Indian Response to Terrorism

vdas · Post by **vdas** » 03 Dec 2008 15:47

UPDATE 1-Rice urges Pakistan to act fast on Mumbai attacks

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsN ... 3320081203

"I have said that Pakistan needs to act with resolve and urgency and cooperate fully and transparently. That message has been delivered and will be delivered to Pakistan," Rice said. (Reporting by Sue Pleming, Editing by Bryson Hull)

is something intersting happening in new delhi ......

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 03 Dec 2008 15:55

As we are finding out now, Zardari has stated that those on the list will be tried in Pakistan and only after India provides a full-proof evidence dossier.

Rajeshji, i have already told before the response of the Pakis including Z when we put dust some old file and present an undoable list. What i said was asking Pakistan to do something doable and making it sound extremely reasonable. But that seems to go over. Obviously now GOI will be in stupor, shocked when there should be none. Even the US will be hardpressed now to pressure Pak on that list.

Now Z gets a chance to redeem himself a leader or pretend so, because in no way the GOI gave him anything doable in the first place. So possibly the only chance we had of getting the Civilian Govt in Pak engaged in cutting the gordian knot that the PA/ ISI holds on to it, is wasted.

I am sorry but none here have any military solution here that will be a winning formula for India. Neither does the US at the moment. See how gradually they have engaged inside FATA. How they have made Pakistan do doable things gradually and then controlled the security apparatus to an extent. They are also not thinking of an all out War in Pakistan, because sensible people know that tangible goals have to be achieved in military adventure. None will be achieved for India at this juncture.

The people have been inured thinking that 'terror has no religion', indeed it has. People have been told to parrot Kashmir as if solving that solves the Paki-India problems. No. The problem is Ghazwa E Hind is mandated on the Pakis by their doctrine. We have failed to tell / inform our people of the psyche of the enemy. To the extent the leaders too are clueless today.

I only see one solution now..give them a doable list: If they don't deliver: India should tell the world we are declaring the ISI as a terrorist organization. It's leaders, patrons, foot soldiers will be under attack in any way India deems fit. India should tell the US/ EU and the World it intends to do so if they do not hand over 2 or 3 key people either to an Indian or international tribunal within a limited time frame.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Dec 2008 15:56

why would you think porkis are amassing soldiers on the LoC!?!?! Either face the civil war or face the real war. Con-graze govt has no other option left.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 03 Dec 2008 16:02

harbans wrote: I only see one solution now..give them a doable list: If they don't deliver: India should tell the world we are declaring the ISI as a terrorist organization. It's leaders, patrons, foot soldiers will be under attack in any way India deems fit. India should tell the US/ EU and the World it intends to do so if they do not hand over 2 or 3 key people either to an Indian or international tribunal within a limited time frame.

Boss doable etc are games of perception; to me 20 names are doable -- to 10%i they are faff.

Give them any list does not matter; put Quaid e Asylum on the list -- any list will result in didly squat -- the question is only about the next step -- when where how and which GoI (this one cant wont)

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 03 Dec 2008 16:05

The only thing interesting that is happening at the moment is that Adm. Mullen is in Shit-stan.
The incorrigible optimistic in me is wet dreaming that he is delivering message to Pakis that Indian missiles are aimed at Army HQ...

vdas · Post by **vdas** » 03 Dec 2008 16:05

how about offering some money to Mr 10% .................i think that will get him motivated ...

[ break all diplomatic relations with pakistan ]

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 03 Dec 2008 16:11

harbans ji,

Doable is one thing, the willingness to do is another.

Zardari is a political animal, and when Pakistan is under pressure from sworn enemy India, he will naturally consolidate his power at home, by moving closer to the Army and ISI. Why would he fight India's war?

When Musharraf fell in line on 12th September 2001, he was forced to because he feared the Americans. He never feared the Indians as such. Indians are living in a cuckoo's world, if India thinks that Pakistan responds similarly to India as to USA. The Pakistani establishment nourishes on tensions with India, while it buckles on tensions with USA (as long as its anti-India assets are left alone).

The only thing India has in hand to keep the Pakistanis engaged is the peace process, which has hardly brought any dividends to Pakistan, or ever will. That is hardly a basis for securing cooperation, not even for extradition of a single Dawood.

USA got Zardari elected, so that USA would have somebody who would legitimate US war in FATA. This has been turned upside down now, after ISI has co-opted Zardari, as Zardari is now legitimizing Pakistani war on India in the Western media.

