Indian Response to Terrorism

[Shreeman]

FOX is now busy promoting terristan agenda. Equal-equal, geraldo's best friend hhaqqani is on. He has visited every channel - blaming india for "the pity that india and pakistan have quarreled instead of improving the future of their children".

US is trying its level best to protect pakistan. this guy has done more interviews today than indian folks do in a year.

[ramana]

TERROR-RAJ
Raj opens his mouth on attacks, praises Sonia, slams BJP

Shows why Deshmukh should be purged from the CM's position too. This Raj Tahckeray is an INC lap dog.

[Manas]

Lessons learned
---------------
There are several lessons to be learned from the tactical handling of anti terror response within the
first 12 hours. Keeping NSG detachments ready at multiple locations in the country with
helicopters to immediately airlift small contingents were supposed to have been implemented a long time ago.
I recall discussions to this effect after it took almost 24 hours to fly 2 commandos from Delhi
to the outskirts of Bangalore to flush out Sivarasan and his LTTE gang that were holed up in a house
post Rajiv Gandhi assisaniation. Creating another federal agency with pontential 100% overlap with the CBI
seems a non sensiscal idea at best. Common sense opsec measures within police agencies needs to be reinforced
(multiple senior officials travelling in one vehicle let the terrorits get lucky shots in wiping
all of them out). There are probably a few hundred people that know the constraints and tactics thereof
that were employed by NSG and Marcos to resolve the hostage situation over the 50+ hours ordeal. It is best to
avoid armchair analysis and monday morning quarterbacking of NSG and Marcos ops execution. The media handling seemed
chaotic but that is more of a policical and police responsiblilty, again very little NSG or Marcos
could do. Enough on this as there will be multiple judicial, joint parlimentary commissions to write up
reports that will not be acted upon in true traditions of GoI.


Response
--------
While I dont have much hope for any meaningful short, medium or long term GoI response to continued
terror attacks against citizens of India, I am hoping against hope that GOI will resort to some of these actions.


- India should avoid an open, overt war at all costs. Despite these terrorist attacks, travel adviories etc
India's economy is at the point of reaching escape velocity. We are probably 20 to 30 years ahead of TSP
in terms of economic development, improving the human development index, per capita incomes etc. Best to focus on that.
TSP can/should be dealt with by covert means.

- For starters, mobilize troops on the western border and goad TSP to move its troops to its eastern border.
Keep them on tenter hooks and let them go to sleep every night not knowing when a military response might be coming.
We are already hearing squealing in western capitals about "how exposed" their troops would be
in Afghanistan if TSP moved its troops. The west should realize that two can play the game.
If they continue to ignore India's legitimate security interests they should pay a price.
An unstable western border of TSP will not worsen India's security situation anymore than what it already is.

- U.S./Nato/U.N. have to recognize that terrorism against any country, any where in the world is
the same and should be dealt with consistently without drawing artificial lines between
"militancy", "legitimate" greviances, "no proof" and other inane nonsense. If not, India should
care less about terrorism that affects the west. It is a two way street.

- If U.S./Nato would like to genuinely standby India then they should force TSP to handover
Dawood, LeT, JeM head honchos. If TSP fails to comply due to ISI resistance then recognize
and declare that there are two entities in TSP a) A legitimate civilan govt that means good
b) A military intelligence terror complex outside civilian control that is part of Al Qeada.
The TSP military branch of Al Qaeda should be dealt with per the accepted norms of how most
peace loving nations deal with terrorists i.e. actively hunt down and nuetralize its leadership.

- TSP society seems so radicalized that it is unlikely it will learn to live peacefully with any
of its neighbhors. The only option to quell TSP sponsored radical insurgencies in its neighborhood
is to cut of the air supply that these insurgencies thrive on. This air supply is TSP's symbolic status of
nationhood and its self proclaimed status as the guardian angel of world wide muslim interests
legitimized by its possession of nuclear weapons.

- A systematic and "peaceful" deconstruction of TSP into 4 or 5 independent entities along natural
ethinc and tribal fissures will provide an impetus to a U.N. mandated denuking of this beast
a la former soviet republics. This will automatically ensure that the "mis guided" populace
of "South Asia" will realize that they are better off economically and politically in a multi religous,
multi ethnic democracy with an upward economic trajectory aspiring to be 2nd or 3rd largest economy in the world.
GoI has a huge "peaceful" role to play to accelerate this outcome.


As a concerned PIO with family in India, I am hoping and praying for the following until the next attack.

- A pure stroke of luck or an extraordinary act of bavery (fisherman, chaiwala, paanwala, taxi driver etc)
snuffs out an attack as soon as the first few bullets are fired or the first few bombs go off.

- If that line of defence fails then I hope terrorists will target the well heeled intelligensia and media that typically
cool their heels in 5 star coffee shops discussing how TSP is so much better than India.

- If the terrorists decide to attack train stations and crowded market places filled with India's poor and middle class
trying to earn a honest day's living then I pray that my family is fortunate enough to not get caught in the mayhem.


I have teared up watching funerals of Major. Unnikrishnan and Havildar. Gajendra Singh. I prayed numerous times
for the safety of India's anti terror forces every time the tabliod DDM squealed the "final assualt is on". We will never
be able to repay the debt to our men and women in uniform watching our nations borders and safeguarding our cities.
But we can certainly pray for them and their families and hope for the best while the "chai biscoot sessions" (to use spinster/John Snow's words)
go on in the power corridors of Nayi Dilli, Mumbai, Chennai, Bengaluru and Kolakata.

[ramana]

We need to distinguish between terrorism and covert military attack. The former is crime while the latter is an act of war. What happened in Mumbai is an act of war not a criminal act same as 9/11 attack on USA.

[Ujjal]

First response a.k.a the soft-response is to own the media and the joes. Someone please tell me why do I see these TSP ministers and ambassadors spewing their Bakistan propaganda everywhere? What about our Indian counterparts? Where are they? Are they waiting for concrete proofs and the results of the investigations? Are they waiting for a later assault that would put the pigs in a catch-22 situation when old clips of theirs would be played and cross-referenced with new evidences?

Why don't we see frequent statements (/day) from MEA?

We need answers.

Oh wait. Last time I heard, GOI doesn't give a flying about some forum member on the internet. We need to take real actions. Spam their voicemails and inboxes.

[Yogi_G]

We need to distinguish between terrorism and covert military attack. The former is crime while the latter is an act of war. What happened in Mumbai is an act of war not a criminal act same as 9/11 attack on USA.

True...A sort of "Corward's declaration of war". Usually when a govt/outfit declares war it does so and proudly stands by it...in the case of 9/11 and the Mumbai attacks (I hate calling it 11/26..dunno why...) the perpetrators disassociated themselves with their dastardly acts immediately....in case of 9/11 the AQ and in the Mumbai attacks the Paki Govt (the ones in ISI who r running TSP much to the chagrin of Zardari)....This is nothing but cowardice....

TSP knows for sure it can not stand a chance against the army of the Kafirs so all the covert stuff and the nukes are an insurance....

[Paul]

Equal-equal, geraldo's best friend hhaqqani is on.

He probably has his eye on Haqqani's wife. Right after 9/11, he was line marroing Haqqani's wife on Prime time TV shamelessly....I am serious here.

While it is good to keep an eye on what the foreign media is saying, the real war is being fought in India....as such the focus should to make sure the Indian media keeps it's eye on the ball.

What Fox and CNN are saying is a mere sideshow..given more imp due to the Indian pop. here in the US

[Shreeman]

While it is good to keep an eye on what the foreign media is saying, the real war is being fought in India....

After a day of ranting, all is forgotten. The indian media is moving to other things.

England will come and play cricket. Nothing to see here any more,...

ps: if I were an Indian cricketer, I would refuse to play.

