Indian Response to Terrorism

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Dec 2008 01:41

Reuters: Pakistan haunted by jihadis in the closet

By Simon Cameron-Moore

ISLAMABAD, Dec 2 (Reuters) - They are Pakistan's version of Frankenstein's monster.

Secretly trained in guerrilla warfare by the army to fight Indian rule in Kashmir, jihadis have ruined Pakistan's international reputation, and fuelled militant violence that is threatening to destabilise the nuclear-armed state, analysts say.

International revulsion and Indian accusations over the slaughter of 183 people in Mumbai have put Pakistani authorities under immense pressure to uproot groups like Lashkar-e-Taiba and Jaish-e-Mohammad.

{This, in response to the list of 20 to be handed over}
Pakistan says these groups are no longer in the country, having been banned almost seven years ago, and denies anything more than diplomatic and moral support for Kashmiri freedom fighters.

Yet, analysts say, Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency has clung onto these assets, protecting them despite mounting evidence of links to al Qaeda's global jihad and the Taliban insurgency in Afghanistan.

"They are all one," said Ahmed Rashid, author of "Descent into Chaos", a book that dissects how the region has been plunged into turmoil by Pakistan's use of militants left over from the Afghan jihad against the Soviet occupation in the 1980s.

Rashid believes the assault on Mumbai was possibly planned and sanctioned by al Qaeda and the Taliban, who want to create a strategic diversion to draw Pakistani forces away from the Afghan border where the militants have been pounded in recent months.

The groups that actually executed the attack were more likely taking orders, he said.

"I think the strategic decision was made possibly by al Qaeda, the shura (council) of the Pakistani Taliban leadership, with some of these groups sitting in," he said.

PAKISTAN VICTIM, TOO

President Asif Ali Zardari, leading an eight-month-old civilian government, has asked the world to recognise that Pakistan is a victim of terrorism too.

"Even if the militants are linked to Lashkar-e-Taiba, who do you think we are fighting," Zardari told the Financial Times newspaper on Monday to assuage outrage over the Mumbai carnage.

Zardari is an assassination target. His wife, two-time prime minister Benazir Bhutto, was killed a year ago in a suicide gun and bomb attack that was blamed on Islamist militants.

The trouble is, Lashkar is not one of the groups Pakistani security forces have been fighting. And even if the civilian government wants to get rid of these groups there is good reason to doubt whether the military would let it happen.

"The challenge for the government now is what do you do about these organisations," said Samina Ahmed, South Asia project director for the Brussels-based International Crisis Group.

"It's a big question mark," she said, noting that the civilians don't fully control the military in a country still in the early stages of a transition to democracy after more than eight years under former army chief Pervez Musharraf.

Lashkar was banned in 2002, after it was blamed, along with Jaish, for the December 2001 attack on the Indian parliament that almost led to a fourth war with India. But, the ban was in name only, the leaders of Lashkar and Jaish have only suffered periodic spells of house arrest, and their ranks are as strong as ever, analysts say.

PAKISTAN'S PARTIAL MAKE-OVER

Having been made a crucial ally in the war against terrorism after al Qaeda's 2001 attacks against the United States, Pakistan managed a partial make-over by helping to kill and capture hundreds of al Qaeda members.

At the same time, many Western analysts suspect off-payroll Pakistani agents of supporting the Taliban, in the hope of one day regaining influence in Kabul as a backstop against Indian regional hegemony.

The government cracked down on militant groups that had openly turned against Musharraf, but refused to see the ideological risk all the groups posed to any ambitions for Pakistan to become a progressive, modern Muslim nation.

"They all have the desire to destabilise Pakistan with the aim of creating an Islamic state," said Brian Cloughley, author of "Wars, Coups and Terror" about Pakistan's army.

The ceasefire with India and start of a peace process in 2004 resulted in more splits in the militant groups with some joining forces with the al Qaeda and Taliban network.

Pakistani security forces, in the words of a Western diplomat, "crossed the Rubicon" when they crushed an Islamist militant movement at Islamabad's Red Mosque in 2007.

Since then, the country has reeled from waves of suicide bombings and attacks launched by militants largely operating out of the tribal lands bordering Afghanistan.

Those areas are the strongholds of the Taliban and al Qaeda, but there have been increasing signs that fighters from jihadi groups, like Lashkar and Jaish-e-Mohammad who are based in Pakistan's Punjab province, have moved in, too.

ICG's Ahmed says Western counter-terrorism agencies with influence in Pakistan made an error by focusing so heavily on the networks in the tribal areas, while neglecting the jihadi groups in central and southern Punjab.

"The militant jihadi organisations that are in the Pakistani heartland, they are far more dangerous," Ahmed said.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Dec 2008 01:56

NRao, That means the TSPA is giving up the land west of the Indus and facilitating the Pakiban Emirate. They are using the alibi of the Mumbai terrorist attacks to do this. This whole show/charade is for US benefit. The reality is they are retreating east of Indus as they can no longer defend it from Pakiban. Most likely the Mumbai attack was to provide cove for this retreat.

