Indian Response to Terrorism
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
X-Posted from TSP Thread:
One problem, which India has with Pakistan, is the vocabulary and how we deal with them. For starters, we should officially agree to stop acknowledging that there is a Pakistani State next to us. It is a land under control of the Pakistani Establishment.
Zardari is a weak part of that Establishment, and that is exactly how he should be treated. There is no reason to have any further peace dialogue with the puppets from Islamabad, with their various Ministers. They don't represent anything. Their status is similar to that of White House Spokesman. They say what they are asked to, but they don't make policy and they don't implement policy. That is done by the Pakistani Establishment, the main constituents being the Core Commanders, and ISI.
We should simply ignore that Pakistan has a Government, because being a failed state, their Government has no effective say in the matters anyway.
Pakistan has no President, simply a somewhat influential Feudal by the name of Zardari.
Pakistan has no Prime Minister.
Pakistan has no Foreign Minister.
This should become the official state policy of India.
That is the first change, I would like to see!
One problem, which India has with Pakistan, is the vocabulary and how we deal with them. For starters, we should officially agree to stop acknowledging that there is a Pakistani State next to us. It is a land under control of the Pakistani Establishment.
Zardari is a weak part of that Establishment, and that is exactly how he should be treated. There is no reason to have any further peace dialogue with the puppets from Islamabad, with their various Ministers. They don't represent anything. Their status is similar to that of White House Spokesman. They say what they are asked to, but they don't make policy and they don't implement policy. That is done by the Pakistani Establishment, the main constituents being the Core Commanders, and ISI.
We should simply ignore that Pakistan has a Government, because being a failed state, their Government has no effective say in the matters anyway.
Pakistan has no President, simply a somewhat influential Feudal by the name of Zardari.
Pakistan has no Prime Minister.
Pakistan has no Foreign Minister.
This should become the official state policy of India.
That is the first change, I would like to see!
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
In the next war between India and Pakistan, we should however be clear of a few things:
1) It would be a whole-scale takeover of Pakistan by an Army-Mullah combine on the lines of Iran. The Pakistanis would go to war, thinking that the 'secular' Kiyani is in charge, but at the end of it, the Islamists would have taken charge. Why would it be like this? Well for one, at the end of past wars, Pakistan had USA to turn to. At this moment in time, the Pakis are more pissed at the Americans, than at the Indians. So American friendly Generals may not be amenable to the lower ranks in the PA.
2) This could happen regardless of whether the war is a total loss or a draw.
3) India should make some preparations for some eventuality like this, and have some people there in whose hands one could leave the day-to-day governance.
4) India should/could go to war with TSP regardless of these scenarios. The whole TSP is becoming radicalized anyway. So we don't want a silent coup to take place there where one has LeT directly in charge of the nuclear bombs. If this regime change is unavoidable, India should take care of defanging Pakistan beforehand, and to have some guidance over a post-war situation.
1) It would be a whole-scale takeover of Pakistan by an Army-Mullah combine on the lines of Iran. The Pakistanis would go to war, thinking that the 'secular' Kiyani is in charge, but at the end of it, the Islamists would have taken charge. Why would it be like this? Well for one, at the end of past wars, Pakistan had USA to turn to. At this moment in time, the Pakis are more pissed at the Americans, than at the Indians. So American friendly Generals may not be amenable to the lower ranks in the PA.
2) This could happen regardless of whether the war is a total loss or a draw.
3) India should make some preparations for some eventuality like this, and have some people there in whose hands one could leave the day-to-day governance.
4) India should/could go to war with TSP regardless of these scenarios. The whole TSP is becoming radicalized anyway. So we don't want a silent coup to take place there where one has LeT directly in charge of the nuclear bombs. If this regime change is unavoidable, India should take care of defanging Pakistan beforehand, and to have some guidance over a post-war situation.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
MEA summons Pakistan envoy
Pakistan High Commissioner to India Shahid Malik summoned by Ministry of External Affairs in connection with the Mumbai terror attacks, sources told PTI.
India had blamed elements in Pakistan as being responsible for the attacks.
More details soon.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
I would be very interested to see what Johann from his experience and background with an outside perspctive,as we Indians could be accused of being quite understandably subjective,recommends to India,as future course of action,diplomatic,military and internal security measures,considering the fact that Pak/ISI/LET is behind the attacks.The situation is a very complex one,as it has a regional spread,with the on-going war in Afghanistan,where Pak is seen as an "ally" of the US/NATO.Here at Bombay,western citizens belonging to all the NATO nations were targeted alomg with Jews,apart from the hundreds of Indian casualties. My suggestions are at the end.
We know that the govt. of Zardari is quite incapable of reigning in the military/ISI from his track record and volte face over the ISI chief's visit.
We also know that at the moment,the MMSingh govt. is the equivalent of Zardari in Pak,impotent and possessing microscopic military/security understanding,along with his "No Security Adviser",who hasn't the decency to quit after a year of total failure,barring his successful "greasing" of MPs on the Nuclear Deal vote.To expect the MMS regime to react in a "Cold Start" manner,commando fashion like the attackers, will be an exercise in self deception.Revenge is a dish best eaten cold and India will have to prepare for it from now on.Meanwhile,here is Condy Rice's advice to Pak.
Rice urges Pakistan co-operation over Mumbai massacre
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 43221.html
Monday, 1 December 2008
India lashes out at old enemy
Terrorist outlaws – or a group with friends in high places?
The tragic story capturing the Indian public's imagination
Indians demand to know why warnings were ignored
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown: Muslims must confront the truth about Mumbai
Pakistan must co-operate fully in the investigation into last week's terrorist attacks in Mumbai, the US Secretary of State said on a visit to London today.
Condoleezza Rice travelled to the UK this morning for talks with Foreign Secretary David Miliband, and will visit India later this week.
Tension between India and Pakistan has been mounting in the days since the attacks, which left at least 172 people dead, including one British businessman.
A senior Mumbai policeman claimed the Pakistani militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) - seen in some quarters as a creation of the Pakistani intelligence service - was responsible for the attacks.
Islamabad denied any involvement in the Mumbai killings, and said it was prepared to move troops to the Indian border if the diplomatic situation worsened.
"What we are emphasising to the Pakistani government is the need to follow the evidence wherever it leads," Ms Rice said.
"I don't want to jump to any conclusions myself on this, but I do think that this is a time for complete, absolute, total transparency and co-operation and that's what we expect."
Ms Rice said the attacks were of "special interest and concern" to the US as Americans were among those deliberately targeted and killed.
Suggestions:
1.Share the evidence of Pak's complicty and guilt with the two superpowers,leading western nations,especially those nations whose citizens were casualties and Israel.Put maximum pressure upon them to act against Pak's interests,especially those directly responsibble for 26/11.Press for suspension of all military and economic aid to pak.See which countries agree.Those who don't,put them last in future military and other cooperation with India.Especially warn neighbours of harbouring Paki intel operatives and allowing neighbouring territory to be used for attacks against India,which will leave them open to any action from India.A maximum diplomatic effort as Mrs.Gandhi did in '71 to sway world opioion against pak and its military/ISI.Demand Paki military/ISI to stand trial at the Hague.UNSC to be approached for action against pak.This will bring out the Chinese veto,exposing their links to terror in the bargain.Increase intel/military cooperation with Pak's neighbours/enemies (my enemy's enemy is my friend)
2.If Pak does not cooperate with India diplomatically,as Rice has advised,then India should expel the Paki HC and downgrade the High Commission to consular status.Expel all staff who are connected with the Paki military/intel services.Reduce diplomatic level to one step above complete break in ties.
3.Seal the border.Cut off all travel links with Pak.J&K an iron curtain.Ban all Paki aircraft,from transiting through Indian airspace,which will pose a serious problem for them connecting to Bangladesh,ban all Paki vessels from entering Indian waters,cut off all sporting and economic ties.
4.Send teams of the three services to Russia,France,Israel and other current suppliers of military hardware for massive stocks of spares and munitions and extra weapon systems in current inventories to have enough war reserves for a long war.Raise PSU production to war levels,especially missile like Brahmos and N-capable missiles.Acquisitions to be upon a war footing priority as was done during Kargil.We have a alrge forex reserve in hundreds of billions.Buy when prices are down,wholesale.Raise extra manpower for all services and paramilitary forces.
5.Stock up adequate petro products for 12 months including war reserves.The prices are right now extremely low and we must take maximum advantage of iImport/produce as much strategic materials for war/industrial production for one year at least.Stock up as much of foodgrains,etc.,and spread them all round the country.
6.Launch spy/intel sats if possible asap.Immediate priority,beef up anti-missile/ABM capability and long range air surveillance.Rush Phalcon deliveries and other smaller aerostat/AWACS being shortlisted as of now.
7.Increase N-warhead production.Prepare for any sneak nuclear attack from pak,by raising civil defence/medical capabilities (stocking up of medicines,essential supplies) from any NBC attack.Build N-command shelters in every state capital,major military bases.
8.Increase covert military support to the Afghan govt.Help the Afghan army and govt. in fighting the Taliban/Pak through various methods.Keep up economic /infrastructural help.Along with Russia,evolve close cooperation with former Northern Alliance anti-Taliban foces and send dipomatic/military missions to the neighbours of Afdghanistan to evolve a joint strategy to defeat Pak's gameplan.
