Discussion on Indian Special Forces

Ajay K · Post by **Ajay K** » 03 Dec 2008 13:21

Folks, from the Mumbai operations seems that NSG came out in flying colors compared with the Macros. Macros seem to be complianing the lack of intelligence and close quarter training among other things. We would have expected Macros to a better job rather than putting up a PR stunt in front of the country. In the photo thread all those MP-5 which are silenced are carried by Macros or NSGs?

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Dec 2008 13:37

Folks, from the Mumbai operations seems that NSG came out in flying colors compared with the Macros. Macros seem to be complianing the lack of intelligence and close quarter training among other things. We would have expected Macros to a better job rather than putting up a PR stunt in front of the country.

Not sure as to what gave you such weird ideas?

If not for the MARCOS, causalities would have been in 3 figures. Also, how did you conclude that MARCOS didn’t do the job it was assigned( not sure that stroming the locations was ever given to MARCOS)?

Kartman · Post by **Kartman** » 03 Dec 2008 14:15

Div wrote:Has anyone compiled a list of the Army units/regiments that participated in these operations?

For starters...

Grenadiers
Sikh(Regt or LI, not sure ??)
Others ??

Remember reading a report that 2-3 companies from different units (incl. Sikh) were rushed from elsewhere in MH...

Himanshu · Post by **Himanshu** » 03 Dec 2008 14:19

MARCOS were primarily for perimeter security and holding out the terrorists till NSG arrive.. Rescuing the hostages in urban CQB is not what MARCOS specialize in..

ALSO.. MARCOS and NSG cannot work together in such situations as there are communication/signal issues and operational doctrinal conflicts.. NSG commandos work in pairs and MARCOS in a team of 3..

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 03 Dec 2008 15:08

Just a question, if NSG specializes in Urban CQB, say there is a need to bust a terror module in rural hinterland, or say a domestic camp setup in dense wooded area. Does it fall under the purview of NSG capabilities? Or will they send specifically NSG commandos who are deputed from Para SF and as such have expertise to deal with non-urban terrain from their parent unit?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Dec 2008 16:04

NSG mandates is very clearly focussed on Hostage Rescue. CQB in Urban setting is an element of the overall training. It was the 1972 Munich disaster that forced countries to raise speacialized HRT units; GSG-9 being the 1st product in Germany. Many countries have followed suit. Exception being the UK where SAS has the additional responsibility of Hostage rescue. Delta in US is dual tasked for external operations as well.

All SF units train for Urban CQB along with other tasks. Hostage Rescue is a different ball game in terms of training and equipment profile and as said before, NSG trains only for this. Its like MS(Hostage Rescue) vs MS(SPecial Operations). So they are bound to be better (better being a relative term) that other SF units at this. As for the busting in rural setting, wel the PARA(SF) and the Special Group have been doing exactly this for ages now.

Himanshu · Post by **Himanshu** » 03 Dec 2008 16:10

If this is in the conflict zone like J&K/North East.. it would be majorly tasked to Paras/RR battalions.. if it's in places other then these conflict zones then NSG would enter with support from Police authorities .. NSG comes under the home ministry ..

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Dec 2008 16:11

Special Group have been doing exactly this for ages now.

You mean SOG ?

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 03 Dec 2008 16:25

rohitvats wrote:NSG mandates is very clearly focussed on Hostage Rescue. CQB in Urban setting is an element of the overall training. It was the 1972 Munich disaster that forced countries to raise speacialized HRT units; GSG-9 being the 1st product in Germany. Many countries have followed suit. Exception being the UK where SAS has the additional responsibility of Hostage rescue. Delta in US is dual tasked for external operations as well.

All SF units train for Urban CQB along with other tasks. Hostage Rescue is a different ball game in terms of training and equipment profile and as said before, NSG trains only for this. Its like MS(Hostage Rescue) vs MS(SPecial Operations). So they are bound to be better (better being a relative term) that other SF units at this. As for the busting in rural setting, wel the PARA(SF) and the Special Group have been doing exactly this for ages now.

Rohit, thanks for your inputs. I am aware of the Para SF and Special Group's role in Kashmir. J & K is a border state and there is an unconventional war prevalent, with involvement of even conventionl Army units. When I was alluding to rural hinterland, I was talking about a non-conflict area, for example say rural UP or in South India.

