or family (god forbid) is a target?
The peace process with Pakistan will get upset: What rock did you slither under from? There is no peace process. There never has been. There are plenty of people to sell your soul to, in this country. Pay back what you got, and try reselling your used "sole".
We are a poor country. Farmers are committing suicide: And so? I am wearing a gray shirt. How is this relevant? The US has people begging at every street corner. So what?
The US will put trade sanctions on us: The US already does that. Every heard of the wonderful treatment your trained manpower gets during the non-immigrant (and then the resident) status? What makes you think the US government is doing anything less now? IT folks are filling a need, if they are competent, business will find a way to get you work. Lastly, your real market is in India. Trade sanctions are good.
There will be an oil embargo on us: India produces enough to keep fighting. Between Russia, Venezuela, and others there are plenty of suppliers not hostage to Oeuslam. Oil is not even remotely relevant right now. If you are still an oil person, I have a cannister and matches for you.
Islamic nations will feel bad that we are fighting an Islamic country: Islamic countries are more than eager to contribute troops if you want to resolve this. Do you think they like being in the condition their good brothers have put them? The worth of their collective passports increases a million fold if someone can resolve the p*stan problem.
We must not do anything that will make our Muslims brothers think that we are anti Islamic: We are anti-islamic. If that is what it takes to buy peace. You are not, let me buy you a ticket to a non anti-islamic place. Go there today.
India is a nation of 1 billion. You know there are more than 200 deaths a day by murders in India. Terrorism is nothing: The cost is not in people, its not in others suffering, its in your own worth. I would much rather these idiots blow up every politicians entourage than try out their skills on poor people in buses and trains - if they must. Post a big target sign on the parliament and every assembly. But this is not the case. The less the nation shows its might the more maoists, muslims, and assorted groups want their own "strong" nation. How many do you want?
We must think of China: China is not involved. It will not get involved. This has nothing to do with china. Don't you understand hindi-chini bhai bhai . We are doing military exercises with them many times a year, navy and air force are planning exercises. Business is at all times high. China wants nothing to do with this. Stop falling for paki propaganda.

Anyone has any other reasons?

Madhusudhan · Post by **Madhusudhan** » 30 Nov 2008 23:38

Revenge is a Dish best served cold -

1. Begin troop deployment to Border
2. US will urge restraint
3. Provide a list of targets to be taken out by Predator drones to the US in exchange for not increasing troop deployment.
4. Simultaneously, begin covert ops in Pakistan (such as taking out Islamist military chiefs, Intelligence chiefs, etc with Polonium Chai)
5. Denuke Pakistan, and being process of dismemberment of Pakistan

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 30 Nov 2008 23:43

NRao wrote: From what I read, the CURRENT democratically elected government of Pakistan SEEMS to have the same goal WRT terrorism ...

Oh, for the love of benji, see what they do, not what they say . Stop trying to create good pakiban and bad pakiban. Now repeat a hundred time,

Once a paki, always a ...

There is no difference between governmand, army, ISI, blah, taliban, FATA, LeT, JeM, Mujahiddin, Abdul, Lal Masjid, Madrassa, PISS. Its all a single entity, and a single identity - paki.

Consider a bully. Beats up another boy. The other boy hits back. Bully says he will use his "back" if beaten to get even. Familiar? Understand blackmail now, do we need to go on?

Why in the world, do you still want someone else to do your work? Whose permission do you look for before you go pee? This should come just as naturally if not more.

Do what you need to, when you need to, how you need to. You need to act, there is no substitute. Never was.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 30 Nov 2008 23:47

The top N reasons for not acting, and why they are ridiculous:

Yes they maybe all ridiculous- but together they make a powerful argument in favour of not taking action in someone without the political will. But I would think that just from common sense, if the political regime had not thought of clearly what it ultimately wants to do with Pakistan, the military and strategic objectives will be ill-defined and self-defeating. This not a cross-border Israeli-Palestine toss-up. This particular attack must have come with full knowledge of the Pakistani state, but for various reasons it simply was unable to (or as some BRfites will point out probably did not want to) act - the Zardari faction does not feel itself strong enough to defy the military-secret service completely, and is also under pressure from the theological establishment to compromise with the Taleban - and therefore Pak army is fully ready. I do hope everyone in India sees the sense in taking military action not on Pak cue but when they least expect it.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 30 Nov 2008 23:48

Argument:

brihaspati wrote:
...nincompoops and criminals.

