Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Sadler · Post by **Sadler** » 01 Dec 2008 20:55

My condolences to the indian victims of this latest islamic atrocity.
Shalom.

SandeepA · Post by **SandeepA** » 01 Dec 2008 20:57

I havent seen Arnab's reporting on Times Now but we needed atleast one channel like this if some paki trolls can get so worked up about him! More power to Arnab!
If he is trying to grab the right of center space and IF its wrong, then its the fault of the rest of the English media to have left the space empty all these years.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Dec 2008 20:57

or some kind of hardcore Cong(I) groupie.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 01 Dec 2008 20:58

Admin,
Can we take care of vkthakur please. Please ban him.

{No, absolutely not. fanne. VThakur is welcome here to post things that may cause you and me to think hard how to counter his logic and facts. We don't have to agree with him. Read Tanaji's post below as an example.

Incidentally, if you can't have a clear answer to Vthakur's proposition, you cannot be effective in arguing about any response that India should undertake to end this terrorist scourge.}

P.S. There are too many people calling for bans etc. and complaining against postors, IMO. What is this, 2nd grade? Takes all the fun from my pov, of identifying those that need to be banned.

No I take that back, I did not know that he is an ex-army/airforce. I suspected that (having read his blog regarding LCA many moons ago). Well we have had not so good apples in the armed forces (ADM Nadkarni), so ....

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 01 Dec 2008 20:58

While I agree with you somewhat on the news channels , you FAIL at logic

If Pakistan is behind the Mumbai terror attacks because Ajmal Amir Kasab is from Pakistan then Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UAE and Lebanon were behind the 9/11 attacks, not the Al Qaida, because the attacks were executed by citizens of these countries.

Why not educate us as to before 9/11 how many citizens of SA, Egypt and UAE were caught comitting terrorist activities in US, or the respective governments sending material, money and other support for terrorist activities in continental US? While you are at it, do also tell us how many LeT type organisations exist in these countries that openly seek donations for terrorist activities in US?

All the above happens in Pakistan though.

SandeepA · Post by **SandeepA** » 01 Dec 2008 21:01

I also do not like Aarnab change sice today US morning (that I attribute to Times of India management), but his coverage has been good during the terrorist strike

Arnab changed?
Well it was too good to last

amdavadi · Post by **amdavadi** » 01 Dec 2008 21:01

More like WKK type....Why cant we have right leaning channel when congress, commi, even the dog across the street from my house has their own channel.

What we need is Indian version of Fox.

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 01 Dec 2008 21:02

{All posts mentioning non-BRF existence of postors are haraam. In this case it does not result in the usual harm to those posting such info because it was clearly well-intentioned, but pls only convey such info to mods if that. DO NOT POST identities, occupations or affiliations of postors (if you happen to know them).

For instance, I am a duniya-famous movie and Rock star, but pls don't tell anyone.

As for the postor who called him "SAJA" etc, u r lucky that I have no time to pursue that, I just deleted the post and don't remember hu said it. Let's keep it that way, shall we?

}

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 01 Dec 2008 21:13

HariC wrote:{All posts mentioning non-BRF existence of postors are haraam. In this case it does not result in the usual harm to those posting such info because it was clearly well-intentioned, but pls only convey such info to mods if that. DO NOT POST identities, occupations or affiliations of postors (if you happen to know them).

For instance, I am a duniya-famous movie and Rock star, but pls don't tell anyone.

As for the postor who called him "SAJA" etc, u r lucky that I have no time to pursue that, I just deleted the post and don't remember hu said it. Let's keep it that way, shall we? }

janaab.. it was all public domain info that was in the link to his blog.. had tried to click the link and read the very first paragraph - he would not have degenerated into his 'here a paki , here a paki" mode.

{Completely agree with you and thanks for stopping the flame attacks, it saved me from having to ban several jingo postors... BUT... let me tell u a ishtory. I was having chai-biscoot on C-SPAN forum once, where there were FOUR ultra-prolific postors. One's profile said "USAF SR-71 Pilot" and claimed to have spent hajaar saal at Peshawar and Sargodha defeating the Soviet Union single-handed. Another was Ayesha, wimmen ishtudent at Lahore Aga Khan University (AK-47U, as I unkindly described it). Third was another (lets call it Jamal) at U. Cal Berkeley. The 4th was a Prominent PPP Politician in Lahore.

