Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

[ramana]

Russian expert's view.

[darshan]

deleted.

[faraz]

Did you hear this in Zaid Hamid Interview ? That bugger said "Kurkuraa" instead of Karkare.

B@$t@rd Hamid did not even do his home-work properly.

Shivraj 'nutless' Patel

Patel?

[ramana]

Patil. Did you need to confirm that?

--------
We need to distinguish between terrorism and covert military attack. The former is crime while the latter is an act of war. What happened in Mumbai is an act of war not a criminal act same as 9/11 attack on USA.

[Mathew G]

I have lurked for long...so my first post in these times of crisis. I think the most practical way forward is to beat Pak economically.

Already done that.

1. Invest heavily in weapons, this will trigger an arms race. Ultimately they will go broke(r)...since they are already broke. We can afford a much larger % of GDP on weapons. Already they spend nothing on educ, health or anything worthwhile. This is essentially how the US beat USSR.

Already doing that.

2. Cut the water flows to Pak. When they complain open it a little bit...then repeat procedure. Over a year's time this will cut their food supplies...and wreak havoc in their economy.

Good suggestion. But only innocent folks will suffer. The RAPEs are despotic; water shortages only hit them at the end. Just look at Zimbabwe.

3. Work on breaking up Pak. Support Balochi and other movements. As the state becomes smaller...it becomes weaker. Keep them busy fighting within themselves and suppressing the breakaway provinces. Immediately provide a billion $ in aid to balochistan for weapons purchases. Initiate other proxy wars with large amounts of $$.

Already underway by the US. The core strategy of new US president elect is to break up Pak.

4. I don’t think amassing troops is useful at the LOC, unless it is for real.

I don’t agree. Quite to the contrary; it will be a distraction for TSP to keep its troops engaged at both sides of the border. They will have limited time to plan/train other terrorists.

5. Hang this Afzal guy immediately....it will send a message.

No. He is worth more alive for intel gathering. It’s not necessarily that he will mention everything in first few days.

6. Open up Kashmir for Hindus to buy property. This will require a parliamentary action.

This is long overdue. It should have been done a long time ago. We even read of reports of Muslims buying lands throughout India (I know in Cochin with fake cash); so why should GoI discriminate on the basis of religion?

[Nayak]

Good hardhitting Editorial from Haaretz.

All you armchair 'experts' please read -

A little modesty wouldn't hurt

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1042341.html

By Haaretz Editorial
Tags: terror, Israel News

The terrorist attacks in Mumbai, which left 174 people dead and hundreds wounded, also claimed at least six Israeli and Jewish victims. Naturally, the event evoked sorrow over the loss of life, tinged with rage toward the terrorists who targeted Chabad House, which is run by an organization whose offices constitute a meeting place for Israelis and Jews traveling abroad. To our regret, these obligatory reactions were accompanied by shrill voices that emitted an odious scent of patronization and by baseless populist declarations.

Israeli officials who earn their living from defense contracting and security consultations were quick to criticize India's security forces and to dish out advice on how to deal with terrorist attacks. An outstanding example was Minister Rafi Eitan, who blamed the Indians' shoddy preparation for such scenarios. This is the same Eitan who, during his service in the Israeli defense establishment, embroiled Israel in the Pollard affair, tripping up the Jewish spy in a case that got him a life sentence. Eitan could learn a thing or two from the Indian home minister, who oversees most of his country's security agencies. He resigned from his post after accepting responsibility for the lack of prior intelligence on the terrorist cell as well as for the slow response to the attack.

Unfortunately, no country, including Israel, is immune to terrorism, and no elite unit can guarantee the safe rescue of hostages taken captive by fanatic terrorists, who embarked on their mission with the aim of killing and ready to be killed themselves. Even countries with the most advanced security and intelligence services, like the United States, cannot thwart terror attacks or prevent the mass slaughter of civilians, as happened on September 11, 2001.

It is more convenient to recall the 1976 Entebbe rescue operation than to remember the very same, vaunted Sayeret Matkal unit storming a school in Ma'alot, which had been taken over by a group of terrorists two years earlier. The operation left 22 children dead. Less than one year later, the attempt by Sayeret commandos to rescue hostages held in Tel Aviv's Savoy Hotel left eight civilians dead, and also cost the lives of paratroop brigade commander Uzi Yairi and Sayeret soldier Itamar Ben David. In October 1994, the soldier Nachshon Wachsman was killed as Sayeret Matkal forces broke into the house where he was being held hostage by terrorists. IDF Captain Nir Poraz was killed in the operation and seven soldiers were wounded. Meanwhile, Gilad Shalit has been held captive for over two years just a few kilometers from the heart of the country.

The Foreign Ministry in Jerusalem acted commendably in distancing itself from the criticism, releasing a statement that read: "In Israel, we are convinced that the Indian security forces did everything in order to prevent harm from coming to the hostages and civilians during the storming of Chabad House." The ministry emphasized that relations between Israel and India withstood a test during the tragic events in Mumbai. It would behoove a government official to call out certain politicians like Housing Minister Ze'ev Boim, who proposed that thousands of Jewish institutions around the world, including Chabad centers, be added to the long list of Israeli missions that are outfitted with security details from the Shin Bet security service.

Terrorist attacks are a cause for sorrow and rage, not for arrogant statements and impossible ideas.

[cbelwal]

I dont think that is a stupid assesment by any standards. He is forewarning about things to come in the next 15-20 years. Thing are only going to get worse. Rajeev is spot on when he says India was attacked for its wealth and the same thing is happening again. What use is putting money in education, research and housing when someone is going to come and loot it anyway. In the Indian context a strong military should be the pre requisite before money is diverted to education, housing and non defense related research.

The first action government should do is make a concerted attempt to make the citizenry apt in firearms. A more liberal firearm policy is needed. We need a 'Salwa Judum' in every nook and corner of the country. Today every criminal and terrorist worth his name is armed with tremendous firepower, more weapons will not lead to a catastrophic situation as the license bureaucracy and their supporters will like to have us beleive. With serious attempts to weaken the military under way and tremendous corruption among bureaucrats the last body the citizenry can trust with their life is the government.