We cannot drive a wedge between lipstick and the fist. We should use other wedges in the Pushtun lands.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 03 Dec 2008 16:19

'Do-able' activity by GoP against jihadist terror is a bogey.

Like someone pointed out, even if they handover 1 scumbag over, that turd will sing so loud and spill so many beans inculpating and implicating every top neta, babu, jaj and jarnail for anti-India ops -past, present and future- in the land of the pure that it will become an untenable situation for both GoI and GoP. Hence adamant refusal to hand anyone over.

Also, when they could resist US pressure to allow access to AQK, India would be easier to fend off, I imagine.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 03 Dec 2008 16:26

To get out of the nuke standoff, India should just announce that it no longer adheres to "no first use" policy. Just this one statement will make everyone in the world community stand up and take notice of the situation.

If someone is trying to act like a maniac, show him that you can out do him

I see this as the only way out of the logjam.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Dec 2008 16:31

milindc wrote:To get out of the nuke standoff, India should just announce that it no longer adheres to "no first use" policy. Just this one statement will make everyone in the world community stand up and take notice of the situation.

If someone is trying to act like a maniac, show him that you can out do him

I see this as the only way out of the logjam.

we don't have to say it! now. it is already given to understand that is a temporary doctrine.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 03 Dec 2008 16:36

Doable manageble accountable all predicate on one factor ability from which you get able part.

In living oragnasims even primitive like Virus, Bacteria, certain learning takes place, and hence the resistance to anti viral drugs, or anti bacterial drugs.

Indian polity, armed forces, business leaders all reacted predictably during the first phase of Terror attacks outside of K, and thought K is far off, a few Hindus displaced can be absorbed in the slums of Delhi just like the way people of Tibet were accomodated.

But alas the terror attacks grew bolder and wider accross the nation, now we have a nation that has Brave people in ranks poorly equipped but ready for action, but then the leadership has no plans or policy to handle the situation. ( My respect for JLN has gone up several notches as he did send soldiers with canvas chappals to Ladakh at least).

I have prepared a PPT slide showing the actors and context of this crisis, I will post it soon. Could someone kindly inidcate to me how to post a PPT.

Wilson John article coupled with Adm Arun Prakash article is a great revelation how rotten things are.

We have miles to go before we get a grip and its a very hard road to travel...

vdas · Post by **vdas** » 03 Dec 2008 16:37

The CCS also approved the Ministry's proposal to acquire 80 MI-17 helicopters for Indian Air Force at the earliest. These choppers are used for transporting troops and carry all supplies to the high altitude forward areas of Jammu and Kashmir.

Does this mean something in the current context ?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Dec 2008 16:43

http://www.hindu.com/2008/12/03/stories ... 861300.htm
“We are looking at creating a proper infrastructure, where all the information we get is exchanged. We had prepared the proposal seven to eight years earlier. We are now pushing it up once again to bring about greater synergy among different forces,” he said.

I would say, its mandatory to install IFF on boats and ships coming to our land. Every vessels talk to each other in 5km range at least to exchange information electronically, and logs the data in a federated system, that could be fed into other systems as well.

IFF messaging sensors can be installed at all important places., all cities and vicinity. The device could be very cheap if mass produced. Jobs for a few as well.

===
Another thought.. NSG must have civilian wing as well.. where it digitizes all major important building maps specific to their ops., especially places of exists, escape routes, conduits, etc.

Another Job opportunity here for a few

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 03 Dec 2008 16:45

I believe it is time to support Afghanistan in claiming the lands beyond the Durand Line. The Indian influence should be enough for the British to accept that the Durand Line was to expire after 100 years, and the Pushtun Lands in Pakistan were to return to Afghanistan.

The partition of Afghanistan into Pushtunistan and North-Afghanistan can be done later.

This would give USA immediate legal sanction to continue their policy in FATA.

If there is anything that can be a game-changer, this can certainly be it. India can only benefit.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 03 Dec 2008 16:45

vdas wrote:The CCS also approved the Ministry's proposal to acquire 80 MI-17 helicopters for Indian Air Force at the earliest. These choppers are used for transporting troops and carry all supplies to the high altitude forward areas of Jammu and Kashmir.

Does this mean something in the current context ?

Yes it does and a smart move if you ask me at last.

Some one in the cabinet realized that this govermand will not last or get re elected, so make the kickbacks right now while the cabinet and this terror episode lasts. Hence finalize the order.
This from my experience being a vendor to MOD tenders.