9.Raise by a suitable level defence preparedness to counter any future attack with an immediate military response if need be.Immdiate beefing up of maritime security,coastal surveillance,island territories. IN/CG/Coastal defence police/ customs forces needs especially looked after.
10.Start civil defence exercises in all Indian metros and major cities in preparation for future terror attacks/war with Pak.
11.All major hotels to have airport screening methods in place,dogs,etc.,plus clear identity checks on all guests.
12.Prepare for large scale covert war against Pak.Targets to cripple Pak's war capabilities and attacks especially against key individuals in Pak who are responsible for terror against India.Begin assisting independent separatist movements in pak with training,arms and material.Special teams to operate internationally in India's interests against Paki targets,both of Indian and foreign origin.Employ "Contractors" if need be.
In short,raise defence preparedness to just below highest level,preparing for any further paki misadventures and lobby the international community with maximum diplomatic effort to label Pak a "rogue state",with cessation of all military and economic assistance.Reward states doing so with favoured nation ststus in military and economic matters.Deny such access to those who continue to support Pak and refuse to coperate with India.We are the secomndlargest country in the world.It is time we stood up and showed our strength of will and capability ,not act like meek mice.Prepare for the long haul.Within the country,put the armed forces immediately in charge of all state anti-terror security,with local police forces under central control for anti-terror operations.No need for hours of waiting for a secretary/babu to sign to allow the use of Marcos commandos waiting to go into action as we disgracefully saw on 26/11.Setting up the central anti-terror homeland authority/agency will neccessarily take time.In the interim use emergency/war powers.Get signed blank sheets from Pratibha Patil and every babu of importance for instant war use by the PM/cabinet.Replace the entire heads of intel agencies who failed to deliver and first fire the NSA.We can't wait for a new govt. after the elections to replace such a clown to remain in office,the risk is too great.In fact,he might try and destroy all record of his gross negligence in the catastrophic fiasco we've just seen.
We know that the govt. of Zardari is quite incapable of reigning in the military/ISI from his track record and volte face over the ISI chief's visit.
We also know that at the moment,the MMSingh govt. is the equivalent of Zardari in Pak,impotent and possessing microscopic military/security understanding,along with his "No Security Adviser",who hasn't the decency to quit after a year of total failure,barring his successful "greasing" of MPs on the Nuclear Deal vote.To expect the MMS regime to react in a "Cold Start" manner,commando fashion like the attackers, will be an exercise in self deception.Revenge is a dish best eaten cold and India will have to prepare for it from now on.Meanwhile,here is Condy Rice's advice to Pak.
Rice urges Pakistan co-operation over Mumbai massacre
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 43221.html
Monday, 1 December 2008
India lashes out at old enemy
Terrorist outlaws – or a group with friends in high places?
The tragic story capturing the Indian public's imagination
Indians demand to know why warnings were ignored
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown: Muslims must confront the truth about Mumbai
Pakistan must co-operate fully in the investigation into last week's terrorist attacks in Mumbai, the US Secretary of State said on a visit to London today.
Condoleezza Rice travelled to the UK this morning for talks with Foreign Secretary David Miliband, and will visit India later this week.
Tension between India and Pakistan has been mounting in the days since the attacks, which left at least 172 people dead, including one British businessman.
A senior Mumbai policeman claimed the Pakistani militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) - seen in some quarters as a creation of the Pakistani intelligence service - was responsible for the attacks.
Islamabad denied any involvement in the Mumbai killings, and said it was prepared to move troops to the Indian border if the diplomatic situation worsened.
"What we are emphasising to the Pakistani government is the need to follow the evidence wherever it leads," Ms Rice said.
"I don't want to jump to any conclusions myself on this, but I do think that this is a time for complete, absolute, total transparency and co-operation and that's what we expect."
Ms Rice said the attacks were of "special interest and concern" to the US as Americans were among those deliberately targeted and killed.
Suggestions:
1.Share the evidence of Pak's complicty and guilt with the two superpowers,leading western nations,especially those nations whose citizens were casualties and Israel.Put maximum pressure upon them to act against Pak's interests,especially those directly responsibble for 26/11.Press for suspension of all military and economic aid to pak.See which countries agree.Those who don't,put them last in future military and other cooperation with India.Especially warn neighbours of harbouring Paki intel operatives and allowing neighbouring territory to be used for attacks against India,which will leave them open to any action from India.A maximum diplomatic effort as Mrs.Gandhi did in '71 to sway world opioion against pak and its military/ISI.Demand Paki military/ISI to stand trial at the Hague.UNSC to be approached for action against pak.This will bring out the Chinese veto,exposing their links to terror in the bargain.Increase intel/military cooperation with Pak's neighbours/enemies (my enemy's enemy is my friend)
2.If Pak does not cooperate with India diplomatically,as Rice has advised,then India should expel the Paki HC and downgrade the High Commission to consular status.Expel all staff who are connected with the Paki military/intel services.Reduce diplomatic level to one step above complete break in ties.
3.Seal the border.Cut off all travel links with Pak.J&K an iron curtain.Ban all Paki aircraft,from transiting through Indian airspace,which will pose a serious problem for them connecting to Bangladesh,ban all Paki vessels from entering Indian waters,cut off all sporting and economic ties.
4.Send teams of the three services to Russia,France,Israel and other current suppliers of military hardware for massive stocks of spares and munitions and extra weapon systems in current inventories to have enough war reserves for a long war.Raise PSU production to war levels,especially missile like Brahmos and N-capable missiles.Acquisitions to be upon a war footing priority as was done during Kargil.We have a alrge forex reserve in hundreds of billions.Buy when prices are down,wholesale.Raise extra manpower for all services and paramilitary forces.
5.Stock up adequate petro products for 12 months including war reserves.The prices are right now extremely low and we must take maximum advantage of iImport/produce as much strategic materials for war/industrial production for one year at least.Stock up as much of foodgrains,etc.,and spread them all round the country.
6.Launch spy/intel sats if possible asap.Immediate priority,beef up anti-missile/ABM capability and long range air surveillance.Rush Phalcon deliveries and other smaller aerostat/AWACS being shortlisted as of now.
7.Increase N-warhead production.Prepare for any sneak nuclear attack from pak,by raising civil defence/medical capabilities (stocking up of medicines,essential supplies) from any NBC attack.Build N-command shelters in every state capital,major military bases.
8.Increase covert military support to the Afghan govt.Help the Afghan army and govt. in fighting the Taliban/Pak through various methods.Keep up economic /infrastructural help.Along with Russia,evolve close cooperation with former Northern Alliance anti-Taliban foces and send dipomatic/military missions to the neighbours of Afdghanistan to evolve a joint strategy to defeat Pak's gameplan.
9.Raise by a suitable level defence preparedness to counter any future attack with an immediate military response if need be.Immdiate beefing up of maritime security,coastal surveillance,island territories. IN/CG/Coastal defence police/ customs forces needs especially looked after.
10.Start civil defence exercises in all Indian metros and major cities in preparation for future terror attacks/war with Pak.
11.All major hotels to have airport screening methods in place,dogs,etc.,plus clear identity checks on all guests.
12.Prepare for large scale covert war against Pak.Targets to cripple Pak's war capabilities and attacks especially against key individuals in Pak who are responsible for terror against India.Begin assisting independent separatist movements in pak with training,arms and material.Special teams to operate internationally in India's interests against Paki targets,both of Indian and foreign origin.Employ "Contractors" if need be.
In short,raise defence preparedness to just below highest level,preparing for any further paki misadventures and lobby the international community with maximum diplomatic effort to label Pak a "rogue state",with cessation of all military and economic assistance.Reward states doing so with favoured nation ststus in military and economic matters.Deny such access to those who continue to support Pak and refuse to coperate with India.We are the secomndlargest country in the world.It is time we stood up and showed our strength of will and capability ,not act like meek mice.Prepare for the long haul.Within the country,put the armed forces immediately in charge of all state anti-terror security,with local police forces under central control for anti-terror operations.No need for hours of waiting for a secretary/babu to sign to allow the use of Marcos commandos waiting to go into action as we disgracefully saw on 26/11.Setting up the central anti-terror homeland authority/agency will neccessarily take time.In the interim use emergency/war powers.Get signed blank sheets from Pratibha Patil and every babu of importance for instant war use by the PM/cabinet.Replace the entire heads of intel agencies who failed to deliver and first fire the NSA.We can't wait for a new govt. after the elections to replace such a clown to remain in office,the risk is too great.In fact,he might try and destroy all record of his gross negligence in the catastrophic fiasco we've just seen.
Last edited by Philip on 01 Dec 2008 18:54, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
My (Monday morning calm, pre-coffee ) suggestion is to follow the dictum of the movie "Patton"
Use pressure to force the Pakistan Army to die fighting the LeT. INSIDE POK and Pakjab.
For this there needs to be a few actions:
1. Ask Zardari to give the population of Faridkot, POK, 24 hours to clear out. Ask the PA to demolish the town center as first "payback" for the captured pig being from there.