[gandharva]

what to do next
since everyone and his uncle is offering an opinion - here goes

I don't know why we keep crying Uncle Sam and running to America. As B Raman has noted elsewhere - this is futile. America is not interested in wiping terror aimed at india. they are looking for a facing-saving withdrawal from Afghanistan. what happened in iraq is going to be repeated here. petraeus has already started bribing the taliban to stop firing at NATO "troops" so that they can "Declare Victory and run" - to paraphrase the memorable George Aiken.

lesson -1 Do not look to others to do your Karma; specially do not look to losers


some bloggers have proposed troops to afghanistan. this is not only error but folly, principally because this will ensure quick NATO withdrawl with India left holding the bag of doggy-poop that the Afghan nation has become - not to mention the "offence" it will cause to peace-loving minorities and the Jamia University in India. We should be sending all the troops we can to the north-east. the hans are going to attack - they are softening us up using pakistan on the western border. Our strategy should be use Tajik-Uzbek-Iran trio to keep the pressure on Pakistan in the Afghan theatre.

lesson -2 Do not go climbing on someone else's Hamburger Hill.

we should recognise that both the Yanks and Chinese have an interest in keeping Pakistan going - so as to keep a watch on what each other is doing in Central Asia. Pakistan is not an international condom - it is a whore (I said it). This whore has two pimps. what is more the whore keeps playing one pimp against the other while pretending to work for both.

the core indian strategy should be to get Pakistanis fighting each other - and make sure it stays that way. We should fund the baluchis, sindhis and both sides of the Durand-line Pakhtoons to achieve their legitimate aspirations. If they do one Kashmir to us - we should do four Kashmir's to them. Instead of manning 100,000 troops on the western border - we should be paying "militants" within Pakistan to blow up critical installations (bridges, ports, army barracks). Specially they should blow up things that chinese engineers are working on - and also terror-training camps. Break up Pakistan - do it all with plausible deniability. we should also harden our defenses with the knowledge that some attacks are inevitable.

this should be a strategic objective that we should work for - even if it takes many years. even if we have to - to quote Papa Bhutto - "eat grass"

if we break up Pakistan - it opens up an energy corridor between us and the middle east. it undermines both uncle sam and the hans - to the gain of India. we should lie to uncle sam that we are prepared to be his client after this happens (a little al-taqqiyah of our own). we can even drop the demand of reconsidering the nuclear deal as a gesture

the mantra is - strengthen defense and start an offense


finally - i am simply appalled by Chidambaram being handed the home ministry. was it not enough for him to wreck the indian economy with money-for-sonia schemes like NREGS or money-for-Kingini schemes like allowing-disallowing- reallowing p-notes. the growth projections have already been lowered to be close to 7% (govt. of Manmohan statistics - you can give that a 2-3% haircut). now we can get ready to hand over parcels of india to various parties. Bangladesh gets the North east, Nepal gets it's Pasupati-Tirupatti corridor and kashmir can be given away to Zardari. all this will be done while giving the appearance of a wise Buddha and waving a "peace in our time" paper. i am afraid it may be curtains for our modern state (The First Republic of India - as Jerry Rao calls it)

so the first step should be to give this portfolio to somebody else.

sigh!
Posted by Ghost Writer at 11/30/2008 07:26:00 PM
http://rajeev2004.blogspot.com/

[pran]

With incident reports coming in all over Mumbai, it made a lot of sense NOT to fly a large force into Mumbai airport without getting a clearer picture. As it is, they were one traffic light away from having the domestic terminal blown up. How tough would it have been for the Pakis to station a dinghy with a SAM-toting pig under the approach?

N,
Having lived in Mumbai and commuted near the airport, the aircraft landing approach to Mumbai airport is vulnerable to a stone throw from any of hillside slum roof tops between Saki Naka and Kurla and so is the airport perimeter. If anyone wants to mount a serious attack like the latest one, it would be a cake walk for the terrorists.

[Shreeman]

Let me put another one out there for folks to chew on:

What will it take for India to ignore the Pakistan nukes?

The second strike bit is just another way of having someone else force a decision on you.

Seriously, what else is it?

[pran]

We need to distinguish between terrorism and covert military attack. The former is crime while the latter is an act of war. What happened in Mumbai is an act of war not a criminal act same as 9/11 attack on USA.

Only a elected representative of the people of India , the prime minister need to say it and ask the nation to get ready for the sacrifice. I just wonder what goes on his mind, does he feel weak and powerless, conviction less. He has asked for 15 days to sort out his priorities.

[Rahul M]

X-post.

So how is that done?

it's not easy, nor will it be quick.

but if we throw away some of the strategic baggage from the US-Soviet confrontation from our thinking we might just get around to a plausible route of action.

For a start we would require an elaborate, meticulous intelligence effort with full political backing from the political executive for at least 1-2 years, probably more.

The questions needed to be answered being :

>> How many pakistani nukes are there ?
a ball park figure of the max number possible can be arrived at using the figures for fissile material production.
more precise information has to be pieced together from people once related to the pak program but who have since moved away.
This assumes a level of leeway and a mandate R&AW hasn't seen since after the IKG days.

also vital information would be information on convoy procedures of paki nukes. I would assume this is already available. If so, the sats can be used to good effect.

there are many ways of gathering info, with the increasing of islamisation of pak forces, false-flag approach readily suggests itself, to name but one.

An alternative question might be
How many delivery vehicles are there ?

Since this number is likely to be much more than that of the nukes this angle might not be practical.

>>Next question, in what form are they ?
are they fully mated to delivery platform, kept on a few hours stand-by or even more.

this information would be used to prioritise the targeting, mated platforms and air-bases with nuke tasked F-16 squadrons being the first priority. followed by warheads completed but not mated and then others where the cores are kept separate.
if the total number itself is small, then this bit of info has less importance.

>>Very Important, Where are those ?
this is perhaps the most important question of all, and would require a painstaking book-keeping effort to keep track of each and every deployable nuke.
standard op procedures would have to be calibrated,

All the types of intel, HUMINT,ELINT and Sats would be necessary.

one point that makes such a tagging probable is the fact that given the current situation in their country where the army is being targeted day in and day out, TSPA won't move around their nukes too much, it's too much of a risk. the escorts alone would light it up like a christmas tree and attract jehadi attention.
the chances of the paki jewels being in the FATA/NWFP is bleak, that's not to say zero but the number certainly won't be high, if at all.
It is most likely that paki nukes and MRBMs are spread around the TSPA strongholds like the cantonment towns of rawalpindi and quetta.

>>How to take them out ?
This is a question best left to the professionals but I believe that with some effort, the Indian military machine has the ability to hit 30-35 targets simultaneously with some redundancy thrown in. a simultaneous attack on all targets with backing from EW platforms would be able to confuse the paki radar network enough to buy the requisite time.
the confusion need only be in place for the time required for the missiles to find their target.
given the transit times in the Indo-pak context, a prepared Indian force would be able to deliver its blow before the TSP launch orders come in and the birds are launched.(which takes more time)
didn't we hear something about DRDO bunker-busters ?

[hnair]

After a day of ranting, all is forgotten. The indian media is moving to other things.

England will come and play cricket. Nothing to see here any more,...

ps: if I were an Indian cricketer, I would refuse to play.

Crossposting from Mumbai III thread:

None of you have confronted anything like this. Not even in your worst scenarios. The fact is our army has fought and won major wars against an equally well armed and trained adversary. Our IS forces have a slew of tactical successes in COIN ops from J&K to the North East.
.
.
.
.


As an aside and as a message to those in the Western media, anyone who doubts India's proof on Pakistan's involvement and questions India's evidence should remember that they invaded two countries on less of a pretext and the Israelis launch airstrikes against undefended civilian targets anytime one of their civilians gets hit with a stone. India and Indians are sick and tired of self-appointed experts and critics and the supercilious windbags of the Western media and political establishment who sneer at our allegations of Pakistani involvment in terror attacks in India.

By the actions of your so-called experts and the patronizing condescension of your media, you have provided psychological aid and succor to the terrorists who have hurt my people time and time again.

Enough is Enough.

Thanks Sanjay for putting it clearly. There is not a word that I dont agree with

Disclaimer: I do not support any gang violence by any ethnicity, but am interested in the "root causes", that the west's favored ally, Musharraf keeps saying through their own media.