Response:

...but its easy to file an FIR and make anyone a criminal.

Stop electing anyone with any sort of criminal record, period. Better, enact a one term limit for any political post, and strict tenure of N years - for life. One political office is all you get - for life. This is a country of 1 billion people, its not that you can't file others to fill the need, or that this lot is irreplaceable.

veeramani · Post by **veeramani** » 30 Nov 2008 23:49

My dear brothers in Bharath,

I am from Northern Sri Lanka and I have first hand witnessed how such terrorists operate. There have been many more serious attacks from the LTTE, on the SL government's infrastructure using similar methods as we have seen in Mumbai.

Even though I am not biologically human, it still pains me to see fellow Gorgontulas and followers of the santa dummy to be harmed like this. Whatever happens to India it also happens to your people living here.

What I would like to suggest is that instead of pursuing a costly conventional war with argentina, why not be idiots like we are?
Is it that hard to setup a group consisting of youth who are hell-bent on jerking off against the ideology which actively promotes the destruction of our seed of life ?

India has experience in kicking the sh!t out of a terrorist group, as it did in SL with the Tamil tigers.

If say you were to reciprocate the attacks on Mumbai with a similar one in say Killinochi, one way fighters.

A good pool of recruits would be the children of those who have been honored in the name of Gaandootva.

it would show the Icelanders the answer in the language they understand. Also it could be deniable on part of the indian government. This group could also be used to make life unbearable to the leaches in India so that they are forced to leave and go underground in the summer.

Meditate on this idea and I look forward to your replies.
{We DO fight terrorism. We ban bigots. }

Anabhaya · Post by **Anabhaya** » 30 Nov 2008 23:50

What was the outcome of Sundays all party chai-biskoot?

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 30 Nov 2008 23:53

brihaspati wrote:
The top N reasons for not acting, and why they are ridiculous:
Yes they maybe all ridiculous- but together they make a powerful argument in favor of not taking action in someone without the political will.

No they don't. The lack of will creates these reasons. Not the other way round. You don't want to do something -> you find the right excuse. That's the point of the FAQ.

I see no riots in Faridkot, not a chirp in any media, about the good citizens of Faridkot lynching the remaining terrorists there. Yet, you routinely see honor killings. Get the picture? There is no Gilani, Qureshi, Zardari. There is one monolithic monster. Their verbal diarrhea should get no bandwidth from you, and their arguments no consideration.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 30 Nov 2008 23:55

veeramani wrote:My dear brothers in Bharath,

I am from Northern Sri Lanka and ....

Kindlee stop promoting civic unrest. India is a strong enough country to say what it wants to do, and do what it wants, without resorting to underhanded tactics. The US stooped to the low level of the pakis. See what it got them. Six years and billions of dollars later, they are still wasting missiles in Afghanistan.

bahdada · Post by **bahdada** » 01 Dec 2008 00:01

Wow. Our Govt is truly inept. Not one official, representative or anything on all of the US Sunday morning shows. It's thanksgiving weekend here, people are tuned in eating leftovers with families. The Paki's had their ambassadors from UK and US along with lobbyists doing the whole talk show circuit.

Their UK Ambassador said the terrorists were "dark" and people from Pakistan and Kashmir were "fair"and that this could have been an Indian extremist operation to derail the peace process being "built" by Zardari. I swear! and the there was no one to call out that or number of other BS talking points being trotted out today. We can bitch about the Western media but in the end we offer no counterpoint. Only MSNBC with Sara Jacob from NDTV NY office was calling out all the BS.

The pakis have THREE major lobbying firms on K Street to our ONE(well its in transition now that we have to switch to Democratic agency). Even the senators from states with huge Indian American populations were peddling the "Pakistan are victims" too line. WHAT THE EFF are doing? I mean honestly our response looked pathetic, our press management is pathetic and now we aren't even doing any Public Relations for to offset a concerted Paki FUD campaign.

