Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

[bart]

Heroes of the Taj

these guys died while on duty:

Vijay Banja (48)
Gautam Gosain (22)
Kaizad Kamdin (28)
Zaheen Mateen (25)
Faustine Martis (47)
Sadanand Patil (25)
Rahamathulla (54)
Boris Rego (23)
Thomas Verghese (53)
Rabindra Kanmar (32)

Oberoi

Jones Fernandes of Vasai (near mumbai)

3-4 of them were the finest chefs in the country. A major loss whichever way you look at it.

[yvijay]

sub inspector Kadam who took part in the combat on marine drive to
stop the skoda octavia said he had done his annual firing course but not any real life firing. does anyone know how frequently the regular Mumbai police get to practice live firing and what is the duration of that exercise?

I hope its not a annual 2-day thing.

As per my friend, whose dad works for AP police, the normal cops practice only once a year. Its only the Grey Hounds that get to practice more often. Mantris and babus have money for getting new shiny cars, but not bullets for cops.

[Singha]

IBNLIVE:

R R Patil has resigned after being asked to by Sharad Pawar.

'Sources' are saying that CM Deshmukh will resign in 24 hrs.

----

what I wonder is how patriotic is Pawar sahib himself?

[ramana]

All this crowd control BS is for samll populations situations. Crowd control would have caused more law enforcement to be diverted from the task at hand which is to combat the terrorshits. The esteemed CNN reporters hould have exercised some self preservation and kept dsitance.

Vilas Rao Deshmukh should go for his attepmt at disaster tourism. He should not have had filmi log in his enoturage. Very bad decision making skills. Good that RR patil has seen some sense and resinged. This attack is much worse than Akshardam.

Also since when is L-e-T a J&K terrorists organsization. It was and is a Pakjabi terrorist operation. Need to counter the Western media myopia on this.

[sunilUpa]

According to Timesnow there is an understanding b/w Congress and NCP that one from each at state level will resign.

I remember seeing good police presence armed with SLR/Sten guns at CST. When did this change? They used to be at the entrance.

[Ujjal]

Times Now stream : http://94.75.220.137/idesitv.com-timesnow-3933j3222333

in case you want to use VLC and not have your IE/FF open.

[bart]

as per reports there were supposed to be 4 rings - NSG/paraSF/Marcos in 1st ring, regular IA in 2nd and mumbai ATS in 3rd. the 4th ring was supposed to be local police - by rights this ring should have focussed outward - keeping crowds and media under control. but mostly they also
seemed to be carrying guns and focussed inward.

I think 80% of the blame still lies with media people. Running around out of control like rabid dogs and not showing any decency. There is only so much the police can do when hi-fi media persons are so lacking in common sense and civic duty.

Contrast with the NSG sniffer dog labradors in the picture, 1000 times more professional and civilized.

I think as and when introspection is done about the incidents, media handling needs to be looked at. I think these should include:
1> During such incidents having one single camera crew and feed onsite, all other media not allowed near the scene. The feed can be shared and downlinked for free by any stations. Onsite journalist should be a senior and mature enough person.
2> Censorship of what is said - throughout the incident the media were in effect providing running commentry of the goings-on outside to the terrorists, just like the Naseeruddin Shah's character was using the media in 'A Wednesday'.
3> Not disclosing operational details such as NSG signalling techniques, asking NSG personal for their names and identities, pestering tired NSG personnel (after 36 hr operations) for comments etc.
4 > Asking questions in an orderly fashion instead of behaving like quarreling fisherwomen.
5> Avoiding spreading rumors like firing in CST (after the Taj seige was over). This applies especially to hindi channels where were (and still are) in the 'Sansani Khes'' mode of reporting.

[Singha]

quite true. its a poor reflection of the type of citizens our media are in real life. ratings are not everything.

[sunilUpa]

quite true. its a poor reflection of the type of citizens our media are in real life. ratings are not everything.

God knows how many of the commandos were injured/died due to indiscretion by press and how many hostages died! Those mofos at NDTV were first to broadcast Sniper positions at Taj.

[milindc]

The entire media contingent of 'pro-terrorist' Congress party is trying to spin away the responsibility from Sonia Gandhi. NDTV and CNN-IBN doing the hatch job from Sonia.

Sonia scolding the UPA Govt (not her Govt)
Sonia angry at Patil
Sonia wants accountability

This is being done very meticulously to deflect blame from Sonia

[Johann]

I request Avram, Johann and matthew g to exercise some caution in criticising the rescue efforts till the wounds heal.

Thanks, ramana

Ramana,

I agreed in my post that Avram's tone was inappropriate.

I have made it clear in my posts that most of those involved did the best they could under the circumstances.

However it is far from inappropriate to look at preparedness for such attacks given the history of the recent past.

Disclaimer: I do not support any gang violence by any ethnicity, but am interested in the "root causes", that the west's favored ally, Musharraf keeps saying through their own media.