I understand the emphasis on HR. Hence, the reason for MARCOs handing over charge to NSG, when the latter came into picture in Mumbai. But in my view, atleast few units of MARCOs and Para SF should imbibe Urban CQB and HR capabilities on the level of NSG.

This is to prepare for the eventuality of carrying out a Hostage Rescue or urban Direct Action outside Indian territory. For example, hijacked IC 814 in Kandahar. If GOI had decided to mount a rescue, NSG would not have the capabilities to carry out HR in hostile territory. Similarly, from what is said, Para SF or MARcOs, who can operate in hostile territory, would not have the expertise for HR like NSG.

Or there are such units/ capabilities within Para SF/ MARCOs which I am not aware of?

Thanks in advance.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 03 Dec 2008 16:29

Rahul M wrote:
Special Group have been doing exactly this for ages now.
You mean SOG ?

Rahul, I think Rohit is talking about Special Group of Special Frontier Force.

Ajay K · Post by **Ajay K** » 03 Dec 2008 17:25

rohitvats, if NSG specilises in HR then who would be better trained to handle lets say hostages in a hijacked ship or oil rig ? Macros or NSG? Also why did the Macros venture into the Taj - clearing rooms and take early pictures even sustaining injuries rather than taking up perimeter security? I am not sure of the Macro involvement in Oberio though.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 03 Dec 2008 17:56

Ajay K wrote:rohitvats, if NSG specilises in HR then who would be better trained to handle lets say hostages in a hijacked ship or oil rig ? Macros or NSG? Also why did the Macros venture into the Taj - clearing rooms and take early pictures even sustaining injuries rather than taking up perimeter security? I am not sure of the Macro involvement in Oberio though.

very simple, the piglets were not holding hostages, they were executing them - someone had to go and stop them or at least interfere

Himanshu · Post by **Himanshu** » 03 Dec 2008 17:59

Kiran.. For the HR in hostile territory.. Para/MARCOS would provide the cover while NSG would conduct the operation..

In case of the HR situation on ship/oil rig etc.. it would fall completely with MARCOS.. but remember HR is still not the forte of MARCOS in urban CQB environment..

Ajay.. MARCOS as I mentioned were trying to contain/engage the terrorists till the NSG landed.. They probably were trying to reduce the collateral had they left the terrorists open field in the building while the NSG were on their way.. MARCOS were always BEHIND the NSG in securing since the NSG took over the operations..

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 03 Dec 2008 20:17

There is a separate unit also called Special Group which consists of army and ikhwanis. AFAIK in J&K context we are referring to this one only.

KiranM wrote:
Rahul M wrote: You mean SOG ?
Rahul, I think Rohit is talking about Special Group of Special Frontier Force.

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Dec 2008 21:59

The one thing that this inident in Mumbai has ensured is that a treasure trove of pics and data about our SF(mainly MARCOS)/NSG has been bought to the public eye...

Also, it has ensured that even the common man now knows about the NSG/MARCOS and their "special skills". Very,very handy PR opportunity to recruit the good ones out there.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 03 Dec 2008 22:04

Aditya G wrote:There is a separate unit also called Special Group which consists of army and ikhwanis. AFAIK in J&K context we are referring to this one only.

I think the Special Group being referred to is the SFF one (since it was mentioned alongwith Para Cdo). SFF Special Group is quite active in J&K and is the only element in SFF which is staffed only by non-Tibetans.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Dec 2008 22:07

yes, I had forgotten about SG of SFF. SG specialises in CT, may be that includes rural HR too.
rohit should know better as he started this discussion !

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 03 Dec 2008 22:44

Ajay K wrote:Folks, from the Mumbai operations seems that NSG came out in flying colors compared with the Macros. Macros seem to be complianing the lack of intelligence and close quarter training among other things. We would have expected Macros to a better job rather than putting up a PR stunt in front of the country. In the photo thread all those MP-5 which are silenced are carried by Macros or NSGs?