It's so sickening.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 01 Dec 2008 00:08

Dear Veeramani,

I sympathise with your feelings. But I think we do have to think without emotion - as you mention you are a Vaishnava you will probably heed Geeta's injunction to act not in anger but without emotion, and do what is needed. The reason I would request you to think twice about this is that
(1) the children of those killed have already suffered terrible loss, but they have others connected to them in love and human bonds, we should not multiply and spread the pain further down that network of family and love bonds.
(2) we have to think of bringing back our operatives - for in spite of everything, we are still not followers of Islam, and Sanatana dharama says that "dharam, artha, kama and moksha" are all equally important - we should try not to lose lives made more valuable by their effectiveness. Practically speaking, it is quite costly to train and prepare such "black ops" and the sheer human cost in terms of skill achieved cannot be wasted.
(3) such initiatives will also be jeopardized as long as the political will is lacking in the elite in power, and the initiative will risk betrayals from within the country.

Please think of much more comprehensive political consolidation behind the will to act militarily.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 01 Dec 2008 00:12

BahamaDada wrote:Wow. Our Govt is truly inept.

It's so sickening.

Foreign media is irrelevant. Unless their reporters pay homage to Faridkot, muridke, and karachi the right way, restrict their accreditation.
US domestic propaganda is irrelevant. There are some things you can't base on the opinion of a foreign population. BTW, these guys will swallow dog turds if you tell them its bacon. Osama bin who's my friend now is still in Eyeraq to a significant minority.
Not being on TV right now is not necessarily a bad thing. All right, there are plenty of resources, that we shouldn't have to roll over in the media. No doubt, and there is plenty to tar and feather several generations of each and every government official. Still, its not the end of the world. Winning a media war here, will change nothing. When US soldiers are getting killed, the country is still sending them F-16s, P3s and everything else. What they don't get, they take from NATO convoys another way. No one is praising that lot, but is there a difference on the ground?

Do something yourself. Help us get the first thing on to google for many many searches to be:

Give peace a chance, ...
Once a paki, ...

This will do more than any talking head on TV can achieve, ever.

bahdada · Post by **bahdada** » 01 Dec 2008 00:17

Shreeman wrote:
BahamaDada wrote:Wow. Our Govt is truly inept.

It's so sickening.

Foreign media is irrelevant. Unless their reporters pay homage to Faridkot, muridke, and karachi the right way, restrict their accreditation.

US domestic propaganda is irrelevant. There are some things you can't base on the opinion of a foreign population. BTW, these guys will swallow dog turds if you tell them its bacon. Osama bin who's my friend now is still in Eyeraq to a significant minority.

Not being on TV right now is not necessarily a bad thing. All right, there are plenty of resources, that we shouldn't have to roll over in the media. No doubt, and there is plenty to tar and feather several generations of each and every government official. Still, its not the end of the world. Winning a media war here, will change nothing. When US soldiers are getting killed, the country is still sending them F-16s, P3s and everything else. What they don't get, they take from NATO convoys another way. No one is praising that lot, but is there a difference on the ground?
Do something yourself. Help us get the first thing on to google for many many searches to be:

Give peace a chance, ...

Once a paki, ...
This will do more than any talking head on TV can achieve, ever.

Not a bad idea. Indian's run a lot of big SEO's so it would not be hard.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 01 Dec 2008 00:20

No they don't. The lack of will creates these reasons. Not the other way round. You don't want to do something -> you find the right excuse. That's the point of the FAQ.

I think what I wrote means that if someone doesn't have the political will, then he/she will use these excuses or these reasons will appear very powerful to him.

I see no riots in Faridkot, not a chirp in any media, about the good citizens of Faridkot lynching the remaining terrorists there. Yet, you routinely see honor killings. Get the picture? There is no Gilani, Qureshi, Zardari. There is one monolithic monster. Their verbal diarrhea should get no bandwidth from you, and their arguments no consideration.