Well... 3 days into this tamasha, I was being my kind and gentle self and getting all four to appeal to the C-SPAN webnazis to ban me every third post, much like some of the "senior postors" who suffered damage in fair combat to their H&D have been clamoring since I had the "Controversial Posts" thread in full entertainment mode

Every time I posted something that caused them severe damage to the H&D, the FOUR would come on and post a flood of posts, so that my latest atrocity was hidden from readers who didn't scroll back 5 pages. Then I would unkindly post something else that caused them grief. This was in stalemate mode.

Then someone else ( a Djinn) kindly emailed me through the Vanara Sena Intel circles that the posting IPs of all 4 were identical, and from New Jersey.. You can draw any lessons from that that you wish, including the fearsome nature of my Sources.

Postscript: So I pointed out respectfully, with "Asalam-u-Aleikum", "Allaho Akbar" etc. to the Politician, that some of his posts were made between 12 and 1 on Fridays, Pakistan Standard Time. I had not checked - why waste my time - it was a Wild-Gaddha-Guess but I was confident that I was dealing with a Gaddha. So I asked how this could be halal, and wasn't he risking a invitation to visit the Blasphemy Court. Spectacular reaction! The "PPP politician" hurried to "explain" that he was often VISITING the US, (Washington DC, to visit the Senators), and the others disappeared, and so did the politician.

As shiv says: "Jo Lahore mein gandoo, woh Caliphornia aur Internet mein bhi gandoo". NEVER assume that what is posted on "user profiles" etc. are any truer than the Mauritius Student ID and passport. No insult intended to the postor in question, please, just saying that on the internet, we must treat ALL postors strictly on the merits of their POSTS, not their resumes. Class or pakiness cannot be kept down forever - they show up soon enough, esp. with my patented 4SPDA. }

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 01 Dec 2008 21:28

MILAN - A plan by Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) that had been in the pipelines for several months - even though official policy was to ditch it - saw what was to be a low-profile attack in Kashmir turn into the massive attacks on Mumbai last week.

The original plan was highjacked by the Laskar-e-Taiba (LET), a Pakistani militant group that generally focussed on the Kashmir struggle, and al-Qaeda, resulting in the deaths of nearly 200 people in Mumbai as groups of militants sprayed bullets and hand

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/JL02Df05.html

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 01 Dec 2008 21:35

Saw this on CNN-IBN ticker : Paki FM completely denying that they have Dawood in Pakistan.

Duh !!! Isn't this the Paki line all along ?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Dec 2008 21:45

harbans wrote:
MILAN - A plan by Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) that had been in the pipelines for several months - even though official policy was to ditch it - saw what was to be a low-profile attack in Kashmir turn into the massive attacks on Mumbai last week.

The original plan was highjacked by the Laskar-e-Taiba (LET), a Pakistani militant group that generally focussed on the Kashmir struggle, and al-Qaeda, resulting in the deaths of nearly 200 people in Mumbai as groups of militants sprayed bullets and hand
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/JL02Df05.html

Al-Qaeda 'hijack' led to Mumbai attack
By Syed Saleem Shahzad

MILAN - A plan by Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) that had been in the pipelines for several months - even though official policy was to ditch it - saw what was to be a low-profile attack in Kashmir turn into the massive attacks on Mumbai last week.

The original plan was highjacked by the Laskar-e-Taiba (LET), a Pakistani militant group that generally focussed on the Kashmir struggle, and al-Qaeda, resulting in the deaths of nearly 200 people in Mumbai as groups of militants sprayed bullets and hand

grenades at hotels, restaurants and train stations, as well as a Jewish community center.

The attack has sent shock waves across India and threatens to revive the intense periods of hostility the two countries have endured since their independence from British India in 1947.

There is now the possibility that Pakistan will undergo another about-turn and rethink its support of the "war in terror"; until the end of 2001, it supported the Taliban administration in Afghanistan. It could now back off from its restive tribal areas, leaving the Taliban a free hand to consolidate their Afghan insurgency.

A US State Department official categorically mentioned that Pakistan's "smoking gun" could turn the US's relations with Pakistan sour. The one militant captured - several were killed - is reported to have been a Pakistani trained by the LET.

A plan goes wrong
Asia Times Online investigations reveal that several things went wrong within the ISI, which resulted in the Mumbai attacks.

Before the September 11, 2001, attacks on the United States, the ISI had several operations areas as far as India was concerned. The major forward sections were in Muzzafarabad, the capital of Pakistan-administered Kashmir, which were used to launch proxy operations through Kashmir separatist groups in Indian-administered Kashmir.

The next major areas were Nepal and Bangladesh, where both countries were used for smuggling arms and ammunition into India and for launching militants to carry out high-level guerrilla operations in Indian territory other than Kashmir.

