Terror Attacks in Mumbai - IV

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 03 Dec 2008 20:27

Acharya wrote:
John Snow wrote:We at BRF were pointing out the CIA doings of color revolutions, we forgot that in Indian right under our butt there was a color revolution in full strength and thriving. See the way we internalize the attacks as if its our fault.
This question was asked in PBS newshour - Why is the anger not against Pakistan but against the political class. Bharka Dutt is being questioned on the response of the people. So opinion making is being directed and manufactured by the fourth estate. They have tried to deflect the target and opinions away from Congress.

The reason is frustration. Instead of attacking Pak the peace process the Aman setus and still people in India get killed. Whom to blame for something done by the politicos. The people never asked for it except by the NDTV varieties.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 03 Dec 2008 20:33

Raju wrote:
now i am thinking that the mango variety of conspiracy theorists are right when they call certain terrorist events as 'false flag attacks'. Probably mumbai comes in one of them.

today NDTV was questioning protesting janta (same rally milindc is talking about) shouting 'Pakistan hai hai' in mumbai whether they would be willing to give up some of their 'freedoms'. Why do they ask such funny 'internationalist' questions ?

Do you need a slave population ? Is this attack an attempt to enslave populations into submissive sheep ?

I frankly miss J. N. Dixt at this juncture .. he was the only successful experiment as NSA and the only nationalist I knew.

Raju,

Have you considered the possibility that this could also be the handiwork of candle makers, sellers and white cloth merchants so that they will do a roaring business?

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 03 Dec 2008 20:34

We are going to war. The signs are clear. Next step will be ceasing steps taken during the peace process. Either Pakis must hand over the 20 keedas or must face the consequences. And we have got a partner as well. The one that has to be satisfied with drone attacks was waiting for an opportunity. Now when their own men get killed, they will surely act from the west. The U.S will never get such a golden opportunity to finish terrorism and they will not waste it. Doomsday for the Pakis.

sugriva · Post by **sugriva** » 03 Dec 2008 20:35

Most colour revolutions in Eastern Europe were "pro-democracy". This is the first time we are having "anti-democracy" protests anywhere in the world. Does anyone else also think it odd that most of the US's non NATO allies, with the exclusion of Japan, have never been democracies.

Manu · Post by **Manu** » 03 Dec 2008 20:36

And JN Dixit was hardly a perfect NSA. Don't want to speak of the Dead. But in one BR Review JN Dixit and PVN Rao were on the cover together (after their deaths). No comparison.

Yoda was much better, by all accounts.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 03 Dec 2008 20:39

Only solution here is to be 'tyar bar tyar' and greatest vigilance on our part. Pakistan is also probably being comforted that India will not be 'allowed' to respond and one fine morning they wake up to mushroom cloud and blame well put on India. We need to be ultra careful of being manipulated and managed and being led down the garden path.

Tanaji, Pakistan is well-involved, but someone else is also involved.

>> And JN Dixit was hardly a perfect NSA.

You mean lookswise ?
If he was here, this wouldn't have been allowed to happen.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Dec 2008 20:41

uddu wrote:
Acharya wrote: This question was asked in PBS newshour - Why is the anger not against Pakistan but against the political class. Bharka Dutt is being questioned on the response of the people. So opinion making is being directed and manufactured by the fourth estate. They have tried to deflect the target and opinions away from Congress.
The reason is frustration. Instead of attacking Pak the peace process the Aman setus and still people in India get killed. Whom to blame for something done by the politicos. The people never asked for it except by the NDTV varieties.

Current governing political party has to be blamed both at the center and the state. But the people are not really asking for change yet. We have to reach that stage.

cbelwal · Post by **cbelwal** » 03 Dec 2008 20:57

In the interview the Marcos mentioned that they were very surprised with the level of fire discipline showed by the invaders. The invaders were trying to conserve their fire pwoer for the perceived long fight ahead. They definately received SF training, and the ammunition with them was adequate.

amit wrote:I think this is one aspect of the whole incident that's being ignored. While the pigs did come from the sea without anyone knowing, it's virtually impossible for them to fight for so long - and if I'm not mistaken it's not 40 hours, it's more like 60 hours - just with ammo from their backpacks.

bart · Post by **bart** » 03 Dec 2008 20:59

vsudhir wrote:
Hariprasad wrote:Watching TimesNow
Extremely emotional people beautifully self-flagellating. Some of them are asking why should we point to Pakistan. We should look inside, we should have war against terrorism and not against nations be it Pukistan or Bangladesh whatever that means, blame our politicians, police, coast guard and so on.
Aha.