Samuel, Its not same as Badmash time. This time there must be assurances for unlce. UPA cant afford to look like fools twice in row. They will lose the elections.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Dec 2008 02:02

samuel wrote:Isn't this a repeat of the Nawaz Sharif story, err dejavu all over again?

It is Pakistans only story.

IF it is the GoP/PA/ISI then it is escalatory to the extent it hurts everyone, and, IF it is terrorists groups then they do no exist in the country.

Ramana,

No there are not. We have to be careful how and where we use the word "Pakistan".

The elements within the PA + ISI that are Talibanised, to them there is really no difference between TSP and Taliban. So, they are actually gaining ALL of Pakistan. I would like to argue that the non-democratic forces have just shown their cards and are willing to put into action.

My read is that Prez Z just lost control. It would be interesting to see what he says on Larry King live tonight (9 PM EST). Bet it will be the same stuff we have all heard and it will be some dumb questions from Larry. I would like Larry to start of with - why talk about war when no one is mobilizing or accusing TSP of anything?

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 03 Dec 2008 02:04

RajeshA,

My bringing up France, was to say, that countries develop with time, and India too will develop.

I agree. The generational turnover in leadership is an interesting (and optimistic to boot) POV to look at the direction in which we are headed. If after the political fab 4 retire (MMS, LKA, ABV already gone a la Saurav, and SG), then hopefully the next in line will be the younger fire-in-the-belly, media-savvy new age movers and shakers. Yup, the jaitleys, modis, patnaiks, omar abdullahs and mayawatis come to mind.

Generationally, the rest of the P5 are also on the move. yankee boomers have started to retire peaking in 2012 and the resulting strain on the Social security systems a decade down will not be minor, I surmise. Further, real inflation rel to incomes is going to be much higher in the west (both US and EU) and consequently, std of living will slow or may even decline a bit rel to the improvement in still growing Asia. And generationally both Russia and the Eu are in dire straits going by their refusal to generate the next lot, looks like. PRC as always, remians the dark horse.

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 03 Dec 2008 02:05

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Isla ... 786207.cms

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Dec 2008 02:10

There are two very interesting captions in today's FT:

Front page, under "News Briefing":

Rice warms Pakistan

, and then on Page 7

A technocrat rather than a war leader: Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh

I would have thought, if at all, it would have been the other way around!

However, here are the articles. MMS does not seem to be the leader for this situation, something we all knew about.

Rice urges Pakistan to root out extremists

By James Blitz in London, Daniel Dombey in Washington and,Joe Leahy in Mumbai

Published: December 2 2008 02:00 | Last updated: December 2 2008 02:00

Condoleezza Rice, US secretary of state, yesterday warned that Pakistan faced a "critical moment" in its recent history, one in which its leading institutions must unite to root out the extremism that generated last week's killings in Mumbai.

As tensions between India and Pakistan over the atrocities mount, she insisted Pakistan must be transparent and give "absolute and total" co-operation to India in the hunt for the perpetrators of last week's attacks.

Preparing for a hastily-arranged visit to India tomorrow, Ms Rice said the US urged India to give a controlled response to the atrocity.

She said New Delhi must concentrate on getting the "highest levels" of co-operation from law enforcement and intelligence agencies in Pakistan, rather than resorting to a military response.

Her main message was for Asif Ali Zardari, Pakistan's president. "This is a critical moment for Pakistan to bring all of its institutions into a common strategy to defend Pakistan," she told reporters in London. "Defending Pakistan means rooting out extremism; defending Pakistani interests means co-operating fully; defending Pakistani interests means investigating this so that further attacks can be prevented."

She added: "This is a very serious time for commitment to getting to the bottom of this." She said India had been the victim of Muslim-sponsored terrorism many times before but that "this was a qualitatively different set of circumstances than we have seen in the past and it requires a qualitatively different response."

Indian officials have said the Islamist militants who attacked Mumbai were from an anti-India group based in Pakistan. President Zardari has vowed to crack down if given proof but has urged India not to punish his country for the attacks on India's financial capital.

There were fresh signs of tensions between both sides yesterday when India's foreign ministry summoned Pakistan's high commissioner to New Delhi over the incident. "He was informed that the recent terrorist attack on Mumbai was carried out by elements from Pakistan," the Indian foreign ministry said in a statement.

Barack Obama, US president-elect, yesterday sidestepped a question as to whether India would be justified in launching attacks against alleged terrorist targets in Pakistan, a right he has claimed for the US when discussing the fight against al-Qaeda and the Taliban.

"Sovereign nations obviously have a right to protect themselves; beyond that I don't want to comment on the specific situation that's taking place in South Asia right now," he said. The issue is bound to be sensitive for his administration. Mr Obama has identified the Pakistan-Afghanistan region as the central front in the battle against terrorism and wants to convince Islamabad to focus on combating the insurgency in its northwestern border areas rather than on tensions with India, its traditional foe.

Across Mumbai, people's bewilderment at the attacks was yesterday turning into outrage.