I suspect that this extreme publicity by the western media to Mumbai is to inoculate their population about an impending carnage in their own cities. All western cities have huge pile of arms, sleazy underground mafias that can be made to do false flag operations and an easily scared general public. Add to that, the abundance of socially disadvantaged and pissed off people of color/ethnicity and you really dont need an islamic group to start off such stunts. When I pointed out how MS-13's LA edition started off, Johann has once condescendingly mentioned how MS13 type gangs kill "more latinos than others" and that he travels on both sides of the border of US/Mexico to figure that out. What he forgot to mention is what the latino (or african-american) community elders talk. They are clear on this bullshit of "more <insert a colored race> are killed by the <colored gang> than others" bilge that is fed via the US establishment/media. Let me explain what I heard:

This "they kill you more than they kill us" is a typical gora suggestive campaign, to demoralize these minorities and make them turn against each other. The advantage is that this minority community, in its desperate struggle for survival in gora-territory, will snuff out the violent ones as well as anyone who has decided to says enough is enough in a peaceful way. This is a new version of that good old classic, "divide and rule", aided and abetted by the media. What happens in most western cities is the gora-run establishment will make life hell for an ethnic minority that hurts goras physically or destabilizes their own sweet, idyllic, suburban "Desperate Housewives" ambiance. Such a minority is forced, coerced, socially boycotted and sometimes jailed to submission. Their members are encouraged to rat/snitch on *anyone*, including people who are peacefully protesting injustices. Finally the community is split into dhimmis and rebels. The dhimmis say "let us listen to gora,he is right". The rebels gets pissed, suspect a sellout and starts killing the dhimmis. And the minority community will see an upsurge in cops recruitment, to um, "diversify". Shootouts will be between rebels and these new cops. Gora smiles at this, puts one more feather in his cap and moves on with life. That minority community will see a lot of unwanted violence/deaths because gora cannot tame the rebels to agree to his terms nor do they want to uplift these minorities out of their social disadvantages in a systemic way. Gora finds it a lot more cost-effective to let the minorities kill each other and solve his problems. Good business sense in a way.

Any crimes committed *against* these minorities will not make any headlines, but crimes against goras are bloated beyond belief. Witness the difference in coverage between a no-name Natalie Holloway to a hip-hop legend like Tupac Shakur. This common resentment against "divide and rule" amongst the african-american community was expressed eloquently by Chris Rock during his standup routines. Dave Chapelle is another comedienne who made some really scathing skits based on this angst of African-american community elders.

A minority that challenges the "Desperate Housewives" ambiance with their own music, dressing, social customs or force are made to go through this "they hurt you more than they hurt us" ritual. Look at the initial attempts at suppressing hip-hop culture: denigration of their baggy dresses(a symbolic statement by the hip-hop community about Thrift store wardrobes that they could afford), drug running (ironically, most of the meth labs are run by whites) and apparent laziness to work (from social coercion). A rather amusing spectacle happens when the community still doesnt give up, but instead captures the gora public's imagination: gora establishment goes on overdrive to make money out of the whole "minority-chic". Obama is a shrewd person who actually turned the tables using this minority-chic sentiment, at the same time capturing the gora-public imagination. Quite a sad spectacle to behold for us Indians, who has escaped colonialism of the worst kind.

Where am I going with this? The Mumbai attack will give ideas to a lot of people who are pissed. The west will have a tough time if Bradford, Paris suburbs or the innercities of US decides to stop believing "you are hurting yourselves more than us" and emulate these crazed pakis. The difference is that they dont have to land there in boats with the guns. It is already there in the 2nd amendment and in the Walmarts. So those of them who sneer at the Battle of Mumbai, they are actually wetting their pants. IMO, only France (yes, the surrender monkeys) **might** have the tenacity and grit to fight out a prolonged urban war and yet come out stronger as a nation like India. The rest are not going to have it easy. Based on past performances (right from colonial times), their public are not as discerning as Indians, who know the difference between a "war for profits" and a "war that is thrust on us". Even the humblest voter in India knows the dos and donts. Come elections, sometimes we punish our leaders for the deaths of Indians. And then sometimes we dont, because we know that some things were out of these politicians hands. Bhagavad Geetha 101.

Israelis should realize that they are fast running out of options - their enemy is adapting to smarter techniques (witness the egypt border opening incident) and their allies are shrinking fast. Add to that the fact that their military is being challenged regularly. And sometimes successfully too.

Only Pakistani elites are idiotic enough to support the violent terrorists at a society level and then later on believe "You have to fight them for your own good" words of wisdom of gora. Only they will bitch about predator attacks, get their soldiers killed in their own territory, while still foolishly supporting terrorism. But then they never had a clue about rights and wrong.

Johann, stop trying to convince us that India should turn into a police state like those in the west or a huge barrack like Israel. I know your postings were highly critical of the Pakis, but a lot of us die because of your country and its big brothers' direct and indirect help. Stop trying to turn us against our own Govt by saying "Indians hurt more than others due to other Indians". We are not going to do that. Thanks.

H Nair,

(a) The level of media attention to Mumbai has everything to do with the fact that Western citizens were amongst those targetted - which matters a great deal to the consumers of news back in the home countries of western media outfits.

(b) I have not said anything that any number of Indians have not already said for decades regarding political inertia, and the weakness of rule of law in India.

I have not suggested for one second that India ought abandon liberal democracy - in fact that is what has allowed India to survive all of its challenges.

India needs more democracy, not less, and that means all sorts of things, from sensitivity to public concerns, to a government that takes the court system seriously. The issue is not the model, but its application.

To describe the response to Western societies as creating police states is a very poor joke. The right to civil disobedience remains - in fact there's no better way to become an instant hero - Cindy Sheehan or Brian Haw for example are instantly recognised, and are very much untouchable.