In my opinion, that is a very bleak and stupid assessment by Rajeev Srinivasan. Yes, we are bleeding but calling that we are on verge of collapse is going too far, way too far. There are several things wrong with current situation, but there are several things right too. Rajeev needs to go back and read up history in each decade of 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. Each decade brought a challenge. So will this decade and the next. Each generation had a challenge, has a challenge and will have a challenge.

[Nayak]

STEYN: Probing of Doomsday
Mark Steyn
Monday, December 1, 2008

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/200 ... -doomsday/

COMMENTARY:

When terrorists attack, media analysts go into Sherlock Holmes mode, metaphorically prowling the crime scene for footprints, as if the way to solve the mystery is to add up all the clues.

The Bombay gunmen seized British and American tourists. Therefore, it must be an attack on Westerners!

Not so, said Newsweek's Fareed Zakaria. If they had wanted to do that, they would have hit the Hilton or the Marriott or some other target-rich chain hotel. The Taj and the Oberoi are both Indian-owned, and popular watering holes with wealthy Indians.

OK, how about this group that's claimed credit for the attack? The Deccan Mujahideen. As a thousand TV anchors asked on Wednesday night, "What do we know about them?"

Er, well, nothing. Because they didn't exist until they issued the press release. "Deccan" is the name of the vast plateau that covers most of the triangular peninsula that forms the lower half of the Indian Subcontinent. It comes from the Prakrit word "dakkhin, which means "south," which means nothing at all. "Deccan Mujahideen" is like calling yourself the "Continental Shelf Liberation Front."

OK. So does that mean this operation was linked to al Qaeda? Well, no. Not if by "linked to" you mean a wholly owned subsidiary coordinating its activities with the corporate head office.

It's not an either/or scenario, it's all of the above. Yes, the terrorists targeted locally owned hotels. But they singled out Britons and Americans as hostages. Yes, they attacked prestige city landmarks like the Victoria Terminus, one of the most splendid and historic railway stations in the world. But they also attacked an obscure Jewish community center. The Islamic imperialist project is a totalitarian ideology: It is at war with Hindus, Jews, Americans, Britons - everything that is other.

In the 10 months before this week's atrocity, Muslim terrorists killed more than 200 people in India and no one paid much attention. Just business as usual, alas. In Bombay, the perpetrators were cannier. They launched a multiple indiscriminate assault on soft targets, and then in the confusion began singling out A-list prey: Not just wealthy Western tourists, but local orthodox Jews and municipal law enforcement.

They drew prominent officials to selected sites, and then gunned down the head of the anti-terrorism squad and two of his most senior lieutenants. They attacked a hospital, the place you're supposed to take the victims to, thereby destabilizing the city's emergency-response system.

And, aside from dozens of corpses, they were rewarded with instant, tangible, economic damage to India: the Bombay Stock Exchange was still closed on Friday, and the England cricket team canceled their tour (a shameful act).

What's relevant about the Mumbai model is that it would work in just about any second-tier city in any democratic state: Seize multiple soft targets and overwhelm the municipal infrastructure to the point where any emergency plan will simply be swamped by the sheer scale of events. Try it in, say, New Orleans. All you need is the manpower.

Given the numbers of gunmen, clearly there was a significant local component. On the other hand, whether or not Pakistan's deeply sinister spy agency ISI had its fingerprints all over it, it would seem unlikely there was no external involvement. After all, if you look at every jihad front from the London Tube bombings to the Iraqi insurgency, you'll find local lads and wily outsiders: That's pretty much a given.

But we're in danger of missing the forest for the trees. The forest is the ideology. It's the ideology that determines whether you can find enough young hotshot guys in the neighborhood willing to strap on a suicide belt or (rather more promising as a long-term career) at least grab an AK and shoot up a hotel lobby. Or, if active terrorists are a bit thin on the ground, whether you can count at least on some degree of broader support on the ground.

You're sitting in some distant foreign capital but you're minded to pull off a Bombay-style operation in, say, Amsterdam or Manchester or Toronto. Where would you start? Easy. You know the radical mosques, and the other ideological front organizations. You've already made landfall.

It's missing the point to get into debates about whether this is the "Deccan Mujahideen" or the ISI or al Qaeda or Lashkar-e-Taiba. That's a reductive argument. It could be all or none of them.

The ideology has been so successfully seeded around the world that nobody needs a memo from corporate HQ to act: There are so many of these subgroups and individuals that they intersect across the planet in a million different ways. It's not the Cold War, with a small network of deep sleepers being directly controlled by Moscow. There are no membership cards, only an ideology. That's what radicalized hitherto moderate Muslim communities from Indonesia to the Central Asian stans to Yorkshire and co-opted what started out as more or less conventional nationalist struggles in the Caucasus and the Balkans into mere tentacles of the global jihad.

Many of us, including the incoming Obama administration, look at this as a law-enforcement matter. Bombay is a crime scene, so let's surround the perimeter with yellow police tape, send in the forensics squad and wait for the district attorney to file charges.

A photograph that appeared in many of the British papers, taken by a Reuters man, was captioned by the news agency as follows: "A suspected gunman walks outside the premises of the Chhatrapati Shivaji Terminus or Victoria Terminus railway station." The photo of the "suspected gunman" showed a man holding a gun. We don't know much about him - he might be Muslim or Episcopalian, he might be an impoverished uneducated victim of Western colonialist economic oppression or a former vice-president of Lehman Bros embarking on an exciting midlife career change. But one thing we ought to be able to say for certain is that a man pointing a gun is not a "suspected gunman" but a gunman.

"This kind of silly political correctness infects reporters and news services world-wide," wrote John Hinderaker of Powerline. "They think they're being scrupulous - the man hasn't been convicted of being a gunman yet! - when in fact they're just being foolish. But the irrational conviction that nothing can be known unless it has been determined by a court and jury isn't just silly. It's dangerous."

Just so. This isn't law enforcement but an ideological assault - and we're fighting the symptoms, not the cause. Islamic imperialists want an Islamic society, not just in Palestine and Kashmir but in the Netherlands and Britain, too. Their chances of getting it will be determined by the ideology's advance among the general Muslim population, and by the general Muslim population's demographic advance among everybody else.

So George W. Bush is history, and we have a new president who promises to heal the planet, and yet the jihadists seem not to have got the Obama message that there are no enemies, just friends we haven't yet held talks without preconditions with.