( remember the ordering of coffins as soon as Kargil started, remember the ordering Bofors shell from open market at high prices from black market sources as SG brokers broke the bofors deal, whats that Italian Mafia guy who was allowed to go to singapore after visiting ND every week end while CBI was running around with arrest warrant)

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 03 Dec 2008 16:46

Rice is in Dilli. Now is the time to seize the moment and turn the great game on its head by co-opting India into the game rather than weave the game around keeping yindia outta CA.

For that unkil should logically ally with us in denuking TSP and using our land route via united J&K to Af'stan.

This logic, difficult to sell to cold warrior establishment anyway will be even more difficult to push through what with 2 lame duck sarkars at the helm in both Dilli and DC.A factor that no doubt figured in the calculations of the mumbai terror planners.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 03 Dec 2008 16:49

SaiK wrote:
milindc wrote:To get out of the nuke standoff, India should just announce that it no longer adheres to "no first use" policy. Just this one statement will make everyone in the world community stand up and take notice of the situation.

If someone is trying to act like a maniac, show him that you can out do him

I see this as the only way out of the logjam.
we don't have to say it! now. it is already given to understand that is a temporary doctrine.

I don't think the Pakis understand that. Hence at every opportunity they say that it will rapidly escalate into nuke war. All the world analysts say that the conventional war will deteriorate into nuke war if Pakis think that it is losing ground. We should turn that assumption on its head.
What we need to explicitly state to the world is that we will not wait for Pakis to fire the first missile at any Indian city. We need to define the rules of limited engagement.
What we need to tell world is that while we bitch slap Pakis by sending aircraft to bomb whoever we want to bomb, Pakis can't launch a single missile.
We need to communicate to every world leader that we are ready to pull trigger even if we suspect that Pakis MIGHT launch a missile.

Earlier in 1965, Pakis assumed that we will not attack across international border. That assumption was completely destroyed. Need to do same by explicitly stating that we will not abide by "no first use" promise.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 03 Dec 2008 16:50

Its a joke to claim we dont have plans for the Taj!. Every buildings plan exists with every municpal corporation and with every management of big hotel ,or public place must have its place approved for errection with a plan.
So to say people did not have a blue print of Taj Hotel is not Ok , yes if it is TAJMAHAL of Agra, then you have to go to Borders book depot and look up Indian Architecture books.

The problem is India you can short circuit anything and everything with money.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 03 Dec 2008 16:56

milindc,

you are absolutely right.

Nuclear weapons is for playing a psychological-strategic game. No-First-Use is for those who want to lose that game.

Nuclear Weapons are meant for intimidation. Pakistan has been playing this game far better than India. Say anything, and Pakis started talking about tensions among nuclear-weapon states and using threats. We should play this game far better.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Dec 2008 16:58

Just say, we are reworking on the doctrine.. and sound the alarm.

==

On the building records and plans, we need to digitize them., and be available for other services org in the govt. and military. of course, can't help those scums who would do anything and go any length to make money. perhaps, have a lufthansa model - check the person who checks the person who checks the documents...

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 03 Dec 2008 17:00

We also need to have an Electronic Security Infrastructure, where access to all the digitized data is possible only through proper access control and permissions.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 03 Dec 2008 17:03

come up with some format, encrypted, in such a manner that only govt. authorized (hardware chip) devices can read and display the pics.. else, its all a bunch encrypted crap!

yes we can!

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 03 Dec 2008 17:06

Massive rally at Mumbai. Folks are literally angry, they are asking why Afzal is not hanged.
Channels showing folks at other cities as well.

The comment of a Muslim worker from Mumbai
"Yeh tho aisi baat ho gayi ki koi hamare ghar aakar hamare baap ko thapad mara, aur hum dekte hi rahe gaye"

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 03 Dec 2008 17:10

Watch TIMESNOW...

its gives glimpse of what India thinks

vdas · Post by **vdas** » 03 Dec 2008 17:18

Brazil to sell 100 missiles to Pakistan

Brazilian authorities gave approval for the sale of 100 missiles to Pakistan, which can be used in air-to-surface attacks on radar tracking installations, Defence Minister Nelson Jobim said.

The MAR-1 medium-range missiles made by the Brazilian firm Mectron are tactical anti-radiation weapons whose existence was kept under wraps for many years, according to Jane's Information Group.

Jobim called them "very effective ways to monitor" areas flown by war planes, and said the deal with Pakistan, originally signed in April 2008, was worth 85 million euros ($108 million).

He dismissed suggestions that the transaction might be questioned in light of last week's Islamist extremist massacre perpetrated in Mumbai, India, which some Indian officials suspected was launched from within Pakistan.