After 9/11, when Islamabad sided with the United States in the "war on terror" and the invasion of Afghanistan was launched to catch al-Qaeda members and militants, Pakistan was forced to abandon its Muzzafarabad operations under American pressure. The major recent turn in the political situation in Nepal with the victory of Maoists and the abolishment of the monarchy has reduced the ISI's operations. An identical situation has happened in Bangladesh, where governments have changed.

The only active forward sections were left in the southern port city of Karachi, and the former Muzzafarabad sections were sent there. The PNS Iqbal (a naval commando unit) was the main outlet for militants to be given training and through deserted points they were launched into the Arabian sea and on into the Indian region of Gujarat.

At the same time, Washington mediated a dialogue process between India and Pakistan, which resulted in some calm. Militants were advised by the ISI to sit tight at their homes to await orders.

However, that never happened. The most important asset of the ISI, the Laskhar-e-Taiba (LET), was split after 9/11. Several of its top-ranking commanders and office bearers joined hands with al-Qaeda militants. A millionaire Karachi-based businessman, Arif Qasmani, who was a major donor for ISI-sponsored LET operations in India, was arrested for playing a double game - he was accused of working with the ISI while also sending money to Pakistan's South Waziristan tribal area for the purchase of arms and ammunition for al-Qaeda militants.

The network of the Harkat-ul-Jihad-al-Islami, which was a major supporter of the ISI in the whole region, especially in Bangladesh, was shattered and fell into the hands of al-Qaeda when Maulana Ilyas Kashmiri, chief of Harkat, a hero of the armed struggle in Kashmir who had spent two years in an Indian jail, was arrested by Pakistani security forces in January 2004. He was suspected of having links to suicide bombers who rammed their vehicles into then-president General Pervez Musharraf's convoy on December 25, 2003.

He was released after 30 days and cleared of all suspicion, but he was profoundly affected by the experience and abandoned his struggle for Kashmir's independence and moved to the North Waziristan tribal area with his family. His switch from the Kashmiri struggle to the Afghan resistance was an authentic religious instruction to those in the camps in Kashmir to move to support Afghanistan's armed struggle against foreign forces. Hundreds of Pakistani jihadis established a small training camp in the area.

Almost simultaneously, Harkat's Bangladesh network disconnected itself from the ISI and moved closer to al-Qaeda. That was the beginning of the problem which makes the Mumbai attack a very complex story.

India has never been a direct al-Qaeda target. This has been due in part to Delhi's traditionally impartial policy of strategic non-alignment and in part to al-Qaeda using India as a safe route from the Arabian Sea into Gujrat and then on to Mumbai and then either by air or overland to the United Arab Emirates. Al-Qaeda did not want to disrupt this arrangement by stirring up attacks in India.

Nevertheless, growing voices from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and from within India for the country to be a strategic partner of NATO and the US in Afghanistan compelled al-Qaeda, a year ago, to consider a plan to utilize Islamic militancy structures should this occur.

Several low-profile attacks were carried out in various parts of India as a rehearsal and Indian security agencies still have no idea who was behind them. Nevertheless, al-Qaeda was not yet prepared for any bigger moves, like the Mumbai attacks.

Under directives from Pakistan's army chief, General Ashfaq Kiani, who was then director general (DG) of the ISI, a low-profile plan was prepared to support Kashmiri militancy. That was normal, even in light of the peace process with India. Although Pakistan had closed down its major operations, it still provided some support to the militants so that the Kashmiri movement would not die down completely.

After Kiani was promoted to chief of army staff, Lieutenant General Nadeem Taj was placed as DG of the ISI. The external section under him routinely executed the plan of Kiani and trained a few dozen LET militants near Mangla Dam (near the capital Islamabad). They were sent by sea to Gujrat, from where they had to travel to Kashmir to carry out operations.

Meanwhile, a major reshuffle in the ISI two months ago officially shelved this low-key plan as the country's whole focus had shifted towards Pakistan's tribal areas. The director of the external wing was also changed, placing the "game" in the hands of a low-level ISI forward section head (a major) and the LET's commander-in-chief, Zakiur Rahman.

Zakiur was in Karachi for two months to personally oversee the plan. However, the militant networks in India and Bangladesh comprising the Harkat, which were now in al-Qaeda's hands, tailored some changes. Instead of Kashmir, they planned to attack Mumbai, using their existent local networks, with Westerners and the Jewish community center as targets.

Zakiur and the ISI's forward section in Karachi, completely disconnected from the top brass, approved the plan under which more than 10 men took Mumbai hostage for nearly three days and successfully established a reign of terror.

The attack, started from ISI headquarters and fined-tuned by al-Qaeda, has obviously caused outrage across India. The next issue is whether it has the potential to change the course of India's regional strategy and deter it from participating in NATO plans in Afghanistan.