Despite numerous terrorist bombings over the past year in other cities, including the political capital New Delhi and India's Silicon Valley, Bangalore, the government appears to have been little prepared for the Mumbai assault

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Dec 2008 02:13

THIS is crucial. India NEEDS a leader for this situation.

Doubts surround introspective Singh's ability to reform security

By Alan Beattie in New Delhi

Published: December 2 2008 02:00 | Last updated: December 2 2008 02:00

Manmohan Singh ensured his place in history when, as India's finance minister in 1991, he seized the opportunity of an economic crisis to push through radical reform of its regulation-bound economy. Now, as prime minister, he faces a fresh crisis: reforming a security regime that was found deeply wanting by the Mumbai attacks.

But with only a few months before his government must call a general election, Mr Singh may find it hard to shake up an administration many observers say is characterised by drift and introspection.

In spite of his previous success at the finance ministry, there was not universal praise for his decision this weekend to combine it with his prime ministerial role after appointing Palaniappan Chidambaram, the current finance minister, to replace Shivraj Patil as home minister. "Taking over the finance portfolio himself is not a good idea," says Tarun Das, chief mentor to the Confederation of Indian Industry, who hopes it is only a stopgap measure. "It needs a full-time minister."

Mr Singh is not a deal-making politician with a strong personal power base but a technocrat who has never been elected to a seat in the lower house, or Lok Sabha, of parliament.

Since he became prime minister in 2004, the conventional wisdom has been that Mr Singh's scope to push on with economic reform and other policies has been curtailed by Sonia Gandhi, the Congress party's president who anointed him, and the leftwing parties in the ruling coalition.

Pradeep Mehta, secretary-general of the Consumer Unity & Trust Society, a non-governmental campaign and think-tank based in Jaipur, says: "Manmohan Singh has two problems. One, a lack of support from the left. Two, he is too good a man to be a politician."

Some observers say a more forceful character might still have made more progress. "The prime minister's main problem is not with Sonia Gandhi or with his coalition partners - it is that he needs to provide the political willpower to get things done," Mr Das says.

Formulating India's response to the security threat provides a good test. The government's response to previous bombings has been low-key, including appeals for peace between Hindus and Muslims and allowing Mr Patil to stay in his job in spite of complaints about his competence. Since the Mumbai attacks, Mr Singh has talked about a new federal agency to combat terror. But for those frustrated with his introspective style, quicker action is needed.

Mr Das says: "The attacks on Mumbai could be a turning point for the government getting properly tough on terror but only if they seize the moment." The prime minister "needs to admit he was wrong about terror and push through a new prevention of terrorism bill in the current session of parliament. No one would dare vote against it".

But for an administration that has largely failed to push ahead with radical reform of the economy or anything else, that would mean a decisive break in style. "I am not sure he has the stamina to get things done," Mr Mehta says. "In a sense, his is already a government in transition."

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Dec 2008 02:16

India under fire

Of course, we ALL forgot about HIM. Now India must act to save his sleep.

By James Lamont

Published: December 2 2008 02:00 | Last updated: December 2 2008 02:00

On the first night of last week's terror attacks on Mumbai, Amitabh Bachchan did something he had never done before. Before going to bed Mr Bachchan, one of Bollywood's biggest film stars, pulled out his licensed revolver, loaded it and tucked it under his pillow.

It did not help him sleep any better as gunshots and explosions rang out over the city's storied Marine Drive. "My pain has been the sight and plight of my innocent and vulnerable and completely insecure countrymen . . . And my anger has been at the ineptitude of the authorities," he wrote on his blog.

Amazing.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Dec 2008 02:19

Attack on Mumbai interrupts Zardari's overtures

Need login. Plenty of excuses.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Dec 2008 02:20

P Chidambaram for Security is quite laughable as well!.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Dec 2008 02:24

There you have it. Some things in Islam are OK.

Mumbai attacks: Terrorists took cocaine to stay awake during assault

Terrorists who battled Indian commandos for 60-hours last week relied on cocaine and other stimulants to stay awake for the duration of the fight

By Damien McElroy in Mumbai
Last Updated: 12:54PM GMT 02 Dec 2008

Officials said drug paraphernalia, including syringes, was recovered from the scene of the attacks, which killed almost 200 people.

The heavily built men, who had undergone training at a special marine camp established by the Lashkar-e-Taibat (LeT) terrorist group in Pakistan, had also used steroids to build a tougher physique.

"We found injections containing traces of cocaine and LSD left behind by the terrorists and later found drugs in their blood," said one official.

"There was also evidence of steroids, which isn't uncommon in terrorists.

"These men were all toned, suggesting they had been doing some heavy training for the attacks. This explains why they managed to battle the commandos for over 50 hours with no food or sleep."

One terrorist used the drugs to keep on fighting despite suffering a life-threatening injury.

Drugs are commonly used in India by workers in jobs where a lack of sleep is demanded, such as truck drivers and security guards.

The 10 men who attacked prominent Mumbai landmarks were able to hold off hundreds of India's best trained special forces by mounting sophisticated ambushes, maintaining a constant, steady rate of return fire and a superior knowledge of the layout of the buildings seized.