"Brazil negotiates with Pakistan, not with Pakistani terrorists," he said.

"To cancel this deal would be to attribute terrorist activities to the Pakistani government," he added.

I think everybody wants to "behti ganga mein haath dhoo lo " ...... something sinister is brewing ...

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 03 Dec 2008 17:20

India should just board the vessel transporting these missiles to Pakistan, and India should also protest, that how can the international community, aka IMF bailout Pakistan, while Pakistan is spending money buying such items.

Funny how IMF approved the loan on November 25th and the attacks were carried out on November 26th.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 03 Dec 2008 17:22

It is time to act, otherwise, God will not forgive India.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 03 Dec 2008 17:24

vdas wrote: "Brazil negotiates with Pakistan, not with Pakistani terrorists," he said.

"To cancel this deal would be to attribute terrorist activities to the Pakistani government," he added..

It is critical that at least we start unequivocally saying that Pakistan == terror state. Just like US says Iran == terror state. I know just saying it does no good, but at least that is the way forward instead of us giving them legitimacy.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 03 Dec 2008 17:28

Wow thats some optimism, to board a vessel in high seas and trigger a act of war against Brazil and TSP.

I dont know whats that gives such ideas, on reflection I was like that 10 years ago.

kshirin · Post by **kshirin** » 03 Dec 2008 17:30

Posted here -can I post the same message in two forums?

Has anyone seen that the Western press is bashing a possible return to power of the BJP (if I relocate those articles will post them, alongwith odious pieces on Kashmir - insufferable vapid ass - I tried to read through even 1 book of his and couldn't get past the platitudes, verisimilitudes and drivel -Pankaj Mishra in IHT today -nauseating when your own people are used against you) . I was wondering why then I figured - is it because they know they will not be able to manipulate the BJP?
Also, UK has recognised Tibet as part of China and China is being dragged into Afghanistan by the GB Great Buffoon Gordon Brown, I always thought he was overrated. When China may actually suffer more than India from the current economic crisis (is that why they sponsored the attack the same week the Tibetan melee was on at Dharamsala?), why is everyone running to it as the possible economic saviour?
We desperately need a strong internal policy and a strong international policy to project our real strengths and take on our enemies.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 03 Dec 2008 17:32

http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/12/ ... llack.html

By the time dawn broke, the commandos had successfully secured our corridor. A young commando led out the people packed into Anjali's room. When one woman asked whether it was safe to leave, the commando replied: "Don't worry, you have nothing to fear. The first bullets have to go through me."

Do we think is there anyone more qualified than these people who cares more about us than their lives to RULE US.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 03 Dec 2008 17:40

John Snow wrote:Wow thats some optimism, to board a vessel in high seas and trigger a act of war against Brazil and TSP.

I dont know whats that gives such ideas, on reflection I was like that 10 years ago.

John Snow,

Go through my earlier posts, if you have time.

That proposal is based on some previous work of getting a UN Resolution curtailing Pakistan's sovereignty rights and putting certain sanctions against those organizations, Pakistani Army and ISI, until the terrorist infrastructure has not been eliminated to the full satisfaction of a UNSC mandated commission monitoring terrorist infrastructure in Pakistan. Probably UN should have accepted Zardari's request to investigate Benazir's death. That mandate could then have been extended.

However even if such a UN Resolution has not been passed, India can warn other countries that India would put up a partial quarantine on military supplies to Pakistan, considering that Pakistan has declared war on India.

We can however enter into discussion some other time, when your propensity at the moment to lash out at other BRFites and sarcasm has subsided.

samuel.chandra · Post by **samuel.chandra** » 03 Dec 2008 17:54

This is partly happening also because TSP gets away with terror. The local abduls feels proud and also learn that when push comes to shove, we back down. You cannot fault them for being proud because they cannot feel proud about Indian inaction. Noone respects a weak entity. Once we give TSP a bloody nose, the local abduls will get the message.

Victor wrote:What are we talking about hitting pakistan when we have allowed the jehadis to wipe out local Hindus from a part of India? We need to fight pakis in India first, by forcibly resettling the Kashmir Valley with Indians and changing the demographics. That will plant a stake in the heart of pakistan and tell them everything they need to know about what is coming. Create another state in the middle of the Valley if need be and arm it to the teeth like a kibbutz. Make serious noises about pakis getting out of PoK too or else.