In fact I have personally heard retired Indian intelligence officers bitterly complain about the vast resources allocated to political intelligence instead of national security, which exactly mirror what has been written by other retirees in the Indian press. They expected their revelations to create a sensation, instead there was public indifference, which to them was far more crushing than the behaviour of the politicians who ordered them to spy on their opponents in the first place. Watergate simply wouldnt be a scandal in India big enough to bring down a government.

My citizenship or origins changes none of those ground truths

(b) You have misunderstood absolutely everything I ever said about MS-13, or similar gangs.

The point was that gangs do not operate out of ideology, or as defenders of community. They operate for profit.

If you think the Cripps are the Black Panthers, or proto-Black Panthers, its sheer fantasy.

They kill anyone weaker than them who stand in their way. Typically that means individuals in their areas who stand up to them (e.g. business or community leaders), or attempt to compete with them for the drug trade. Hence inevitably, the majority of their victims come from *exactly* the same background as them.

If you think that the majority of Latinos in America live in gang contolled areas, that too is fantasy. Spanish Harlem, or East-Central LA are not the kinds of places where the majority of Hispanics in America live. For that matter, the majority of African-Americans do not live in deprived inner-city ghettos - they live in small towns and suburbs throughout the American south occupying every niche in the socio-economic ladder that exists in those areas.

Which is why the most powerful and effective minority leaders have been civil society leaders who represent those perfectly normal communities, people like Ceasr Chavez, or Martin Luther King, not criminals or radicals.

All of this is perfectly irrelevant to the thread.

[ramana]

Mattew, Relax. Not at this time. ramana

[Philip]

Ramanna and may others on the Forum are spot on.This was NO simple terrorist act,but an act of WAR.It was planned well in advance,during the age of the Musharrat regime,with the full knowledge of the Paki armed forces,as even the Paki Navy was in the training loop.I hazard a theory,that surfaced early on in the event,that the capture of the terrorist suspect responsible for the Bombay train bombings in Britain,who had advance knowledge of this plot,made the Pakis bring forwrard this operation,before information leaked out from him.It could've been timed for Navy Day/Navy Week,just days away,the day on which the IN devastated Karachi in '71.It would've been highly symbolic as revenge for the Karachi attack.Thanks to the builders of the Taj and the Oberoi,Jamshedji Tata and MS Oberoi,the two hotels withstood all attempts to destroy them completely and still stand battered but proud symbols that though India might take losses it never will be defeated.

That the aim of Pak was to sabotage Indo-Pak peace initiatives,which would've left the Paki armed forces jobless,as well as sabotaging the US/NATO operations to defeat the Taliban (read Pak military/ISI),where the west is taking a pasting from the advancing Taliban, seriously threatening the survival of the Karzai regime.Here are some international reports on the same subject.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 42724.html

Terrorist outlaws – or a group with friends in high places?

By Kim Sengupta

Monday, 1 December 2008
Activists of the right-wing Hindu Shiv Sena party shout slogans against Pakistan's intelligence agency at a demonstration in the city of Amritsar yesterday

India lashes out at old enemy
The tragic story capturing the Indian public's imagination
Indians demand to know why warnings were ignored

The prime suspect for the attack on Mumbai, Lashkar-e-Toiba, is the biggest and most violent of the Islamist groups fighting against India for a separate Kashmir. It has also, over the years, built up close links with al-Qa'ida and ISI, the Pakistani intelligence service.

It is Lashkar's policy of bombings and shootings within India as well as Kashmir that has brought Pakistan and India, two nuclear-armed powers, to the brink of conflict in recent years. The link to the ISI, often described as a state-within-a-state in Pakistan, may again shift relations between India and Pakistan to incendiary levels if evidence is uncovered that the intelligence organisation was involved in the attack.

Delhi has repeatedly accused Islamabad of actively colluding in the group's attacks and threatened retribution. The Pakistanis deny the charge and point out that the organisation is banned in the country.

The Pakistani defence, analysts point out, is disingenuous. It is indeed the case that the group was officially outlawed by Pervez Musharraf under American pressure in 2002 after a series of bombings in Delhi. However, Lashkar simply continued under the new name of Jama'at-ud-Da'wah. What appears to be the case is that even the country's military regime had little control over a client organisation of the ISI, and the fundamentalists in the armed forces hierarchy and the current civilian government is far more impotent to curb the militants that the Pakistani state had once had a part in creating.

Lashkar, and similar groups, receive funding as well as recruits from the Kashmiri, and broad Pakistani community. One of its more infamous recruits was Rashid Rauf, who was wanted in connection with the plot to blow up transatlantic airliners and was recently reported to have been killed in an American air strike in North Waziristan. Some of the funds donated by the wider Western public, and, ironically India, following the earthquakes of three years ago were siphoned into Lashkar funds. It is also the beneficiary, according to Pakistani and Western analysts, of large scale funding from the ISI.

Lashkar maintains close relationship with al-Qa'ida and other jihadist organisations. Some of its fighters were killed in an al-Qa'ida camp when Bill Clinton ordered missile strikes against Osama bin Laden following the bombing of the US embassy in the Kenyan capital. The organisation's camp at Muridke near Lahore, was used as a hideout by two senior al-Qa'ida operatives, Ramzi Yousef and Mir Aimal Kansi.