The gunman captured during the attacks on Mumbai has told police he underwent months of commando-style training in an Islamist militant camp in Pakistan.

The training was organised by the LeT and conducted by a former member of the Pakistani army, a police officer close to the interrogation said.

"They underwent training in several phases, which included training in handling weapons, bomb making, survival strategies, survival in a marine environment and even dietary habits," a senior officer said.

Now, that is red, could implicate the PA. IF (BIG If) true, it could be very serious under the circumstances.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Dec 2008 02:52

No Comment.

x-posted form Intel thread

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 03 Dec 2008 03:00

Even if we gave the list of Terrorism Top 20, delivering them alive would be tough for ISI/PA as they can spill their interaction with these 'state' forces to Indian Intelligence and consequently to the world.

They cannot kill all on the list as the jihadis might go berserk inside pakistan, Dawood is expendible and may be some more, so shortening the list for 'practicality sake' wouldn't benefit us much. Dawood can be replaced with some other local gangster for future terror strikes in India.

No war from our side, no concrete action from Pakistani side, killing by airstrikes with clustered munitions still leaves ISI/PA to fight another day, the command and control infrastructure stays and dispersed pigs regroup sooner or later. This operation has to be repeated whenever we have the intel, international 'sympathy' may not be available all the time.

or help turn the ire of jihadists towards Pak Army/ISI if needed with 'heavy moral' support without respite. By Pakistan or Western standards, 'home grown' extremism is that country's internal problem. The status quo of Pak's western border has to be maintained for this chaos to thrive.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Dec 2008 03:03

No-No. TSPA/ISI have the option to deliver them dead or alive. But deliver them is must.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Dec 2008 03:05

Imagine (AQ) + (Taliban) + (LeT/HuM/etc) each having their own strategic group and then at times these groups get together and strategize collectively. They strategize, plan and execute.

And, imagine, MMS was the first PM to create a strategic group - which to this day does not seemed to have published anything (I am not aware is they have done so). There is a pattern here .......... the politicians do nothing (all parties) and then have the armed forces bail them out or the IT guys bail them out or ........ someone else bail them out.

Pakistan is vocal and hits the Sunday TV circuits and will be on LKLive.

India has pressed the mute button.

At times I have this sinking feeling, that, IF it were not for the Paki intellect shooting itself in the foot, India would have been invaded for a second reckoning by these yahoos.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 03 Dec 2008 03:13

Other than the Terrorist Top 20 List already given to Pakistan, India should give a further list as part of 'compensation' for Mumbai Attacks, the WKK Top 20 List. All these WKK should be given Pakistani citizenship, and their Indian citizenship be taken away, people like

Suzanna Arundhati Roy
Praful Bidwai
Kuldip Nayar
....
(please add names, as you deem fit)

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Dec 2008 03:15

NRao, Dont be so despondent. India is cleaning house first and then do the needful. Right now need to fix the system. Those leaks from RAW are despicable.

TSP has to play to the gallery for they want them to bail them out. They think its the Western media that will save them. No it will be Indian will that allows them to be unpunished.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Dec 2008 03:17

Redraw I say. It will be very violent. But then none of us are here because of peace. At some point in time the bad has to be consciously removed. Crass as it sounds. It is unfortunate.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 03 Dec 2008 03:25

In the case of Libyan complicity/sponsorship of the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 on 21st December, 1988, Libya was forced to dish out a compensation of $10 million per family where 270 people died, totaling $2.7 billion.

I suggest, Pakistan should accept the responsibility for the Mumbai Attacks and pay a compensation of at least $10 million per person who died in the attacks. Furthermore, if Pakistani complicity is found in other terrorism offenses, Pakistan may have to pay much more. The injured and the traumatized should be compensated as well. The damage to the various hotels and public places need to be compensated in full also.

Moreover, this sum of money should be deducted from the Defense Budget of Pakistan, actually ISI's budget.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 03 Dec 2008 03:26

X posting from different thread. They've refused and called it premature.

http://www.app.com.pk/en_/index.php?opt ... 5&Itemid=2

Now the GOI won't know what next to do. It cannot rationally defend the demand for the 20, and will get it's knickers in a twist doing that. It will be laughed and ridiculed and sit in stunned stupor and helplessness. The Pakistani's have not failed here. They've won hands down this round. Instead of succeeding cutting the gordian knot just a bit between the Civilian admin and the PA/ ISI we've strengthened that knot by a few twitches more. Plain stupid.

What War will you seek in response to their snub now? Where's the strategy? Just go and bomb what? Just go and conquer what? This is not gathering on some Pataliputra battlefield sounding the conch and teaching the enemy a lesson.

With what face will the GOI reduce the list now to 2 or 3 key people?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Dec 2008 03:31

Pak accepts terrorists may be from its territory: US
3 Dec 2008, 0229 hrs IST, Chidanand Rajghatta, TNN
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
WASHINGTON: The terrorist massacre in Mumbai was plotted in Pakistan and was executed by Pakistanis, Indian and US officials now agree. The big
question now: How culpable are the Pakistani government and its military and intelligence agency, and how can the answer be handled either way it turns out?