By various accounts, there were twenty five MARCOS. Twenty five of them with over hostages running into hundreds in a hotel with over a thousand rooms. The number of NSGs were in the hundreds. Do the math as to which force would be more effective in an assault.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 03 Dec 2008 22:48

Ajay K wrote:Folks, from the Mumbai operations seems that NSG came out in flying colors compared with the Macros. Macros seem to be complianing the lack of intelligence and close quarter training among other things. We would have expected Macros to a better job rather than putting up a PR stunt in front of the country. In the photo thread all those MP-5 which are silenced are carried by Macros or NSGs?

Ajay K wrote:rohitvats, if NSG specilises in HR then who would be better trained to handle lets say hostages in a hijacked ship or oil rig ? Macros or NSG? Also why did the Macros venture into the Taj - clearing rooms and take early pictures even sustaining injuries rather than taking up perimeter security? I am not sure of the Macro involvement in Oberio though.

Ajay K, who the f**k are these "Macros"? And why were they involved in Taj? Was some IT-Vity conference going on in Taj? Geez....

Folks, please be sure about whom you want to answer in detail. Marcos got way too much publicity in the initial stages than desired.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Dec 2008 22:58

Rahul M: you give me more credit for than what i know. [:D].
Special Group:as some one has already stated, it is part of SFF but staffed solely by Indians. It has volunteers from IA with very many from PARA(SF) units. One of the least known units even within the IA.

I think a very valid point has been raised wrt the offensive capability of NSG outside the country. What we need is on the lines of Delta Force. Instead of having a completely seperate setup like Delta, it should not be difficult to raise an additional company+ worth of assault troops along with support infra. Many PARA(SF) guys regulary opt for NSG and hence the manpower is there. Also, till not long ago, the CO of the SAG was invariably a PARA(SF) guy. I do not know the situation now. There are dark rumours of Indian "Delta" but that is only there to it.

But another important thing to realize is that speacialized HR in a set environment is completely different from something like the operation in Entebbe airport by the Israelese or boarding a cruise liner in the high seas in hostile waters (somalia?). As I said earlier, all SF units train for urban CQB. Buit CQB to save lives versus "neutralization" of enemy will always be different.

MARCOS went in their to contain the situation and establish contact with the enemy. It was because they immideately engaged the piglets that they went on defensive. Otherwise they would have gone on their killing spree. Once NSG came in, they took over the role. Like I said earlier, CQB is one of the things MARCO/PARA(SF) guys do while NSG does only this. If the need of the hour had been for MARCOS/PARA(SF) guys to go in to eliminate the terrorist (numbers permmitting), I'm confident they would have taken the same time if not less and would have done the job.

As for who handles the situation in hinterland, it is a political call. As has been already mentioned, NSG is under home ministry while MARCOS/PARA(SF) is Defence Ministry. It actually brings about another important point wrt the need for a Special Operations Command which can manage and allocate the resources as per threat perception and corodinate the whole thing better.

kaangeya · Post by **kaangeya** » 03 Dec 2008 23:35

For deep in the countryside work a well trained and equipped constabulary can do the job. It took years to nab Veerappan and poor training and equipment being entirely the reason. While Karnataka fiddled for years and did nothing, Jaya in TN tried a little harder. In her 1st essay 1992-97 she set up the Special Security Group and armed a small detachment of handpicked Armed Police worked on a Coastal Security Force as well. In her 2nd stint from 2002 she worked on getting rid of Veerappan largely out of pique (because he had taken to taunting her in the press). It didn't take much and a small team of about 15 men was all that was required. IG Premkumar (who will now takeover charge of the National Police Academy) was the guy who finished off Veerappan. But then since then he has fallen out of favour with the DMK and as it happens all too often has been pushing files. I am not sure how good he still is, because if tyour last hit was 4 years back, you can't be very good now.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 04 Dec 2008 04:49

Kartman wrote:
Div wrote:Has anyone compiled a list of the Army units/regiments that participated in these operations?
For starters...
Grenadiers
Sikh(Regt or LI, not sure ??)
Others ??

Remember reading a report that 2-3 companies from different units (incl. Sikh) were rushed from elsewhere in MH...