Daniel Pipes, considered a leading member of Washington's neo-conservatives, told Asia Times Online, "It could be the other way around, like always happens with al-Qaeda. Nine-eleven was aimed to create a reign of terror in Washington, but only caused a very furious reaction from the United States of America. The 07/07 bombing [in London] was another move to force the UK to pull out of Iraq, but it further reinforced the UK's policies in the 'war on terror'. The Madrid bombing was just an isolated incident which caused Spain's pullout from Iraq."

Pipes continued, "They [militants] are the believers of conspiracy theories and therefore they would have seen the Jewish center [attacked in Mumbai] as some sort of influence in the region and that's why they chose to target it, but on the other hand they got immense international attention which they could not have acquired if they would have just attacked local targets."

Israeli politician and a former interim president, Abraham Burg, told Asia Times Online, "It was not only Jewish but American and other foreigners [who were targeted]. The main purpose may have been to keep foreigners away from India. Nevertheless, there is something deeper. This attack on a Jewish target becomes symbolic.

"I remember when al-Qaeda carried out the attack on the USS Cole in Yemen [in 2000] and then they carried out attacks on American embassies in Africa, they mentioned several reasons. The Palestinian issue was number four or five, but later when they found that it had become the most popular one, it suddenly climbed up to number one position on their priority list. Since the attack on the Jewish institution drew so much attention, God forbid, it could be their strategy all over the world," Burg said.

Al-Qaeda stoked this particular fire that could spark new hostilities in South Asia. What steps India takes on the military front against Pakistan will become clearer in the coming days, but already in Karachi there has been trouble.

Two well-known Indophile political parties, the Muttahida Qaumi Movement, a coalition partner in the government comprising people who migrated to Pakistan after the partition of British India in 1947, and the Awami National Party, another coalition partner in the government and a Pashtun sub-nationalist political party, clashed within 24 hours of the Mumbai attacks. Fifteen people have been killed to date and the city is closed, like Mumbai was after the November 26 attacks.

Syed Saleem Shahzad is Asia Times Online's Pakistan Bureau Chief. He can be reached at [email protected]

(Copyright 2008 Asia Times Online (Holdings) Ltd. All rights reserved. Please contact us about sales, syndication and republishing.)

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 01 Dec 2008 21:47

BBC is going to show some background about the apprehended terrorist in a moment from Faridkot, Pakistan.

Nesoj · Post by **Nesoj** » 01 Dec 2008 21:48

TIMES OF INDIA
Bush sends Condi Rice to India to manage response towards Pak
------- Among the actions being considered in informal exchanges is to strive for a UN resolution empowering a coalition of affected countries to dismantle terrorist camps in Pakistan, including in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. Countries affected by these camps include the US, U.K, India, China, and Russia, and because of its victims in the Mumbai massacre, several EU countries and Israel. Such a resolution would send a powerful signal to Pakistan’s military, which is alleged to have funded and maintained these terror camps through its intelligence agency ISI, that is has antagonized the whole world.

NOW THIS SOUNDS INTERESTING !!!!!

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Dec 2008 21:48

vkthakur, in your anger against a particular channel, you are exonerating Pakistan of its failures. Don't be fooled by the Lahori logic that Pakistanis are employing. KSA, Egypt, UAE governments never actively sponsored terrorism against the USA. That is not the case with Pakistan. KSA, Egypt and UAE did not have obsessive compulsive nuerotic implacabilty with the US (Egypt might have had briefly but by 2001, the US and Egypt had become close). Pakistan has that disorder with India. In spite of repeated redcorner notices from Interpol for terrorist from India hiding in their country, they continue to deny their presence there while even Pakistani newspapers acknowledge their presence there. Such denials amount therefore to complicity in terrorism. Pakistani politicians have openly admitted to the presence of terror training camps directed against India. As I repeatedly say, if Pakistanis had been involved in over 150 major terrorist incidents since 9/11 all over the world, why would they not be involved in terror attacks (most even if not all) in India ?

Manu · Post by **Manu** » 01 Dec 2008 21:49

Manu wrote:(3) For once, try to think like a Pakistani. I am not being funny or sarcastic.
(c) The Samjhauta Blasts investigation was directly harmed because of this tamasha (Blaming Lt. Col. Purohit for the RDX used in that Blast, when the official GOI stand was that no RDX was, infact used). Then, the public prosecutor, realizing that he had made a Freudian slip, hastily said (or was told by the conniving Netas) that the Media has misquoted him, although this is a statement he used (is on record) to get Lt. Col. Purohit's remand extended.