That’s the tricky issue facing New Delhi and Washington as they put together pieces of the terrorist jigsaw to claimed 170-plus lives, including nearly 40 Muslims and nationals from 10 countries.

US advice to India: wait and see how Pakistani government cooperates in the investigation before any punitive action. US directive to Islamabad: prove your protestations of innocence and non-complicity at the official level, with a full and transparent cooperation in the face of overwhelming evidence that the footprints of the terror attack lead back to Pakistan.

This is the gist of the exchanges between the three countries. On Tuesday, Washington broadly accepted India’s contention, based on evidence now shared with US law enforcement and intelligence agencies that the terror trail led to Pakistan. The preponderance of proof include detailed confessions by the one surviving terrorist, GPS tracks, e-mail and electronic tracks, telephone intercepts, and ordnance and forensic evidence, among other things.

US acceptance of India’s case — dismissed out-of-hand as knee-jerk, premature etc — was signaled by an unnamed senior American official who was quoted by Reuters as saying ''There are a lot of reasons to think it might be a group, partially or wholly a group, that is located on Pakistan's territory.''

The official, accompanying Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on her trip to the sub-continent, also said Islamabad had accepted the ''possibility that there might be people located on Pakistani territory,'' involved in the attack and had promised to cooperate in the investigation.

On record though, the state department continued to give Pakistan some breathing space, saying ''it’s too early to say where these attackers originated from — where they originated from, who was behind these attacks.'' The White House took the same line on Monday, enabling a relieved Pakistani press to crow that Islamabad had been declared innocent.

But every a cursory reading beyond the generalities indicate anything but a clean chit. ''The investigation will obviously point us in a certain direction. But we need to let the investigation take its course. Finger-pointing is not necessarily the best thing at this particular time,'' State Department spokesman Robert Wood said, while offering a dead giveaway to the origins by immediately adding, ''However, it’s incumbent upon Pakistan to do what it can to make sure that they’re cooperating with this investigation, and help bring these culprits to justice.''

The tricky problem both New Delhi and the international community faces is in determining the culpability of the Pakistani government and its extent — whether through over or covert complicity or through inaction and denial.

Intelligence circles say Pakistan’s government has always tried to maintain a ''plausible deniability'' in all its covert activity, including sponsorship of terrorism and nuclear proliferation. For instance, even in the AQ Khan case, Islamabad initially denied proliferation, then insisted Khan had gone rogue and done it on his own. Khan now says the government was very much in the loop and authorised it.

In the Mumbai terror strike, intelligence circles surmise that it is possible the ISI had ''outsourced'' the operation to a former controller now functioning as a LeT commander or operative, who may or may not have turned rogue. Since preparation for the strike is thought to have stretched a year or more, it was conceived well before the current civilian government took change, and it might have happened without its approval or knowledge.

But no one, including Pakistani experts, doubts that LeT is a creation of the ISI, whose officers are often seconded to the terror group. ''Lashkar-e-Taiba was fostered by ISI as a surrogate to help Mujaheddin by Kashmir...in recent years they have broken out of control from ISI,'' Shuja Nawaz, a thoughtful Pakistani scholar and brother of former Army chief Asif Nawaz Janjua, who has written a candid history of a militarized Pakistan titled ''Crossed Swords,'' said on public television on Monday, openly articulating what is said in hushed whispers in Pakistan.

Nawaz said the LeT is still operating in Pakistan, holding large meetings and collecting funds, and a true test of Islamabad’s commitment will be to act on it now. ''If there is any ambivalence (towards LeT), now is the time...there should be no reason not to act,'' he said.

But going by past record, chances are bleak that Pakistan will stick to any commitment on crackdown or cooperation particularly since the military still seems to call the shots in Islamabad. A study of past crises between the two sides compiled by the Washington-based Stimson Center elaborately chronicles Islamabad’s fudging and double-speak on the terrorism issue based on interviews with U.S officials.

In one chapter, the study relates how former military ruler Pervez Musharraf kept fudging the infiltration and terrorism issue by telling U.S Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage that ''nothing is happening'' across the Line of Control. Armitage, it says, insisted on a more than a present-tense commitment from Musharraf.

''General Musharraf also claimed that training camps for militants did not exist on Pakistani soil. Armitage shared with Musharraf evidence to the contrary,'' the study relates. Musharraf finally commits not to allow Pakistan and the territory under its control not to be used for terrorism. ''Was Musharraf’s pledge substantive or just expedient?''the study asks, going to suggest that it was mostly the latter.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Dec 2008 03:40

Regardless of the culpability of the TSP govt its their duty to ensure that criminal and terrorist acts dont originate from their country. I dont see what the problem is. If TSP gove claims legitimacy then it has to act on terrorists operating from its territory. Or else the neighbors affected by the acts will have to act.