This isn't about repudiating the Bush years, or withdrawing from Iraq, or even liquidating Israel. It's bigger than that. And if you don't have a strategy for beating back the ideology, you'll lose.

Whoops, my apologies. I mean "suspected ideology."

Mark Steyn is the author of the New York Times best-seller "America Alone" and is an internationally syndicated columnist.

Mark Steyn calls a spade a spade.

[Raghav K]

Folks, Please add your comments here and support Mumbai.

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-155739

[Mort Walker]

Systematic Failure Seen in India's Response to Attack

There seem to be some elements of truth in the article.

[Dipanker]

Nuclear umbrella or not, we still need to respond, if don't respond and make them pay the price then there won't be an end Paki sponsered terrorism.

[Nayak]

NYTimes-uvacha

Panel Fears Use of Unconventional Weapon

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/01/washi ... ?ref=world

Article Tools Sponsored By
By ERIC SCHMITT
Published: November 30, 2008

WASHINGTON — An independent commission has concluded that terrorists will most likely carry out an attack with biological, nuclear or other unconventional weapons somewhere in the world in the next five years unless the United States and its allies act urgently to prevent that.

In a report to be released this week, the Congressionally mandated panel found that with countries like Iran and North Korea pursuing nuclear weapons programs, and with the risk of poorly secured biological pathogens growing, unconventional threats are fast outpacing the defenses arrayed to confront them.

“America’s margin of safety is shrinking, not growing,” the bipartisan panel concluded.

Prepared before last week’s deadly terrorist attacks in Mumbai — which American officials say were most likely carried out by Pakistani militant groups based in Kashmir — the report also singled out Pakistan as a top security priority for the coming Obama administration.

“Were one to map terrorism and weapons of mass destruction today, all roads would intersect in Pakistan,” the report states, citing the country’s terrorist haven along the border with Afghanistan and its tense relations with nuclear rival India.

“Pakistan is an ally, but there is a grave danger it could also be an unwitting source of a terrorist attack on the United States — possibly with weapons of mass destruction,” the report said.

The report is the result of a six-month study by the Commission on the Prevention of Weapons of Mass Destruction Proliferation and Terrorism, which Congress created last spring in keeping with one of the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission.

The nine-member panel received classified briefings, conducted several site visits, including meetings in Russia, and interviewed more than 250 government and independent experts in several countries.

The New York Times obtained a copy of the report’s 18-page executive summary. Details from draft chapters of the report on the threat of bioterrorism were published Sunday by The Washington Post.

The panel’s 13 recommendations focus on fighting the threat of bioterrorism, including improved bioforensic capabilities, and strengthening international organizations, like the International Atomic Energy Agency, to address the nuclear threat. It also calls for a comprehensive approach for dealing with Pakistan.

Over all, the findings and recommendations seek to serve as a road map for the Obama administration.

“Unless the world community acts decisively and with great urgency, it is more likely than not that a weapon of mass destruction will be used in a terrorist attack somewhere in the world by the end of 2013,” the report states in the opening sentence of the executive summary.

Commission officials said that date is a judgment based on scores of interviews and classified briefings conducted by members of the panel — led by former Senators Bob Graham, Democrat of Florida, and Jim Talent, Republican of Missouri — but does not represent a new formal assessment by the United States intelligence agencies.

Several of the recommendations are not new and have been pursued with varying degrees of success by the Bush administration. On Pakistan, for example, the panel urges the Obama administration to work with Pakistan to eliminate that country’s terrorist havens, secure its nuclear and biological materials, counter extremist ideologies and constrain a “nascent nuclear arms race in Asia.”

But the panel is banking on the fact that some of its Democratic members — including Wendy Sherman, Graham Allison and Tim Roemer— have advised President-elect Barack Obama on national security issues, and could serve in senior positions in his administration.

Ms. Sherman, for instance, is one of two former Clinton administration officials leading the transition team at the State Department for Mr. Obama.

In its wide-ranging findings, the panel faulted the Bush administration for failing to devote the same degree of high-level attention and resources to the threat of a bioterrorist attack as it has to prevent nuclear proliferation and a nuclear attack.

The report calls for conducting a major review of the program to secure dangerous pathogens and tighten oversight of high-containment laboratories.

The commission urges the Obama administration to work to halt the Iranian and North Korean nuclear weapons programs, backing up any diplomatic initiatives with “the credible threat of direct action” — code for military action, a commission official said.

Two weeks ago, the International Atomic Energy Agency reported that Iran had produced roughly enough nuclear material to make, with added purification, a single atom bomb.

The commission also criticized the administration and Congress for not organizing themselves more effectively to combat the threat of unconventional weapons. The report recommended a single White House-level office or individual responsible for directing the nation’s policy to prevent the spread of unconventional weapons and their possible use by terrorists.

Like the 9/11 Commission, this panel called for overhauling the jurisdiction of the Congressional committee that reviews the proliferation of unconventional weapons. “Congressional oversight is dysfunctional,” the report concluded.

[Mathew G]

{UTTERLY OFFENSIVE AND FALSE REPORT DELETED. DON'T POST FROM "ZAKA" HERE AGAIN, PLEASE.
Please see below why what you posted is provably malicious (not on ur part, but on the part of "Zaka"). Please try not to be so gullible in future.

Not everything that foreigners write is true, and what Indians write from India is not untrue. Indians are not incompetent or fools, though one wonders about that when one sees how gullible some are in accepting malicious lies from foreigners}

[Rahul M]

de-nuke pakistan as the first step.

So how is that done?

it's not easy, nor will it be quick.

but if we throw away some of the strategic baggage from the US-Soviet confrontation from our thinking we might just get around to a plausible route of action.

For a start we would require an elaborate, meticulous intelligence effort with full political backing from the political executive for at least 1-2 years, probably more.

The questions needed to be answered being :

>> How many pakistani nukes are there ?
a ball park figure of the max number possible can be arrived at using the figures for fissile material production.
more precise information has to be pieced together from people once related to the pak program but who have since moved away.
This assumes a level of leeway and a mandate R&AW hasn't seen since after the IKG days.

also vital information would be information on convoy procedures of paki nukes. I would assume this is already available. If so, the sats can be used to good effect.

there are many ways of gathering info, with the increasing of islamisation of pak forces, false-flag approach readily suggests itself, to name but one.