Islamic chroniclers clubbed all Indians together into the "black faced Hindoo" - and that stopped a great deal of infighting and divisions within the Indians leading to wars of attrition by enterrising "Hindus" that drained the Delhi Sultanate, and the Mughals. Even strategically speaking, you should hold the carrot and stick policy to divide and isolate the theological and elite leadership of Pakistan as mucj as possible - you dont'want to ensure that the common Pakistani fights bitterly to the last bitter end (which may happen anyway - I agree, but records of large Islamic forces committing mass suicides fearing defeat or capture is rarely heard of - they are very quick to surrender to "safe authorities" when faced with annihilation - as happend in Bangladesh war) - you have to hold out the hope of getting "pardoned" to neutralize or minimize resistance.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 01 Dec 2008 00:29

brihaspati wrote: you dont'want to ensure that the common Pakistani fights bitterly to the last bitter end (which may happen anyway - I agree, but records of large Islamic forces committing mass suicides fearing defeat or capture is rarely heard of - they are very quick to surrender to "safe authorities" when faced with annihilation - as happend in Bangladesh war) - you have to hold out the hope of getting "pardoned" to neutralize or minimize resistance.

You believe in TFTA. Educate yourself regarding the fine art of downhill skiing practiced recently. Most recent examples, kargil, and afghanistan containers. This is specific to napakis. Taliban, ieyeraq are other established examples. There is no 1:10 and no TFTA.

[sarc]
PS: If you are not convinced, how about that bridge in Alaska? Good toll rates, I can let you have it cheap.
PPS: You have won the Irish board of lottery grand prize.
[/sarc]

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 01 Dec 2008 01:05

Shreemanji,

I am used to facing abuse in debates - I have debated 100's of academics and historians in various conferences or seminars, and they quickly turn to personal denigration and abuse when their logic runs out. Please do believe me, when I say, that my early teenage years were spent under the watchful eyes of someone very-well known as a "Right-winger" stalwart who opted to clash with IG, and my student days were spent with the "Left" - all within the parliamentary framework. I have seen the full spectrum, and I have worked at grassroots to national levels - I have seen sufficiently of all levels of people of India inspite of what some will deride as my "class/social" background, to solidly back-up my "majjhim pantha" as a strategic way forward to my avowedly Right-wing thrust - which I have declared many times since joining these forums. These thoughts have come over many years of practical experience in "field", and not out of emotional outbursts from the safety of a coffee cup. For "God's sake" have you ever had really tried to mobilize the "commons" for something?

The terror issue is not a simple one, it is complex, and perhaps needs what I am suggesting, and what with experience you will come to realize as "Chanakya niti", and not at all compromising or sympatheic to terrorist ideologies.

We need to do as much as possible to divide and confuse the "enemy", and yes, even if you think I am a fool, I do have the confidence, that given the right political will and backing, we can "convert" a large number of the "commoners" from the "enemy"

madhuvani · Post by **madhuvani** » 01 Dec 2008 01:11

From
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/ ... 86308.html

'what angered Mr D'Souza almost as much were the masses of armed police hiding in the area who simply refused to shoot back. "There were armed policemen hiding all around the station but none of them did anything," he said. "At one point, I ran up to the'

If this is true some heads need to do some serious rolling.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 01 Dec 2008 01:17

All that I can currently do is blog. What I'd like is permission to quote from here, with attributions, of course.

veeramani · Post by **veeramani** » 01 Dec 2008 01:19

{Your post has been deleted. As explained adequately in your previous post, you are just trying to post bigoted incendirary stuff reflecting Sri Lankan terrorist psychopath sentiments. You were given a final warning, and it has induced no intelligence.

We have no patience on this forum for bigots who try to divide us. 'bye.}

Postor Veeramani is shaheed.

Vikramaditya · Post by **Vikramaditya** » 01 Dec 2008 01:25

India should up the anti to withold the IMF monies in conjunction with military / covert options

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Dec 2008 01:29

RajeshA wrote:
ramana wrote:India has to warn US that either US defangs TSP or India will. That is the only option left. The to and fro with TSP retains the hyphenation. Need a game changer.
With 'defang', one can mean taking away the crown jewels or it could mean shutting down the relevant arm of TSP Military (army, air force, navy, isi, sarkari taliban, sarkari jihadis) directed at India, or both. What would you want as focus/priority/preference?

All that and make it peaceful.

The game is going on from before 1947. And the game is to prevent a nationalist state in India that looks after its own interests. A stable India will become a power center and thats not in Western interests. and ow PRC. So they keep this pest alive with all its wherewithal to keep India down. Their belief is in the misreading of Indian history. so if we keep talking about TSP to TSP the hyphenation will continue. The dialog has to be with their backers. It is in the backers interests to de-fang TSP. If they don't then India has to break free and that could be an antagonistic India.