Although the organisation's chief aim is to drive Indian forces out of Kashmir, it was originally founded in 1991 by Hafiz Muhammad Saeed in the Kunar province of Afghanistan to fight against the then Marxist government in Kabul. It has sent members to fight alongside the Taliban in Afghanistan. In return, Pakistani, as well as Arab and Chechen fighters, were among Lashkar forces sent into Kashmir against Indian forces.

Hafiz Muhammad Saeed remains its spiritual leader with Maulana Abdul Wahid Kashmiri its military commander. The group calls for the destruction of India and Israel, and also has the professed aim of introducing Islam wherever there had been a significant Muslim population any time in history, including Spain, Russia and China. Lashkar also advocates the establishment of Sharia law and the Muslim "universal ummah" within Muslim communities in the West including the UK.

It is, however, Kashmir and India which have been the scene of most its activity, with some of its operations inside India conducted with home-grown Islamist groups such the Indian Mujaheddin. The group has been accused of mass killings of Sikhs and Hindus in Kashmir; the bombings at Delhi markets which killed 60 people, the deaths of 90 people in explosions at the Hindu pilgrim city of Benares, 211 more in blasts on commuter trains in Mumbai, and the attack on parliament in Delhi in 2001 which brought India and Pakistan to the brink of war in 2001.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 263919.ece

Mumbai attacks ‘were a ploy to wreck Obama plan to isolate al-Qaeda’
The carnage may have been an attempt to put Pakistan and India at each other’s throats and kill US hopes for the region

PS:However,Obama was only recently elected and the planning for this operation was done at least 6 months ago from emerging evidence.But one of the aims was certainly to create a situation where Pakistan would stop fighting its own child the Taliban in Afghanistan,only achievable by tension with India and the withdrawal of its troops to the eastern front. That would allow the Taliban to operate without fear of attacks from "behind".

[George J]

..........You ask rhetorically, does every American city have a fully equipped equivalent of the NSG around? They dont need to. Most American cities have a sufficiently well equipped and trained SWAT team that would be able to arrive on the scene within 15 minutes of a 9-11 call, and while not at the same level as the HRT, or Delta, would be able to provide an effective immediate response (thanks to the lessons learned). In the event that they needed more manpower they would be backed up by SWAT teams from surrounding cities. ..............

..............The first Jefferson County SWAT team, a group of 20 people thrown together during the crisis under the command of Lieutenant Terry Manwaring, made it as far as Pierce and Leawood (near the school), where they stopped to set up a staging area. It was nearly 12:00 PM - an hour after they were called to the scene - before they actually approached the school. Only 12 of them moved in, behind the cover of fire trucks that they moved in close to the building. Denver SWAT Captain Vincent DiManna also arrived onscene about that time, with 4 more SWAT members. His son was a student at Columbine High and possibly in the building still.

Oh wait you said things have improved after 9/11

The first Cleveland police officers to respond to Wednesday's school shooting at SuccessTech Academy were not trained in responding to such incidents. After terrified children called 9-1-1 Wednesday, Cleveland police waited 54 minutes to call in the heavily armored SWAT unit. When the SWAT officers finally massed outside the school, it was 2:28 p.m., nearly an hour and 20 minutes had passed.

Also a quick google shows that SWAT response time is 30-60 min depending on the assessment of the first responders. I don't know if you have been following the time lines but the Marcos were requested around 10:30 ish and were ACTIVE on both scenes by mid-night.

Singha:
What ParaSF?

[AdityaM]

The Patils are gone!

Where is the President of India ?
Does anyone even remember that she exists !

Has this Patil made any public display of concern?

[Nayak]

Poda patti polayadimone. Thayoli. Ninde ammayoddu mathi arengettam.

Nayak - who's a dork? Aren't u just happy wanking of bhurkha dutt, residing somewhere in Ooganda.

Quick-gun JaGan,

Where are you ? I used a four letter word and got a IED Mubarak and we have a rabid dog frothing from all orifices yet I don't see any animal handlers willing to put this creature out of it's misery ?

[Austin]

IBNLIVE:

R R Patil has resigned after being asked to by Sharad Pawar.

'Sources' are saying that CM Deshmukh will resign in 24 hrs.

----

what I wonder is how patriotic is Pawar sahib himself?

Well the decision to kick of Deshmukh was done yesterday.... but NCP/Cogress has this tie up where if one of your man goes , one of mine goes as well , since RR has done too many things wrong and being deputy CM he had to go first and now Deshmukh follows.

I too have grave doubts about Pawar patriotism , he was accused of being supportive of D Company ( his police man just shot the other gangster except D men and his telgi links are well known)

I think we should also stop this Kricket tamasha for some time , this is a National Tragedy and the money making BCCI should understand this ....... this is not the time for Test matches or 20-20

[sunilUpa]

..........You ask rhetorically, does every American city have a fully equipped equivalent of the NSG around? They dont need to. Most American cities have a sufficiently well equipped and trained SWAT team that would be able to arrive on the scene within 15 minutes of a 9-11 call, and while not at the same level as the HRT, or Delta, would be able to provide an effective immediate response (thanks to the lessons learned). In the event that they needed more manpower they would be backed up by SWAT teams from surrounding cities. ..............