An alternative question might be
How many delivery vehicles are there ?

Since this number is likely to be much more than that of the nukes this angle might not be practical.

>>Next question, in what form are they ?
are they fully mated to delivery platform, kept on a few hours stand-by or even more.

this information would be used to prioritise the targeting, mated platforms and air-bases with nuke tasked F-16 squadrons being the first priority. followed by warheads completed but not mated and then others where the cores are kept separate.
if the total number itself is small, then this bit of info has less importance.

>>Very Important, Where are those ?
this is perhaps the most important question of all, and would require a painstaking book-keeping effort to keep track of each and every deployable nuke.
standard op procedures would have to be calibrated,

All the types of intel, HUMINT,ELINT and Sats would be necessary.

one point that makes such a tagging probable is the fact that given the current situation in their country where the army is being targeted day in and day out, TSPA won't move around their nukes too much, it's too much of a risk. the escorts alone would light it up like a christmas tree and attract jehadi attention.
the chances of the paki jewels being in the FATA/NWFP is bleak, that's not to say zero but the number certainly won't be high, if at all.
It is most likely that paki nukes and MRBMs are spread around the TSPA strongholds like the cantonment towns of rawalpindi and quetta.

>>How to take them out ?
This is a question best left to the professionals but I believe that with some effort, the Indian military machine has the ability to hit 30-35 targets simultaneously with some redundancy thrown in. a simultaneous attack on all targets with backing from EW platforms would be able to confuse the paki radar network enough to buy the requisite time.
the confusion need only be in place for the time required for the missiles to find their target.
given the transit times in the Indo-pak context, a prepared Indian force would be able to deliver its blow before the TSP launch orders come in and the birds are launched.(which takes more time)
didn't we hear something about DRDO bunker-busters ?

[anishns]

Suhel Seth on the roll
Along with Arun Shourie

Watch this one guys!!!
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/vi ... x?id=45735

[youtube]<div style="width:432px;height:402px;float:left;background-color:#ffffff;border:1;border-color:Blue;" id="videoplayer"> <iframe src="http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/vi ... tart=false" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" frameborder="0" style="background-color:transparent;background-image:url(http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/vi ... s/new_.gif);" height="402" width="432"></iframe> </div>[/youtube]

sorry if submitted earlier

[enqyoob]

Come on, Matthew G! Enthusiasm to post anything and everything you find is one thing, but could you please not use a LITTLE BIT OF BRAINS before posting offensive garbage?

These pr1cks should be shot - I mean the "ZAKA" bast@rds. Read the hospital doctors' report in INDIA to understand how the Israeli family died. Were you not aware of this report? If so, how did you not try reconciling it with your newly-found ZAKA "intelligence"?

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/nov/30m ... orture.htm

Doctors shocked at hostages's torture

Krishnakumar P and Vicky Nanjappa in Mumbai | November 30, 2008 | 19:53 IST

They said that just one look at the bodies of the dead hostages as well as terrorists showed it was a battle of attrition that was fought over three days at the Oberoi and the Taj hotels in Mumbai.

Doctors working in a hospital where all the bodies, including that of the terrorists, were taken said they had not seen anything like this in their lives.

"Bombay has a long history of terror. I have seen bodies of riot victims, gang war and previous terror attacks like bomb blasts. But this was entirely different. It was shocking and disturbing," a doctor said.

Asked what was different about the victims of the incident, another doctor said: "It was very strange. I have seen so many dead bodies in my life, and was yet traumatised. A bomb blast victim's body might have been torn apart and could be a very disturbing sight. But the bodies of the victims in this attack bore such signs about the kind of violence of urban warfare that I am still unable to put my thoughts to words," he said.

Asked specifically if he was talking of torture marks, he said: "It was apparent that most of the dead were tortured. What shocked me were the telltale signs showing clearly how the hostages were executed in cold blood," one doctor said.

The other doctor, who had also conducted the post-mortem of the victims, said: "Of all the bodies, the Israeli victims bore the maximum torture marks. It was clear that they were killed on the 26th itself. It was obvious that they were tied up and tortured before they were killed. It was so bad that I do not want to go over the details even in my head again," he said.


Corroborating the doctors' claims about torture was the information that the Intelligence Bureau had about the terror plan. "During his interrogation, Ajmal Kamal said they were specifically asked to target the foreigners, especially the Israelis," an IB source said.

It is also said that the Israeli hostages were killed on the first day as keeping them hostage for too long would have focused too much international attention. "They also might have feared the chances of Israeli security agencies taking over the operations at the Nariman House," he reasoned.

On the other hand, there is enough to suggest that the terrorists also did not meet a clean, death.

The doctors who conducted the post mortem said the bodies of the terrorists were beyond recognition. "Their faces were beyond recognition."

There was no way of identifying them," he said. Asked how, if this is the case, they knew the bodies were indeed those of the terrorists, he said: "The security forces that brought the bodies told us that those were the bodies of the terrorists," he said, adding there was no other way they could have identified the bodies.

An intelligence agency source added: "One of the terrorists was shot through either eye."

A senior National Security Guard officer, who had earlier explained the operation in detail to rediff.com, said the commandos went all out after they ascertained that there were no more hostages left. When asked if the commandos attempted to capture them alive at that stage, he replied: "Unko bachana kaun chahega (Who will want to save them)?"

There is another grim piece of evidence. The 2-year-old was snatched and taken away in the nick of time by the brave Indian nanny who took an incredible risk in doing so. But the toddler's trouser legs were soaked in BLOOD! How could that be, could you please ask yourself? That happened in the first minutes of the attack. The toddler stabbed one of the terrorists? Or was it because the terrorists had started torturing his mother and it was her blood?

And the parents survived 3 days, doing fine, until they were shot by INDIAN RESCUERS? You are a BRF member, yet didn't find anything ludicrous about this as you pasted the ZAKA misinformation here?

[kobe]

New Delhi, November 30: In a move entailing payout of Rs 40-50 crore, Sahara India said it would pay five times the gross salaries of each martyr to their families for the next ten years, while paying tribute to the security personnel who sacrificed their lives in the Mumbai terror attacks.