I suspect that this extreme publicity by the western media to Mumbai is to inoculate their population about an impending carnage in their own cities. All western cities have huge pile of arms, sleazy underground mafias that can be made to do false flag operations and an easily scared general public. Add to that, the abundance of socially disadvantaged and pissed off people of color/ethnicity and you really dont need an islamic group to start off such stunts. When I pointed out how MS-13's LA edition started off, Johann has once condescendingly mentioned how MS13 type gangs kill "more latinos than others" and that he travels on both sides of the border of US/Mexico to figure that out. What he forgot to mention is what the latino (or african-american) community elders talk. They are clear on this bullshit of "more <insert a colored race> are killed by the <colored gang> than others" bilge that is fed via the US establishment/media. Let me explain what I heard:

This "they kill you more than they kill us" is a typical gora suggestive campaign, to demoralize these minorities and make them turn against each other. The advantage is that this minority community, in its desperate struggle for survival in gora-territory, will snuff out the violent ones as well as anyone who has decided to says enough is enough in a peaceful way. This is a new version of that good old classic, "divide and rule", aided and abetted by the media. What happens in most western cities is the gora-run establishment will make life hell for an ethnic minority that hurts goras physically or destabilizes their own sweet, idyllic, suburban "Desperate Housewives" ambiance. Such a minority is forced, coerced, socially boycotted and sometimes jailed to submission. Their members are encouraged to rat/snitch on *anyone*, including people who are peacefully protesting injustices. Finally the community is split into dhimmis and rebels. The dhimmis say "let us listen to gora,he is right". The rebels gets pissed, suspect a sellout and starts killing the dhimmis. And the minority community will see an upsurge in cops recruitment, to um, "diversify". Shootouts will be between rebels and these new cops. Gora smiles at this, puts one more feather in his cap and moves on with life. That minority community will see a lot of unwanted violence/deaths because gora cannot tame the rebels to agree to his terms nor do they want to uplift these minorities out of their social disadvantages in a systemic way. Gora finds it a lot more cost-effective to let the minorities kill each other and solve his problems. Good business sense in a way.

Any crimes committed *against* these minorities will not make any headlines, but crimes against goras are bloated beyond belief. Witness the difference in coverage between a no-name Natalie Holloway to a hip-hop legend like Tupac Shakur. This common resentment against "divide and rule" amongst the african-american community was expressed eloquently by Chris Rock during his standup routines. Dave Chapelle is another comedienne who made some really scathing skits based on this angst of African-american community elders.

A minority that challenges the "Desperate Housewives" ambiance with their own music, dressing, social customs or force are made to go through this "they hurt you more than they hurt us" ritual. Look at the initial attempts at suppressing hip-hop culture: denigration of their baggy dresses(a symbolic statement by the hip-hop community about Thrift store wardrobes that they could afford), drug running (ironically, most of the meth labs are run by whites) and apparent laziness to work (from social coercion). A rather amusing spectacle happens when the community still doesnt give up, but instead captures the gora public's imagination: gora establishment goes on overdrive to make money out of the whole "minority-chic". Obama is a shrewd person who actually turned the tables using this minority-chic sentiment, at the same time capturing the gora-public imagination. Quite a sad spectacle to behold for us Indians, who has escaped colonialism of the worst kind.

Where am I going with this? The Mumbai attack will give ideas to a lot of people who are pissed. The west will have a tough time if Bradford, Paris suburbs or the innercities of US decides to stop believing "you are hurting yourselves more than us" and emulate these crazed pakis. The difference is that they dont have to land there in boats with the guns. It is already there in the 2nd amendment and in the Walmarts. So those of them who sneer at the Battle of Mumbai, they are actually wetting their pants. IMO, only France (yes, the surrender monkeys) **might** have the tenacity and grit to fight out a prolonged urban war and yet come out stronger as a nation like India. The rest are not going to have it easy. Based on past performances (right from colonial times), their public are not as discerning as Indians, who know the difference between a "war for profits" and a "war that is thrust on us". Even the humblest voter in India knows the dos and donts. Come elections, sometimes we punish our leaders for the deaths of Indians. And then sometimes we dont, because we know that some things were out of these politicians hands. Bhagavad Geetha 101.

Israelis should realize that they are fast running out of options - their enemy is adapting to smarter techniques (witness the egypt border opening incident) and their allies are shrinking fast. Add to that the fact that their military is being challenged regularly. And sometimes successfully too.

Only Pakistani elites are idiotic enough to support the violent terrorists at a society level and then later on believe "You have to fight them for your own good" words of wisdom of gora. Only they will bitch about predator attacks, get their soldiers killed in their own territory, while still foolishly supporting terrorism. But then they never had a clue about rights and wrong.

Johann, stop trying to convince us that India should turn into a police state like those in the west or a huge barrack like Israel. I know your postings were highly critical of the Pakis, but a lot of us die because of your country and its big brothers' direct and indirect help. Stop trying to turn us against our own Govt by saying "Indians hurt more than others due to other Indians". We are not going to do that. Thanks.

Care should be taken when we go for a cleanup drive.

[gandharva]

How is the script likely to run? If the ISI chief comes, Lieutenant-General Ahmed Shuja Pasha, he is likely to be all military and inflexible. He will very possibly hand over counter charges of alleged Indian involvement in Baluchistan, Afghanistan and whatever else can be made up. He will warn against rushing to blame Pakistan, and to look at Indian masterminds. And even if he takes the evidence back, that will promptly be routed back to the Bombay attack masterminds, and they will know how much India knows. In politer language than perhaps the ISI chief, Zardari will tell the PM, "Thank you. But we are clean. We are co-victims of terrorism. Don't bring your troubles to us."

In this script that Manmohan Singh is recklessly playing out, the United States would be approached to lean on Pakistan. The incoming Barack Obama administration will declare itself more than eager for this, provided India accepts Bill Clinton or anybody else as the US mediator on the Kashmir dispute with Pakistan. After the foreign minister, Pranab Mukherjee, declared no to this, what can the PM say or do? If he says yes, the UPA government will never survive the sell-out on Kashmir, over and above whatever its softness on terror has already cost it electorally. If he says no, that's the end of the foolish and dangerous initiative to bring the ISI chief into the Bombay attack investigations, but with our evidence of Pakistani involvement compromised. Come to think of it, do you engage with the chief of an intelligence service which is suspected behind a nationhood-challenging terrorist attack?

http://www.newsinsight.net/archivedebat ... recno=1766

[Santosh]

Someone please tell me why do I see these TSP ministers and ambassadors spewing their Bakistan propaganda everywhere? What about our Indian counterparts? Where are they? Are they waiting for concrete proofs and the results of the investigations?

TSP has the routine - I didn't do it - drama. What do you expect Indian ministers to say even if they were given media slots? If they say Mumbai will show resilience once again they are toast. If they say there is a price to be paid they are toast. At this point everyone knows that there is no price to be paid by no one. If I were a United Pu$$y Association minister I would stay away from the media for few weeks.

[sanjaykumar]

Is it possible for Indians to shut-up and sink a few Pakistani ships?

This would be a calibrated and cost-effective strike, no red lines crossed, all sweet and reasonable. Pakistanis will be thankful it is not their cities or, worse for their honour and dignity, their army.

And save a few ships for the next terrorist outrage coming to a town near you.

[trivedi]

Is it possible for Indians to shut-up and sink a few Pakistani ships?

This would be a calibrated and cost-effective strike, no red lines crossed, all sweet and reasonable. Pakistanis will be thankful it is not their cities or, worse for their honour and dignity, their army.

And save a few ships for the next terrorist outrage coming to a town near you.

Sinking a navy ship is an act of war and requires the same preparations as a land or air strike across the border. That's an option, but not a cost-effective one.

A cost-effective option is targeted missile strikes at terrorist camps across the border from Afghanisan in NWFP and hot pursuit in PoK. How do we do this? Considering that Unkil is doing it himself, we can arm twist Unkil into letting us join in and take out NWFP vermin while they are chasing the ghost of bin Laden. If the alternative offered to Unkil is full scale war on Pak, Unkil will surely relent (at least till GWB is in) because he doesn't want to jeopardize stability of the region with a full scale war. Porkies have been blackmailing Unkil by pointing a gun at 'stability' forever. At least India would be doing it for a good cause, not Unkil's $$.

What's more, how's Pak going to offer credible proof that it was our missiles not Unkils that took the basturds out?

Someone here please point me to credible articles on Lashkar / Taliban connections.

[Rahul M]

Is it possible for Indians to shut-up and sink a few Pakistani ships?

This would be a calibrated and cost-effective strike, no red lines crossed, all sweet and reasonable. Pakistanis will be thankful it is not their cities or, worse for their honour and dignity, their army.

And save a few ships for the next terrorist outrage coming to a town near you.

possible of course but it would achieve nothing but jeopardise a lot.

[sanjaykumar]

India has causa belli if they maintain that the Pak navy facilitated the training/infiltration of the green pond-scum.

Pakistanis need to learn that their government has feet of clay-anonymous strikes against some majnoons will hardly suffice. Jihadis are a penny a pound. Pakistanis know they are hollow save the smirk, time to wipe that off as well.

[vina]

Maj Sandeep Unnikrishnan, alumnus of Frank Anthony's Public School (FAPS), NDA graduate, resident of HAL/Indiranagar/Old Airport Road , age 31. An officer and a gentleman. A hero.