This exact argument was just made by Hamid Mir to Arnab Goswami on Times Now. Predictably, Arnab had no response.

All Pakis essentially repeating what MMS said, "Both are victims of Terrorism". "Let us work jointly".

The 'Evidence" in form of a Pig that is still alive, will not suffice, it seems. They want 'hard Evidence".

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Dec 2008 21:49

I dont think Arnab has gone ...... lets wait , may be he is having personal issue or anything else , who knows ? lets not make some one god one day and criticize him next day.

bart · Post by **bart** » 01 Dec 2008 21:50

vkthakur wrote: Times Now has been rabidly ratcheting up Indian public opinion against Pakistan, accusing it of complicity in the Mumbai terror strikes, on evidence that continues to be flimsy four days after the channel first made the accusation.
....

Shut the [bleep] up, Mr Goswami while you are still ahead of the curve.

Vijainder K Thakur
http://kuku.sawf.org

Mr. Thakur,

As you are an ex-serviceman I am curious to know what percentage of people who served/currently serving in the forces share your viewpoint. From what I have seen, at least you would be in a very small minority.

Not just amongst the forces, but also among the public in general, and certainly here on BRF.

With all due respect you seem to be a lot more annoyed at Arnab than you are at the terrorists who heartlessly killed innocents or their handlers in Pakistan who looked on with amusement and satisfaction.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Dec 2008 21:53

ajayv wrote:Austin,

Your right. They may not allow civilians to meet him but i guess no harm in making an attempt. Least we could do is have the hospital staff deliver it to him.

Point taken , let me get in touch with other BRF from Mumbai on this

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 01 Dec 2008 21:56

has anyone seen the clip where the firemen of mumbai got some back handed praise from the CNN? one of the commentators mentioned (when the fire dept first went in to douse the fire near the dome - the fighting was still on at that moment).

its amazing - if this was here, the fire dept will never go so close till the final all clear is given.

Then he continued it by saying -....

and it is the reason our swat gets some training in fire fighting skills as well.

sum · Post by **sum** » 01 Dec 2008 21:59

This exact argument was just made by Hamid Mir to Arnab Goswami on Times Now. Predictably, Arnab had no response.

What i don't understand is that when every roadside Paki starts off with the Samjautha bombing thing, why doesn't the anchor correct him that it was a slip of tongue by a over-zealous public prosecutor and was denied/taken back by the GoI the very next day?
Is it that the DDM also wants to (make us) believe that Col Purohit bombed the Samjautha?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 Dec 2008 22:00

But Leach doesn’t want to discuss that rationale — even though it’s not hard to find. Ten minutes of Googling will bring you to a fine article, “The Ideologies of South Asian Jihadi Groups,” from the April 2005 issue of Current Trends in Islamist Ideology. It’s by the respected journalist and diplomat Husain Haqqani, who, as it happens, is now Pakistan’s ambassador to the United States.

Lashkar-e-Taiba, Haqqani explains, is a jihadi group of Wahhabi persuasion, “backed by Saudi money and protected by Pakistani intelligence services.” He notes that “Lashkar-e-Taiba has adopted a maximalist agenda for global jihad.” Indeed, the political arm of the group has conveniently published a pamphlet, “Why Are We Waging Jihad?,” that lays out all kinds of reasons why the United States, Israel and India are “existential enemies of Islam.”

thanks for the heads up. I'm adding haqqani's article instead to the TSP thread.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Dec 2008 22:01

Manu wrote:This exact argument was just made by Hamid Mir to Arnab Goswami on Times Now. Predictably, Arnab had no response.

All Pakis essentially repeating what MMS said, "Both are victims of Terrorism". "Let us work jointly".

The 'Evidence" in form of a Pig that is still alive, will not suffice, it seems. They want 'hard Evidence".

Well Pakistani involvement is not episodic but systematic , how many of the most wanted criminal are facing prosecution in Pakistan's court ? None , but they are having good time in porki land enjoying state comfort and support.

If Purohit has indeed been involved and has done any acts of terror , if court is convinced by this they are free to punish him with capital punishment.

arun · Post by **arun** » 01 Dec 2008 22:04

A revelation to me that some Jewish people are so opposed to Zionism that they refuse to have anything to do with the Israeli Flag and State but yet live in Israel

:

Last update - 13:44 01/12/2008

Family of Mumbai Chabad victim rejects official Israeli memorial

By Yair Ettinger and Barak Ravid, Haaretz Correspondents

The family of Aryeh Leibish Teitelboim, one of six people killed when the Chabad House in Mumbai was attacked by Islamist militants last week, has rejected Israel's offer to hold an official memorial ceremony for him along with the other Jewish and Israeli fatalities.