Subrata Roy-led Sahara India Pariwar said in a statement that as an expression of its emotional empathy and solidarity, it has decided to pay per month an amount equivalent to five times the gross salaries of the security personnel who sacrificed their lives, for the next 10 years, to their respective families.

If their children do not turn 21 after 10 years, the payment shall continue until they reach that age, it added.
(The Indian Express)

[Nayak]

Menon is reporting to head-master obama and presenting a chit that one of the nursery students and the teacher's pet pinched him on the musharraf.

Can it get more pathetic than this ?

[Mathew G]

{obscene response deleted}
Don't shoot the messenger.
{No, but I don't see any reason to tolerate asshol*s who use obscenities against me. What you posted was a lot of pakistan, but now you have demonstrated where it came from. This forum is titled "Bharat-Rakshak". When you post something that says that Indian rescuers killed Israeli hostages, you cause a lot of hurt. I PROVED TO YOU why your post was crap, and your response proves what you are.

After "posting since 1999", you didn't feel like you should hesitate a bit before insulting and accusing Indian security forces who risked their life? }

[Mort Walker]

N^3,

Agreed.

More than likely out of respect for the woman someone at the hospital morgue wrapped the body of the wife Rivka.

Mathew,

Alot of people are seething mad about this and more such stories/links as the one you posted rubs salt in their wounds. We can ignore the Islamofacists, but from a friendly country hurts.

[Nayak]

Wow N^3-guru, you are quick.

I never saw such a quick motion scissor-hand operations on the dork's post.

[Nayak]

The mumbai fire-brigade had only two bullet-proof jackets for it's 100 personnel on the spot. Emergency services sucked. Those guys were pathetically under-equipped to deal with such situations. Instead of commending the fantastic work done by the fire-men, media dorks are raising issues like the fire-dept responded too late to the tragedy and speculating if more lives could have been said.

The fire chief said point-blank that ATS and security guys did not give the go-ahead because of the unfolding situation and yet these dorks are second-guessing and adding fud to the facts.

[Johann]

Avram, frankly your comments are clouded in half-truths.

Apparently only 6 policemen at CST were armed. One RPF constable ML Chaudhary returned fire with his 0.303 but it failed to work after two rounds. M.L. Chaudhary died in the line of duty.

Does every US city have a fully equipped equivalent of the NSG around ? No. It's just the FBI HRT and Seal Team 5.

None of you have confronted anything like this. Not even in your worst scenarios. The fact is our army has fought and won major wars against an equally well armed and trained adversary. Our IS forces have a slew of tactical successes in COIN ops from J&K to the North East.

The supercilious, sneering, arrogant and condescending attitude of the Israelis (of Jenin and Ma'alot notoriety) , the Americans (through their journalists and self-appointed experts - forgetting their stellar performance at Waco and Ruby Ridge as well as the complete failure to deal properly with Columbine or Virginia Tech) and of course the Russians (of Beslan, Budyonnovsk, Kizlyar-Pervomayskoye and Moscow theatre fame) trumpeting their purported superiority in these types of operations is wholly unwarranted.

As far as intelligence goes - isn't it odd that nobody in the UK that great bastion of contempt for Indians was able to prevent either the 7/11 attacks and the Glasgow airport attacks - why hasn't the great BBC asked why there was such incompetence in their own intelligence services ?

This is not to sugar coat or ignore any shortcomings and failings in India. It is, however, to say categorically, that the critics of India's handling of things are no more competent and the record may actually show them to be less able to handle such a multiple hostage event.

Sanjay,

This is a very painful time for all Indians, and anyone in the world who has been to Bombay.

However, I think that this is one of the rare times that you are off your mark here.

Avram's tone may seem insensitive, but as you point out, the whether the police at CST couldnt or wouldnt shoot back, the outcome was the same. How can any observer, Indian or otherwise describe the authorities of a country and city repeatedly targetted by terror who place policemen who lack serviceable weapons on duty as serious about the threat?

If you dont think the Americans, British and Israeli publics havent ripped their government agencies to shreds for failures during terrorist incidents, you are sorely mistaken.

The Israelis have come a long, long way from the disaster at Ma'alot (34 years ago!), and that happened in part because of public outrage, and the scrutiny that followed.

The PLO/DFLP/PFLP attempted to carry out several seaborne terrorist attacks on Israeli cities much like the one in Mumbai. They did not fail by accident.

Gunmen just dont get very far in to Israel from outside its borders anymore.

7/11 was a failure of intelligence, and the media have regularly conducted investigative reports that revealed for example that the plotters had been briefly surveilled beforehand, and then dropped as 'unimportant'.

Remedies have been applied, such as the Rich Picture Project have helped ensure that there have not been *any* terrorist inflicted fatalities in the UK since 7/11, despite the 3,000+ suspected individuals who have received some level of jihadi training and indoctrination, and several times that many sympathisers. For that matter, it is remarkable that *all* the plots between 9-11 and 7/11 were broken and or deterred.

The Americans have endlessly dissected the failures on 9/11, and the Virginia Tech shootings. The police department at VT for example has come in for particularly harsh criticism for its lack of preparedness for such a situation, and its poor response in the event. Despite that, the police response was decisive - when they showed up 12 minutes after the shooting began Cho shot himself.

You ask rhetorically, does every American city have a fully equipped equivalent of the NSG around? They dont need to. Most American cities have a sufficiently well equipped and trained SWAT team that would be able to arrive on the scene within 15 minutes of a 9-11 call, and while not at the same level as the HRT, or Delta, would be able to provide an effective immediate response (thanks to the lessons learned). In the event that they needed more manpower they would be backed up by SWAT teams from surrounding cities. This however has taken almost 2 decades, and hundreds of millions of dollars to develop. In fact in order to reduce response times, the LAPD has authorised senior police officers on patrol to carry assault rifles to provide immediate back up after incidents such as the North Hollywood bank robbery of 1994 where two criminals were equipped with Ak-47s and body armour.

The Indian central, state and city governments have been hit many more times by urban terrorism than the West but are far less prepared to prevent or handle attacks. How much better is Mumbai prepared than it was in 1993 when it was first attacked?

That is *not* a reflection on the people who serve on the front lines.

I'm well aware that for all the challenges India has faced, it hasnt lost any territory to insurgents or invaders since 1962. This is a great testament to what India can achieve when there is real seriousness of intent. 99% of the Indian public would rather go to hell and back than allow the map to be redrawn by force.