There have been top JEE rankers and other very accomplished people from my old school ,FAPS, however I think Sandeep is one of the first FAPS alumnus who died in the line of duty in the special forces.

The corrosive effects of the leftist alliance on whose support the UPA was run for all this time has proven to be toxic and fatal. It corroded the moral resolve to fight against terror and created a mindset which concluded that the fight against terror could be won by some glorified policing and appeasement and a pernicious thought that somehow islamic terrorism was related to the social and economic conditions of Indian muslims and hence addressing that would fight terrorism.

The pernicious linking of the conditions of muslims (real and imagined) of India and the legitimate electoral politics and calculations behind the amelioration of that condition, with the repsonse against terror is the root cause of the UPA govt's inability and the lack of resolve to fight terror.

I had written earlier supporting the article in a major newspaper calling for Chidambaram to be moved from Finance to Home, but had never imagined that it would happen in such cirumstances.

The effects of the coalition with the left has been corrosive both to the economy (Chidambaram was really acting against his best instincts and addressing the left agenda with his fiscally prolific budgets). Everyone realizes it. Mr Unnikrishnan Nair, father of the fallen hero refused to meet with the CPI-M politicians from Kerala, who shamelessly showed up at his door step as an afterthought (contrast that with the Karnataka govt's respectful behavior) and who despite being refused entry barged in to the house with the help of their police underlings to speak with Maj Sandeep Unnikrishan's mother.


We old Bangalore , Indiranagar/ Ulsoor/ Cantonment folks have given one of our finest in the fight against terror. What he died fighting against must be taken to it's logical end. This must be war must be persecuted until we achieve total victory.This war cannot be fought reactively sitting in India. We need to go on the offense. We should take the war to Pakistan and raise the costs to those who indulge in such acts of terror and their supporters and patrons. We need action. The Congress is incapable of it. It is guilty of gross and criminal negligence in the fight against terror and lacks the resolve and moral clarity to fight it.

The Manmohan Singh govt is a lame duck administration on it's last legs, with around 4 to 5 months to go for the general election. Ideally there should be a massive ground level movement telling the govt to quit and call for early elections. In any case, the people should vote massively and decisively against the present UPA administration and the ineffectual team at the top.

Go Manmohan Singh, Go. For god's sake sir, go.

From my side, for the first time ever, I will vote against the Congress in the upcoming elections and hopefully vote in a team that has the moral resolve and the conviction to fight terror. I hope and pray that the overwhelming bulk of my fellow country men do so as well.

[trivedi]

India has causa belli if they maintain that the Pak navy facilitated the training/infiltration of the green pond-scum.

Pakistanis need to learn that their government has feet of clay-anonymous strikes against some majnoons will hardly suffice. Jihadis are a penny a pound. Pakistanis know they are hollow save the smirk, time to wipe that off as well.

We have had causa belli almost continuously since 1947. The question is not about the justness of a possible war, but about convincing the other players of it. This is hard and requires a lot of capital - both political and actual.

If we can achieve much of the same results at a fraction of the cost, we should do it and wait for our chance for a war (if further needed). If Porkistan continues to be governed the way it is, it's going to become a bigger quagmire than Iraq and Unkil will come around to our way of thinking.

[Philip]

Govt knew about the threat, did nothing: Arun Shourie

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/govt-knew-ab ... -3-p2.html
Arun Shourie / IBNLive Specials

DRIVING THE POINT HOME: Govt has failed to combat terror, Indian Express Editor-in-Chief Arun Shourie writes.

Arun Shourie is the Editor-in-Cheif for Indian Express and Rajya Sabha MP from the BJP.

Our coastal areas are coming under increased threat from terrorist groups, which have decided to use the sea route to infiltrate into India. They also plan to induct arms and ammunition through the sea routes” — that is Shivraj Patil addressing the directors general and inspectors general of police in November 2006. “We understand they (the terrorists) have been collecting information regarding location of various refineries on or near the Indian coastline... Some Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) operatives are also being trained specifically for sabotage of Oil installations. There are plans to occupy some uninhabited islands off the country’s coastline to use them as bases for launching operations on the Indian coast...”


That was the ever-alert home minister in November 2006. The minister of defence has been no less alert. On March 9 2007, he was asked in the Lok Sabha, whether “the intelligence agencies have warned about the possibility of terrorists trying to infiltrate through the sea route or trying to target our offshore installations?” He answered, “Yes, sir. There are reports about terrorists of various tanzeems being imparted training and likelihood of their infiltration through sea routes...” He was asked whether “maritime terrorism, gun-running, drug-trafficking and piracy are major threats that India is facing from the sea borders of the country?” His answer? “Yes, sir.”


On May 9 2007, the home minister was asked in the Rajya Sabha, whether “it is a fact that there are strong apprehensions of terrorist threats to the country through the sea route?” “As per available reports,” he answered, “Pak based terrorist groups, particularly LeT, have been exploring possibilities of induction of manpower and terrorist hardware through the sea route...” On December 8, 2007, the National Security Adviser, M.K. Narayanan, was educating the world at the 4th Regional Security Summit organised by the International Institute of Strategic Studies, the Manama Dialogue. “According to our intelligence reports,” he confided to the assembled sheikhs and experts, “there are now certain new schools that are now being established on the Pakistan-Afghanistan border, which now specialise in the training of an international brigade of terrorists to fight in many climes. According to our information, recruits from 14 to 15 countries have been identified as amongst the trainees there... Training has become extremely rigorous — it is almost frightening in nature... Studies are being carried out about important targets, with regard to vulnerability, accessibility, poor security, absence of proper counter-terrorism measures, etc. The sea route, in particular, is becoming the chosen route for carrying out many attacks, even on land. References to this are to be found replete in current terrorist literature.” “Given India’s experience in dealing with terrorism,” he added, “I would like to therefore sound a note of warning, that there is no scope for complacency...”


On March 11, 2008, A.K. Antony addressed the “International Maritime Search and Rescue Conference,” in Delhi. He warned the delegates of “dangers of Terror attacks from the sea in the region.” In the course of his address, Antony admitted that the Coast Guard faces shortage of manpower as well as hardware. But “necessary steps are being taken to strengthen the search and rescue infrastructure of the Indian Coast Guard...” On November 13, 2008, just a fortnight before the assaults at Mumbai, Manmohan Singh warned the BIMSTEC summit, “Terrorism and threats from the sea continue to challenge the authority of the state...”


By now it was time for Shivraj Patil to address yet another meeting of the DGs and IGs of Police. Thus on November 22, 2008, that is literally on the eve of the attacks in Mumbai, he told the police chiefs, “To control terrorism in the hinterland, we have to see that infiltration of terrorists from other countries does not take place through the sea routes and through the borders between India and friendly countries. The coastlines also have to be guarded through Navy, Coast Guard and coastal police. The states’ special branches and the CID should identify the persons forming part of the sleeper cells and lodging in cities and towns and studying in educational institutions and working in industries and professions...”

And four days later, the terrorists, using the exact same sea route, do the exact same thing that these worthies have been warning others about. Are they consultants to Government or ones running the government? Is their job to issue warnings to others or to see that the warnings are acted upon? Warning given, the job is done. But that is the fate of warnings in this system. After all, that very sea route was used to smuggle explosives for the blasts across Bombay in 1993. Were those blasts not warning enough?


Seven years later —in 2000 — the warning and lesson were made explicit yet again. Four task forces were set up in the wake of the Kargil war. The one on border management warned, “The long coastline with its inadequate policing makes it easy to land arms and explosives at isolated spots on the coast.” It recalled that this is exactly how explosives were smuggled into Maharashtra in 1993. “The situation, if anything, has worsened over the years with the activities of the ISI becoming more widespread along the coast particularly by extension into the coast of Kerala... Such coastal areas must be particularly kept under surveillance.”


There is space here to cite just one example. The task force pointed out that the ISI had started using the Lakshadweep archipelago as a major staging point for smuggling arms and personnel into India. The agency used smugglers and their networks — like Dawood Ibrahim and his tentacles — and their routes for doing so. These dons and their networks were given shelter and support in return for helping the agency with its operations against India.


Now, Lakhsdweep has 36 islands. Ten of these are inhabited. Talking of one of these islands — Suheli — the task force pointed out that, sea vessels of smugglers apart, “there have been instances of twin rotor helicopters (of the kind used by militaries) landing at Suheli Island and spotting of unidentified helicopters flying over the waters around the islands...” And what were we doing? “Intelligence gathering in the islands,” the task force recorded, “is carried out by one inspector, one sub inspector, one head constable and three constables working in the special branch at Kavaratti” — just one of the 36 islands. “Intelligence gathering in all other islands is carried out by one head constable/constable who reports to the OIC (the officer in charge) of the police station who in turn passes it on to the inspector (special branch) at Kavaratti.” Please read that again: 36 islands; one inspector, one sub inspector, one head constable and three constables on the main island; and one head constable/constable for all the remaining 35 islands...