2. Ask Zardari to ask the PA 48 hours to demolish the Muridke complex of LeT
3. Give him 24 hours to arrest Salahuddin and Hafeez Seed for extradition to India.
Inform the US publicly that failure by TSP to observe any of these deadlines will trigger military attacks on PA using all means at our disposal. (well.. that would be "diplomatic demarches" or "summoning Ambassador to tea")
Use pressure to force the Pakistan Army to die fighting the LeT. INSIDE POK and Pakjab.
For this there needs to be a few actions:
1. Ask Zardari to give the population of Faridkot, POK, 24 hours to clear out. Ask the PA to demolish the town center as first "payback" for the captured pig being from there.
2. Ask Zardari to ask the PA 48 hours to demolish the Muridke complex of LeT
3. Give him 24 hours to arrest Salahuddin and Hafeez Seed for extradition to India.
Inform the US publicly that failure by TSP to observe any of these deadlines will trigger military attacks on PA using all means at our disposal. (well.. that would be "diplomatic demarches" or "summoning Ambassador to tea")
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
Narayanan, you were going on a roll, and then cynicism tripped you.narayanan wrote:Inform the US publicly that failure by TSP to observe any of these deadlines will trigger military attacks on PA using all means at our disposal. (well.. that would be "diplomatic demarches" or "summoning Ambassador to tea")

Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
With the impending visit of Condi Rice to India, USA is ramping up the diplomatic offensive to dampen any Indian response that will threaten their interests on the Afghan front.
The USA did this aggressive diplomatic dance with India after the attack on the Parliament.
This time, India should not fall for this aggressively pursue it's own interests. Everyone will fall in line.
As i have posted in the other thread, India's reaction should be the following,
1) Collect all the evidence regarding the planning/sponsoring/execution of this event in Mumbai.
2) Give Pakistan / Bangladesh a 24 hour deadline to furnish the individuals involved.
3) Failing which, India should send special forces to eliminate the top rung of these organizations and their sponsors, wherever they lie and whoever they may be.
4) Give notice to the whole wide world via our actions. No more Whining and Pleading our case to anyone!!!!
5) This is an act of war against India and India should respond accordingly!!!
If Indians cannot stand up for themselves, nobody in the world will.
The USA did this aggressive diplomatic dance with India after the attack on the Parliament.
This time, India should not fall for this aggressively pursue it's own interests. Everyone will fall in line.
As i have posted in the other thread, India's reaction should be the following,
1) Collect all the evidence regarding the planning/sponsoring/execution of this event in Mumbai.
2) Give Pakistan / Bangladesh a 24 hour deadline to furnish the individuals involved.
3) Failing which, India should send special forces to eliminate the top rung of these organizations and their sponsors, wherever they lie and whoever they may be.
4) Give notice to the whole wide world via our actions. No more Whining and Pleading our case to anyone!!!!

5) This is an act of war against India and India should respond accordingly!!!
If Indians cannot stand up for themselves, nobody in the world will.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
i am all for offering chai-biskoot to pak dignitaries, in fact - i am willing to give the ambassador as many hot tea enemas as i can manage to persuade them to take action
that's probably why pasha saa'b declined to come
that's probably why pasha saa'b declined to come
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
paktalibs have given a tv interview shown here today. a smart young guy
in a pashtun hat said pleasantly if the PA and NATO dont stop being smart,
"we will take over Peshawar, Hangu and most of pakistan". a older guy
sitting beside him seemed to be in a drug induced daze. a line of dark lookin lads holding AKs with banana mags at the back.
CNN:
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (CNN) -- A suicide car bomber killed nine civilians in northwest Pakistan Monday, while militants elsewhere in the violence-plagued region attacked trucks that carry supplies to NATO troops in Afghanistan.
Pakistani security officials inspect the site of a suicide attack in Mingora last month.
Pakistani security officials inspect the site of a suicide attack in Mingora last month.
The suicide bombing took place in the town of Mingora in the Swat Valley. The motorist detonated explosives when police tried to stop him from crossing a security checkpoint, said police officer Dilawar Khan.
The blast also wounded 50 others, including 10 who were in critical condition, Khan said.
In the second attack, militants fired rockets at a supply terminal in Peshawar that sits along a route from Pakistan to Afghanistan. The attack left two people dead, two others wounded and 12 trucks ablaze, Peshawar police spokesman Mohammad Rasool said.
Because Afghanistan is landlocked, many supplies for NATO-led troops fighting Islamic militants there have to be trucked in from Pakistan -- and the swath of tribal areas in northwest Pakistan has become a haven for militants who mount regular attacks in both countries, U.S. officials have said.
Don't Miss
* Pakistan warns U.S. over missile strike
* Suspected U.S. drone kills 4 in Pakistan
Pakistan's central government has long exerted little control in the area, but it launched an intense military offensive in late July to flush out militants. As retaliation for the military presence, the Taliban has carried out a series of deadly bombings -- and said the attacks will continue until the troops pull out.
Convoys carrying food and military supplies to U.S. troops in Afghanistan have regularly come under attack.
Last month, Pakistani officials suspended travel through a key mountain pass -- the Khyber Pass -- citing security concerns. They reversed their decision a day later.
The Swat Valley, where the suicide bombing occurred, was once Pakistan's biggest tourist destination.
But in recent months, militants bent on imposing fundamentalist Islamic law have unleashed a wave of violence across the North West Frontier Province, where Swat is located, that has claimed hundreds of lives, many of them security personnel.
in a pashtun hat said pleasantly if the PA and NATO dont stop being smart,
"we will take over Peshawar, Hangu and most of pakistan". a older guy
sitting beside him seemed to be in a drug induced daze. a line of dark lookin lads holding AKs with banana mags at the back.
CNN:
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (CNN) -- A suicide car bomber killed nine civilians in northwest Pakistan Monday, while militants elsewhere in the violence-plagued region attacked trucks that carry supplies to NATO troops in Afghanistan.
Pakistani security officials inspect the site of a suicide attack in Mingora last month.
Pakistani security officials inspect the site of a suicide attack in Mingora last month.
The suicide bombing took place in the town of Mingora in the Swat Valley. The motorist detonated explosives when police tried to stop him from crossing a security checkpoint, said police officer Dilawar Khan.
The blast also wounded 50 others, including 10 who were in critical condition, Khan said.
In the second attack, militants fired rockets at a supply terminal in Peshawar that sits along a route from Pakistan to Afghanistan. The attack left two people dead, two others wounded and 12 trucks ablaze, Peshawar police spokesman Mohammad Rasool said.
Because Afghanistan is landlocked, many supplies for NATO-led troops fighting Islamic militants there have to be trucked in from Pakistan -- and the swath of tribal areas in northwest Pakistan has become a haven for militants who mount regular attacks in both countries, U.S. officials have said.
Don't Miss
* Pakistan warns U.S. over missile strike
* Suspected U.S. drone kills 4 in Pakistan
Pakistan's central government has long exerted little control in the area, but it launched an intense military offensive in late July to flush out militants. As retaliation for the military presence, the Taliban has carried out a series of deadly bombings -- and said the attacks will continue until the troops pull out.
Convoys carrying food and military supplies to U.S. troops in Afghanistan have regularly come under attack.
Last month, Pakistani officials suspended travel through a key mountain pass -- the Khyber Pass -- citing security concerns. They reversed their decision a day later.
The Swat Valley, where the suicide bombing occurred, was once Pakistan's biggest tourist destination.
But in recent months, militants bent on imposing fundamentalist Islamic law have unleashed a wave of violence across the North West Frontier Province, where Swat is located, that has claimed hundreds of lives, many of them security personnel.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
EDITED.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
Even if our senile leadership decides to react strongly we can safely expect them not to begin before thursdays assembly elections in rajasthan. rajputana is a border state after all. there is also the JK polls to be worried about but I'm sure dilli can do a art. 365 on them if needed.
They've begun with a demarche. the home secretary is set to go. We've started to hold the neta-babu axis accountable for things.
Thats some start after so many deaths. jingo log in desh can also seek remedy/revenge from rti. be clear, clever and cunning in drafting the rti application. i know of some applications where babulog played smart.
They've begun with a demarche. the home secretary is set to go. We've started to hold the neta-babu axis accountable for things.
Thats some start after so many deaths. jingo log in desh can also seek remedy/revenge from rti. be clear, clever and cunning in drafting the rti application. i know of some applications where babulog played smart.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
Strange storm brews in South Asia by M K Bhadrakumar: Asia Time Online
The current US thinking leans towards equipping select Pashtun tribes to fight the Taliban and al-Qaeda. It is a controversial move that worries the Pakistani military, as it might ignite violence in the Pashtun regions inside Pakistan and fuel the Pashtunistan demand. Besides, Obama has bluntly warned that he would get the US Special Forces to strike inside the Pakistani territory if the security situation warranted. Such moves will be seen by the Pakistani military as a humiliating slap on its face.
What is more disconcerting for the Pakistani military is the likelihood that Obama's "exit strategy" will emphasize the rapid build-up of a 134,000-strong Afghan national army. This has been a favorite idea of US Defense Secretary Robert Gates and it may largely explain Obama's decision to keep him at his cabinet post.