However protecting civilian lives and limiting civilian death toll from terrorism and insurgency is much harder than protecting territory. I have lived in India, and frequently travel there. Frankly, nothing I've seen suggests that the state is particularly sensitive to the loss of lives or property from man made disasters - and this lack of sensitivity is one of the greatest disapointments to most Indian citizens. Civil society hasnt yet integrated to the point that politicians fear the consequences of such lapses.

[milindc]

Per TimesNow, RR Patil to tender resignation

btw, TimesNow gets highest TRP from English News channel for its coverage of 'War on Mumbai'
This per Economic Times paper edition

[samuel.chandra]

US is making them talk: Kuwait/UAE/Saudi/Rice/God everyone is talking to us trying to calm us down. Massa is making a fool of us. And by "us" i mean the janta. They know they can control the government. They cannot do anything about the people. Everyone is collaborating on this issue so that Congress can back down without losing the coming election. We should not allow them to think we are that gullible. Lets not give in so easily this time.

And now, i am going to shamelessly plug the petition in here. Signatures have grown a lot in half a day. I was expecting to reach 1000 by the end of this week (first fax to Congress/BJP and other parties) but i think we will reach that number by mid-week from what we can see.

http://www.petitiononline.com/MUMx2611/petition.html


Sanjay, will get back to you later. Got to catch some sleep.


[quote="SureshP"][quote]Crime against humanity, Islam: Kuwait’s Deputy PM


[quote]UAE Cabinet denounces Mumbai attacks


[quote]Saudi Arabia conveys condolences

[sum]

Link

Lashkar honed fidayeen skills in Srinagar attacks

Praveen Swami

Jammu and Kashmir Police trained local assets to defeat terror offensive

MUMBAI: For years before a Lashkar-e-Taiba squad executed last week’s massacre in Mumbai, the terrorist group’s fidayeen were honing their skills in Jammu and Kashmir.

Government buildings and military facilities, but also hotels and marketplaces, were among the targets of a wave of fidayeen terror that began in 1999.

But by 2006, the Jammu and Kashmir Police had succeeded in developing tactics that made fidayeen attacks increasingly difficult for terrorist groups — a success that holds out lessons for police forces across India.

Lashkar fidayeen staged their first attack in Jammu and Kashmir in the midst of the Kargil war, hitting the sector headquarters of the Border Security Force in Bandipora. NSG commandos eventually succeeded in rescuing the hostages, but the BSF’s prestige took a severe blow.

In 2001, the Jaish-e-Mohammad staged another spectacular fidayeen attack at the Jammu and Kashmir Legislative Assembly —a dry run, many experts believe, for the storming of Parliament House in New Delhi later that year. Significantly, though, the Jammu and Kashmir Police succeeded in rescuing the politicians inside the Assembly complex unhurt, and succeeded in eliminating the terrorists.

Later, in 2002, the Lashkar staged a dramatic fidayeen attack on the Akshardham temple in Gandhinagar, killing at least 29 people — the organisation’s first major attack outside Jammu and Kashmir.

In empirical terms, the military impact of the fidayeen operations was negligible. Between 1999 and 2002, the worst years of Lashkar fidayeen violence, less than 200 people died in these attacks — a small proportion of overall fatalities in Jammu and Kashmir, which at the time ran into several thousand a year.
Propaganda value

But the propaganda value of such attacks was huge: fidayeen attacks, the Lashkar understand, was in their essence a form of performance propaganda.

Fidayeen attacks are not new. More than a 1,000 years ago, in 1090, radicals led by the mystic Hasan Ibn al-Sabah waged a ruthless war to depose the Seljuk monarchs and restore a Shia caliphate.

Historian Amin Maalouf has recorded that al-Sabhah saw killing “not merely a means to disposing of an enemy, but was intended primarily as a twofold lesson for the public: first, the punishment of the victim and, second, the heroic sacrifice of the executioner, who was called the fida’i [plural fida’in, or fedayeen], or ‘suicide commando,’ because he was almost always cut down on the spot.” Groups in areas from Palestine to Sri Lanka have used similar tactics in the centuries since.

In March 2004, two Lashkar fidayeen attacked the offices of the Press Information Bureau and the Jammu and Kashmir Directorate of Information in Srinagar. Later, in April 2005, the Lashkar staged an attack on the Tourist Reception Centre in Srinagar, just a day before the facility was to see the first journey of the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad bus service.

Just weeks later, in June, two fidayeen attacked the Dashnami Akhara Building, owned by a Hindu religious institution. That November, four Lashkar fidayeen hit the Palladium Cinema complex, occupied by CRPF personnel. Like the Budhshah Chowk attack, the Palladium Cinema attack achieved little.

Srinagar saw its last significant fidayeen-initiated siege in October, 2006, when terrorists targeted the New Standard Hotel in the city’s commercial hub. All three terrorists involved in the attack were shot dead in an overnight operation that began after the police evacuated all hostages successfully.

Each time, the tactics used were near-identical to those seen in Mumbai. Lashkar fidayeen would attempt to so overwhelm security at the entrance to the facility by firing indiscriminately and throwing grenades. Once inside, they would seek to prolong the siege as long as possible. Each time, the organisation was able to intimidate civil society, by demonstrating an apparent ability to kill at will.
Lessons learnt

“We knew we needed to devise new tactics to deal with the fidayeen,” says the former Kashmir Range Inspector-General of Police, K. Rajendra — himself critically injured in a 2006 fidayeen attack targeting a political rally.

“We set about creating local resources,” he explained, “rather than having to bring in an outside force hours later. For example, we developed rapid-intervention teams, who were trained in room-intervention tactics by the National Security Guard. We also worked systematically to improve intelligence.”

Fidayeen units continued to be trained by the Lashkar, though. June 2007, an arrested Lashkar operative — Sialkot resident Mohammad Yasin Jat — told the Jammu and Kashmir police that the Lashkar was training over a 100 fidayeen at four camps in Pakistan-administered Kashmir.

“Our lessons were painful,” says the former Kashmir-zone Inspector-General of Police S.M. Sahai, who replaced Mr. Rajendra, “but I think we learned them well. The Lashkar could still hit Srinagar or Jammu today, but they know they will achieve relatively little before they are cut down.”