What has happened since, what is the position today, I ask the person who has held the highest posts in intelligence. Exactly what it was then, he says, with one difference. With the upgradation of all posts, the inspector (special branch) at Kavaratti is now designated not as officer in charge, but as joint assistant director or deputy central intelligence officer depending on his cadre. As for the other recommendations — patrolling, setting up sensors, and a host of others things are as they were.


And we are surprised!


I can multiply such examples by the score at no notice at all. Recalling just one thing will be sufficient. When, during a debate on national security in the Rajya Sabha, I began citing such passages from the report of this task force, shouts went up from the Congress, “But this is a secret report... How has he got it?... How is he citing it?...” Shivraj Patil remained his composed self, eventually chiding me with the sagacity which even terrorists have by now come to associate with him.


Things to do. First, act on recommendations that are made by committees you set up. Second, that will not happen unless we send a better type into legislatures and, thence, to governments. When we select leaders who treat the police as their private army; when we select leaders for whom investigating agencies are instruments to fix rivals or let off allies, don’t expect the police and agencies to suddenly turn around and forestall terrorists.

Third, remember that little can be achieved unless every aspect of governance, is brought up to par. You can’t have a first-rate commando force and a third rate magistracy. You can’t have defence and intelligence personnel who will nab terrorists and courts that will let them off, or, better still, enable them to live off the treasury as state guests for years. And that excellence must reach down to that “head constable/constable” level. When K.P.S. Gill reconquered Punjab for the country, he did so by strengthening and invigorating the local thana.


Fourth, that is only one part of the explanation. A weakened and confused society explains as much — and the responsibility lies as much with those who have dissipated national resolve, who have made nationalism a dirty word. That set includes the media as much as politicians. Sixty-seventy thousand killed by terrorism and we are still debating whether we should have a federal investigating agency. Sixty-seventy thousand killed by terrorists and we are still debating whether we should have a special law to bring them to book.


Of course, we must have the agency. Of course, we must have the sternest law in the world. But having the law is not enough. We must enforce it. One side of the picture is that, to pander to its vote bank among Muslims, the government has been withholding sanction to the law passed by the Gujarat assembly — even though that law is the exact replica of the law that its own party’s government has passed in adjacent Maharashtra. The other side is that, as the Maharashtra government does not use the law it has, those who will give shelter and support to terrorists give them with abandon — you just have to think of the quantum of weapons that the terrorists brought in; the detailed local knowledge they had — of the spot at which to land their boats, of the location of the building in which Jews and Israelis were staying, of the insides of the hotels, to see that they could not have executed their plans without the most extensive local help, help given over months.


And enforcing the law means carrying out sentences that the law provides. The parliament of India is attacked, guards are killed; one of the killers is tried and convicted, the sentence is confirmed by the Supreme Court, and, eight years after the assault, his “papers are still being processed,” indeed there are signature campaigns against executing the sentence. Given these circumstances, the best thing for a terrorist to succeed in his mission, and then get caught. He will get the best lawyers to defend him. He will get judges who are ever so solicitous about his rights, ever so finicky about procedures. And, of course, he will get activists to shoot off press statements on his behalf. Lawyers better, judges more solicitous, activists more articulate and better networked than any in his own country.


But for any of this to happen, the society has to be clear in its mind. This is, it has for 20 years been, war. It can be won only by overwhelming the adversary — not by running after the terrorist, as K.P.S. Gill says, but by out-running him, indeed by over-running him. Not an eye for an eye. For an eye, both eyes. Not a tooth for a tooth. For a tooth, the whole jaw. Human rights? Yes, we will respect the human rights of the terrorists and their sponsors and their local supporters to the extent that they respect the human rights of our people.


Finally, have a clear realisation of the condition of the society and state of Pakistan. Unless you come across evidence that the nature of the state and society of Pakistan has changed, it is idiotic to put faith in the profession of this ruler or that. Remember Musharraf’s “Main naya dil leyke aayaa hun”? Taliban and Al Qaeda are not the cause of the state of Pakistan. They are the result of the Talibanisation of Pakistani society and state.


Where do you think, and by whom do you think are the teachers instructed to ensure that students from class 1 onwards “recognise the importance of jihad”; to ensure that they “must be aware of the blessings of jihad”; to ensure that they “create yearning for jihad in his heart”; to ensure that they develop “love and aspiration for jihad, tabligh, shahadat, sacrifice, ghazi, shaheed”? Where do you think, and by whom are teachers instructed to ensure that students from kindergarten onwards learn to “make speeches on jihad and shahadat”, and are “judged on their spirit while making speeches on jihad”? Do you think these are instructions issued by the Islamic fundamentalists to maulvis in madrasas? They are instructions given by the government of Pakistan through official circulars to principals and teachers in government schools of Pakistan.


You didn’t know that? Exactly. That is a large part of the problem. You will find reams of these and other facts in the 2002 report edited by Pakistani academics, A.H. Nayyar and Ahmed Salim, and published by the Sustainable Development Institute, Islamabad, ‘The Subtle Subversion: The state of curricula and textbooks in Pakistan, Urdu, English, Social Studies and Civics’. Get on to the Internet, download and read the report from http://www.sdpi.org. Here is a part of the problem that you can solve by yourself.


As for the rest of the problem,as we can no longer rely on Shivraj Patil, we are compelled to continue to rely on the one who has been for the government as a whole, what Shivraj Patil has been for the home ministry — that is, the prime minister, Manmohan Singh.

PS:Arun Shourie's amazing revealtions show that the GOI/State Govt. did bugger all despite knowing all along that Mumbai was in dire danger and di nothing to convene an emergency rsponse to the impending attacks.

"No Security Adviser" Narayanan-Quit,Man Mohan Singh-Quit,Sonia-Quit India!

[R_Kumar]

TERROR-RAJ
Raj opens his mouth on attacks, praises Sonia, slams BJP

Shows why Deshmukh should be purged from the CM's position too. This Raj Tahckeray is an INC lap dog.

No one has any doubt that congress was behind his tough talk. How come this proud Mahrastrian has no shame? But then again he is politician first.

[Johann]

cross posted from the other thread, since it needs to be included with H Nair's cross-post

(a) The level of international media attention to Mumbai has everything to do with the fact that Western citizens were amongst those targetted - which matters a great deal to the consumers of news back in the home countries of western media outfits.

(b) I have not said anything that any number of Indians have not already said for decades regarding political inertia, and the weakness of rule of law in India.

I have not suggested for one second that India ought abandon liberal democracy - in fact that is what has allowed India to survive all of its challenges.

India needs more democracy, not less, and that means all sorts of things, from sensitivity to public concerns, to a government that takes the court system seriously. The issue is not the model, but its application.

To describe the response of Western societies to terrorism as a police state is a very poor joke. The right to civil disobedience remains - in fact there's no better way to become an instant hero - Cindy Sheehan or Brian Haw for example are instantly recognised, and are very much untouchable.

In fact I have personally heard retired Indian intelligence officers bitterly complain about the vast resources allocated to political intelligence instead of national security, which exactly mirror what has been written by other retirees in the Indian press. They expected their revelations to create a sensation, instead there was public indifference, which to them was far more crushing than the behaviour of the politicians who ordered them to spy on their opponents in the first place. Watergate simply wouldnt be a scandal in India big enough to bring down a government.

My citizenship or origins changes none of those ground truths

(c) You have misunderstood absolutely everything I ever said about MS-13, or similar gangs.

The point was that gangs do not operate out of ideology, or as defenders of community. They operate for profit.

If you think the Cripps are the Black Panthers, or proto-Black Panthers, its sheer fantasy.

They kill anyone weaker than them who stand in their way. Typically that means individuals in their areas who stand up to them (e.g. business or community leaders), or attempt to compete with them for the drug trade. Hence inevitably, the majority of their victims come from *exactly* the same background as them.

If you think that the majority of Latinos in America live in gang contolled areas, that too is fantasy. Spanish Harlem, or East-Central LA are not the kinds of places where the majority of Hispanics in America live. For that matter, the majority of African-Americans do not live in deprived inner-city ghettos - they live in small towns and suburbs throughout the American south occupying every niche in the socio-economic ladder that exists in those areas.