Columns from the 18th Sikh, 17th Rajputana Rifles and Bombay Engineering Group were reported by morning of November 27th. Not sure about the relief units.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 04 Dec 2008 09:41

rohitvats wrote:
I think a very valid point has been raised wrt the offensive capability of NSG outside the country. What we need is on the lines of Delta Force. Instead of having a completely seperate setup like Delta, it should not be difficult to raise an additional company+ worth of assault troops along with support infra. Many PARA(SF) guys regulary opt for NSG and hence the manpower is there. Also, till not long ago, the CO of the SAG was invariably a PARA(SF) guy. I do not know the situation now. There are dark rumours of Indian "Delta" but that is only there to it.

As for who handles the situation in hinterland, it is a political call. As has been already mentioned, NSG is under home ministry while MARCOS/PARA(SF) is Defence Ministry. It actually brings about another important point wrt the need for a Special Operations Command which can manage and allocate the resources as per threat perception and corodinate the whole thing better.

Rohit, expanding the mandate of NSG to outside India is not good IMVHO. Given the scale of internal security challenges faced by India, NSG should be dedicated to internal security. Moreover, NSG has to be trained for infiltration/ exfiltration techniques - HALO/ HAHO, deep sea diving, etc. It will overlap with the capabilities of SF/ MARCOs.

However, we can have cross training and joint training between units for HR and CQB. Special Group from IA and QRT from MARCOs (being the cream of SF) can form the response team for Hostage situations and urban CT in hostile territory. Very much similar to US Army Delta and US Navy SEAL DevGru.

But I agree with you not to spawn them off as separate force. They should be within the current hierarchy.

Folks, please let me know your thoughts.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 04 Dec 2008 11:24

To be honest, I have not yet seen any benefits of having Delta as a separate force. A unified SOCOM is a must though given the large number of SF units we have. Cross-training is something which is also a must. Recall how during the MARCOS interview it was mentioned that MARCOS withdrew after NSG came in due to differences in operational tactics. Cross-training will atleast bring out the complementary tasks which can be assigned to each without getting in each others way. The reason NSG and MARCOS worked well together when MARCOS were called in for a 2nd time just testifies to the extremely high caliber of the personnel in both units but that cannot be used as an excuse not to do cross training....after all FUBAR situations always lurk around the corner.

SFF used to be tasked with HR (for example, during Blue Star). I hope after formation of NSG they did not just drop that capability from their arsenal. HR in hostile territory will involve specialized HRT like NSG and more military type SF like Para Cdo/MARCO to ensure security for actual HR op and infil/exfil and a lot of stuff in between including sabotage, blocking and rearguard actions.

JMT.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Dec 2008 12:09

KiranM:

I did not propose NSG being given the external threat neutralization/HRT task. It was the other way around. The PARA(SF) chaps already have all the required skills (HALO/HAHO, combat diving etc). You need to add only the HR part (of the NSG level). 200+ personnel along with support troops can be easily raised for this task.The cross training of SG and MARCOS to form a joint team is non starter. You need one cohesive force which trains as one entity for this task. (BTW I wouldn't go to extent of calling SG as cream of SF. it is one of the SF units)

RajaBose:

Both 1 PARA(SF) and SFF were used in Bluestar and it was not because of their HR skills. We were trying to take back the complex from the terrorists and you needed elite troops to storm a very heavily defended complex and do the needfull (the operaion was a disaster actually -very high casualties)

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 04 Dec 2008 12:17

rohitvats wrote: RajaBose:

Both 1 PARA(SF) and SFF were used in Bluestar and it was not because of their HR skills. We were trying to take back the complex from the terrorists and you needed elite troops to storm a very heavily defended complex and do the needfull (the operaion was a disaster actually -very high casualties)

rohitvats, they were the closest thing we had to HRTs back then. Actually we did not have any differentiation between different roles of elite troops so HR was almost considered equal-equal to storming Mandhol gun position. Bluestar cured that pretty quick albeit at a bloody cost.

If you recall, the SFF actually trained on a mock model of the Golden Temple complex before actual assault but due to lack of any proper training and operational doctrine they failed badly. Same deal with 1 Para Cdo...there was a big lack of CQB skills and tactics. Akal Takht became a killing ground for suicidal frontal assaults...tear gas grenades bounced back due to grills on windows and affected the troops instead of the terrorists etc.