However, the law of diminishing returns begins to work for the Pakistani military once an Afghan national army gains traction. Indeed, an Afghan army will, most certainly, be led by ethnic Tajik officers. At present, Tajiks constitute over three-quarters of the Afghan army's officer corps. But Tajiks have been entirely out of the pale of Pakistani influence - even during the Afghan jihad in the 1980s. Tajik nationalism challenges Pakistani aspirations to control Afghanistan. Summing up these dilemmas facing the Pakistani military, former Pakistani foreign secretary Najmuddin Sheikh recently pointed out, "It [Obama's Afghan policy] would in fact be the realization of Pakistan's worst security fears."
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
[last rant]
Folks, sincerely hope I am wrong here. But looking at the media management of public anger going on I suspect
Why this begging streak? Can't you (you, because I am not able to join in) do anything yourself ?
No point in getting undies in a twist. Evolution will find a way to resolve this.
[/end of last rant on the subject]
Folks, sincerely hope I am wrong here. But looking at the media management of public anger going on I suspect
- a few politicians will move to different jobs
- every one will make right noises in the media for a week
- lots of foreign politicians will visit
Why this begging streak? Can't you (you, because I am not able to join in) do anything yourself ?
No point in getting undies in a twist. Evolution will find a way to resolve this.
[/end of last rant on the subject]
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
The hottest place in the world by Chan Akya: Asia Times Online
During the recently concluded American elections, vice president-elect Joe Biden made the widely criticized point that president-elect Barack Obama would be tested very soon after ascending to the job. It appears from recent events that his particular prophesy has been fulfilled, and rather earlier than even he had imagined, namely, even before Obama takes on the job of president. It may be no exaggeration to point out that much like September 11, 2001, charted the course of the George W Bush administration, the Mumbai massacre on Thanksgiving 2008 could well chart the course of the Obama presidency.
To any dispassionate observer, it is easy to conclude that Pakistan is now a failed state on the lines of Somalia and Afghanistan where the government writ runs only in limited areas while everywhere else in the country is dominated by warlords.
There are only two courses of action open to the Indian government; firstly to launch a strike against Pakistan-based training camps for Islamic terrorists such as those belonging to the banned Laskhar-e-Taiba and the Jaish Mohammad; this course of action risks opening up a full scale war with Pakistan. The second course of action would for the government to do precisely nothing but to passively sit around awaiting another terrorist attack on the country’s citizens.
While I fear the first course of action, I am well inclined to believe that it is the second course of action that will most likely emerge.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
Philip,
I dont have much that is particularly original to say on the matter.
This one has Pakistani fingerprints all over it. However, at this point I dont know if the Pakistani civilian government has any knowledge of what was going on.
As I said in my initial posts almost two days ago that this is the wedge that should be exploited by India - tell Zardari that he can either take on the ISI and if necessary fire Kayani with Indian and Western support, or find himself squeezed out in a confrontation between India and the Pak military establishment.
I believe Zardari would take the offer because he has few choices. Part of the key would be to make it clear that the alternative will be economically painful, but outline a range of possible punitive measures and keep them guessing about which one India might actually pursue.
EDITED.
I dont have much that is particularly original to say on the matter.
This one has Pakistani fingerprints all over it. However, at this point I dont know if the Pakistani civilian government has any knowledge of what was going on.
As I said in my initial posts almost two days ago that this is the wedge that should be exploited by India - tell Zardari that he can either take on the ISI and if necessary fire Kayani with Indian and Western support, or find himself squeezed out in a confrontation between India and the Pak military establishment.
I believe Zardari would take the offer because he has few choices. Part of the key would be to make it clear that the alternative will be economically painful, but outline a range of possible punitive measures and keep them guessing about which one India might actually pursue.
EDITED.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
India asks for Dawood, Masood Azhar's head
New Delhi: India has asked Pakistan to hand over gangster Dawood Ibrahim and terrorist leader Maulana Masood Azhar for their suspected involvement in the Mumbai terror attack.
My day began (first working day at office after the War in Mumbai bagan), by moi cutting a bimbo down to size. The Indian origin bimbo was bitching how she avoids India pecisely due to terrorist problem....couple of question on Newyork and school shut her up.Sources tell CNN-IBN Shahid Malik, Pakistan’s High Commissioner to India, was summoned to the External Affairs Ministry on Monday and told that ties with his country’s would suffer if India’s demands are not met.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
Mumbai terror attack: Top LeT commander arrested from Punjab
New Delhi, Dec 01: In what appears to be another success to the investigation of Mumbai terror attacks one terrorist, Saeed, allegedly a Lashkar-e-Toiba commander has been arrested in Punjab on Monday. Saeed, 4th in the command of LeT’s hierarchy is said to be the mastermind of Mumbai terror attacks.
Saeed was in touch with the terrorists who broke havoc in the corporate capital of India. It is also believed that terrorists left their GPS on the trawler Kuber to confuse the security and investigating agencies. The arms seized from Saeed are very much similar to those used by the Pakistan Army.
Earlier, one terrorist was arrested from Doda district of J&K.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
Here is our response. Well it is a response of the new king, I hope rest of us Indians are made of better stuff.
Rahul in party mood soon after Mumbai crisis
Mail Today Bureau
New Delhi, December 1, 2008
Comment Print Email A A A Share Facebook! Digg it! Newsvine! Reddit! Del.icio.us! Technorati! StumbleUpon! RSS Feed
CloseIndia Today expert view on Rahul in party mood soon after Mumbai crisisEven before the tears of Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan’s mother could dry up, Congress general secretary and heir apparent Rahul Gandhi went partying with his pals at a farmhouse on Delhi’s outskirts.
The Prince partied hard, till 5 in the morning, on Sunday at the ‘sangeet’ for the forthcoming wedding of Samir Sharma, his childhood friend. They were at a sprawling farmhouse at Radhey Mohan Chowk, the haven of people who lead charmed lives beyond Chhatarpur.
Just a day earlier, his sister Priyanka Vadra had caused a flutter by saying the late Indira Gandhi would have “made us very proud” by the way she would have reacted to the Mumbai terror strikes. Mumbai appeared to be far from her brother’s mind as he boogied at the farmhouse with Samir Sharma, US-based furniture designer son of Captain Satish Sharma, the late Rajiv Gandhi’s flying partner who nursed the First Family’s pocketborough, Rae Bareli, till Sonia Gandhi chose to contest from there in 2004.
The Prince seemed to be completely out of sync with the mood of the nation post-26/11. Since Wednesday night, officials have been cancelling parties they were meant to host and even restaurants called off special events.
Rahul in party mood soon after Mumbai crisis
Mail Today Bureau
New Delhi, December 1, 2008
Comment Print Email A A A Share Facebook! Digg it! Newsvine! Reddit! Del.icio.us! Technorati! StumbleUpon! RSS Feed
CloseIndia Today expert view on Rahul in party mood soon after Mumbai crisisEven before the tears of Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan’s mother could dry up, Congress general secretary and heir apparent Rahul Gandhi went partying with his pals at a farmhouse on Delhi’s outskirts.
The Prince partied hard, till 5 in the morning, on Sunday at the ‘sangeet’ for the forthcoming wedding of Samir Sharma, his childhood friend. They were at a sprawling farmhouse at Radhey Mohan Chowk, the haven of people who lead charmed lives beyond Chhatarpur.
Just a day earlier, his sister Priyanka Vadra had caused a flutter by saying the late Indira Gandhi would have “made us very proud” by the way she would have reacted to the Mumbai terror strikes. Mumbai appeared to be far from her brother’s mind as he boogied at the farmhouse with Samir Sharma, US-based furniture designer son of Captain Satish Sharma, the late Rajiv Gandhi’s flying partner who nursed the First Family’s pocketborough, Rae Bareli, till Sonia Gandhi chose to contest from there in 2004.
The Prince seemed to be completely out of sync with the mood of the nation post-26/11. Since Wednesday night, officials have been cancelling parties they were meant to host and even restaurants called off special events.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
zardari has no leverage to use against the army, he is merely 'dead man grinning' cos he has few other choicesJohann wrote:I believe Zardari would take the offer because he has few choices
what is interesting is, even if one accepts that Al-Q and Pak army are not intertwined - they both gain similarly from a heightening of tensions with India - i.e. their interests STRONGLY coincide
how long is the ultimatum for dawood and afzal?
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
JOhann,Poor Zardari's plea to India NOT to "punish" his govt. if Pak's links with the attacks were proven,indicates his own precarious status.He did an about turn on sending the ISI chief and if he does not kick ass in the Paki military right now,he will soon fall victim to it,either by assassination or be deposed.It is the US which can make the maximum difference to the current situation,by stopping all military and economic aid to Pakistan until and unless the ISI is dismembered,its chief Islamist fundamantalists arrested and handed over for trial,its terror training camps-locations well known by the CIA destroyed,and its nuclear assets "neutralised".So far,the US has treid to play both sides,mollycoddling Pak while it conducts its proxy war against India for crumbs of cooperation in the wests war in Afghanistan against the Taliban,Pak's own creation.
The overwhelming danger is that at this critical time,the hardline Paki military/ISI leadership will secrete some of these nukes as insurance against any US action,handing them over to their terror/Taliban/Al Q partners for use against India and the west.Concerted international action is needed right now,when the opportunity has presented itself,to defang Pakistan,neutralise its nukes and seize the chief masterminds of global Iinternational Islamist terror.All the worst examples of Islamist terror have their roots in pakistan,as has been proved time and time again.The cancer has to be surgically removed once and for all.