Which is why the most powerful and effective minority leaders have been civil society leaders who represent those perfectly normal communities, people like Cesar Chavez, or Martin Luther King, not criminals or radicals.

All of this is perfectly irrelevant to the thread.

[Rahul Shukla]

About 10 abduls being blasted by Aag-e-jahannum (Hellfire) missiles several kilometers inside Paki territory every other day by Uncle is also an act of war. But do you see Pakis threatning Samuddin by them nooks? Nope! Because they know the consequences that will inevitably follow if they as much as make a whisper while being GUBOed.

The only question is, how big are your crown jewels and the associated QiMei (shaft). If they are big enough, Pakis will bend over for yindoos too and say "Thank you, Sir. But gentle next time please" after you finish.

India should have sunk 3 paki fishing trawlers and at least 1 coast guard boat in open sea in addition to confiscating a large maritime vessel - all under the pretext of 'hot-pursuit' of terrorists while the Mumbai cleanup was going on. Finally, a small vessel should have been sunk smack in the middle of Karachi harbour by air-strike.

Yes, we could have gotten away with this!

[Rahul M]

an example of pure unadulterated DDM that resides at CNN-IBN.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/govt-knew-ab ... -3-p2.html
Arun Shourie / IBNLive Specials

DRIVING THE POINT HOME: Govt has failed to combat terror, Indian Express Editor-in-Chief Arun Shourie writes.

[sudeepj]

Hi

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... ts/392510/
I came across this link in the Indian Express, poor Mumbai Police cops are looking for bullet proof jackets online.

Can we collect some chanda to buy our police departments some jackets that will protect against 7.62X51 cal rifle bullets?

Even if we can buy only 1 jacket per metro, this will perhaps shame our politicians into modernizing our police.

[sanjaykumar]

Johann wrote

For that matter, the majority of African-Americans do not live in deprived inner-city ghettos - they live in small towns and suburbs throughout the American south occupying every niche in the socio-economic ladder that exists in those areas


This is a joke or some very naive liberal fantasy from the NE US or communities along the ringroad, London.

[hnair]

X-posting.

Johann,

Let me start off with the easy parts:

My citizenship or origins changes none of those ground truths

This statement is the crux
1) Ground truth? How do I know YOU are speaking that? Or should I believe it because it is YOU, of a certain citizenship and origin?
2) Your citizenship and origins matter to any Indian, because your citizenship and origins, to put it bluntly has been the root cause of a lot of crap for people of colored origin for centuries. We politely said "enough!" back in 1947, but that doesnt mean we both are cool enough to try such condescending advices in a time of national anger.
3) India is defiant at this moment. NONE of what you say in defense of your societies matters to us. That said, we shall grieve when such deaths as Mumbai's happen anywhere in the world and we shall wish the law enforcement forces in your countries well.

(a) The level of media attention to Mumbai has everything to do with the fact that Western citizens were amongst those targetted - which matters a great deal to the consumers of news back in the home countries of western media outfits.

Yes, we are in agreement on that part right from the beginning - the jihadis who till now were targeting Indians, suddenly went dumb. I am as sad as ever. Nothing changed for me. Maybe for you.

(b) I have not said anything that any number of Indians have not already said for decades regarding political inertia, and the weakness of rule of law in India.

I have not suggested for one second that India ought abandon liberal democracy - in fact that is what has allowed India to survive all of its challenges.

India needs more democracy, not less, and that means all sorts of things, from sensitivity to public concerns, to a government that takes the court system seriously. The issue is not the model, but its application.

To describe the response to Western societies as creating police states is a very poor joke. The right to civil disobedience remains - in fact there's no better way to become an instant hero - Cindy Sheehan or Brian Haw for example are instantly recognised, and are very much untouchable.

In fact I have personally heard retired Indian intelligence officers bitterly complain about the vast resources allocated to political intelligence instead of national security, which exactly mirror what has been written by other retirees in the Indian press. They expected their revelations to create a sensation, instead there was public indifference, which to them was far more crushing than the behaviour of the politicians who ordered them to spy on their opponents in the first place. Watergate simply wouldnt be a scandal in India big enough to bring down a government.

I have been to Chicago last June-July and I personally heard Obama say that white people oppress black people. See? I too got instant credibility for my Colombian dark matter.

Here is another. I know Cindy Sheehan - poor lady never exerted any influence other than that exerted by Jennifer Anniston. She ended up as a sick propaganda peace both inside and outside US. My proof? You are using her here! Tell me what material difference did her brave campaign do to change the fatcats of DC from their ways? None.

(b) You have misunderstood absolutely everything I ever said about MS-13, or similar gangs.

The point was that gangs do not operate out of ideology, or as defenders of community. They operate for profit.

If you think the Cripps are the Black Panthers, or proto-Black Panthers, its sheer fantasy.

They kill anyone weaker than them who stand in their way. Typically that means individuals in their areas who stand up to them (e.g. business or community leaders), or attempt to compete with them for the drug trade. Hence inevitably, the majority of their victims come from *exactly* the same background as them.

Cripps=Black Panthers with a good financial model. Try joining Cripps and get back to me with how the interview went.

I never said ideology, you did. Ideology is something that can be quashed easily in the west. The Chicago univ types make sure of that. But money, now that is an awesome tool. A fact that the "gangs" since Black Panthers found out. BTW, take that as a non-white's viewpoint.

MS-13 started off as a protection racket. Let me drop a name - an officer who later became a Police chief in a US metro area and I used to train for a certain certification (purely sports affair) together. Did his stint with homicide/violent crimes and SWAT at a biggish metro area. Said MS13 was initially very protective of El Salvadorean youth, who were targeted by other gangs and law enforcement.

Again you might also have missed my earlier point: these gangs find that they are being snitched upon by their own community and start going on a rampage against their own kind. They are conveyed in no uncertain terms that gora and only gora is off limits for violence. end result? peaceful "Martha Stewart Living" ambiance for goras, hell for the rest (including central/south americans). Divide and rule, in my books.

If you think that the majority of Latinos in America live in gang contolled areas, that too is fantasy. Spanish Harlem, or East-Central LA are not the kinds of places where the majority of Hispanics in America live. For that matter, the majority of African-Americans do not live in deprived inner-city ghettos - they live in small towns and suburbs throughout the American south occupying every niche in the socio-economic ladder that exists in those areas.

Which is why the most powerful and effective minority leaders have been civil society leaders who represent those perfectly normal communities, people like Ceasr Chavez, or Martin Luther King, not criminals or radicals.

Ceaser Chavez was never threatening. He worked his ass off inside the Latinos, but conformed to dhimmitude. MLK is a different story. He started challenging the spin. And he promptly died of violence "inflicted by his own community member".

All of this is perfectly irrelevant to the thread.

And yet you air dropped a huge load of names and strawmen to my original post

Any other time, I dont really care, because I love the warm feeling of sunshine being blown up my ass. But not today. You are accusing OUR government of continuous ineptitude leading to a huge loss of Indian lives and subtly sowing questions into our mind about some stuff that you are saying is the truth. Your claims of Indian intel chiefs confiding with you just confirms that.

George J, I heard worries about long lead times in US too. Though in public they never say that.

[Manu]

So what has been GOI response to the mumbai Attack:

(1) Shivraj Patil Resigns
(2) RR Patil Resigns
(3) Vilas Rao Deshmukh may resign
(4) PC, who was already under fire as FM becomes HM. Just the right kind of guy to fight terrorists, I suppose.

Anything else?

Even after such an open act of war against our financial capital, we are not able to:
(a) devise a Federal Anti-Terror Agency (because of the Left - the loathsome excreta of India's Body Politic),
(b) cannot reenact POTA (because of UPA allies),
(c) Cannot even Name Pakistan
(d) Will not even talk about the Muslims who have Indian Citizenship who helped in providing shelter, logistics and other help as the "local colloborators"
(e) Still falsely hold the line that "Terrorists have no religion". Yes they do. It is Islam. But the Malegaon conspiracy was hatched presicesly to prevent this.

Essentially, other than a few very incompetent politicians leaving, very little of anything has happened.

What we have seen is that the real Criminals Like Sharad pawar, Mulayam and Lalu have become very patriotic. As have Amitabh Bachchan and other "Bollywood" types.

Folks here are consistently bemoaning the lack of objectivity (and "Sensitivity") shown by the Foreign Press. Well, here in India, we have the ******** Suketu Mehta ("Maximum City") starting with a Hindu Terrorist = = Muslim Terrorist in todays TOI edit page. How about that?