What I meant was I am hoping the SFF actually upgraded their HR skills after BlueStar and did not just dump it due to formation and tasking of NSG.

Ajay K · Post by **Ajay K** » 04 Dec 2008 12:27

hnair
Ajay K, who the f**k are these "Macros"? And why were they involved in Taj? Was some IT-Vity conference going on in Taj? Geez....

Chetta, my mistake its Marcos.
Lessons from the Mumbai operation definitly is unified command. Remember some one mentioning that the very fact that there were press conferences by so many entities each giving their own version of the happenings.
Cross training and combined operations like the ones we saw in Mumbai is the need of the hour. Even the young Garuds can operate with NSG in case of a hostage situation in an airport. US Deltas operate along with Green brets and Rangers.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Dec 2008 13:06

RajaBose

Got the point. But I doubt that SFF(SG) would have done anything on the HR front or Para Cdo for that matter of fact (as a policy. The fact that many of them rotate through NSG is different matter). If you recall, NSG came into being only after the Bluestar disaster in 1984. So the baton passed to them.BTW, nice to see someone use the Para Cdo name. I personally like PARA COMMANDO better than PARA(SF). The commando patch on side arm looked better than the Special Forces patch. But that is me, a jingo and my wishes....

I have always believed that PA always has had much better appreciation of the SF capability as an institution and have used them better than us. The american influence may be is the prime reason.

KiranM · Post by **KiranM** » 04 Dec 2008 13:27

rohitvats wrote:KiranM:
I did not propose NSG being given the external threat neutralization/HRT task. It was the other way around. The PARA(SF) chaps already have all the required skills (HALO/HAHO, combat diving etc). You need to add only the HR part (of the NSG level). 200+ personnel along with support troops can be easily raised for this task.The cross training of SG and MARCOS to form a joint team is non starter. You need one cohesive force which trains as one entity for this task. (BTW I wouldn't go to extent of calling SG as cream of SF. it is one of the SF units)

My bad Rohit for thinking otherwise.

For bolded part:
I meant cross training for HR and urban CQB only. But Paras and Marcos will and should maintain their unique spheres of expertise like infil/ exfil techniques, etc.

What I am proposing is commonality of tactics and methodologies for overlapping scenarios. Like commonality of tactics and methodologies between NSG, Paras and Marcos for Urban HR scenario. Commonality between Paras and Marcos in jungle warfare. And so on and so forth.

For Para and Marcos, NSG run school will be one centre of excellence (HR and CQB) in addition to other schools they should attend (like CIJWS for jungle, etc.)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Dec 2008 15:35

Another special force is required porimarily for VIP/VVIP protection.A media report that 30% of the time the NSG was protecting our great leaders,250+ with VVIP status,some with even Z+ status,what's left for the likes of you and I? Politicos fear assassination and these forces could specialise in that field only,with prowess to combat bombs,bullets,etc.That would leave our regular NSGs total freedoom to combat major terror of the likes that we've just seen.

munna · Post by **munna** » 04 Dec 2008 17:09

Philip wrote:Another special force is required porimarily for VIP/VVIP protection.A media report that 30% of the time the NSG was protecting our great leaders,250+ with VVIP status,some with even Z+ status,what's left for the likes of you and I? Politicos fear assassination and these forces could specialise in that field only,with prowess to combat bombs,bullets,etc.That would leave our regular NSGs total freedoom to combat major terror of the likes that we've just seen.

Philip that wing of NSG charged with VIP protection has nothing to do with HR, CQB et al the are only responsible for VIP protection and cannot be expected to take that job as their mandate differs from the operations mentioned above.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Dec 2008 17:17

AFAIK it's also staffed exclusively with paramil personnel.

kaangeya · Post by **kaangeya** » 04 Dec 2008 19:20

I have always believed that PA always has had much better appreciation of the SF capability as an institution and have used them better than us.