Seems like Times Now's illustrious parentage (The Benett Coleman Co and Reuters) have pulled strings and are now on 400% compensate mode for the nationalistic tenor it had started to acquire duirng the attacks.

Predictable, sadly. Was too good to last as long as it did.

I wouldn't put it down to Times NOW. A lot of people are that gullible and stupid. I saw a poster stating 'We want peace, not terrorism'.

I was like...WTF? Telling a terrorist you want peace will make him stop? Does a terrorist even care about what you have to say or is he going to take time out to listen to you?

manju · Post by **manju** » 03 Dec 2008 21:03

• Several brave men/women both security personally and civilians made the ultimate sacrifice during the Mumbai attacks. As often happens I was day dreaming or rather evening dreaming while listening to he loud but quite melodies live music from the Kannada Rajyotsava celebrations.
• The Mumbai tragedy have kept my mind busy these days and was thinking what if one of the team members of the security where to say “I am one of the 200 (don’t recall exact number of forces that went in) odd persons fighting the terrorists and I back out or play it safe and comes up with myriad reasons for not performing the task at hand
o there are 199 others who can take on the terrorists …
o Why should I die for others?
o How will I benefit?
o Who will take care of my family?
o Even if I don’t fight others will do their job and we will anyway win over the terrorists
o I am the only son and that is a fairly good reason for me to back out and hide behind others…etc
o If I fight and die the bloody politicians and bureaucrats will not mend their ways and things will not change anyway..
o why I should I die for the mistakes of these people?

If you look at these response in such a life and death situation objectively, at least to my mind they seem to be normal human responses and most of them can be put across as ethical also…

Fortunately, none of that happened and our soldiers, many police men and even ordinary citizens showed extraordinary courage and saved several lives and few lost their lives in doing so. May their souls RIP. It sounds romantic to talk about these sacrifices. But did they have to die?

Several analyses have been done and the unanimous conclusion has been that these deaths could have been prevented- those of civilians and the security personal. For example, it is now know that there was decent intelligence information to indicate that the terror attacks were being planned and relevant people where either not informed or if informed they did not act accordingly..

It was no life and death situation for these people to do the right thing. They did not have been cornered into a tense situation as the security person who fought the terrorist. nor did they have to sacrifice their lives to do the right thing at that moment. I have feeling that these people probably felt that they could not make a difference…
- if I don’t some body will take care of it
- I know what is to be done but it is not in my job description to do so
- I have informed the relevant information so my job is over and probably never bothered to follow up
- If I do the right thing I may be taken to task by my superiors and politicians for being too smart…and may be snubbed ..

Just my 2 cents…

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 03 Dec 2008 21:10

bart wrote:
vsudhir wrote: Aha.

Seems like Times Now's illustrious parentage (The Benett Coleman Co and Reuters) have pulled strings and are now on 400% compensate mode for the nationalistic tenor it had started to acquire duirng the attacks.

Predictable, sadly. Was too good to last as long as it did.
I wouldn't put it down to Times NOW. A lot of people are that gullible and stupid. I saw a poster stating 'We want peace, not terrorism'.

I was like...WTF? Telling a terrorist you want peace will make him stop? Does a terrorist even care about what you have to say or is he going to take time out to listen to you?

My take is that the channels were pro-actively picking out the HFL type protesters and their associated crap..
You could also see the 'Take down Paki' type posters as well. The background noise included 'Vande Mataram' and 'Pakistan hai hai'...

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 03 Dec 2008 21:13

A disgraced ex-minister gets a helicopter ride from his hometown to the capital just to attend a party meeting while soldiers fighting get a bus ride:

R R Patil finds himself 'homeless'

Mumbai A far cry from his sprawling residence at Malabar Hill, former Deputy CM and Home Minister R R Patil found himself virtually homeless on his return to Mumbai on Tuesday. Patil had, after submitting his resignation over the Mumbai blasts, vacated his official residence and left for his hometown Anjani in Sangli district.
Patil, who arrived by helicopter for a meeting of the NCP legislative party at the NCP office in Nariman Point, had applied for accommodation as an ordinary MLA at the Manora MLA hostel, a stone’s throw from Mantralaya.

Patil’s close associate and Minority Commission Chairperson Nasim Siddiqui, NCP MLA from Haveli in Pune Vilas Lande, NCP MLC Jitendra Awhad, NCP leader from Sangli Iliyas Naikwadi and Karad MLA and state co- operative sugar factories federation chairman Balasaheb Patil were among the people who visited him before he flew back to Sangli. Patil’s erstwhile aides from his deputy chief ministerial days were also in attendance with one of the aides revealing that they had sought a day’s leave to be with Patil. Sanjay Patil told The Indian Express that the “value of his room would increase” if a senior leader like R R Patil used it.

amdavadi · Post by **amdavadi** » 03 Dec 2008 21:14

Deshmukh goes as he was ask to resign

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 03 Dec 2008 21:17

he is a genius .. he will say after he was 'asked to go', he stepped down.

bart · Post by **bart** » 03 Dec 2008 21:18

uddu wrote:
RajeshA wrote:Condi: "we need to let the facts lead where they may ..."