..............The first Jefferson County SWAT team, a group of 20 people thrown together during the crisis under the command of Lieutenant Terry Manwaring, made it as far as Pierce and Leawood (near the school), where they stopped to set up a staging area. It was nearly 12:00 PM - an hour after they were called to the scene - before they actually approached the school. Only 12 of them moved in, behind the cover of fire trucks that they moved in close to the building. Denver SWAT Captain Vincent DiManna also arrived onscene about that time, with 4 more SWAT members. His son was a student at Columbine High and possibly in the building still.

Also a quick google shows that SWAT response time is 30-60 min depending on the assessment of the first responders. I don't know if you have been following the time lines but the Marcos were requested around 10:30 ish and were ACTIVE on both scenes by mid-night.

Singha:
What ParaSF?

Everybody is harping on time it took for NSG to deploy...forgetting that Marcos had engaged the piglets roughly 9 hours before first NSG commando set foot in Mumbai.

[Nayak]

Has this Patil made any public display of concern?

She is on a APAC tour, currently in Indonesia I think. I doubt other than usual platitudes of restraint and bhaichaara, madam has spoken anything of value.

[Anujan]

The prime suspect for the attack on Mumbai, Lashkar-e-Toiba, is the biggest and most violent of the Islamist groups fighting against India for a separate Kashmir. It has also, over the years, built up close links with al-Qa'ida and ISI, the Pakistani intelligence service.

Philip-saar, I know that you quoted an article and these are not your words.

Just for the record, LeT is not an Islamist group fighting India in JK. They are an irregular arm of the Paki Intelligence and the Army to do the political bidding of the pakis with plausible deniability. It used to be the case that Jihad in JK was Paki policy till 2003, so major LeT involvement was in JK. Now the Paki policy is to 1. show India is as unsafe as pakistan 2. Try and create a root for a "locally grown" jihadi movement all over India 3. Relieve pressure from Unkil in their tribal areas and perceived India "intervention" in A'stan, reflected in LeT's attacks over the rest of India.

LeT seem to have the full backing of the Army. They seem to have the backing of Punjabi landowners who perceive the LeT as a "safer" option than the tribal Islamists. They seem to have a partial backing of the government (the Islamist faction), who seem to encourage their "charitable" arm to contribute during natural calamities to win public popularity.

The "Kashmiri" fighters (Hezbul Mujahideen, JKLF) have all be roundly defeated by India.

[Singha]

if the small number (20-25) of marcos had not gone in and kept the terrorists engaged all through the night, there would surely be more killed among civilians(they would kill more people hiding in locked rooms), rig up more explosives to kill NSG later. they would also have organized close
protection to people being evacuated.

it was a stroke of fortune they were available.

[bart]

I think we should also stop this Kricket tamasha for some time , this is a National Tragedy and the money making BCCI should understand this ....... this is not the time for Test matches or 20-20

I disagree about the cricket. Its not a matter of money, but of making a statement of defiance against the terrorists. The ODI series was canceled because of the terrorist strikes. England coming back and playing a test series is an important statement, and also something that will ensure no equal-equal with TSP (in terms of other countries refusing to tour) which will cause a lot of heartburn to them.

It may be 'just a game' and the results of the series might be less relevant, but it is one small battle nevertheless within the overall war, and we need it.

[Nayak]

We have the commie-monkeys, exhibiting their amoebaiec intelligence.

CPM wants govt to approach UN with proof of Pak involvement

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 776895.cms

30 Nov 2008, 0000 hrs IST, TNN
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
NEW DELHI: Reflecting the outrage that the Mumbai attack has caused in the country, the CPM politburo on Sunday demanded that once the evidence of Pakistani links was established, India should take it up in the UN Security Council.

At the end of its two-day meeting, the politburo said, "After investigation, when evidence of the links in Pakistan of the persons who committed this terrorist outrage is established, the government should take up the matter with the United Nations Security Council."

CPM also pointed out that under UN Security Council Resolution against terrorism (1373), all states have obligations to take steps against terrorist activities and to deny "safe havens to those who finance, plan, support or commit terrorist acts". The Security Council can decide on the measures to be adopted to identify and curb such terrorist activities.

CPM, which had a bitter parting with Congress on the Indo-US nuclear deal in July, said post-Mumbai attack, political parties should rise above partisan interests. "This is the time for all sections of people and political circles to rise above any sectarian interests and ensure that the unity and integrity of the country is safeguarded by curbing all forms of terrorism, whatever their source," it said.

CPM also advised the government to draw correct and prompt lessons from the "grim incident". "The continuous and widespread terrorist attacks which have occurred in the country have shown up the weakness in our intelligence and security systems. The country expects the government to immediately take effective steps to revamp and strengthen the intelligence and security set-up. A beginning has to be made by identifying and taking steps against the forces with external links who have perpetrated this crime," it said.

[Arjun]

Fromt he article that Philip quoted:

His warning, highlighting the international implications of the Mumbai attacks, was clearly designed to encourage the United States and its allies to temper India’s response. The United States has forged a new strategic partnership with India since 2004, but has closer and older ties to Pakistan, a key Muslim partner in the War on Terror.

Notice how right after the US - India partnership for the nuclear deal was trumpeted as the most strategic by far in recent times, the US has turned around to saying that ties with Pakistan are 'closer and older' !!!

[sunilUpa]

Has this Patil made any public display of concern?

She is on a APAC tour, currently in Indonesia I think. I doubt other than usual platitudes of restraint and bhaichaara, madam has spoken anything of value.