I don't expect this to happen in the next three months unless a unity govt is at Delhi.

read carefully Fareed Zakaria's interview with Tata and Kiss my ass. What is going on is public negotiation with Indian public which is very upset. The Indian Govt is not there. Thats what globalization means.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 01 Dec 2008 01:49

narayanan wrote:Rahul:

From what I have read, all such specialist teams (SAS, etc., where is Johann???? ) take at least 24 hours to get organized and plan before rushing to the site. There is no magic to this - they cannot expect to survive in attacking a bunch of death-facing terrorists, when the terrorists hold all the advantages. So they have to plan, and train thoroughly for the SPECIFIC site. How many hours do you think it took to get a detailed plan of the Taj and Oberoi hotels, Nariman House, etc. to them?

30 minutes into the attack, how can they be sure they have seen the full scope of the attack? What if Mumbai is a diversion to get the NSG team into the air, before the real thing emerges in Delhi?

Also, as you see, the hotels were already surrounded by the local police, the ATS, and the Navy commandos. So there was no call to come rushing in unprepared.

Given these, the fact that the NSG arrived in just NINE AND A HALF HOURS is truly FAST response. People shooting off their fingers here with expert management opinions are, well, let's say thermally inflated to the point of being able to hover

N,

You're not far from the truth given the inherent limitations of transportation infrastructure and govt information management/sharing in India, which is why the failures in crisis-response planning well predate the attack.

But it doesn’t have to be that way.

That is where much of the less glamorous hard work is involved in setting up counter-terrorism tactical teams (ie not just buying the latest and greatest kit, or thousands of hours on shooting ranges, or abseiling off roofs, etc). It involves all sorts of partnerships between ministries, and between different levels of government, and between all of these and private entities.

- As I said earlier, there has to be at least one company of NSG operators in Bombay, Calcutta, Hyderabad, and probably Bangalore and Madras as well in order to reduce response time, with one platoon within each of those companies on permanent alert.

- standing, and regularly tested arrangements in each of these areas for whatever military base is closest to keep helicopters on alert for them, whether IAF, IN, IA or Home Ministry

- standing and regularly tested procedures for crisis management in each of these cities that involve setting up a control room co-ordinating state, city, and central security forces so that chain of reporting and chain of command issues can be worked out beforehand.

- the terrorists were more familar with the Taj's layout than the police or NSG, who also had to contend with less up to date and detailed maps. This simply can not be - CT teams *must* familarise themselves with the detailed layouts of *all* high profile tatgets in their area of responsibility. That means gathering and maintaining up to date plans, generating computer or physical models, and developing assault plans for a variety of possible situations at each of them. It is *huge* job, which keeps the intelligence officers, ops officers, 2ICs and COs of tactical teams working like mad year round, as well as their liaisons in local govt, police, the national bureaucracies, chambers of commerce and industry, etc.

Edited for typos

samuel.chandra · Post by **samuel.chandra** » 01 Dec 2008 02:08

BRF rakshaks, please sign this petition. Make our rants here heard. Lets keep the fire burning under these politicians' a**.

http://www.petitiononline.com/MUMx2611/petition.html

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 01 Dec 2008 02:09

Timeline:

9:30 p.m. Wednesday: The terrorists strike Mumbai. Chief Minister Vilasrao Deshmukh is in Kerala. He is briefed about the attack. By the time he grasps the enormity of the situation, 90 minutes have gone by.

11 p.m.: Mr. Deshmukh calls Home Minister Shivraj Patil - who has now resigned from his post - and asks for NSG commandos. “How many men?” Patil asks. “200,” Mr. Deshmukh says. Mr. Patil calls NSG chief J.K. Dutt and tells him to send 200 battle-ready commandos to Mumbai.

11 p.m. to 2 a.m. Thursday: Most of the NSG men have to be roused from sleep. They don their uniforms, strap on safety gear and collect ammo and firearms. It is discovered that the plane that can take 200 men, the IL 76, is not in Delhi but Chandigarh. Someone wakes up the IL 76 pilot, the plane refueled. It finally arrives in Delhi.

5 a.m. The commandos land at Mumbai airport. By the time they board the waiting buses, it is 5:25 a.m.