Forget about hitting pakistan before we wipe out pakistan from Indian territory. Our leaders have been neutralized by stupidity, fear and greed. General Basmati will be in Dilli tomorrow and we will throw up at the snivelling, grovelling netas making asses of themselves and embarassing the nation instead of reading out the riot act in one voice.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 03 Dec 2008 17:56

milindc,

Since you seem to be at location in Mumbai, could you kindly take pics and share online of these rallies? Short Video clips for youtube, perhaps?

Reason I ask is I am totally tired of dhimmedia filters/ stranglehold on what we can watch and cannot. They buried the Jammu protests and the valley riots, the Asom protests by indigenous assamese against the BD demographic warfare against them and in the meantime give airtime to Paki FM, Dardari and project POVs of rotten panelists like Rahul Bose and Shilpa Shetty.

Would dearly like to know that aam aadmi has broken free from dhimmedia projections of what is and what should be.

TIA!

samuel.chandra · Post by **samuel.chandra** » 03 Dec 2008 18:01

BR Rakshaks in Mumbai, suparn verma meeting in front of Taj:

http://www.bollywoodhungama.com/news/20 ... index.html

BR Rakshaks in US, there is a meeting happening in "Royal Alberts Palace". Dec 7th, 12:30 pm.

Lets make noise so GOI understands, we won't back down.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 03 Dec 2008 18:05

samuel.chandra wrote:This is partly happening also because TSP gets away with terror. The local abduls feels proud and also learn that when push comes to shove, we back down. You cannot fault them for being proud because they cannot feel proud about Indian inaction. Noone respects a weak entity. Once we give TSP a bloody nose, the local abduls will get the message.

Absolutely. And the MoFos, along with their 5th column in India are celebrating dancing to Bollywood tunes. Not to mention the 'don't ask don't tell' elites in the west and in India, who, while ostensibly 'condemning' the attack are neverthless having a sense of satisfaction watching uppity India (which in their minds means uppity Hindus) bleed.

This kind of slime ball behavior is common among individuals, but the fact that a big country like TSP can get away playing this game with an even bigger country India shows the abject weakness in India's ability to hit back. All this 'show me the evidence' is such a cart load of horse manure. Zardari is now claiming that the pig in our custody is not from TSP.

Needless to say, unless we make TSP pay, this charade will continue.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 03 Dec 2008 18:09

vsudhir wrote:milindc,

Since you seem to be at location in Mumbai, could you kindly take pics and share online of these rallies? Short Video clips for youtube, perhaps?

TIA!

How I wish I was there. I'm watching various channels and commenting on them. Seems like 'Times Now' and 'Headlines Today' are trying to break free.
In fact, 'Headlines Today' organized the rallies at various cities.
Shiv Aroor (He is reporting for 'Headlines Today') organized a pledge today at 'Gateway of India'

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 03 Dec 2008 18:19

Guys:

I don't mean to sound provocative. But isn't this the time for the Indian forces: army, navy, and air force chiefs to tell the political leadership that enough is enough, and we need to do something instead of hiding behind this civilian control crap? The UPA eunuchs, cowards, and traitors have their eye on other issues of concern to them, but armed forces chief must come forward and present a plan to the govt. And the plan must be well thought out, not just feeding 1000s of commandos head on to the blood-thirst Paki army; that would only be a stale mate inviting US/UK intervention.

Is it only a matter of time that one of the UPA eunuchs will say 'peace process is irrreversible'; after all, they have already said TSP is also a victim onlee and no military action.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 03 Dec 2008 18:20

shiv wrote:As long as Indian elite worry about Paki nukes we will never respond. Pakis understand this and read the undercurrent of fear.

We have to hit Pakistan and be ready for nuclear war and make sure that Pakistanis ready themselves for nuclear retaliation.

Forget "denuking" Pakistan. Waste of time. The best denuking is to make them use it and finish off all Pakis cities.

Interesting thing is that if we have this attitude of fearlessness, nuclear war may actually not happen. I aggree with Shiv. This attitude is a must for us. It is far better to die in war, than to cower in fear.

animesharma · Post by **animesharma** » 03 Dec 2008 18:21

Kanson wrote:http://www.forbes.com/opinions/2008/12/ ... llack.html

By the time dawn broke, the commandos had successfully secured our corridor. A young commando led out the people packed into Anjali's room. When one woman asked whether it was safe to leave, the commando replied: "Don't worry, you have nothing to fear. The first bullets have to go through me."
Do we think is there anyone more qualified than these people who cares more about us than their lives to RULE US.

Are you suggesting what i think you are suggesting.
I am with you.We need more discipline to fight terror.