We STILL DO NOT NOW the total number of dead. Some say 99 bodies were recovered from Taj, some say 160. Talk about the indignity of Death.

There is no hope fo this country. We have already surrendered to Radical Islam. Even a complete Non-Response would have been better than what we have today.

And if there is a God, then MMS and Sonia will meet a fate worse than V.P Singh. You cannot escape your Karma.

[Rahul Shukla]

- India should have pursued a measured military strike at sea and sunk Paki naval assets during the Mumbai cleanup to make a much needed point and then delivered the real pain using covert means.

- The very first day of the terrorist attack, GOI should have announced a doubling of Afghan reconstruction aid, training for Afghan military and Air-Force on Indian soil and construction of 3 new Indian consulates within 100 km of Durand line.

- Israel should have been requested to send over 6 F-15's and 6 F-16's for 'routine exercises' and with F-15's based in Rajasthan and F-16's in Gujrat. Paki chain of command would have died of dehydration just p*ssing in their salwars and trembling...

- This should have been followed by steadily escalating economic warfare to make it prohibitively expensive for Samuddin to keep Pak-is-satan economy afloat.

- Clean up house, raise defense budget to 4.5% of GDP, approve major military acquisitions from EU nations under the condition of no military sales to Pakistan, ensure induction of indigenous military hardware in sufficient numbers Indian armed forces (Arjun etc.)...

That's what I would have done.

[Nayak]

Rahul-Al-Gebri mian,

FYI, Afzal Guru is still having biriyani at the tax-payer's expense. I am ashamed at the impotency of the current crop of leaders.

[Rahul Shukla]

Nayakuddin saa'r, these Mumbai attacks were the perfect time to hang Afzal. I know that an Indian would have died in a Paki jail the next day. That is tragic. But when the Supreme Court of India says hang this b@stard, you hang the b@stard. Consequences be damned.

However, if yindoos absolutely want to avoid a reciprocal hanging, then even today Afzal can die of 'natural causes'.

[kmc_chacko]

Why not india supporting Anti-Pakistan activists ?

Break Pakistan apart & make 4-5 nations it will be better to counter.

I am 100% sure that
If Pakistan declares war then . . . . . . . . the first response of India Politicians would be they will go strightly to UN or US ask for ceasfire rather than fight. Becuase a election is comming in next 5-7 months. they have to go for canvasing rather than wasting time in wasting.

[Johann]

x posting again - my suggestion HN, is that we keep it on one thread, preferrably this one.

H Nair,

- I have said more than once on this forum that I am not what most people would consider 'white', so the racial tone of your posts is pointless and misguided.

- My own primary interests because of my professional background have always been in the objective evaluation of military performance - planning, operations, intelligence, co-ordination, decision-making, etc at every level of *every* state. Long timers here such as N3, Rangudu, Rupak, the departed Sunil Sainis, etc with whom I have corresponded can tell you this. This supercedes whatever representation of national, racial, religious, or bloc interests/blame you care to project on me.

For example, during the Israel-Hezballah war, I repeatedly criticised the performance of Israel's political and military leadership, particularly the failure to set firm military-strategic objectives and stick to them, the reluctance to engage in ground operations, the neglect of the reserves, etc. Most of those criticisms were later echoed in the Winograd Commission report.

During the invasion phase of the Iraq war I criticised the lack of forces available to protect lines of communication, the failure to secure the surrender of Iraqi units (instead of their disintegration). During the peak of the insurgency 2003-06 I criticised the US focus on arresting insurgents through raids, or challenging them on the streets instead of insulating communities from insurgent influence by building comprehensive relationships with them. I've always said here that the US Army and Air Force between 1945 and 2006 was far more suited to fighting conventional wars owing to the obstinacy of US Army leadership.

If you think Im singling out the Indian government for special scrutiny or criticism, you couldnt be more wrong. However I dont play what the forum calls 'equal equal' either - some situations are more dysfunctional than others. For that matter, Avram too has a similar record.

That doesnt tar the greatness of India's achievement in maintaining its democracy, or having as I said succeeded in preventing territorial alterations since 1962. I have always defended India's nuclear deterrent, and always argued that India should lead the world's way in dealing with Pakistan, having the widest and deepest pool of expertise in its pathologies, and the greatest ability to tap and broadcast cultural currents.

- The individual in question certainly was not a chief, just an officer who spent his life working to defend India, and whom I was introduced to during a visit. But never mind him - what he says is more or less the same as what IB officers like MK Dhar "Open Secrets" and R.N. Kulkarni "Sin of National Conscience" among others - ie that governments at the centre and state are far more interested in political intelligence than operational intelligence on terrorist groups. The result is that while the terrorist threat to India has grown explosively, the IB's resources grew much more modestly.

- Gangs *only* dominate in economically failed urban areas, places where economic engines have collapsed. Many of these areas were before the oil crises and stagflation of the 1970s solidly black but working middle class. The educated, including the black educated fled those areas, leaving behind only those who were too poor and unskilled and uneducated to relocate. The people left in those areas certainly are not happy about the gangs that dominate those areas - the gangs have filled the vacuum left by retreating city authorities and business.

As for your contention that being white makes you safe - any outsider of *any* race in these ultra-deprived areas wandering around on foot will probably have trouble before long. The exception are those who become known in the area - social workers, missionaries, etc. Gangs actually quite like journalists, writers, anthropologists etc who want to tell the world about them, and who approach them through the proper channels. In fact a fearsome image is quite advantageous - it makes it that much easier to cow down their opponents. Just like all the mafiosi who love Puzo and Coppola for making them famous.

The majority of gang victims are not police informants - they are other gang members in the endless battles over turf - every gang wants to defend its turf, and every one wants to expand. The more turf you control, the more money you make, its that simple. Young members also often have to conduct attacks on members of rival gangs as part of their initiation to demonstrate their courage, commitment, loyalty and obedience- bystanders are often hurt in these drive by attacks. Other killings simply come as a result of individuals who fail to show the proper 'respect' to a gang member, and who are violently disciplined.

However the majority of Blacks and Hispanics are *not* living in economically failed urban areas dominated by gangs. That is in fact precisely the kind of prejudiced and unrepresentative stereotype that Blacks in particular often have to fight. Black does not == gangs. The percentage of American Hispanics living in gang dominated, economically failed areas is even lower.

Johann wrote

For that matter, the majority of African-Americans do not live in deprived inner-city ghettos - they live in small towns and suburbs throughout the American south occupying every niche in the socio-economic ladder that exists in those areas


This is a joke or some very naive liberal fantasy from the NE US or communities along the ringroad, London.

You may want to read this Sanjay; http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/p20-541.pdf

55% of Blacks live in the South. 51.5% live in cities and towns. 88.1% of African American men are legally employed.

[Rahul M]

Johann and hnair, please remove the gang politics discussion to nukkad or US thread.

you have the post edit feature, kindly use it and save this thread from derailment.
thanks.

[SSridhar]

Nayakuddin saa'r, these Mumbai attacks were the perfect time to hang Afzal. I know that an Indian would have died in a Paki jail the next day. That is tragic. But when the Supreme Court of India says hang this b@stard, you hang the b@stard. Consequences be damned.

There should be absolutely no linkages whatsoever in the hanging of a criminal, especially a terrorist waging war against India, with anything else. Any time is a good time after all due legal processes have been exhausted. Somehow, terrorists & terror suspects assume a larger-than-life proportion than ordinary criminals in our country. A government that claims to fight terrorists has to show its determination to its citizens and the potential terrorists that it means business by prosecuting terrorists and implementing the punishment handed over as a result. The current government sounds pathetically hollow when it claims that it will fight terror while at the same time it is unable to mete out a judicial punishment to a confirmed terrorist. So long as the Government lacks a demonstrated will to take on the terrorists ruthlessly, the citizens of this country will always be at the mercy of the terrorists. The earlier government promised to come out with a White Paper on TSP sponsored terror but we never saw one. Throwing out a Shivraj Patil here or sacking a bureaucrat there will be cosmetic and will be perceived so by the terrorists which will only embolden them to mount increasingly audacious attacks. The political class, as a whole, has failed this nation in its fight against terror. The loss of bravehearts like Maj Sandeep go a total and monumental waste in this country which is not politically united even when its very existence is threatened. These politicians do not deserve such selfless servicemen. They try to gain air time and votes even in the deaths of our wonderful brothers and sisters. Political India's response to terrorism is hollow, unimaginative and simply doesn't work putiing common Indians to greater danger every passing day while the political class gets protected increasingly with Z & Z+ category.