Really?
Any notable operations? 1965? Siachen Bana Post? While no one is suggesting that the rank and file of the TSP armed forces consists of cowards (cutthroats may be) the leadership is fairly incompetent in formulating anything beyond a battalion level operation, and hasn't revisited doctrine in years. With the TSP forces being almost devoid of any large scale offensive capability SF by themselves aren't going to be doing much. And for the much vaunted training the piglet who got caught was squealing for his momma when he saw the humble policeman's lathi.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... d=97765988
The discussion yesterday at FBI Quantico
Law enforcement officials also said last week's attacks would have been difficult to fight because the terrorists were on the move, something known in law enforcement parlance as an "active shooter." Traditionally, when there is a shooter, police cordon off an area and then call in a S.W.A.T. team. But those traditional methods don't work if there are multiple shooters who don't stay in one place.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Dec 2008 19:29

hnair wrote:
Ajay K wrote:Folks, from the Mumbai operations seems that NSG came out in flying colors compared with the Macros. Macros seem to be complianing the lack of intelligence and close quarter training among other things. We would have expected Macros to a better job rather than putting up a PR stunt in front of the country. In the photo thread all those MP-5 which are silenced are carried by Macros or NSGs?

Ajay K wrote:rohitvats, if NSG specilises in HR then who would be better trained to handle lets say hostages in a hijacked ship or oil rig ? Macros or NSG? Also why did the Macros venture into the Taj - clearing rooms and take early pictures even sustaining injuries rather than taking up perimeter security? I am not sure of the Macro involvement in Oberio though.
Ajay K, who the f**k are these "Macros"? And why were they involved in Taj? Was some IT-Vity conference going on in Taj? Geez....

Folks, please be sure about whom you want to answer in detail. Marcos got way too much publicity in the initial stages than desired.

Marcos was located in Mumbai and was the best trained of all at that moment of time to be deployed till the NSG arrived.

Further, it is of no use to compare the organisations and their proficiency. Each has its own raison d'étre.

In an emergency, any organisation capable of some results should be employed.

An early action prevents the rot consolidating.

The NSG strength of around 7500 personnel is evenly divided between the Special Action Group (SAG) and the Special Rangers Group (SRG). The SAG is the offensive wing, with the members drawn from the Indian Army.

The SRG consists of members from other paramilitary forces such as the Border Security Force (BSF) and Central Reserve Police Force (CRPF) and State Police forces.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 04 Dec 2008 21:21

Was googling the net when I found this old picture of Late Major Udai Singh, SM

I see badges for paradrop qualified, NSG, Balidan, combat diver and one unidentified one.

MARCOS with Shipon in public demo:

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 04 Dec 2008 21:42

Just to add to Ray sir's post. SRG is the one tasked with protection of VVIPs and fat cats. HR, assaults etc. done by SAG. So VVIP protection tasks do not conflict with tasks of troops who do HR.

One thing I think is true is....if we did not have a unit like NSG with its unique structure and integrated skills, the Mumbai attack would have been infinitely worse with both hotels looking like our neighbour's Marriot. In hindsight I have a new found appreciation of NSG and their tactics and the comparatively clinical ops they ran. Sure you have armchair fan boys and myriad western 'experts' claiming...why it took so long and what not.

But when I sat down and put some thought into it this is what I realized (rebuttals welcome!):

0) They read the situation correctly and went in ASAP realizing that terrorists did not want to negotiate and were just killing anybody and everybody (MARCOS get a lot of credit for reporting this situation quickly after seeing it firsthand). Initial lack of maps was a complaint being aired by all....in such a situation time is of essence so you cant just wait around for maps while 100s more die. They did get the maps after initial entry but given the huge hotels they were assaulting that doesnt solve everything since maps dont tell you who is behind closed doors, do not always show recent structural additions (can only be done thru what the terrorists did...detailed recce before incident....but then NSG ranks dont include jyotishis!) and maps are of limited use when the floor plan gets drastically changed due to it being littered with bodies, equipment, fires, collapsed ceilings and what not.

1) They had to locate terrorists in heavy smoke, multiple fires and God knows what else kind of hazards with dead bodies, furniture, gunfire, grenades blocking their way in multiple complexes with 100s of identical rooms and lots of passageways, backdoors etc. All NVG, TIs and what-nots immediately begin to loose their advantage.

2) They rescued 100s of trapped guests and workers amongst all this and ensure that terrorists were not amongst them...that too most of them behind locked doors. They had to go room-by-room, try to open those doors, if locked they had to breach the doors with charges and then determine identity of guests (or if there were terrorists). Recall Maj. Unnikrishnan lost his life when one of the closed rooms had 2 terrorists with hostages and a hidden terrorist shot him from behind when he engaged the first terrorist.