Is USA open-minded this time?
Seems the U.S.A wants to hit the Pakis real hard. They are getting a partner to take out Pak without any trouble. It is going to be U.S and U.K from Afghanistan and Indian from the east. Pakis in real trouble.

Or could it be that Basmati was just talking tough since her govt is anyway on their way out and they have nothing to lose since the fallout will be Obama and Hillary's problem to deal with?

Mabye im too cynical after watching US behaviour from 1993 to Kargil to 2003 and everything in between.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 03 Dec 2008 21:22

MN Kumar wrote:A disgraced ex-minister gets a helicopter ride from his hometown to the capital just to attend a party meeting while soldiers fighting get a bus ride:

RR Patil might have said things which he should not have and had to go , but as a Home Minister he did few good things , most important he closed the dance bar here , from memory i think he was one of the better Home Minister Mumbai has seen since long.

I would like to see him home minister of Maharashtra once again and continue the good work he has done , he is not good at dealing with media and when probed gets nervous , but he is a simple person

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 03 Dec 2008 21:28

Parthasarthy on Arban Goswami's NewsHour show says "Believe me the squeeze this time will be different than 2001" to two pakis on the show.
The paki clowns mumbled something on solidarity

Some comments on TimesNow 'Gateway of India' coverage..

Bloody country like BD who we gave independence, sends Huji
Lets have War and finish it once for all
Every one knows where Dawood bungalow is in Karachi.
Even layman like me knows terrorist training camps in PoK
Bloody, lets have a dictator like Musharraf than Man Mohan Singh. Did you see him talk, couldn't even understand what he was saying

Armed forces need 10% more pay than bloody babus
Just 2 terms for politicians and 60 age limit, that will eliminate the chamchagiri and dynastic politics

All this accompanied by 'Bharat Mata Ki Jai' in background

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 03 Dec 2008 21:30

>> All this accompanied by 'Bharat Mata Ki Jai' in background

+ galli galli mein shor hain, Pakistan chor hain .. in Mumbai

who would have thought ?

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Dec 2008 21:31

Couple of Pakis getting some real @$$ whopping by Arnab and G.Parthasarty(GP)...

I love the way GP coolly delivers a jhapad to the Pakis for everything they bleat out....The Paki journo, Amir Ghauri(??) started going off into how 911 was used by China,Russia, India ,Britain to suppress their minorities

once he found the jhapads of GP too much to handle....

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 03 Dec 2008 21:31

Austin wrote:
MN Kumar wrote:A disgraced ex-minister gets a helicopter ride from his hometown to the capital just to attend a party meeting while soldiers fighting get a bus ride:
RR Patil might have said things which he should not have and had to go , but as a Home Minister he did few good things , most important he closed the dance bar here , from memory i think he was one of the better Home Minister Mumbai has seen since long.

I would like to see him home minister of Maharashtra once again and continue the good work he has done , he is not good at dealing with media and when probed gets nervous , but he is a simple person

However incompetent he is, the guy is honest and has class to immediately vacate his official residence and seek a room in MLA hostel .... give credit where it is due

btw, did Ball-less wonder vacate his official HM residence.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Dec 2008 21:31

bart wrote:
uddu wrote: Seems the U.S.A wants to hit the Pakis real hard. They are getting a partner to take out Pak without any trouble. It is going to be U.S and U.K from Afghanistan and Indian from the east. Pakis in real trouble.

Or could it be that Basmati was just talking tough since her govt is anyway on their way out and they have nothing to lose since the fallout will be Obama and Hillary's problem to deal with?

Mabye im too cynical after watching US behaviour from 1993 to Kargil to 2003 and everything in between.

Did any western newspaper talk about LeT in detail. Did they discuss various terrorist groups inside Pakistan in detail. You dont see that. After Al Quida exposure there is no further details. That should give an indication ow far they are willing to go. There is 40 years of deep engagement with the Pak military and Pak elite for this to change

bart · Post by **bart** » 03 Dec 2008 21:33

Austin wrote:
MN Kumar wrote:A disgraced ex-minister gets a helicopter ride from his hometown to the capital just to attend a party meeting while soldiers fighting get a bus ride:
RR Patil might have said things which he should not have and had to go , but as a Home Minister he did few good things , most important he closed the dance bar here , from memory i think he was one of the better Home Minister Mumbai has seen since long

Last time too, while the Mumbai police had dozens of people working on closing down dance bars while the terrorists walked in, blew up several train bogies and walked out. I don't think that closing down dance bars is an achievement.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Dec 2008 21:36

sum wrote:Couple of Pakis getting some real @$$ whopping by Arnab and G.Parthasarty(GP)...