[RajeshA]

X-Posting from 'Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III':

Subject: Denuking Strategy

Is there anyway India can strike targets in FATA or NWFP that would be also those that the US might want to strike? Point being that then they can hardly object.

any call for attacking pak w/o taking out the nukes first is inviting suicide.

nukes first, then we can do anything we please with the pakis, our conventional superiority allows it.

If Pakistan was so scared of Indian response they would have NEVER trained these operatives to carry out terror attacks in India.

It is this mentality that leads to such terror acts. Because rest assured, the terror planners in Pakistan are convinced that no matter what they do, we won't respond and hence their families, goats, and cowshed will remain safe.

Respond and test their restraint like they have been testing ours. And if they move a muscle, respond exponentially until they get the point.

that is due to the assurance of the nuclear umbrella, not that of conventional arms.
remove it and pak is ours to bring to its knees.

the conventional disparity b/w Indian and pak is HUGE at the moment.
more so than 1971 which is when pak went towards nuclear arms because they realised they couldn't hope to match India in conventional arms.

think a bit, why didn't PAF join the war during kargil ?
IAF had and the stakes were quite high for the pakis with the entire NLI involved in kargil.

So how is that done?

it's not easy, nor will it be quick.

but if we throw away some of the strategic baggage from the US-Soviet confrontation from our thinking we might just get around to a plausible route of action.

For a start we would require an elaborate, meticulous intelligence effort with full political backing from the political executive for at least 1-2 years, probably more.

The questions needed to be answered being :

>> How many pakistani nukes are there ?
a ball park figure of the max number possible can be arrived at using the figures for fissile material production.
more precise information has to be pieced together from people once related to the pak program but who have since moved away.
This assumes a level of leeway and a mandate R&AW hasn't seen since after the IKG days.

also vital information would be information on convoy procedures of paki nukes. I would assume this is already available. If so, the sats can be used to good effect.

there are many ways of gathering info, with the increasing of islamisation of pak forces, false-flag approach readily suggests itself, to name but one.

An alternative question might be
How many delivery vehicles are there ?

Since this number is likely to be much more than that of the nukes this angle might not be practical.

>>Next question, in what form are they ?
are they fully mated to delivery platform, kept on a few hours stand-by or even more.

this information would be used to prioritise the targeting, mated platforms and air-bases with nuke tasked F-16 squadrons being the first priority. followed by warheads completed but not mated and then others where the cores are kept separate.
if the total number itself is small, then this bit of info has less importance.

>>Very Important, Where are those ?
this is perhaps the most important question of all, and would require a painstaking book-keeping effort to keep track of each and every deployable nuke.
standard op procedures would have to be calibrated,

All the types of intel, HUMINT,ELINT and Sats would be necessary.

one point that makes such a tagging probable is the fact that given the current situation in their country where the army is being targeted day in and day out, TSPA won't move around their nukes too much, it's too much of a risk. the escorts alone would light it up like a christmas tree and attract jehadi attention.
the chances of the paki jewels being in the FATA/NWFP is bleak, that's not to say zero but the number certainly won't be high, if at all.
It is most likely that paki nukes and MRBMs are spread around the TSPA strongholds like the cantonment towns of rawalpindi and quetta.

>>How to take them out ?
This is a question best left to the professionals but I believe that with some effort, the Indian military machine has the ability to hit 30-35 targets simultaneously with some redundancy thrown in. a simultaneous attack on all targets with backing from EW platforms would be able to confuse the paki radar network enough to buy the requisite time.
the confusion need only be in place for the time required for the missiles to find their target.
given the transit times in the Indo-pak context, a prepared Indian force would be able to deliver its blow before the TSP launch orders come in and the birds are launched.(which takes more time)
didn't we hear something about DRDO bunker-busters ?

Rahul M,
I think you are spot on on this.

Let us however, look at reality.
1. Reality is this government cannot/would not go to war with Pakistan, so I doubt very much, that one would be able to seal two of India's national goals: break up of TSP and Control over PoK. That may have to remain a mission for some future government.

2. Manmohan Singh Govt. however has been able to do something, what a BJP or some other Third Front Govt. could not have done: the Nuclear Deal (albeit with blights and blisters). Manmohan Singh's Govt. may not have the security credentials of an Indira Gandhi Govt., but it too does have some strengths: soft power.

3. So I think there is still some nimboo to be squeezed out of this Govt. before it goes. This Government's job is to build the international consensus and framework for defanging of Pakistan. With that I mean the following:

a) the international community (in a broader sense, than how the West understands the word) has the same dossier on the Pakistan national dilemma, political situation and security situation including all the various policies and acts where the Pakistani establishment (there is no such thing as the Pakistani State) has deliberately supported and encouraged terrorists, terrorist infrastructure and terrorism. Everybody ought to be on the same page on this. I would include the Arabs, Iranians, Turks, Malaysians and Indonesians on the one hand, but also Brazil, South Africa, Nigeria, Mexico, etc. in this. If you bring in the third league powers into this, then their sense of added importance can mean more support to us. Thirdly Pakistan should not be able to turn this into some sort of Yindoo+Yehudi+Yankee conspiracy against the Muslim world. Even Iran may play ball, knowing that the pressure on it may subside and attention may be drawn elsewhere. India needs the US and EU and some third league countries on this first to gain extra credibility on this.

b) Pakistan should be declared as an economically failed state. IMF loans should not go through so economically it would be practically a failed state. On this the international community should simply say, that the Pakistanis should find the necessary finances through a corruption investigation and all the Generals and Feudals should be forced to bring back their stashed billions home. There is no need for external financing. TSP Generals and Feudals want to divert the attention of the world away from the economic collapse of the country and be held responsible for it. We should keep the worlds and Pakistanis attention firmly fixed to the betrayal of the Rich of the Poor of Pakistan. There should be wide-spread leaks of how much money the Generals and Feudals may have stacked up in foreign accounts. These should be thoroughly discredited. Unsure: Maybe Feudals should be left alone to be of use to India later on.

c) Pakistan should be declared as security-wise a failed state. Based on the dossier mentioned above in a) including the exact intelligence available about the Terror Attacks in Mumbai, the conclusion should be that the Pakistani establishment, the true power brokers, have decided on a course of terrorism. People of many nationalities were brutally killed in the attacks. There is no guarantee, that Pakistan would be a reliable citizen of the international community and NOT make nuclear materials available to the terrorists. As such Nuclear Weapons in Pakistan are not secure, regardless of whether there is an Islamist coup, a Taliban takeover or not, because a de-facto coup by terrorism supporters has already taken place within the Pakistani establishment.

d) A UNSC Resolution should be passed under Chapter VII asking Pakistan to go through a full nuclear disarmament, and if it does not do this on its own, the international community should ensure this goal. If there is a forceful international commitment on this, China would probably give in, as China too does not want to be linked with nuclear arms in the hands of terrorists. China too is vulnerable on Turkestan/Uighur to nuclear blackmail by Islamists. The Arabs may not support this as such, that is why it is important that they be brought on board on the question of terrorism emanating from Pakistan first. India would of course have to spear-head this Resolution with prior coordination with USA, Russia and EU.

e) In the mean India, US, Israel and hopefully Russia should come together, work out a military strategy to take out Pakistani nuclear bombs and the pieces for a successful outcome of this strategy should be put in place. Rahul M has already gone into this question above.

Many here would of course see such a course of action as a mere waste of time, but in the long run, it would not hurt if there are a few UNSC Resolutions against Pakistan as well. We all know how they can haunt one for a very long time, and be used as levers of pressure and even permission to strike. Moreover Obama would be able to showcase his own style of working, i.e. going through international organizations etc and not going for preemptive strikes like in Iraq without a UNSC Resolution allowing for use of force.

In the aftermath of the Mumbai Attacks, India enjoys much international goodwill. Obama, the first Afro-American President of the USA also enjoys much international goodwill. USA is at the moment very nervous, that a war should not break out between India and Pakistan. They would be willing to play ball if India offers anything less than war. So the chances are quite good that Manmohan Singh could deliver on such a package before he leaves office.

It is either this, where India sets the process, or it is Bill Clinton coming to India to 'solve' Kashmir.

[Manu]

It is business as usual in Mumbai

Here we are Folks, "The Spirit of Mumbai".

Akin to the Spirit of a Woman who is repeatedly Raped and refuses to take her own life. Pathetic. Read the Indian Media before you criticize the foreign Media.