The family has also said that it does not want Teitelboim's coffin wrapped in an Israeli flag before it is boarded onto the plane in India later Monday, as those of the other Jewish and Israeli victims will be.

Teitelboim's relatives and members of his Toldot Avraham Yitzhak community have also asked that his coffin not be included in the official ceremony which will be held upon landing at Ben Gurion International Airport.

Teitelboim grew up a member of the Hasidic Satmar sect and married into the Toldot Avraham Yitzhak sect ? two communities which oppose Zionism and do not recognize the State of Israel.

Teitelboim, who holds an American passport along with many other Satmar followers in Israel, disavowed his Israeli citizenship despite residing in Jerusalem. His wife and eight children hold Israeli citizenship.

The murder victim was educated in the ways of Satmar, which opposes the State of Israel," one of Teitelboim's relatives told Haaretz. "How can he turn into a symbol of the State of Israel? The family is very concerned about what will happen here at the ceremony. They are angry about the whole matter, it is a very sensitive issue."

Teitelboim's funeral will be held in Jerusalem and is expected to be attended by hundreds of Hasidic followers. The esteemed Toldot Avraham Yitzhak rabbi has cut short his visit to the United States in order to attend.

Haaretz

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 01 Dec 2008 22:05

Ok gentleman spoke to someone - who is damn proud of his boys for the job they did

points
- the men have done at least a years course - so extremely trained for taking on hostage rescuers
- the NSG men had NVG - but the fires were used to reduce the effectiveness
- the only thing that could have improved was getting the NSG in faster - but we all know that problem

The only other way this could have been slowed down is for the cops to be trained - even if the ATS is only for dealing with gangsters - no match for these

arun · Post by **arun** » 01 Dec 2008 22:06

Another story with an Israel link:

Israel names nanny a 'righteous gentile'

Jason Koutsoukis, Jerusalem
December 2, 2008

THE Indian nanny who rescued two-year-old Moshe Holtzberg from the attack at Mumbai's Chabad Jewish Centre will be conferred with a special honour usually reserved for those who risked their lives to save Jews from the Holocaust.

The "righteous gentile" award will enable Sandra Samuel to live in Israel. She and Moshe are expected to arrive in the country next week to live with the boy's maternal grandparents.

This is the honour that was bestowed on Oskar Schindler, the German industrialist who was the subject of Thomas Keneally's novel, Schindler's Ark. The book was turned into a film by Steven Spielberg.

Lauded a hero by the Chabad movement and Moshe's family, Ms Samuel had worked at the centre for about five years. She started caring for Moshe and had become "extremely connected to him", according to family and friends.

As terrorists stormed the Chabad centre last week, Ms Samuel locked herself in a room with another staff member.

The following morning, she heard Moshe calling her name and went to look for him.

She found Moshe, his pants covered in blood, crying beside his motionless parents. Ms Samuel told reporters she grabbed the child and ran outside.

Moshe's parents, Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg and his wife Rivka, were confirmed dead after commandos stormed the building. Ms Samuel has expressed a desire to move to Israel to stay with the boy. She will accompany Moshe's grandparents on a special flight being arranged by Israel's air force.

According to Menachem Brod, a spokesman for Chabad in Israel, the only obstacle to Ms Samuel being conferred with the status of "righteous gentile" is the paperwork.

The story of Moshe's survival and his quick-witted nanny has captured the hearts of terror-hardened Israelis, who have been gripped by the saga unfolding in a country many feel they know.

Six hostages were found dead inside the Chabad centre.

The Age, Australia

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Dec 2008 22:06

This from the ATimes artcile (above):

Al-Qaeda stoked this particular fire that could spark new hostilities in South Asia. What steps India takes on the military front against Pakistan will become clearer in the coming days, but already in Karachi there has been trouble.

Two well-known Indophile political parties, the Muttahida Qaumi Movement, a coalition partner in the government comprising people who migrated to Pakistan after the partition of British India in 1947, and the Awami National Party, another coalition partner in the government and a Pashtun sub-nationalist political party, clashed within 24 hours of the Mumbai attacks. Fifteen people have been killed to date and the city is closed, like Mumbai was after the November 26 attacks.

Seems to imply that India has some say in Karachi!!