Meanwhile the Top20 honor roll

India awaits word on list of 20 most wanted

New Delhi Dec. 2: The external affairs minister, Mr Pranab Mukherjee, on Tuesday said India was awaiting a response from Pakistan on the most wanted criminals’ list handed over to the Pakistan high commissioner, Mr Shahid Malik, on Monday.
India has charged that elements based in Pakistan carried out the terrorist outrage in Mumbai last week and demands action by Islamabad, with evidence pointing to the LeT which is linked to al Qaeda.

The list includes “Tiger”, Ibrahim Memon, Ayub Memon, Chhota Shakeel, Ibrahim Athar, Syed Salahuddin, Abdul Razzak, Ishaaq Atta Hussain, Zahoor Ibrahim Mistri, Shahid Akhtar Sayed, Azhar Yusuf, Abdul Karim, Sagir Sabir Ali Shaikh, Gajinder Singh, Wadhawa Singh Babbar, Ranjit Singh Neeta, Paramjit Singh Panjwar and Lakhbir Singh Rode.

is ti TSP case that those Khalistanis are TSP citizens?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Dec 2008 03:47

Has the police mugshot-ed the pigs and put them on national papers, yet? we need to put it up!~.. that should be freely sent to each resident in porkistan.. there should be somewhere there their mothers who would see their sons' porkiness, and repent, or come to a realization about their genetics.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 03 Dec 2008 04:09

ramana wrote:Regardless of the culpability of the TSP govt its their duty to ensure that criminal and terrorist acts dont originate from their country. I dont see what the problem is. If TSP gove claims legitimacy then it has to act on terrorists operating from its territory. Or else the neighbors affected by the acts will have to act.

Meanwhile the Top20 honor roll

India awaits word on list of 20 most wanted

New Delhi Dec. 2: The external affairs minister, Mr Pranab Mukherjee, on Tuesday said India was awaiting a response from Pakistan on the most wanted criminals’ list handed over to the Pakistan high commissioner, Mr Shahid Malik, on Monday.
India has charged that elements based in Pakistan carried out the terrorist outrage in Mumbai last week and demands action by Islamabad, with evidence pointing to the LeT which is linked to al Qaeda.

The list includes “Tiger”, Ibrahim Memon, Ayub Memon, Chhota Shakeel, Ibrahim Athar, Syed Salahuddin, Abdul Razzak, Ishaaq Atta Hussain, Zahoor Ibrahim Mistri, Shahid Akhtar Sayed, Azhar Yusuf, Abdul Karim, Sagir Sabir Ali Shaikh, Gajinder Singh, Wadhawa Singh Babbar, Ranjit Singh Neeta, Paramjit Singh Panjwar and Lakhbir Singh Rode.

is ti TSP case that those Khalistanis are TSP citizens?

You know what TSP's response will be. With dazzling chuptzah, they will give a list of their own. And western media will do the equal equal thing.

I was listening to NPR past 2 days. And the response of the aam junta in India is pathetic. Some mass march in Mumbai is planned for 'better governance'. Some morons suggesting that Indian govt is to blame for not providing adequate protection, TSP is also victim of terror onlee and both should join hands. How this last piece of trash has assumed a life of its own is mind boggling.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 03 Dec 2008 04:17

I have been listening to NPR with amazement too. All reports talk of "India-Pakistan ... Pakistan-India ... India-Pakistan ... Pakistan-India ... India-Pakistan ... Pakistan-India".

This attack has re-hyphenated. This was de-hyphenation was something the NDA had done quite well. UPA as achieved it.

Also, thanks to pujya pradhan mantri, "TSP is also victim" has gained a life of its own. Why blame others when our own PM says this.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 03 Dec 2008 04:25

NRao: Sometimes thinking about all these does make it sad. Pakis have good PR troops that parrot the talking points non-stop. They come out well in PR exercise, i.e. as long as nobody knows the truth. In spite of decades of atrocities they have been able to escape. On the other hand, we stumble like a toddler. This only shows that Pakis put in more effort than India to make their case. For the moment ignoring the Indian Leftists and Media, who do not enable us to put a cohesive front, it is evident that we need top notch think-tanks and lobbying - both at the domestic and foreign levels. These are the Chanakyas under whom several Chandragupta will arise. I hope BR will be one of the leading think-tanks with so many of you gurulog here.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 03 Dec 2008 04:30

In the aftermath of September 11th, 2001, the USG did not claim that the Taliban government of Afghanistan was involved in plotting the attacks.

They did however demand that the Taliban hand over Al Qaeda leadership, and clean up the camps, or face the consequences.

The lack of Pakistani civilian government's involvement is irrelevant to Indian demands, nor should it shield them from consequences if they refuse to cooperate.

Pakistan is not as vulnerable as the Taliban government was, but it still has things to fear.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Dec 2008 04:32

ABC News is reporting that GoI is accusing GoP of direct involvement.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 03 Dec 2008 04:36

When you make demands, you have to have the capability & the will to back up with actions in case the demands are not met. Otherwise, your demands carry little effect, if you don't have the coercive ability to make the opponent yield to it, or at the very least take substantial losses if they defy.

Talibums refused to honor USG request, in fact they did the same thing TSP is doing, they asked for evidence. The USG refused to give evidence. When they refused, A'stan was attacked.