Impressive J&K police....

[sum]

Link

Pakistan now holds the key to probe: investigators

Praveen Swami

— PHOTO: AFP

PEACE MARCH: Activists hold up banners and placards during a peace rally in memory of those killed in the Mumbai attacks, outside the Taj Mahal hotel on Sunday.

MUMBAI: Investigators probing last week’s massacre in Mumbai have reached a point where little progress can now be made unless Pakistan arrests key suspects based in that country, police and intelligence officials have told The Hindu.

India has so far assembled several pieces of evidence that link the Mumbai fidayeen attack to Lashkar-e-Taiba commanders based in Muridke near Lahore in Pakistan.

Much of the evidence rests on the testimony of arrested Lashkar terrorist Amjad Amir Kamaal, a resident of the small village of Faridkot in the Okara district of Pakistan’s Punjab province.

According to Kamaal, the 10-man Lashkar fidayeen team, of which he was a part, left Karachi on a small boat, and then boarded the merchant vessel al-Hussaini. After encountering Indian Coast Guard vessels on February 19, the team hijacked the Kuber, a Porbandar-based fishing boat that had been blown off course.

Kamaal told interrogators that he was born to a landless peasant family and his brother works as a cart-puller in Lahore. He dropped out of school after fourth class. According to Kamaal’s testimony, top Lashkar commander Zakir-ur-Rehman promised to pay his family Rs.1.5 lakh for participating in the fidayeen attack.

Research and Analysis Wing officials also say they have records of phone calls made by Lashkar unit from a satellite phone, which was recovered from the Kuber soon after the attacks. According to RAW sources, several phone calls were made to senior Lashkar commanders in Pakistan, including its operations chief, who is known by the code-names Muzammil, Yusuf and Abu Hurrera.

Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari has promised to provide all possible support for the investigation. However, several Pakistani commentators, including that country’s current Ambassador to Washington D.C., Husain Haqqani, have in the past pointed to close links between jihadist groups operating in that country and the Inter-Services Intelligence Directorate.

Big Q is:
What are our plans if pak refuses to cooperate?

[Murugan]

Full Nmae = Shivraj Vishwanath Patil Chakurkar (aka The Gaffe Machine)

Bomb Attacks During His Tenure = 61

Indians Died during his Meaningful Intercourse with Terrorists = 752

Famous Quotes:

"We are ready for a meaningful intercourse with the terrorists." (Soon after he took charge of HM)

"I will resign only when the Congres president Sonia Gandhi tells me to go"

and other famous quotes in ET Monday 1st December 2008

[hnair]

None of you have confronted anything like this. Not even in your worst scenarios. The fact is our army has fought and won major wars against an equally well armed and trained adversary. Our IS forces have a slew of tactical successes in COIN ops from J&K to the North East.
.
.
.
.


As an aside and as a message to those in the Western media, anyone who doubts India's proof on Pakistan's involvement and questions India's evidence should remember that they invaded two countries on less of a pretext and the Israelis launch airstrikes against undefended civilian targets anytime one of their civilians gets hit with a stone. India and Indians are sick and tired of self-appointed experts and critics and the supercilious windbags of the Western media and political establishment who sneer at our allegations of Pakistani involvment in terror attacks in India.

By the actions of your so-called experts and the patronizing condescension of your media, you have provided psychological aid and succor to the terrorists who have hurt my people time and time again.

Enough is Enough.

Thanks Sanjay for putting it clearly. There is not a word that I dont agree with

Disclaimer: I do not support any gang violence by any ethnicity, but am interested in the "root causes", that the west's favored ally, Musharraf keeps saying through their own media.

I suspect that this extreme publicity by the western media to Mumbai is to inoculate their population about an impending carnage in their own cities. All western cities have huge pile of arms, sleazy underground mafias that can be made to do false flag operations and an easily scared general public. Add to that, the abundance of socially disadvantaged and pissed off people of color/ethnicity and you really dont need an islamic group to start off such stunts. When I pointed out how MS-13's LA edition started off, Johann has once condescendingly mentioned how MS13 type gangs kill "more latinos than others" and that he travels on both sides of the border of US/Mexico to figure that out. What he forgot to mention is what the latino (or african-american) community elders talk. They are clear on this bullshit of "more <insert a colored race> are killed by the <colored gang> than others" bilge that is fed via the US establishment/media. Let me explain what I heard:

This "they kill you more than they kill us" is a typical gora suggestive campaign, to demoralize these minorities and make them turn against each other. The advantage is that this minority community, in its desperate struggle for survival in gora-territory, will snuff out the violent ones as well as anyone who has decided to says enough is enough in a peaceful way. This is a new version of that good old classic, "divide and rule", aided and abetted by the media. What happens in most western cities is the gora-run establishment will make life hell for an ethnic minority that hurts goras physically or destabilizes their own sweet, idyllic, suburban "Desperate Housewives" ambiance. Such a minority is forced, coerced, socially boycotted and sometimes jailed to submission. Their members are encouraged to rat/snitch on *anyone*, including people who are peacefully protesting injustices. Finally the community is split into dhimmis and rebels. The dhimmis say "let us listen to gora,he is right". The rebels gets pissed, suspect a sellout and starts killing the dhimmis. And the minority community will see an upsurge in cops recruitment, to um, "diversify". Shootouts will be between rebels and these new cops. Gora smiles at this, puts one more feather in his cap and moves on with life. That minority community will see a lot of unwanted violence/deaths because gora cannot tame the rebels to agree to his terms nor do they want to uplift these minorities out of their social disadvantages in a systemic way. Gora finds it a lot more cost-effective to let the minorities kill each other and solve his problems. Good business sense in a way.

Any crimes committed *against* these minorities will not make any headlines, but crimes against goras are bloated beyond belief. Witness the difference in coverage between a no-name Natalie Holloway to a hip-hop legend like Tupac Shakur. This common resentment against "divide and rule" amongst the african-american community was expressed eloquently by Chris Rock during his standup routines. Dave Chapelle is another comedienne who made some really scathing skits based on this angst of African-american community elders.