She is in India now and is visiting Mumbai today.

[Austin]

MARCOS being there is just a matter of sheer luck they are based just stone throw away from Taj , but lts assume had this tragedy happened in Bangalore or chennai where NSG took 8 hours to reach , the picture would have been different

It may be 'just a game' and the results of the series might be less relevant, but it is one small battle nevertheless within the overall war, and we need it.

This is a game and we have 365 days in a year to play .... at the end of the day cricket is entertainment for public and money making for BCCI.

This is a national tragedy....... this is a time we need to stop , think and act .

Kricket may be some other day , some other time.

[trivedi]

The Patils are gone!

Hope Deshmukh is next. And someone chain Raj Thackeray to a tree so he doesn't bite anyone while he's barking his way into oblivion.

News now that Deshmukh is out too. Looks like God is granting my wishes today. Next up A.N.Roy!

Any favorites here for Deshmukh / Roy's replacements? (Remember that we are unfortunately stuck with the bloody Kangress in MH)

[Johann]

George,

Within 60 minutes is the general response time American SWAT teams shoot for, but armed police are expected to hold the ring isolate any armed attackers and hold the ring around them well before that.

It is considerably faster for 'high profile' targets in the larger cities, say Union Station in NYC, or LAX airport - ie downtown areas, and transportation hubs, the kind of targets terrorists favour - closer to 15 minutes.

[Dhiman]

With respect to bureaucrats, at least the following need to go:

1. National Security Advisor
2. Chief of RAW
3. Chief of IB
4. Navy Chief
5. Coast Guard Chief
6. Coastal Police Chief
7. Mumbai Police Chief

[ramana]

Phillip, its a red herring that US worries that TSP will stop fighting the Pakiban and that would cause a surge of Taleban. This is a non sequitor for its the TSPA that nurtures the Paki/Taliban and enables the attacks of the Taleban and their removal will allow the US to operate with impunity in the FARTA region. They should welcome Indian help in relieving the pressure for them in Afganistan.

BTW, it seesm that there were two warnings from IB and RAw on Nov 12 and 19th to Maharashtra govt. hence the head rolling.

I think IAS will also go at Delhi and Mumbai. Some IPS already paid with lives.

[svinayak]

Yasmin Alibhai-Brown: Muslims must confront the truth about Mumbai
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/co ... 42753.html

There must be Muslims in India who are supporting the unsupportable

Monday, 1 December 2008
In the immediate aftermath of the Mumbai attacks, wild speculations swirled, furious cyclones that threw up windy and wild theories, charged conspiracies and noisy condemnation. Inevitable perhaps, just human nature responding fearfully to sudden and unspeakable violence. The terrorists cleaved the body, heart and soul of this cosmopolitan, enterprising hub which draws to its bosom the richest and most wretched of the earth. What they did coldly in hotels, cafés and the Jewish centre was as atrocious as the killings in Beslan. But as the panic subsides, it is the duty of all world citizens to confront truths, however inconvenient.

Instead we see a scandalous passing of the buck. "Can't be, won't be, not our native sons," say India, Pakistan and Britain as they set about impugning each other explicitly and implicitly. It is a form of post-trauma nationalism that can grip wounded nations and was most vividly manifested in the US after 9/11. Meanwhile, millions of Muslims, also traumatised, habitually revisit sites of conflict – Palestine, Kashmir, Afghanistan and Iraq – or list other legitimate grievances to explain away each successive act of Islamist violence.

Denial and obfuscation once again stop us from examining who the killers were, why they did what they did, the places and times they pick. It is not to exonerate them or forgive them, but to acquire vital data and a deeper understanding of the international networks and the mental states of the perpetrators – their religious and political ideologies. This essential information cannot be extracted through torture or the outlandish "evidence" of anti-Muslim, neo-con think tanks whose agenda we know all too well.

Years on from the al-Qa'ida assault on the US, with two wars still going on, Guantanamo Bay and other rendition centres doing their filthy work, Islamist assassins can still strike in Mumbai. We have no psychological profiling, no dependable evidence to stop the next time. Is that not chilling? As big a problem is the pathological reluctance of nations to examine how their politics and policies bear some responsibility for the support given to men of terror.

Take India. Its people, economy, history, culture and democratic credentials make it a remarkable country. It is also a nation which tolerates shocking poverty, inequality, caste and religious injustice and gender oppression. Some Indian Muslims have done brilliantly well in the last decade or so, too many though are trapped in poverty and have fallen below the lowest of the Hindu castes.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh appears sanguine about this Muslim underclass and has done little to bring to trial those responsible for the massacres of Muslims in Gujarat. Nothing is done to quell the physical abuse and oppression of Kashmiris by the Indian security services. Even if the terrorists came from Pakistan – there must be Muslims in India who feel unsafe in their land and so support the unsupportable. Ashok Mehta, a security analyst, says: "Without help, the terrorists would not have known how to enter the hotels or where the exits are. This operation would have been well-rehearsed and there certainly would have been local guides." That kind of talk is taboo in complacent India.