Please check out the website for some great pics.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ttack.html
Massacre in Mumbai: Under doctors' care, the gunman who carried out the hospital attack
By David Williams
Last updated at 3:17 PM on 01st December 2008
Comments (35) Add to My Stories Fears five more terrorists on the loose after their toothbrushes are found on attack boat
Zardari: Militants may drag India and Pakistan into war
Third Indian minister offers resignation
Intelligence warning of attacks was 'lost in system'
Terror group threatens new atrocities in Delhi
Defiant Cafe Leopold reopens after horrific attacks
This is the face of the only gunman captured alive in the Mumbai terror attacks.
Azam Amir Kasab has been pictured lying on a bed beside medical equipment in an undisclosed location in the city in this undated photograph released by police today.
Kasab, 21, and an accomplice took part in a lethal killing spree in the busy Chhatrapati Shivagji Terminus rail station and are also believed to have attacked a police vehicle at Cama Hospital, killing anti-terror squad chief Hemant Karkare.
He was captured alive on Wednesday night, after being shot in the hand during a stand-off with security forces.
Azam Amir Kasab during the attacks, and right, pictured in hospital receiving treatment after the atrocity
Under interrogation he is understood to have said the terrorists intended to kill up to 5,000 people, and that he was told to 'kill until his last breath'.
The picture emerged amid fears five more terrorists may be on the loose in Mumbai and could be planning a second wave of attacks.
Police sources were quoted today revealing the hijacked Indian fishing boat used by the gunmen to approach Mumbai had equipment for 15 men on board – suggesting that several gunmen could still be at large.
'Fifteen jackets were found, 15 toothbrushes even,' one police source was quoted as saying in The Times. 'That more men were involved is possible.'
Enlarge
Destroyed: The burned interior of the Taj Mahal Hotel after the terrorists were finally stopped
Haul: Weapons recovered from the terrorists involved in the Taj Mahal hotel siege
The toothbrushes were found as terror group Deccan Mujahideen, which claimed responsibility for the Mumbai attacks, reportedly threatened new attacks in Delhi in an email sent to intelligence sources.
The attack would target Delhi's main international airport and three railway stations. Police are also checking rickshaws after receiving intelligence the three-wheeled vehicles could be used in a bombing campaign.
The fears came as Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari appealed to India not to punish his country for last week's attacks, saying militants could precipitate a regional war.
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MELANIE PHILLIPS: The Mumbai atrocity is a wake-up call for a frighteningly unprepared Britain
'No regrets': Captured terrorist's account of Mumbai massacre reveals plan was to kill 5000
Mr Zardari, whose wife, Benazir Bhutto, was assassinated by Islamist militants last year, warned that provocation by rogue 'non-state actors' posed the danger of a return to war between the nuclear-armed neighbours.
'Even if the militants are linked to Lashkar-e-Taiba, who do you think we are fighting?' asked Mr Zardari in an interview with the Financial Times today.
In total, 188 people, including a British millionaire, died in last week's attacks. Almost 400 were injured.
Analysts say last week's Mumbai assaults by Islamist militants bore the hallmarks of Lashkar-e-Taiba, a Pakistan-based group blamed for attacks in India including a 2001 parliament blast that almost plunged the two countries into a fourth war.
In memory: A candlelight vigil takes place at Leopold Cafe in Mumbai, the scene of one of the Mumbai terrorist attacks
Mourners: Mustafa Ali Asgar Kotari, aged 5, at a candlelight vigil at Cafe Leopold
'We live in troubled times where non-state actors have taken us to war before, whether it is the case of those who perpetrated [the] 9/11 [attacks on the United States] or contributed to the escalation of the situation in Iraq,' said Mr Zardari.
'Now, events in Mumbai tell us that there are ongoing efforts to carry out copycat attacks by militants. We must all stand together to fight out this menace.'
Indian officials have said the 10 attackers who held Mumbai hostage came from Pakistan, a Muslim nation carved out of Hindu-majority India in 1947.
Yesterday India said it had proof linking its nuclear rival Pakistan to the massacre – and warned it would raise security to a 'war level'.
Flashpoint: Pakistan president Ali Zardari has warned militants could push nuclear neighbours Pakistan and India into war
In an effort to ease tension between the two states, The White House said that U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice would travel to India on Wednesday.
Pakistan is already struggling to contain Islamic militants within its borders. Earlier today eight people were killed in a suicide bomb attack in the country, with both Al Qaeda and Taliban militants stepping up their attacks against Pakistani security forces.
Pakistan's position as Afghanistan's neighbour has made it a key flashpoint, with Osama bin Laden fleeing there in the wake of the 9/11 attacks and militants training in camps there before fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Mumbai residents returned to schools and offices today for the first time since the attacks.
Address: Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari speaks via video link to a leadership conference in India just four days before the Mumbai terror attacks
Yesterday candlelight vigils were held in New Delhi and at various spots in Mumbai, with people holding hands, singing songs and holding posters, some in remembrance of victims, others protesting over what they saw as government inaction.
On Sunday it was revealed that intelligence warnings of an Islamic terror attack on Mumbai were 'lost in the system'.
Nine days before terrorists arrived by boat to launch a three day assault on the Indian city, security services received information that it was to be targeted. The intelligence even warned that the strike would come from the sea.
The authorities have acknowledged that a warning was received. Intelligence officials say it was passed to the navy, coastguard and police. But the agencies say it did not reach them.
'It appears to have been lost in the system,' one official said yesterday.
However, intelligence sources said Mumbai authorities were also told in writing of a possible attack, naming the Taj Mahal hotel, which became the scene of shootings, as a target.
Keeping the faith: People gather at a funeral ceremony for those who died in the terrorist attack
While Mumbai grieves, recriminations have also begun. Today Maharashtra state chief minister Vilasrao Deshmukh, a member of the ruling Congress party, said he had offered to resign over the attacks that locked India's financial capital in a three-day siege.
Party leaders will now make a final decision over his resignation which follows those of Indian Home Minister Shivraj Patil and national security adviser MK Narayanan.
Yesterday Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's announced a wide-ranging overhaul of the nation's counter-terrorism capabilities.
Yesterday candles, flowers and pictures were also strewn at the bullet-scarred Cafe Leopold and at the barricades in front of the Taj and Trident hotels, where the gunmen holed themselves up during a 60-hour siege.
The cafe, where seven people were killed, reopened today. 'I want them [the attackers] to feel we have won, they have lost,' said manager Farzad Jehani.
More vigils and remembrances were planned in the city, with messages going out as mass texts, e-mails and Facebook messages.
Hundreds of demonstrators also marched past the shell of the Taj hotel demanding explanations.
There is anger at the intelligence failure, and at the delayed response to the assaults on two of the best known luxury hotels and other landmarks in India's financial capital.
Carnage: The bullet-scarred interior of Nariman House, the Mumbai headquarters of Jewish ultra-Orthodox movement the Lubavitch
Newspapers condemned politicians for failing to prevent the attacks. The Sunday Times declared: 'Our Politicians Fiddle As Innocents Die.'
India has pointed the finger at Pakistan. Most of the attackers are said to be from the outlawed Lashkar-e-Taiba, an extremist Pakistani group based in Kashmir.
It accuses senior elements within Pakistan's intelligence and security body, of supporting Lashkar – and of providing them with training.
The tension raised the prospect of a breakdown of peace efforts going on since 2004. Delhi was reported to be considering whether to suspend air and rail links and to send more troops to the so-called Line of Control in Kashmir.
'We will increase security and strengthen it to a war level like we have never done it before,' said India's minister of state for home affairs. Islamabad demanded evidence of the militants' links to Pakistan. It warned that if tension escalated, it would move troops to the Indian border, from its border with Afghanistan.
Pakistan has denied involvement by state agencies. Indian anti-terror investigators are said to have the satellite telephone used by the militants with details of calls to Pakistan and to Lashkar leaders.
A group calling itself the Deccan Muhijadeen claimed responsibility for the attacks in an email. This too is said to have been traced to Pakistan.
Charred: The Taj Mahal Hotel after the operations to dislodge terrorists ended
Ministers in London and Delhi say no evidence has yet been uncovered to support suggestions of a UK link.
Some of the Britons injured in the attack were flown home yesterday.
And Scotland Yard detectives visited the Taj Mahal hotel to take fingerprints from the dead militants, which will be checked against their records.
Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said the attacks would cause Britain to review its security. 'We need to revise the very important work that we do on protecting our crowded places.
The overwhelming danger is that at this critical time,the hardline Paki military/ISI leadership will secrete some of these nukes as insurance against any US action,handing them over to their terror/Taliban/Al Q partners for use against India and the west.Concerted international action is needed right now,when the opportunity has presented itself,to defang Pakistan,neutralise its nukes and seize the chief masterminds of global Iinternational Islamist terror.All the worst examples of Islamist terror have their roots in pakistan,as has been proved time and time again.The cancer has to be surgically removed once and for all.