6 a.m. The buses reach the designated place in south Mumbai where the commandos are briefed, divided into different groups and sent out on their mission.

7 a.m. They start their operation about nine-and-a-half hours after the terror strike.

I do not blame the NSG at all. But I think 2-3 hours could have been cut off - the 9:30 - 11 PM Wednesday took too long, and if it took less time, most would have been awake. Likewise, the plane not being there is likely something that we can do better.

But having NSG in the major metros is even better. It might take 9 hours for reinforcements to arrive from other metros, but meanwhile the local NSG is setting up.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 01 Dec 2008 02:11

From "Terror Attacks in Mumbai thread.."

Singha wrote:CM deskmukh took his son for the taj tour today. ram gopal varma who was with son also tagged along. he has clarified that he never ever intends to make a film on this issue.

Why not? I would probably prefer this guy to the WKK brigade who will equal=equal on drop of hat.

It was nauseating when I watched the movie "Kabul Express". While the two "Indian" journos get feted by Afghanis all the way from the moment they step in their land till they leave, our heros end up taking guns to impede their gracious hosts, who have watched out for them and followed their trail to save them. All to save the Paki whose ilk had screwed Afghanistan and India together. We deserve what we get, if we mistake enemies for friends and worse undermine friends in this process.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 01 Dec 2008 02:12

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 01 Dec 2008 02:19

As immediate measures, we need to ask Navy and Coast Guard to start aggressive patrolling off the Pakistani coast.

Anything that comes out of Pakistani shores must seek Indian permission to proceed and anything that comes out of Pakistani coast with young men in it must wait at pre-determined places to be boarded and searched no matter how long they have to wait. If they don't do this and are detected sink them and don't bother asking any questions.

That is the only way, our coasts can be secured.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 01 Dec 2008 02:26

HM and CWC response to terrorism:

A behind the scenes account of Patil's resignation

Walking in Sonia Gandhi said briskly, "the time for resolutions is over. It is now time for strict action." But still home minister Shivraj Patil did not get the message. He got up and said, "if my resignation will help then I am prepared to resign." but instead of doing that he went on to reel statistics of casualties by terrorist attacks under NDA rule and asked his CWC colleagues to spread this message.

This was a bit much for his colleagues who were hoping that he would do the graceful thing and resign. "Mr Home Minister, the time for all this is over. It is now time for you to resign," said Dr Karan Singh quite firmly.

This was met with a lot of cheer and a few thumped the table. Still Patil did not get the message. He began reeling off his plans for the future, only to be interrupted by Kamal Nath who reiterated what Karan Singh said, "forget your future plans. What do you plan to do now," he said. Along with Nath, both Kapil Sibal and P. Chidambaram came down heavily on Patil.

Finally Patil got the message. He scribbled a two-line resignation on the paper in front of him and handed it to the prime minister. The PM waved at it while Patil said, "actually I should resign to both of you," and looked at Sonia.

Patil was perhaps hoping that Sonia would save him, as usual. She said nothing. That was when he finally got the message. The next morning Patil called on the PM and handed his resignation. This was promptly accepted.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 01 Dec 2008 02:30

brihaspati wrote:Shreemanji,
For "God's sake" have you ever had really tried to mobilize the "commons" for something?

No. But I do not claim that expertise. Yet, where one is now, does not describe one's past. Internet affords us a certain amount of anonymity, and only the strength of ones arguments is relevant. Any amount of real life experience, if it does not translate in quality of your argument, makes no difference.

There is a difference between sarcasm and abuse. Sarcasm is often essential to motivate someone to question their own beliefs.

The terror issue is not a simple one, it is complex, ...

We need to do as much as possible to divide and confuse the "enemy", ...

I do not disagree with much of what you write. But you do not discount the efficacy of the use of appropriate action at the time of one's own choice either. Lack of ANY action will make all of the "chanakya-niti" irrelevant. No one is advocating action now, just *some time* before the next large event.

Perhaps you don't need convincing, but many do, of the fact that though "they" appear to have hues and grades of "enmity", there is no real distinction, nor will there ever be.

Having said that, the intent never was to offend.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 01 Dec 2008 02:30

Samuel.chandra:

Your petition has a double-negative title. Too complicated.

How about: Citizens For Ending Pakistani Terrorism

So positive.