A minority that challenges the "Desperate Housewives" ambiance with their own music, dressing, social customs or force are made to go through this "they hurt you more than they hurt us" ritual. Look at the initial attempts at suppressing hip-hop culture: denigration of their baggy dresses(a symbolic statement by the hip-hop community about Thrift store wardrobes that they could afford), drug running (ironically, most of the meth labs are run by whites) and apparent laziness to work (from social coercion). A rather amusing spectacle happens when the community still doesnt give up, but instead captures the gora public's imagination: gora establishment goes on overdrive to make money out of the whole "minority-chic". Obama is a shrewd person who actually turned the tables using this minority-chic sentiment, at the same time capturing the gora-public imagination. Quite a sad spectacle to behold for us Indians, who has escaped colonialism of the worst kind.

Where am I going with this? The Mumbai attack will give ideas to a lot of people who are pissed. The west will have a tough time if Bradford, Paris suburbs or the innercities of US decides to stop believing "you are hurting yourselves more than us" and emulate these crazed pakis. The difference is that they dont have to land there in boats with the guns. It is already there in the 2nd amendment and in the Walmarts. So those of them who sneer at the Battle of Mumbai, they are actually wetting their pants. IMO, only France (yes, the surrender monkeys) **might** have the tenacity and grit to fight out a prolonged urban war and yet come out stronger as a nation like India. The rest are not going to have it easy. Based on past performances (right from colonial times), their public are not as discerning as Indians, who know the difference between a "war for profits" and a "war that is thrust on us". Even the humblest voter in India knows the dos and donts. Come elections, sometimes we punish our leaders for the deaths of Indians. And then sometimes we dont, because we know that some things were out of these politicians hands. Bhagavad Geetha 101.

Israelis should realize that they are fast running out of options - their enemy is adapting to smarter techniques (witness the egypt border opening incident) and their allies are shrinking fast. Add to that the fact that their military is being challenged regularly. And sometimes successfully too.

Only Pakistani elites are idiotic enough to support the violent terrorists at a society level and then later on believe "You have to fight them for your own good" words of wisdom of gora. Only they will bitch about predator attacks, get their soldiers killed in their own territory, while still foolishly supporting terrorism. But then they never had a clue about rights and wrong.

Johann, stop trying to convince us that India should turn into a police state like those in the west or a huge barrack like Israel. I know your postings were highly critical of the Pakis, but a lot of us die because of your country and its big brothers' direct and indirect help. Stop trying to turn us against our own Govt by saying "Indians hurt more than others due to other Indians". We are not going to do that. Thanks.

[jmaxwell]

just saw interview with Sara Snider on CNN -- "hurr durr, how come these incompetent yindoos allowed us reporters to be in danger? bullets and explosions were everywhere and these inept ppl didn't even know how to put a yellow tape. they told us so many times that the ops were over but we would hear loud explosions right after they would say that"

also, this question was asked of an "expert" panel -- why is india getting so much attention?
ans -- look how bush kept us safe; look at level of co-ordination and sophistication of attack; we should all be afraid of terrorists

[Murugan]

Heroes of the Taj

these guys died while on duty:

Vijay Banja (48)
Gautam Gosain (22)
Kaizad Kamdin (28)
Zaheen Mateen (25)
Faustine Martis (47)
Sadanand Patil (25)
Rahamathulla (54)
Boris Rego (23)
Thomas Verghese (53)
Rabindra Kanmar (32)

Oberoi

Jones Fernandes of Vasai (near mumbai)

[pran]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Decc ... 777787.cms

NEW DELHI: Three-wheeler autos in the capital have come under the security scanner after the terror siege of Mumbai. According to highly placed
government sources, there are intelligence inputs on the possible use of autos for triggering a blast in a crowded area of Delhi.

[trivedi]

The Patils are gone!

Hope Deshmukh is next. And someone chain Raj Thackeray to a tree so he doesn't bite anyone while he's barking his way into oblivion.

[sunilUpa]

RR Patil resigns and as per Timesnow, Vilasrao is also under pressure to resign.

I want NSA, head of IB, head of Mumbai Police to be gone too.


Johann, No More, we will not let this Gov. take us for granted.

[sunilUpa]

just saw interview with Sara Snider on CNN -- "hurr durr, how come these incompetent yindoos allowed us reporters to be in danger? bullets and explosions were everywhere and these inept ppl didn't even know how to put a yellow tape. they told us so many times that the ops were over but we would hear loud explosions right after they would say that"

also, this question was asked of an "expert" panel -- why is india getting so much attention?
ans -- look how bush kept us safe; look at level of co-ordination and sophistication of attack; we should all be afraid of terrorists

Perimeter control by Mumbai police was attrocious. Mumbai Police commissioner did issue a statement that Taj is cleared, 24 hours before the last piglet was sent flying.

Crowd (press+onlookers) were very close at one point at Taj and Nariman house. I believe couple of Journalists were hit by Sharpnel.
It was only after 36 odd hours, the crowd was moved about 500 yards away from the walls of Taj.

[milindc]

RR Patil resigns and as per Timesnow, Vilasrao is also under pressure to resign.

I want NSA, head of IB, head of Mumbai Police to be gone too.
Johann, No More, we will not let this Gov. take us for granted.

Another clown that definitely needs to go is Mumbai Bob aka AN Roy. This clown was making pronouncements out of arse, and very next moment the pronouncement turned out to be false.

[ramana]

Its most unhelpful when long time members post poropganda about the rescue efforts even after they have an understanding of the issues. So I request Avram, Johann and matthew g to exercise some caution in criticising the rescue efforts till the wounds heal.

Thanks, ramana

[Nayak]

AN Roy, indulging in chootiyapa , also alluded to Malegaon investigation pressure for the death of Karkarey.



This guy kept on and on about how some sections of the society, meaning Rss/VHP/BJP kept hampering him on his investigation.

[Singha]

sub inspector Kadam who took part in the combat on marine drive to
stop the skoda octavia said he had done his annual firing course but not any real life firing. does anyone know how frequently the regular Mumbai police get to practice live firing and what is the duration of that exercise?

I hope its not a annual 2-day thing.

[Singha]

as per reports there were supposed to be 4 rings - NSG/paraSF/Marcos in 1st ring, regular IA in 2nd and mumbai ATS in 3rd. the 4th ring was supposed to be local police - by rights this ring should have focussed outward - keeping crowds and media under control. but mostly they also
seemed to be carrying guns and focussed inward.