Please check out the website for some great pics.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ttack.html
Massacre in Mumbai: Under doctors' care, the gunman who carried out the hospital attack
By David Williams
Last updated at 3:17 PM on 01st December 2008
Comments (35) Add to My Stories Fears five more terrorists on the loose after their toothbrushes are found on attack boat
Zardari: Militants may drag India and Pakistan into war
Third Indian minister offers resignation
Intelligence warning of attacks was 'lost in system'
Terror group threatens new atrocities in Delhi
Defiant Cafe Leopold reopens after horrific attacks
This is the face of the only gunman captured alive in the Mumbai terror attacks.
Azam Amir Kasab has been pictured lying on a bed beside medical equipment in an undisclosed location in the city in this undated photograph released by police today.
Kasab, 21, and an accomplice took part in a lethal killing spree in the busy Chhatrapati Shivagji Terminus rail station and are also believed to have attacked a police vehicle at Cama Hospital, killing anti-terror squad chief Hemant Karkare.
He was captured alive on Wednesday night, after being shot in the hand during a stand-off with security forces.
Azam Amir Kasab during the attacks, and right, pictured in hospital receiving treatment after the atrocity
Under interrogation he is understood to have said the terrorists intended to kill up to 5,000 people, and that he was told to 'kill until his last breath'.
The picture emerged amid fears five more terrorists may be on the loose in Mumbai and could be planning a second wave of attacks.
Police sources were quoted today revealing the hijacked Indian fishing boat used by the gunmen to approach Mumbai had equipment for 15 men on board – suggesting that several gunmen could still be at large.
'Fifteen jackets were found, 15 toothbrushes even,' one police source was quoted as saying in The Times. 'That more men were involved is possible.'
Enlarge
Destroyed: The burned interior of the Taj Mahal Hotel after the terrorists were finally stopped
Haul: Weapons recovered from the terrorists involved in the Taj Mahal hotel siege
The toothbrushes were found as terror group Deccan Mujahideen, which claimed responsibility for the Mumbai attacks, reportedly threatened new attacks in Delhi in an email sent to intelligence sources.
The attack would target Delhi's main international airport and three railway stations. Police are also checking rickshaws after receiving intelligence the three-wheeled vehicles could be used in a bombing campaign.
The fears came as Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari appealed to India not to punish his country for last week's attacks, saying militants could precipitate a regional war.
More...Pictured: Grief of the two-year-old boy trapped in Mumbai Jewish centre as his parents were murdered
Hillary Clinton's first priority to be India as Obama names her as his new Secretary of State
Princess Eugenie stayed in hotel room at centre of Mumabi massacre just days before attack
MELANIE PHILLIPS: The Mumbai atrocity is a wake-up call for a frighteningly unprepared Britain
'No regrets': Captured terrorist's account of Mumbai massacre reveals plan was to kill 5000
Mr Zardari, whose wife, Benazir Bhutto, was assassinated by Islamist militants last year, warned that provocation by rogue 'non-state actors' posed the danger of a return to war between the nuclear-armed neighbours.
'Even if the militants are linked to Lashkar-e-Taiba, who do you think we are fighting?' asked Mr Zardari in an interview with the Financial Times today.
In total, 188 people, including a British millionaire, died in last week's attacks. Almost 400 were injured.
Analysts say last week's Mumbai assaults by Islamist militants bore the hallmarks of Lashkar-e-Taiba, a Pakistan-based group blamed for attacks in India including a 2001 parliament blast that almost plunged the two countries into a fourth war.
In memory: A candlelight vigil takes place at Leopold Cafe in Mumbai, the scene of one of the Mumbai terrorist attacks
Mourners: Mustafa Ali Asgar Kotari, aged 5, at a candlelight vigil at Cafe Leopold
'We live in troubled times where non-state actors have taken us to war before, whether it is the case of those who perpetrated [the] 9/11 [attacks on the United States] or contributed to the escalation of the situation in Iraq,' said Mr Zardari.
'Now, events in Mumbai tell us that there are ongoing efforts to carry out copycat attacks by militants. We must all stand together to fight out this menace.'
Indian officials have said the 10 attackers who held Mumbai hostage came from Pakistan, a Muslim nation carved out of Hindu-majority India in 1947.
Yesterday India said it had proof linking its nuclear rival Pakistan to the massacre – and warned it would raise security to a 'war level'.
Flashpoint: Pakistan president Ali Zardari has warned militants could push nuclear neighbours Pakistan and India into war
In an effort to ease tension between the two states, The White House said that U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice would travel to India on Wednesday.
Pakistan is already struggling to contain Islamic militants within its borders. Earlier today eight people were killed in a suicide bomb attack in the country, with both Al Qaeda and Taliban militants stepping up their attacks against Pakistani security forces.
Pakistan's position as Afghanistan's neighbour has made it a key flashpoint, with Osama bin Laden fleeing there in the wake of the 9/11 attacks and militants training in camps there before fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq.
Mumbai residents returned to schools and offices today for the first time since the attacks.
Address: Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari speaks via video link to a leadership conference in India just four days before the Mumbai terror attacks
Yesterday candlelight vigils were held in New Delhi and at various spots in Mumbai, with people holding hands, singing songs and holding posters, some in remembrance of victims, others protesting over what they saw as government inaction.
On Sunday it was revealed that intelligence warnings of an Islamic terror attack on Mumbai were 'lost in the system'.
Nine days before terrorists arrived by boat to launch a three day assault on the Indian city, security services received information that it was to be targeted. The intelligence even warned that the strike would come from the sea.
The authorities have acknowledged that a warning was received. Intelligence officials say it was passed to the navy, coastguard and police. But the agencies say it did not reach them.
'It appears to have been lost in the system,' one official said yesterday.
However, intelligence sources said Mumbai authorities were also told in writing of a possible attack, naming the Taj Mahal hotel, which became the scene of shootings, as a target.
Keeping the faith: People gather at a funeral ceremony for those who died in the terrorist attack
While Mumbai grieves, recriminations have also begun. Today Maharashtra state chief minister Vilasrao Deshmukh, a member of the ruling Congress party, said he had offered to resign over the attacks that locked India's financial capital in a three-day siege.
Party leaders will now make a final decision over his resignation which follows those of Indian Home Minister Shivraj Patil and national security adviser MK Narayanan.
Yesterday Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's announced a wide-ranging overhaul of the nation's counter-terrorism capabilities.
Yesterday candles, flowers and pictures were also strewn at the bullet-scarred Cafe Leopold and at the barricades in front of the Taj and Trident hotels, where the gunmen holed themselves up during a 60-hour siege.
The cafe, where seven people were killed, reopened today. 'I want them [the attackers] to feel we have won, they have lost,' said manager Farzad Jehani.
More vigils and remembrances were planned in the city, with messages going out as mass texts, e-mails and Facebook messages.
Hundreds of demonstrators also marched past the shell of the Taj hotel demanding explanations.
There is anger at the intelligence failure, and at the delayed response to the assaults on two of the best known luxury hotels and other landmarks in India's financial capital.
Carnage: The bullet-scarred interior of Nariman House, the Mumbai headquarters of Jewish ultra-Orthodox movement the Lubavitch
Newspapers condemned politicians for failing to prevent the attacks. The Sunday Times declared: 'Our Politicians Fiddle As Innocents Die.'
India has pointed the finger at Pakistan. Most of the attackers are said to be from the outlawed Lashkar-e-Taiba, an extremist Pakistani group based in Kashmir.
It accuses senior elements within Pakistan's intelligence and security body, of supporting Lashkar – and of providing them with training.
The tension raised the prospect of a breakdown of peace efforts going on since 2004. Delhi was reported to be considering whether to suspend air and rail links and to send more troops to the so-called Line of Control in Kashmir.
'We will increase security and strengthen it to a war level like we have never done it before,' said India's minister of state for home affairs. Islamabad demanded evidence of the militants' links to Pakistan. It warned that if tension escalated, it would move troops to the Indian border, from its border with Afghanistan.
Pakistan has denied involvement by state agencies. Indian anti-terror investigators are said to have the satellite telephone used by the militants with details of calls to Pakistan and to Lashkar leaders.
A group calling itself the Deccan Muhijadeen claimed responsibility for the attacks in an email. This too is said to have been traced to Pakistan.
Charred: The Taj Mahal Hotel after the operations to dislodge terrorists ended
Ministers in London and Delhi say no evidence has yet been uncovered to support suggestions of a UK link.
Some of the Britons injured in the attack were flown home yesterday.
And Scotland Yard detectives visited the Taj Mahal hotel to take fingerprints from the dead militants, which will be checked against their records.
Home Secretary Jacqui Smith said the attacks would cause Britain to review its security. 'We need to revise the very important work that we do on protecting our crowded places.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
India's response to terrorism
But for slain major, not even a dog will visit his house
'If it had not been (Major) Sandeep's house, not even a dog would have glanced that way.'
This was how Kerala [Images] Chief Minister V S Achuthanandan heaped scorn on Monday on the family of NSG Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan, who was killed in the Mumbai terror attack during commando operations, igniting a controversy after smarting under the snub from the father of the angry officer when he went to Bangalore to offer his condolences.
If we are expecting our ruling class to give a response that will act as a deterrent to Pakistan we are all on dope. Like it not, the Pakis have won.
But for slain major, not even a dog will visit his house
'If it had not been (Major) Sandeep's house, not even a dog would have glanced that way.'