I love the way GP coolly delivers a jhapad to the Pakis for everything they bleat out....The Paki journo, Amir Ghauri(??) started going off into how 911 was used by China,Russia, India ,Britain to suppress their minorities once he found the jhapads of GP too much to handle....

I asked the same questions to GP in person. He is impressive in person.

bart · Post by **bart** » 03 Dec 2008 21:37

And just when I thought we had gone almost a whole week without a politician regurgitating the standard 'we will give a fitting response' phrase, here it comes, finally:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 788189.cms

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 03 Dec 2008 21:41

Acharya wrote:
bart wrote: Or could it be that Basmati was just talking tough since her govt is anyway on their way out and they have nothing to lose since the fallout will be Obama and Hillary's problem to deal with?

Mabye im too cynical after watching US behaviour from 1993 to Kargil to 2003 and everything in between.
Did any western newspaper talk about LeT in detail. Did they discuss various terrorist groups inside Pakistan in detail. You dont see that. After Al Quida exposure there is no further details. That should give an indication ow far they are willing to go. There is 40 years of deep engagement with the Pak military and Pak elite for this to change

Basmati was very explicit on who she supported...
"Non-actors is still matter of your responsibility if it is from your territory"
This is very direct response to the 'non-state' actor spin from Pakis.
The body language between Pranab and Basmati was very positive, lets hope for best
Ultimately, its our responsibility to clean shit-stan and the stench emanating from it.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 03 Dec 2008 21:41

GP has spent years in Pakistan and knows them inside out and can pre-empt their response.

the Pakistanis have obviously been caught napping, they have been confronted with a new situation and their old answers are not working for them anymore.

Raja Ram · Post by **Raja Ram** » 03 Dec 2008 21:41

There is a danger here that the genuine anger that is coming out can be misdirected and a few self goals scored.

1. The outpouring of emotions can be hijacked by the DIE elite who will then obfuscate the real issue - Pakistan is the source of terror to something wishy washy and pansy and deflect the anger against the politicians. All anger will be then directed at them instead of Pakistan and they will go scot free

2. The DIE elite and their media bootleggers may dictate the agenda rather than national interest. They will demand for populist action and inane things rather than the destruction of Pakistani terror machine.

This is what I fear most. I really hope and pray that I am wrong.

I don't want any diminishing of the focus and attention on Pakistan, we have the proof, we have the means, and we do not have to care about any other country now. We have to use this window of opportunity to hasten the only peace mantra that is correct, concise and well thought out - GIVE PEACE A CHANCE, DESTROY PAKISTAN.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 03 Dec 2008 21:42

And she spoke that in hindi. Feel pity for the people who had to stand that harassment

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 03 Dec 2008 21:42

I am building a spreadsheet of victims and the areas they were killed.

Can anyone tell me who were the cops who were martyred at Cama hospital where ACP Date was injured (I have the hospital guard names but not the cops).

Plus who were the other three cops killed when the ATS Qualis was ambushed?

It appears that almost all of the police casualities can be attributed to the little pig and his dead friend. This is very tragic.

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 03 Dec 2008 21:45

Where was Karkare killed ?

@ Cama Hospital, Trident or CST ?

arun · Post by **arun** » 03 Dec 2008 21:46

Thomas L Friedman in the New York Times :

When Pakistanis and other Muslims are willing to take to the streets, even suffer death, to protest an insulting cartoon published in Denmark, is it fair to ask: Who in the Muslim world, who in Pakistan, is ready to take to the streets to protest the mass murders of real people, not cartoon characters, right next door in Mumbai?

The article is available in full here :

Calling All Pakistanis

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 03 Dec 2008 21:46

Raju wrote:Where was Karkare killed ?

@ Cama Hospital, Trident or CST ?

The three cops killed in Quallis were Shri Karkare, Shri Salaskar, and Shri Kamte

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 03 Dec 2008 21:48

milindc wrote:
Raju wrote:Where was Karkare killed ?