(By the way, while OBL's involvment in 9/11 was not proven by USG, until much later, if at all.)

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Dec 2008 04:37

Pakistan Blames 'Non-State Actors' for Attacks

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Dec 2008 04:44

NRao wrote:ABC News is reporting that GoI is accusing GoP of direct involvement.

Don't bother. ABC News seems to have generated more confusion than solved any thing.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 03 Dec 2008 04:52

Seems to me that next to sagging political will in Dilli, unkil's (misplaced) interest in maintaining TSP as a unified entity is the biggest impediment to possible Indian action.

Ideally, TSP's nightmares would come true and India and the US would collaborate (i) to denuke TSP, (ii) launch a blitzkreig that decisively cripples TSP's offensive military capability, (iii) redraw the PoK-NA map in India's favor (in return for which India can offer and guarantee a supply land route to NATO bases in A'stan via re-united J&K) and (iv) then proceed to dismember the rest of TSP. In return India could perhaps get on board with unkil's Iran plans and take one stepo close to semi-formalizing a mil alliance with unkil for PRC counterbalancing. Might just be worth it, I surmise, to resolve the PRC problem permanently.

That would need a non-lame-duck GoI in power though. This one has neither willingness nor ability to do anything meaningful. To paraphrase MJA, can't fight cancer with band-aid.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 03 Dec 2008 04:59

It is my sense that there is actually a small opening for India to flex its muscles. The world is watching Indian reaction very closely. If any action on TSP has to come, it has to come from India. India needs to show leadership in how to deal with TSP. India should be world's biggest expert in dealing with TSP. It should have the maximum capability and understanding of this entity. Given the magnitude of the attack, a small well placed punitive attack on TSP will be tolerated quite well by all concerned, esp Uncle. They will just look the other way, if India decides to land a few strong punches. India can, if it wants to, can make a well-calibrated response. Unkil, may well hold TSP hands in the back while we do it.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Dec 2008 05:01

Yes. Unkil's leadership is being tested by the TSP attack on India.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 03 Dec 2008 05:09

SaiK wrote:P Chidambaram for Security is quite laughable as well!.

Let us not underestimate him - apparently did his job in preparing for Black Thunder I & II. Infact I feel after the Fringe Benefit Tax fiasco, I strongly doubt the coffers of Cong would fill up with him in Finance. But in Home, am sure he will do his homework well.

Nor let us overestimate him. This is election year and he has a double-headed boss.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 03 Dec 2008 05:15

When you are a PM one has to be very careful in pronouncing

'Aar paar war" Akhand Bumbling Vajapyee

'Pakistan is also a victim of terror' Joker MMS

'British Rule was the best thing that ever happened' Elated Joker MMS in the presence of his masters.

***

Notice how the terror has descended from North (J&K) to entire India including Coimbuttor
SIMI from North to south East tro west.

Naxals from North east to central and south central Inida

Now from Bdesh into Assam and Arunachal Pradesh

LTTE rules Tamil Nadu The killers of Ex PM.

On the quality of terror (Sic)

Individual bomb throwers to groups with weapons accross Yellow sea accross Bdesh Border Burma
Now from Sea routes into heart of India Mumbai.

Has anybody seen any response from the state of India?

Erudite analysts like Amber G Rajesh A should have answers right up their hip for this simple question.

Oh by the way recall that Indian army repulsed the encroachment by PRC troops clasping hands and standing in line. This was spun as requirement to pass the Nuke deal as it would draw unnecessary attention in media to India.

SOme innovative ways we have tried to contain attacks on our people polity and territory.

Oh well what do I know I am a simpleton and forum idiot. no?

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 03 Dec 2008 05:16

surinder wrote:
In the aftermath of September 11th, 2001, the USG did not claim that the Taliban government of Afghanistan was involved in plotting the attacks.

They did however demand that the Taliban hand over Al Qaeda leadership, and clean up the camps, or face the consequences.

The lack of Pakistani civilian government's involvement is irrelevant to Indian demands, nor should it shield them from consequences if they refuse to cooperate.

Pakistan is not as vulnerable as the Taliban government was, but it still has things to fear.
When you make demands, you have to have the capability & the will to back up with actions in case the demands are not met. Otherwise, your demands carry little effect, if you don't have the coercive ability to make the opponent yield to it, or at the very least take substantial losses if they defy.

Quite.

I posted what I did because Indians and India need to make a clearer articulation of the principle amidst the discourse within the international media.

I.e. governments that do not cut their well documented links with terrorist groups, and offer full cooperation are liable to face consequnces after grave provocations, even *if* they were not involved in the planning of the attack.

It is something that can be buttressed with US campaign against the Taliban, Obama's statements, and Rice' message.

Whether those coercive actions are taken or not this time is another matter. It is important to lay the international public relations groundwork for them, whenever they might happen.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 03 Dec 2008 05:29

Simon marks is answering question on pbs.org on the attack.