This was how Kerala [Images] Chief Minister V S Achuthanandan heaped scorn on Monday on the family of NSG Major Sandeep Unnikrishnan, who was killed in the Mumbai terror attack during commando operations, igniting a controversy after smarting under the snub from the father of the angry officer when he went to Bangalore to offer his condolences.
If we are expecting our ruling class to give a response that will act as a deterrent to Pakistan we are all on dope. Like it not, the Pakis have won.
Last edited by vishal on 01 Dec 2008 20:46, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
All,
The earth shattering thing that has happened since the tragic events is that Congress members find it a little uncomfortable in their current seating arrangements. They have switched chairs and things look a little better now.
GoI , with immense courage, has summoned the TSP ambassador. IA is planning a ParamVir Chakra for this!
------------
There is no evidence to suggest that India is planning to strike pakistan.
The earth shattering thing that has happened since the tragic events is that Congress members find it a little uncomfortable in their current seating arrangements. They have switched chairs and things look a little better now.
GoI , with immense courage, has summoned the TSP ambassador. IA is planning a ParamVir Chakra for this!
------------
There is no evidence to suggest that India is planning to strike pakistan.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
but without the 1st airborne swooping on I'bad to back up Zardari in street muscle, how is he going to act against the ISI or Kiyani even if he were inclined to take that risk?
what kind of muscle does he have? I think he would be halal'ed within 24 hrs if the PA deftly leaves some security hole and sets its assassins on his case.
the pakpolice may support him, but severly outmatched by the PA, ISI
and the dark armies allied with these two.
what kind of muscle does he have? I think he would be halal'ed within 24 hrs if the PA deftly leaves some security hole and sets its assassins on his case.
the pakpolice may support him, but severly outmatched by the PA, ISI
and the dark armies allied with these two.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
Phillip:
To call these attacks a "catastrophic fiasco" is being a bit extreme, IMHO. The ability to cause random death and destruction is always in the hands of the crazies, be it Pakis or high school students.
To call it a "catastrophic fiasco" as the rescuers are being cremated, is highly insensitive.
As in all terrorist attacks, if we don't come out showing fear and pointing fingers at each other, the terrorists and their puppeteers have lost again. And you only have to look at the reaction of Mumbaikars to realise that the "catastrophic fiasco" is yet again, at Pakistani Army HQ. Please reconsider your posts. Thx.
To call these attacks a "catastrophic fiasco" is being a bit extreme, IMHO. The ability to cause random death and destruction is always in the hands of the crazies, be it Pakis or high school students.
To call it a "catastrophic fiasco" as the rescuers are being cremated, is highly insensitive.
As in all terrorist attacks, if we don't come out showing fear and pointing fingers at each other, the terrorists and their puppeteers have lost again. And you only have to look at the reaction of Mumbaikars to realise that the "catastrophic fiasco" is yet again, at Pakistani Army HQ. Please reconsider your posts. Thx.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
By the way, to Respond to Terrorism and its chamchas in the US: Please commend Ambassador Ginsberg on his brilliant anal-e-sis in the appropriate manner:
I was put up to this!
The precise email that suggested that I post this said:
BTW, in the US it is highly complimentary to call someone a "Punk". Beats being called an Idiot.
I was put up to this!

BTW, in the US it is highly complimentary to call someone a "Punk". Beats being called an Idiot.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
India Is Pointing in the Right Direction
Mumbai a terror zone, and India bitterly points its finger at Pakistan. The unloved neighbor needs all the help the West can offer. Pakistan is nearly a failed state -- and a US invasion under President Obama can't be ruled out.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
Lalmohan, Philip
I made the same two observations in my post 2 days back.
Zardari will take the poisoned chalice if India pushes him too, and as I said then, watch for a serious assassination attempt.
Singha,
Zardari has a few potentially decisive levers
- information
- public legitimacy
- the US leverage on the Pakistani military
This is a golden opportunity to make Zardari an Indian intelligence asset. There is no better way to put a head of state on your side than becoming indispensible to his survival. India should make it a priority for intelligence collection from Pakistan (which in the technical arena is quite substantial) to track any and all coup or assassination planning, and convey as much to Zardari, and pass on anything he needs to know.
You would be amazed at how often this sort of thing happens out there - for example Mahmud Abbas depends on security partnership with the Israelis to survive not only Hamas, but machinations from the militant side of his own party, Fatah. Zaradari and Gila Monster (I like that one BTW) can be encouraged to enter in to a relationship of mutual dependence. That alone would be a major coup, but one that would be difficult to crow about too publicly - it would however set the stage for a long shadow battle within Pakistan.
Secondly, if the Americans were to warn in no uncertain terms that any action against Zardari *or* suspension of operations in FATA would lead to a severe breach in the military relationship, and a delay in IMF payments that would certainly caution the PA establishment, and bring pressure to bear from the business community, it would serve as a serious deterrent.
Thirdly, Zardari can still put tens of thousands of people on the streets in the way that Nawaz couldnt in 1999 because of the stench surrounding his government - but organising street rallies takes time, and thats where advance warnings to Zardari of coup moves would pay off.
I made the same two observations in my post 2 days back.
Zardari will take the poisoned chalice if India pushes him too, and as I said then, watch for a serious assassination attempt.
Singha,
Zardari has a few potentially decisive levers
- information
- public legitimacy
- the US leverage on the Pakistani military
This is a golden opportunity to make Zardari an Indian intelligence asset. There is no better way to put a head of state on your side than becoming indispensible to his survival. India should make it a priority for intelligence collection from Pakistan (which in the technical arena is quite substantial) to track any and all coup or assassination planning, and convey as much to Zardari, and pass on anything he needs to know.
You would be amazed at how often this sort of thing happens out there - for example Mahmud Abbas depends on security partnership with the Israelis to survive not only Hamas, but machinations from the militant side of his own party, Fatah. Zaradari and Gila Monster (I like that one BTW) can be encouraged to enter in to a relationship of mutual dependence. That alone would be a major coup, but one that would be difficult to crow about too publicly - it would however set the stage for a long shadow battle within Pakistan.
Secondly, if the Americans were to warn in no uncertain terms that any action against Zardari *or* suspension of operations in FATA would lead to a severe breach in the military relationship, and a delay in IMF payments that would certainly caution the PA establishment, and bring pressure to bear from the business community, it would serve as a serious deterrent.
Thirdly, Zardari can still put tens of thousands of people on the streets in the way that Nawaz couldnt in 1999 because of the stench surrounding his government - but organising street rallies takes time, and thats where advance warnings to Zardari of coup moves would pay off.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
Johann, this is a standard line Pakistani governments have been taking of late, namely that the Government and the nation of Pakistan, cannot be held responsible for the actions of individuals. This doesn't wash. The world, and especially India, cannot remain fooled by such plattitudes. On the one hand, they cannot wash away their responsibility while blithely allowing these non-state actors to continue with their terror camps, jihadi meetings, fund raising, recruitments, running newspapers and journals sprouting extreme views and running annual congregations where jihadi literature are openly distributed and fiery jihadi speeches are given attended by top ranking functionaries of the Government and political parties. Every time proof is given, it gets dumped as not being enough. The Government of Pakistan engaged Hafeez Sayeed of LeT to mediate with the Ghazi of Lal Masjid. If a government fails to act to prevent repeated acts of terror on a neighbouring country, especially when its Army, its intelligence agencies and political leaders for years have been associated with these very same terrorist tanzeems, that government cannot seek refuge under the cloak of 'only non-state actors being responsible for terror'. That government is equally responsible on account of inaction tantamount to acquiescing in the very act of terror. Islam may allow 'lying for a good cause' as Gen. Zia claimed but as non-Mulims we don't believe in that.Johann wrote:This one has Pakistani fingerprints all over it. However, at this point I dont know if the Pakistani civilian government has any knowledge of what was going on.
Johann, I do not know how Zardari can do that. Rawalpindi-based 111 Brigade will eliminate him before he can think of taking on the Army. The PA is still not emaciated enough to come under civilian control in Pakistan. So long as the US has a need for PA, it will rule the roost in Pakistan. The economic punishment is a tool that can pay dividends but for that to happen, key nations should cooperate and the US should be willing to forsake Pakistan, a prospect that does not appear likely in current circumstances.As I said in my initial posts almost two days ago that this is the wedge that should be exploited by India - tell Zardari that he can either take on the ISI and if necessary fire Kayani with Indian and Western support, or find himself squeezed out in a confrontation between India and the Pak military establishment.
I believe Zardari would take the offer because he has few choices.
PS: I see what you have said in the previous post. It needs American support and the moot point is if it will do that.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
Gentlemen, please don't get into the political trap. Kargil happened while ABV was vacationing in Lahore. Then the Parliament attack and the attack on the Indian Army camp was not responded to by the BJP. This is the time for the INC and the BJP to come together instead of pointing each other's mistakes. And it is for the people to DEMAND from the leadership retribution for this and such other attacks. Pakistan's ability to raise a finger against innocent people must be eliminated.Philip wrote:Govt knew about the threat, did nothing: Arun Shourie
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/govt-knew-ab ... -3-p2.html
Arun Shourie / IBNLive Specials
DRIVING THE POINT HOME: Govt has failed to combat terror, Indian Express Editor-in-Chief Arun Shourie writes.