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 01 Dec 2008 22:09

- the NSG men had NVG - but the fires were used to reduce the effectiveness

The second point goes on to show how well they were trained

sum · Post by **sum** » 01 Dec 2008 22:09

But, if both were Indophile( assuming it means Indian payroll as per ATimes), why would they clash with each other on India's orders?

sum · Post by **sum** » 01 Dec 2008 22:10

krishnan wrote:The second point goes on to show how well they were trained

Whic post are you referring to?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 01 Dec 2008 22:13

^^^ piglet training... cut the lights so that pursuers need NVG's, then light fires to overwhelm the NVG's - smart

I hope that somewhere we have a gallery of the piglets - all images, and i mean even the post mortem ones

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 01 Dec 2008 22:15

vkthakur wrote:India’s Times Now TV channel has been stirring one controversy after the other with the single minded purpose of promoting itself, ever since the terror carnage unfolded in Mumbai on November 26.

I say more power to Times Now, if it can promote itself

vkthakur wrote: However, the channel is pushing too many buttons in wrong places. The last thing that the country wants is a war, or even a mobilization, engineered by a section of the media to prop its ratings.

I can definitely understand where your button was pushed and it must hurt

vkthakur wrote:If Pakistan is behind the Mumbai terror attacks because Ajmal Amir Kasab is from Pakistan then Saudi Arabia, Egypt, UAE and Lebanon were behind the 9/11 attacks, not the Al Qaida, because the attacks were executed by citizens of these countries.

Saudi Arabia didn't lose 4 wars with US.
No, Saudi Arabia wasn't broken into 2 pieces by US.
No, Saudi Arabia's 90,000 soldiers didn't create a world record by surrendering to US
No, it doesn't whine about upstream Dams in US

vkthakur wrote: If Pakistan is complicit just because the Deccan Mujahidin email originated from Lahore then, give me a minute and I will make the US complicit by originating a similar email from Los Angeles!

If similar email originated from Los Angeles, yes US will be complicit until it hands over the SoB who sent the mail.

vkthakur wrote: The tone adopted by Times Now Editor-in-Chief Arnab Goswami when speaking with senior Pakistani officials, including their president and foreign minister, has been shocking, to say the very least.

You should have seen Paki FM's face when Pranab was talking to him in middle of press conference... The Paki Ambassador to India had to cover his nose due the stench emanating from Qureshi backside...
Later he was complaining to Arnab about quality of the Chinese made diapers

vkthakur wrote: Who the [bleep] does Arnab Goswami think he is? If you ask me he stutters so much he has no business to be even an anchor.

If you want to hear stuttering, watch today's call from Paki FM Qureshi to CNN-IBN, where the epitome of yellow journalism Padmashri Rajdeep 'I-BJ-Congress' Sardesai was asking pleasant questions.

vkthakur wrote: Vijainder K Thakur
http://kuku.sawf.org

Barkha Dutt
Managing Editor, NDTV 24x7.
Email: [email protected]

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 Dec 2008 22:21

dear vkthakur,
I doubt we are going to get another response from you but in case we do, here's my question.

Who do you think is responsible for this elaborately planned and executed operation, not to mention the specialised training of these terrorists.
do you have a theory or are you satisfied as long as pakistan is not implicated ?

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 01 Dec 2008 22:24

Thakur,

First of all, i found very difficult to find any one instance in your entire article where you said that Arnab is wrong.

Your point about the channel going for the sensationalism might be debated as that has been done by many a channel on this context. I am not endorsing any channel or approach, but should you also not wait for a debate before passing your judgement on this channel, your accusation sounds silly and childish atbest blaming one channel. It would be nice if you came up with some standards for channels in general and point out where this channel in particular has crossed that line.

Your comments on Arnab also show your emotions and opinions on that guy, which every one has. Just because you have a blog does not make your opinions special. If you do not like his attitude on the TV while talking to Pak minister, please learn to live with it. If you have any specific instance where Arnab has misspoken or mis represented the facts, please bring them forward and I am sure there will be penty of people who will support you.

1. So when did asking tough questions wrong in the media?
2. Who gave you a municipality permission to blanket out your opinons over others?
3. And when did the pieces that you have written is considered a standard? and what imaginary standard is that to which every one else has to live up to?

Even a blind dog can punch holes in a paper, what you have done is not even that - you lament that he did not stand up to some imaginary standard that you want him to stand up to, but in the process, you youself did not stand up to that standard. Well What gives me the right to give out my opinion on you? Yourself, by writing a article that is not worth commenting on. But here you have it. Just because we have to be civil on BR, here is my take on your take. And you will get plenty more opinions on BR.

Any flimsy evidence that you are mentioning seems to be not enough for you. I do not know what "other" proof you are expecting. Why do not you educate us.