@ Cama Hospital, Trident or CST ?
The three cops killed in Quallis were Shri Karkare, Shri Salaskar, and Shri Kamte

There were another three more who were killed in the qualis other than these three. While the list of the deceased is there on the mumbai police website, there is no information as to who died where

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Dec 2008 21:49

1. The outpouring of emotions can be hijacked by the DIE elite who will then obfuscate the real issue - Pakistan is the source of terror to something wishy washy and pansy and deflect the anger against the politicians. All anger will be then directed at them instead of Pakistan and they will go scot free

2. The DIE elite and their media bootleggers may dictate the agenda rather than national interest. They will demand for populist action and inane things rather than the destruction of Pakistani terror machine.

Think this is what even NDTV is trying to do(by the looks of it)?

Could Vishnu present some "evidence"(ala the Pakis) to prove that they are actually gunning for the pakis and not just protecting the Kangress by dragging all politicos and Malegaon into every sentence uttered,esp by Ms.Burkha?

Btw: Arnab asked the same question which Friedman refers to(about Hindus attacking Pak and killing their religious priest)to the Paki senator and got some mumbles in reply.

cbelwal · Post by **cbelwal** » 03 Dec 2008 21:52

So closing a dance bar has now become an achivement ?? What about all the things he didnt achieve ? Getting proper BP vests for the people working under him, for example.

And he is an expert on something we didnt know.

Jihadi world angry with India, says al-Qaeda expert

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/jihadi-world ... 655-3.html

".. Many in the Arab world, especially states like Saudi Arabia and UAE think India has switched its allegiance away from the Arab world. There was a time India was firmly behind the idea of Palestine as a free country. Today India is seen as moving closer to Israel in business ties as well as importing weapons from Israel.

But apart from the Israel angle, there has been anger in the Jihadi world over India’s support to the Karzai government in Afghanistan.

.."

Austin wrote: RR Patil might have said things which he should not have and had to go , but as a Home Minister he did few good things , most important he closed the dance bar here , from memory i think he was one of the better Home Minister Mumbai has seen since long.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 03 Dec 2008 21:56

For everybody predicting with glee that Pakistan's time is up becoz of Condi's tough talk and Baba Obama's platitudes....never forget the following about the Islamic state of Pakistan:

(1) They have no concept of truth or lying - whatever suits them at the moment is truth to them. History has shown that US is more than willing to accept their version of truth at face value.

(2) They are masters-of-survival-by-guile - Self-preservation through deception is something they practice like no other rogue state.

(3) Nothing is more important to them than saving their hide - They have no concept of honour, self-respect, dignity or any values one associates with humans. They will promise to bring you the moon if it buys them 2 more months of survival. Then they will spend those 2 months to spin new schemes on how to buy time for 2 more months...and so on.

(4) They have nothing to lose except their life(which is the only thing they cling on to dearly) - So all joint-talks/investigations/CBMs/chai-biskoot sessions etc. are useless. Action is the only thing they understand for it puts their lives at risk....rest is empty talk.

(5) Suicide is only a bluff they play - They are not above blackmailing other nations with various types of suicide (Nukes, moving troops away from Afghanistan). But given their love for their own hides, that is all bluff....so India needs to call that bluff which till now it never has.

Now all together..."Give Peace a chance,......".

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 03 Dec 2008 21:57

Karkare, Salaskar, Kamte and 4 constables were ambushed on the way to Cama hospital to visit injured Sadanand Date. I have always suspected that this was not a random lucky hit but some locals were monitoring police frequencies and tipped off the terrorists.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 03 Dec 2008 22:05

Gober Khan taunting NDTV anchor. Your Army and Marine commandos were incompetent and it took them 60 hours. Your Intelligence chief was killed by terrorists or may be by your own men.

Man, I hope all the soldiers are listening this. Every soldier should hear this...
I hope his a*hole is brought to India and made to give BJs to every prisoner in India.
And broadcast live to Pakis

HariC · Post by **HariC** » 03 Dec 2008 22:06

Raja Bose wrote:Karkare, Salaskar, Kamte and 4 constables were ambushed on the way to Cama hospital to visit injured Sadanand Date. I have always suspected that this was not a random lucky hit but some locals were monitoring police frequencies and tipped off the terrorists.

Not just that - it was typical police style of transportation. Kamte and Salaskar in the front two seats. Karkare being the head had the whole second row to him. And the four constables crammed in the rear section (if people know the qualis - they will realise). The four in the rear would be facing inward (As in any jeep) and there would not be any space to swing around a weapon.

I have once seen a para commando convoy on the streets of delhi right after rajivs assasination. These guys were sitting in a jeep - facing outwards - guns on the ready.

pran · Post by **pran** » 03 Dec 2008 22:09

Karkare had a meeting with RRP who assured him some relief a hour or so before getting killed. Now do the math.