Elections should be cancelled. Instead Indians should demand that Narendra Modi be made the person in charge of the response to this attack. MMS should be re-assigned the finance portfolio. Internal and external security should be handled by a committee comprising the three chiefs reporting to Mr. Modi.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
And there should be none. India's response must be sudden and complete.Neela wrote: There is no evidence to suggest that India is planning to strike pakistan.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
THink that our agencies have followed this with the Hurri-rats for some time...so,shouldn't be very tough to play the game.You would be amazed at how often this sort of thing happens out there - for example Mahmud Abbas depends on security partnership with the Israelis to survive not only Hamas, but machinations from the militant side of his own party, Fatah.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
Govt shies away from blaming Pak
Pioneer.com
PNS | New Delhi
The Government on Sunday developed cold feet in taking on Pakistan for the worst-ever terror strike on the country by refusing to link Islamabad with the Mumbai attack.
An all-party resolution on terrorism talked about plugging the loopholes in internal security and intelligence gathering but remained silent on Pakistan’s involvement. The BJP and Left, as well as the National Conference, called for a tough stand against Pakistan at the meeting chaired by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh.
While the BJP pressed for naming Pakistan in the resolution, the Left wanted the Government to built international pressure on Islamabad by producing the evidence against it before the United Nations Security Council. NC leader Farooq Abdullah wanted a ‘tit-for-tat’ policy towards Pakistan, but found little support from the UPA allies.
The UPA Government’s refusal to link Pakistan with the terror attacks is baffling because External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee has already gone on record blaming ‘elements’ within Pakistan for the Mumbai attack and even the Prime Minister conveyed similar views to his Pakistan counterpart Yousuf Raza Gilani. Pakistan on Saturday snubbed Manmohan Singh by going back on its commitment to send the ISI chief to receive evidence about that country’s involvement in the terror attack.
The meeting failed to reach any consensus on a tough anti-terror law, with the BJP sticking to its demand for revival of POTA and the Government ready to only strengthen the existing legal framework to deal with terrorism.
Consensus also eluded the Government's move to set up a Federal Investigation Agency (FIA) to deal with terror investigations.
After a five-hour-long discussion, the Prime Minister said the nation stood united to fight terrorism and legal framework would be strengthened in this regard. "We will pursue the setting up of a Federal Investigating Agency within a time-frame," he said in his concluding remarks, promising the parties that the Government would get back to them within a fortnight.
When the BJP and AIADMK insisted on stringent laws like POTA to tackle terrorism, new Home Minister P Chidambaram said the Prime Minister had already referred to strengthening the legal framework. The Left parties opposed any "draconian" measures like POTA but were open to suggestions for strengthening provisions in the existing laws to combat terror.
The Government also came under attack from ally Samajwadi Party, whose chief Mulayam Singh Yadav said the ruling dispensation was weak and must own up responsibility. "Come out with something concrete within 15 days," Yadav told the Government.
In his opening remarks, the Prime Minister said the Government had decided to strengthen air and maritime security and create four NSG hubs in various parts of the country. Strengthening and augmentation of special counter-terrorism forces like the NSG would be done expeditiously and a legal framework would be formulated, he said. Sharing the country's "anger and outrage" over the Mumbai attacks, he appealed to the parties to rise above political considerations to meet the challenge unitedly.
Briefing newspersons after the meeting, Mukherjee said political parties unequivocally condemned the dastardly terrorist attack and expressed heartfelt sorrow and condolences to the innocent victims and paid homage to the brave security forces.
On the various measures to be taken by the Government, he said the scourge of terrorism would be fought with total determination and all means and measures to fight this menace would be made available.
Intelligence agencies would be tasked to provide specific pinpointed and actionable intelligence and creation of a new mechanism for establishing greater coordination among agencies of the Centre and states.
CPI leader AB Bardhan cautioned the Government against any "military misadventure" against Pakistan. The parties felt that the Government in Islamabad was weak but Indian action should not lead to strengthening of fundamentalist forces like the Taliban.
RJD chief Lalu Prasad made a veiled attack on the BJP for targeting ATS chief Hemant Karkare, who was killed while fighting terrorists, in connection with the Malegaon blast investigation. In its turn, the BJP blamed the UPA's obsession with "Hindu terrorism" as one of the reasons for the ATS' failure to prevent the Mumbai attack.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
The difference between the govts is POTAVivek K wrote:Gentlemen, please don't get into the political trap. Kargil happened while ABV was vacationing in Lahore. Then the Parliament attack and the attack on the Indian Army camp was not responded to by the BJP. This is the time for the INC and the BJP to come together instead of pointing each other's mistakes. And it is for the people to DEMAND from the leadership retribution for this and such other attacks. Pakistan's ability to raise a finger against innocent people must be eliminated.Philip wrote:Govt knew about the threat, did nothing: Arun Shourie
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/govt-knew-ab ... -3-p2.html
Arun Shourie / IBNLive Specials
DRIVING THE POINT HOME: Govt has failed to combat terror, Indian Express Editor-in-Chief Arun Shourie writes.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
And that would be the panacea for all that ails us? If this attack was carried out by Pakistanis from Pakistan, what could POTA have done?Acharya wrote: The difference between the govts is POTA
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
Ujjal wrote:India Is Pointing in the Right Direction
Mumbai a terror zone, and India bitterly points its finger at Pakistan. The unloved neighbor needs all the help the West can offer. Pakistan is nearly a failed state -- and a US invasion under President Obama can't be ruled out.
India's foreign minister has blamed "elements with links to Pakistan" for the terror attacks. A couple of years ago it would have called them "Pakastani elements." In the Great Game against terror in the subcontinent, this is a difference as small as it is important -- and given the depressing outlook for the region, one is thankful for any nuance that offers a glimmer of hope.
Maybe now the regimes can agree to a marriage of convenience. They, do, after all, have the same enemies.
Last edited by svinayak on 01 Dec 2008 23:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
Effectively meaning, let pakistan off the hook once again. Why?Johann wrote: This is a golden opportunity to make Zardari an Indian intelligence asset. There is no better way to put a head of state on your side than becoming indispensible to his survival.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
LATimes is on a roll.. at at the time of India's 911.
Muslims, India's new untouchables
This is after Nuss'bum yesterday.
A cloud over India's muslims
Please send the love.. to editors of LAT..
[email protected],
[email protected],
[email protected]
Muslims, India's new untouchables
This is after Nuss'bum yesterday.
A cloud over India's muslims
Please send the love.. to editors of LAT..
[email protected],
[email protected],
[email protected]
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
Am i missing something here??? I haven't heard a peep from the honorable Defense Minister A.K Anthony?
Pls. correct me if i am wrong....
Pls. correct me if i am wrong....
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
He's busy dreaming of being back in the Kerala CM post --- now that the present joker has shot himself in the foot regarding his comments on Major SandeepAm i missing something here??? I haven't heard a peep from the honorable Defense Minister A.K Anthony?
Pls. correct me if i am wrong
http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/dec/01m ... -house.htm
Last edited by Nesoj on 01 Dec 2008 22:47, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Indian Response to Terrorism
No, it would mean co-opting sections of the Pakistani establishment against the PA, part of the slow process of turning Pakistan in to a client state.pradeepe wrote:Effectively meaning, let pakistan off the hook once again. Why?Johann wrote: This is a golden opportunity to make Zardari an Indian intelligence asset. There is no better way to put a head of state on your side than becoming indispensible to his survival.
If Zardari begins to depend on intelligence from India for survival, and that intelligence helps keep him alive and in power - he will be obliged to deliver certain things if he wants to keep things that way.
Think about how the Americans since 2001 have gradually co-opted the Pakistani state to turn on itself in certain key areas, particularly when it comes to transnational jihadis, and nuclear security. It isnt total control - but it is a cumulative effect over months and years of advancing your core objectives.
The Americans would prefer to have a shifty, unreliable terrorist supporting 'ally' in Iran they could monitor and influence from within, over the current confrontational terrorist supporting Iran which is relatively isolated and difficult to deter from terrorism in Lebanon, Palestine and Iraq. Its not a great choice, but it does offer significant advantages.
Force is a means to the end. One of India's consistant objectives has been to weaken the PA because of the PA's institutionally hostile mindset.
Even India's most succesful war against Pakistan, 1971, only temporarily reduced PA power, but even in that window India failed to establish any sort of hold on ZA Bhutto.
Partnering with a powerful section of the Pakistani political establishment against the PA will do far more for the major objectives Indian security than demolishing buildings, or destroying bunkers, or sinking a few ships, or even delivering retribution to a few ISI decisionmakers etc.
It does not mean foregoing those punitive measures - India has to demonstrate its serious in order to coerce Zardari and company. It does not mean giving up on Pakistan's captive peoples. It just means focussing on the ends and not just the means.
Again, from the Israeli example, lasting gains have come from co-opting Arab state and movement leaderships. The threat of force with a few demonstrations is a means to that end, not the end in itself - that is what Israel periodically has to remind itself when it becomes too focussed on the means of retribution. There are windows that open, and windows that are chiseled open afte years of tapping away. There is an opportunity here.