3) Fighting highly trained (and superbly disciplined!!) terrorists who are trained in urban CQB tactics (I doubt any HRT has ever encountered such highly trained fighters).

3) Complete sweep room-by-room defusing not only live bombs, finding explosive caches but also defusing booby traps planted on dead bodies. Easily a task which can take days by itself!

All this was done in 3 locations within 60 hours with only 2 KIA, hundreds of hostages rescued and comparatively low structural damage in such a situation.

Considering all the above, I challenge anybody (incld. all those 'Delta/SAS is super-duper and would have finished this in 2 hours' fanboys) to tell me where else such an op of such magnitude has ever been executed in real-life with such precision and success by any other SF/HRT ever. The reason this op was so successful was due to NSG's unique structure of being an integrated unit with SAG(for actual HR, clearing areas, killing terrorists), SRG (for perimeter security/securing cleared sites) and EOD(for explosive disposal) and the fact they have numbers to handle multiple simultaneous ops. No other HR/SF unit anywhere else in the world right now has all the above capabilities (and in such an integrated structure) to do what the NSG did, in the circumstances it did. And lastly forget about police SWAT, this is way out of their league based on what I have seen of the ops they usually engage in (these terrorists were no drug dealers or crazies with guns....I dare say they were more highly trained in CQB than even most regular soldiers).

The major gripe is ofcourse the lack of airwing and the long response time. This is definitely a lesson learnt from this incident and has to be resolved asap. In terms of equipment, tactics, precision and efficiency, NSG has come out on the top bar none.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 04 Dec 2008 21:42

Aditya,

Udai Singh was KIA while he was with Special Group (SFF).

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Dec 2008 21:44

kaangeya,

My dear good sir, you seem to have missed my points. Lets do it point by point:

a) Organization of SF troops: As we speak PA has 4+Bns of SSG organized in 2 Brigades headed by a Maj.General. This general has direct line to the GHQ and is the adviser on special operations apart from centerally controlling all the assests. They are equipped with the best weaponary available.
Now compare this to India: Inspite of obvious need, we still do not have seperate SF regiment. The PARA(SF) still form part of the Parachute battalion. Another absurdity is that of the 10 PARA battalions, 7 are now SF. So IA should have PARA or PARA(SF) regiment? Because of this, of the 3 battalions making the 50(I) PARA Bde, one is an SF unit.Ever heard of such combination before? Neither is there any centeralized structure to nurture, train and employ these assets. There is no single point of contact/adviser on employing SF to the AHQ. It has taken donkey years for the modernization of SF units to be initiated and raise their number.

b)Operations: What about the 1965 operation or Bana Post? 1965 operation was a failure because of the faulty planning. But it was an indication of strategic potential of SF. The fact that they lost Bana post is an indication of what?
Please do not lose sight of woods for trees.

Added later: I've been able to id the following on Maj. Uday's person: Balidan badge on the his right pocket, Special Group badge above his left pocket and combat diver badge on top of it. There is no NSG badge that I see. Also, what is the badge on left breast pocket? TIA.

sum · Post by **sum** » 04 Dec 2008 21:53

Raja Bose wrote:Aditya,

Udai Singh was KIA while he was with Special Group (SFF).

Didnt know that bit. Assuming that he must have been with the SG of SFF since he is so "over-qualified" even for a SF guy with virtually every possible badge having been collected.

Truely a great loss...Amazing that we have so many unsung heroes(esp troops with as many qualifications as Maj.Udai) still battling away day and night to help us sleep tight.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Dec 2008 21:58

sum wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:Aditya,

Udai Singh was KIA while he was with Special Group (SFF).

Didnt know that bit. Assuming that he must have been with the SG of SFF since he is so "over-qualified" even for a SF guy with virtually every possible badge having been collected.

Truely a great loss...Amazing that we have so many unsung heroes(esp troops with as many qualifications as Maj.Udai) still battling away day and night to help us sleep tight.

SUM, you might want to check the webiste maintaine by his (Maj. Uday's ) family. It is treasure trove of snaps from his operation days.