1. You seem to ignore that captured terrorist "claims" to belong to LET - Should we think that these peolpe belong to Iraq as LET is known to be active there also
2. They had come in the boats - Do you think they came from UK, Germany or USA?
3. Yes for all we know he could be Chineese or Japaneese, or even Arabs and while at it why not throw African Americans into the mix (Others please excuse my using these countries). But just see how hollow your lack of evidence sounds.
4. Now please tell me the origination of the email from Pakistan does not fit into a pattern? And you are saying pointing out this pattern is wrong? Where did you get your education?
5. And as you pointed out, as he belongs to the Pakistan, this might be Jewish, Hindu or even Afghani conspiracy to tarnish Pakistan.

I thought every clue is used a piece of the puzzle to solve the mystery and to construct a edivence/proof. Well, what do we know - just some fools prowling on the internet to be educated by someone with high standards.

And oh by the way we can also do away with your "mindful" diversion at this time.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 01 Dec 2008 22:27

http://media.washingtontimes.com/media/ ... _Kwed2.JPG

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 01 Dec 2008 22:29

Gentle moderators for your info:
{Abhi: pls kindly read moi's long story rant under HariC's post}

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 01 Dec 2008 22:29

Acharya ji,

Image thordi chchotti kar dijiye, please!

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 01 Dec 2008 22:30

Lalmohan wrote:I am now in no doubt that recent political issues in India related to terror and Islamic vote bank justified actions are very definitely part of this 'conspiracy'

there is definitely a conspiracy. Otherwise how come the Govt avoid all responsibility of not acting on advance information as precise as before 24 hours before the incident took place and the previous hullabaloo over the Malegaon & Purohit & Samjhauta episode without finally a shred of evidence.

Now most Pakistanis on this basis are doing equal=equal comparing the Malegaon/Samjhauta/Purohit controversy hatched by UPA with Mumbai attack and look at the timing of the Purohit episode. Who has allowed them this escape route ? It just isn't adding up.

How can GoI claim to be unaware of something that was in the pipeline and was being planned for the last one year.

This is my feeling. A new power is using ISI terror tool to it's own end. Probably this power has gained prominence and power with global economic downturn, Obama elections. Yes, Pakistanis are involved, yes ISI is involved but their masterminds are different. And considering GoI's with its tremendous electronic intelligence infra resources and their failure to alert the local agencies to imminent terror danger there is some mole or even a group of moles inside our body politic as well.

Ahmed Shuja Pasha

President Asif Ali Zardari had meetings in New York in late September with CIA Director Michael Hayden. (The Australian, September 29, 2008), Barely a few days later, a new US approved ISI chief Lieutenant General Ahmed Shuja Pasha was appointed by the Chief of the Army, General Kayani, on behalf of Washington.

In this regard, the pressures exerted by the Bush administration contributed to blocking a parliamentary initiative led by the PPP government to put the country's intelligence services (ISI) under civilian authority, namely under the jurisdiction of the Ministry of Interior.

In other words, Washington exerts more control over the ISI than the duly elected civilian government of Pakistan.

photos of bwanas

Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha (right) next to Gen. Ashfaq Kayani on the USS Abraham Lincoln talking with Michael Mullen, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Look at the body language of the two jokers, two small bwanas at mercy of massa.

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 01 Dec 2008 22:32

video of girly boy getting captured...

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/video/ ... ndian_City

sorry if repost

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 01 Dec 2008 22:36

Hope every legal tool is used to put pressure on the cozy babus and politicians.

PIL filed against NSA, politicians over Mumbai terror attacks
1 Dec 2008, 2100 hrs IST, PTI

MUMBAI: A PIL has been filed in the aftermath of the terror attacks on Mumbai, seeking action against National Security Advisor M K Narayanan, top politicians and bureaucrats.

The petition, filed by Mumbai-based advocate V P Patil, is likely to come up for hearing before the Bombay High Court on December 4.

Reflecting the popular sentiment, the petition alleges that top bureaucrats and politicians were "negligent" and "irresponsible" in doing their jobs.

Like in the case of 1993 Mumbai riots, an inquiry by senior sitting judge of the High Court should be conducted to look into the lapses of the government machinery, Patil has demanded.

Action should be taken against erring bureaucrats and ministers for negligence and acts of omission, the petition says.

The PIL seeks a direction to the union government to post National Security Guards "permanently" at Mumbai and other main cities.

The Union government should take action against those responsible for delay in sending the NSG to Mumbai, it says.

Hitting out specifically at Narayanan, the PIL says that he has been "irresponsible" and the country's security has been in the hands of negligent and incompetent people.

There was a gross intelligence failure, it adds. It also seeks a direction to the Defence Ministry to enhance the coastal security.