Ujjal · Post by **Ujjal** » 03 Dec 2008 05:46

Bhaisahab, kiya list-wist aap dete ho. Chalein, chai biskoot ho jaaye.
Daaru hai kya, Qureshi sahab?

samuel · Post by **samuel** » 03 Dec 2008 07:05

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/asiap ... index.html

Zardari: 'Pakistan in no way responsible' for Mumbai attacks

* Story Highlights
* Pakistani President Zardari: "Stateless actors" behind attacks in Mumbai, India
* Indian intelligence sources tell CNN-IBN they believe attackers were Pakistani
* Zardari says he doubts suspect in custody is Pakistani
* He says he's willing to have Pakistan participate in a joint investigation with India

(CNN) -- Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari denied his nation was involved in last week's deadly attacks on Mumbai, India, and told CNN on Tuesday he's seen no evidence that a suspect in custody is a Pakistani national as Indian officials claim.

"I think these are stateless actors who have been operating all throughout the region," Zardari said on CNN's "Larry King Live" in an interview set to air Tuesday night. "The gunmen plus the planners, whoever they are, [are] stateless actors who have been holding hostage the whole world."

At least 179 people were killed when a band of gunmen attacked 10 targets in Mumbai on Wednesday night, triggering three days of battles with police and Indian troops in the heart of the city -- the hub of India's financial and entertainment industries. Most of the deaths occurred at the city's top two hotels: the Oberoi and the Taj Mahal. VideoWatch Zardari blame "stateless actors" »

Indian officials have publicly blamed Pakistani militants for the attacks, and called on Pakistan to hand over a group of wanted militant leaders suspected of plotting them. On Tuesday, Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi proposed a joint investigation into the attacks and said, "This is not the time to point fingers."

Zardari confirmed he is willing to have Pakistani security officials participate with India in a joint investigation.

"The state of Pakistan is in no way responsible," Zardari told King. "... Even the White House and the American CIA have said that today. The state of Pakistan is, of course, not involved. We're part of the victims, Larry. I'm a victim. The state of Pakistan is a victim. We are the victims of this war, and I am sorry for the Indians, and I feel sorry for them."

Indian officials have said that the only suspected attacker in custody has told police he is a Pakistani national. Indian intelligence sources have told CNN's sister network, CNN-IBN, that police believe all the attackers were Pakistanis.

Indian police say nine of the 10 attackers were killed by Indian forces.

Asked about the suspect in custody, Zardari said: "We have not been given any tangible proof to say that he is definitely a Pakistani. I very much doubt it, Larry, that he is a Pakistani."

He said Pakistan is looking into the allegation, but added, "Like I said, these are stateless individuals. ... We've had incidents the past two days in Karachi where we've lost more than 40 to 45 people, hundreds injured. These are stateless actors who are moving throughout this region."

India summoned Pakistan's high commissioner, the top-ranking Pakistani diplomat in New Delhi, to External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee's office Monday to inform him that last week's massacre in Mumbai "was carried out by elements from Pakistan."

It renewed a demand that Pakistan hand over a group of militant leaders whose extradition it has sought since a 2001 attack on India's Parliament that brought the South Asian nuclear rivals to the brink of war.

"The government expects that strong action would be taken against those elements, whosoever they may be, responsible for this outrage," a statement from India's Foreign Ministry said. "It was conveyed to the Pakistan high commissioner that Pakistan's actions needed to match the sentiments expressed by its leadership that it wishes to have a qualitatively new relationship with India."

The list reportedly includes Hafiz Mohammed, the head of Lashkar-e-Tayyiba, a now-banned Islamic militant group that denied last week that it was involved in the Mumbai attack. The group is blamed for the 2001 attack on India's Parliament.

"I am definitely going to look into all the possibility of any proof that is given to us," Zardari said. "At the moment, these are just names of individuals. No proof, no investigation, nothing has been brought forward."

If proof of the individuals' involvement is provided, he said, "We would try them in our courts, we would try them in our land, and we would sentence them."

Indian authorities said the suspect in custody was trained by Lashkar-e-Tayyiba.

Zardari told CNN that Lashkar-e-Tayyiba is a "banned organization" in Pakistan and around the world.

"If indeed they are involved, we would not know," he said. "Again, they are people who operate outside the system. They operate like -- al Qaeda, for instance, is not state-oriented. They operate something on that mechanism, and ... I've already offered India full cooperation on this incident, and we intend to do that."

"I'm firmly committed to fighting terrorism per se," he said. "That's why we are fighting them every day, Larry."

Asked about the possibility of Indian military strikes against terrorist camps in Pakistan, Zardari said: "I would not agree with that because this is a time to come together and do a joint investigation and look at the problem in the larger context. We have a larger threat on our hands ... it's a threat throughout the region. So that would be counterproductive."

Pakistan and India, both nuclear powers, have a tense relationship and have fought three wars since the subcontinent was divided in 1947. On whether the Mumbai attacks could trigger a fourth war, Zardari said: "Larry, democracies don't go to war. All those wars you're talking about did not take place in any democracy. They all happened in the times of dictators. ...

"The whole nation of Pakistan is united to ... becoming friends with India," he said.