Then there are the deniers, who are outraged if you suggest that Pakistan breeds Islamists who terrorise their own country. Ahmed Rashid is one of the world's most authoritative Pakistani authors. His latest book, Decent Into Chaos: The US And The Failure Of Nation-Building In Pakistan, Afghanistan And Central Asia, tells how his country is now increasingly lawless, churning out young people filled with homicidal aspirations. Many in the political and military establishment back the jihadis. I said so on the BBC this weekend and was then forced to shelter from the torrent of abuse from "patriotic" Pakistanis. Sara writes: "Just because these men were Muslims doesn't mean they were the financiers." The men were probably Indian double agents, says another Pakistani. A man from Burnley calls me "a ****** Zionist". Don't ask me why.

Here, after some early, irresponsible coverage claimed some of the killers were British, there is now an assumption that there is no connection at all. I think we need to wait and see. The Government still refuses to accept the implicit contribution that our foreign policies have made, and as yet has commissioned no credible, long-term research on radicalisation.

After Obama's victory, the world felt optimistic. That India and Pakistan (a democracy again) were at last trying to rebuild trust gave pause for cautious hope. The Mumbai terrorists shattered all that and once more, we are lost in misinformation and misapprehension.

[email protected]

[Austin]

There are talks of PMO Prithiviraj Chauhan as CM of MAH , Mumbai Police commisioner is Pawar perrogative , who ever he chooses becomes the commisioner of Mumbai

They say if big shots will go now , it will hamper investigation , any way just resigning will not change the system , we need inistitutions and mindset to change

[AlbertPinto]

None of you have confronted anything like this. Not even in your worst scenarios. The fact is our army has fought and won major wars against an equally well armed and trained adversary. Our IS forces have a slew of tactical successes in COIN ops from J&K to the North East.
...
As an aside and as a message to those in the Western media, anyone who doubts India's proof on Pakistan's involvement and questions India's evidence should remember that they invaded two countries on less of a pretext and the Israelis launch airstrikes against undefended civilian targets anytime one of their civilians gets hit with a stone. India and Indians are sick and tired of self-appointed experts and critics and the supercilious windbags of the Western media and political establishment who sneer at our allegations of Pakistani involvment in terror attacks in India.

By the actions of your so-called experts and the patronizing condescension of your media, you have provided psychological aid and succor to the terrorists who have hurt my people time and time again.

Enough is Enough.

Thanks Sanjay for putting it clearly. There is not a word that I dont agree with

Disclaimer: I do not support any gang violence by any ethnicity, but am interested in the "root causes", that the west's favored ally, Musharraf keeps saying through their own media.

I suspect that this extreme publicity by the western media to Mumbai is to inoculate their population about an impending carnage in their own cities. All western cities have huge pile of arms, sleazy underground mafias that can be made to do false flag operations and an easily scared general public. Add to that, the abundance of socially disadvantaged and pissed off people of color/ethnicity and you really dont need an islamic group to start off such stunts. When I pointed out how MS-13's LA edition started off, Johann has once condescendingly mentioned how MS13 type gangs kill "more latinos than others" and that he travels on both sides of the border of US/Mexico to figure that out. What he forgot to mention is what the latino (or african-american) community elders talk. They are clear on this bullshit of "more <insert a colored race> are killed by the <colored gang> than others" bilge that is fed via the US establishment/media. Let me explain what I heard:

This "they kill you more than they kill us" is a typical gora suggestive campaign, to demoralize these minorities and make them turn against each other. The advantage is that this minority community, in its desperate struggle for survival in gora-territory, will snuff out the violent ones as well as anyone who has decided to says enough is enough in a peaceful way. This is a new version of that good old classic, "divide and rule", aided and abetted by the media. What happens in most western cities is the gora-run establishment will make life hell for an ethnic minority that hurts goras physically or destabilizes their own sweet, idyllic, suburban "Desperate Housewives" ambiance. Such a minority is forced, coerced, socially boycotted and sometimes jailed to submission. Their members are encouraged to rat/snitch on *anyone*, including people who are peacefully protesting injustices. Finally the community is split into dhimmis and rebels. The dhimmis say "let us listen to gora,he is right". The rebels gets pissed, suspect a sellout and starts killing the dhimmis. And the minority community will see an upsurge in cops recruitment, to um, "diversify". Shootouts will be between rebels and these new cops. Gora smiles at this, puts one more feather in his cap and moves on with life. That minority community will see a lot of unwanted violence/deaths because gora cannot tame the rebels to agree to his terms nor do they want to uplift these minorities out of their social disadvantages in a systemic way. Gora finds it a lot more cost-effective to let the minorities kill each other and solve his problems. Good business sense in a way.

Any crimes committed *against* these minorities will not make any headlines, but crimes against goras are bloated beyond belief. Witness the difference in coverage between a no-name Natalie Holloway to a hip-hop legend like Tupac Shakur. This common resentment against "divide and rule" amongst the african-american community was expressed eloquently by Chris Rock during his standup routines. Dave Chapelle is another comedienne who made some really scathing skits based on this angst of African-american community elders.

A minority that challenges the "Desperate Housewives" ambiance with their own music, dressing, social customs or force are made to go through this "they hurt you more than they hurt us" ritual. Look at the initial attempts at suppressing hip-hop culture: denigration of their baggy dresses(a symbolic statement by the hip-hop community about Thrift store wardrobes that they could afford), drug running (ironically, most of the meth labs are run by whites) and apparent laziness to work (from social coercion). A rather amusing spectacle happens when the community still doesnt give up, but instead captures the gora public's imagination: gora establishment goes on overdrive to make money out of the whole "minority-chic". Obama is a shrewd person who actually turned the tables using this minority-chic sentiment, at the same time capturing the gora-public imagination. Quite a sad spectacle to behold for us Indians, who has escaped colonialism of the worst kind.

Where am I going with this? The Mumbai attack will give ideas to a lot of people who are pissed. The west will have a tough time if Bradford, Paris suburbs or the innercities of US decides to stop believing "you are hurting yourselves more than us" and emulate these crazed pakis. The difference is that they dont have to land there in boats with the guns. It is already there in the 2nd amendment and in the Walmarts. So those of them who sneer at the Battle of Mumbai, they are actually wetting their pants. IMO, only France (yes, the surrender monkeys) **might** have the tenacity and grit to fight out a prolonged urban war and yet come out stronger as a nation like India. The rest are not going to have it easy. Based on past performances (right from colonial times), their public are not as discerning as Indians, who know the difference between a "war for profits" and a "war that is thrust on us". Even the humblest voter in India knows the dos and donts. Come elections, sometimes we punish our leaders for the deaths of Indians. And then sometimes we dont, because we know that some things were out of these politicians hands. Bhagavad Geetha 101.

Israelis should realize that they are fast running out of options - their enemy is adapting to smarter techniques (witness the egypt border opening incident) and their allies are shrinking fast. Add to that the fact that their military is being challenged regularly. And sometimes successfully too.

Only Pakistani elites are idiotic enough to support the violent terrorists at a society level and then later on believe "You have to fight them for your own good" words of wisdom of gora. Only they will bitch about predator attacks, get their soldiers killed in their own territory, while still foolishly supporting terrorism. But then they never had a clue about rights and wrong.

Johann, stop trying to convince us that India should turn into a police state like those in the west or a huge barrack like Israel. I know your postings were highly critical of the Pakis, but a lot of us die because of your country and its big brothers' direct and indirect help. Stop trying to turn us against our own Govt by saying "Indians hurt more than others due to other Indians". We are not going to do that. Thanks.

Dear Mr HNair:

You probably couldn't care less, but please know that you've earned my respect for your uprightness. India needs more like you.

Thanks and Regards,
AP

[Anujan]

The weapons used by the pigs. Anyone know what these are ?

[ramana]

There is an Andhra officer in the IPS in Mumbai commissioners office. could be a DGp by now.
Last name kowtha?

[Dhiman]

There are talks of PMO Prithiviraj Chauhan as CM of MAH , Mumbai Police commisioner is Pawar perrogative , who ever he chooses becomes the commisioner of Mumbai

They say if big shots will go now , it will hamper investigation , any way just resigning will not change the system , we need inistitutions and mindset to change

Just resigning won't change anything, but it will send a clear message that BULLSHIT will not be tolerated, so that it sets an example all around.

[ramana]

Mumbai Police Roll of honor

http://www.mumbaipolice.org/

[Murugan]

All fellow Non-Indian BRF-ites and Lurkers:

Keep in mind

This country India and her (Positives and) Negatives cannot be compared with Israel or some european countries on following accounts:

1) Israel is a small country probably of the size of one of the big districts of India
2) If you take out part of russia from Europe, the areas of India is as big as Oirope but unlike your we are one nation with one currency, one national language, one PM, one President, one Election Commision, many ones....
3) Oirope has a Union but still hardly half of the size of India. Oirope with different head of states, different languages, different currencies too
4) Oirope is not surrounded by Hostile Neighbourhood - all the directions
5) Israel has only one kind of population (ethnicity) compared to India's
6) India supports many religions - Semetic or Hemetic - unlike many Oiropean and Middle East nations
7) Your traditions, sensitivities, smartness and geography cannot be comapred with such a myriad types of a great nation like India.
Before you start criticizing india for our torn behind etc - pl first look at your picchhwada=behind. we know you are not what you claim to be but we dont claim we know and critisize you.

Jab Apne Kapde Phate Hue ho, Peechhey ka Sabkuchh dikh raha hai, andar kuchh bhi nahi pahena aur dusro ki maarne ke liye jaate ho wo vaajib nahi hai...

(roughly translates : when you have no proper underwear, your pant is torn and when your arse is exposed, it is not correct to try to screw others)

though, we always welcome your contribution and your feelings. With lots of gratitude.

All the ciriticism is welcome when it is free and free of malicious intents. If you have some malicious intents, check your behind and preach.

Thanx

[R_Kumar]

RR Patil resigns and as per Timesnow, Vilasrao is also under pressure to resign.

I want NSA, head of IB, head of Mumbai Police to be gone too.


Johann, No More, we will not let this Gov. take us for granted.

We can be happy , but it doesn't give any hope. Does it?
We want central government to lay out the plan with time frame about all around reform - i.e state police force, IB, RAW e.tc.
We need a central command for terrorism so that at the critical time government doesn't run like headless chicken.
And of-course bring back pota. For god sake if you want you can rename it to something related to Sonia, but bring it back.

[Johann]

The weapons used by the pigs. Anyone know what these are ?

Lakshmi C,

Those are MP-5s. Are you sure that picture isnt of the NSG's kit? They carry the MP5, and most operators in Mumbai were equipped with it.

All of the images and reports I have seen show the terrorists carrying AKs, probably AK-56s, which are what the jihadis use most commonly.