Indian Response to Terrorism

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Dec 2008 08:54

Chakkuny why dont you go for streaming video on a website. You wont find a producer as most are Dawood Ibrahim's minions or Sharad Pawar's goons. Or the other scalawag Thackeray's.

chakkunny · Post by **chakkunny** » 04 Dec 2008 09:22

As a way around geeting air time, online streaming is an alternative. But there are a couple of key obstacles:
1. I do not personally know such esteemed individuals who can be on the panel. But here I guess, forumites can help to impress on people who can spend some time. I know we have people with distinguished resumes on the forum itself.
2. We have a limited audience. NRI power is no good at the local hustings.
3. Revenue is required to enable the winner to raise a sizeable amount. The kind of amount to run for an election in multiple constituencies. While the CEC regulations are very less compared to what may be actually spent, the airtime should make up for the coverage. But this is still sizeable money. Perhaps this will come too if the show catches on.

Nevertheless, there is a small probability that this can be the beginning of something even without an established producer. I shall mull more about it.

Thanks Ramana

neelkamal · Post by **neelkamal** » 04 Dec 2008 09:29

I just saw the news on Times Now - The deccan mujahideen had sent the second email (this time it is traced to Saudi Arabia through Russia) about more attacks in chennai, B'lore and Delhi.

"Govt believes it is just a front for LET."
But the reporter actually said "so don't blame the LET for everything" !!!
I dont know if was quoting somebody else, which he probably was. But it did shock me, mid way into my breakfast.
There was another news but I don't want to post it here in case terrorists are also watching/reading.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Dec 2008 09:35

neelkamal wrote:I just saw the news on Times Now - The deccan mujahideen had sent the second email (this time it is traced to Saudi Arabia through Russia) about more attacks in chennai, B'lore and Delhi.

"Govt believes it is just a front for LET."
But the reporter actually said "so don't blame the LET for everything" !!!

I dont know if was quoting somebody else, which he probably was. But it did shock me, mid way into my breakfast.
There was another news but I don't want to post it here in case terrorists are also watching/reading.

I think the GoI should put the whole armed forces on alert. Its possible that terrorists can infiltrate the LOC and hijack planes in North India and fly them into those cities. Tehy can even do that from the sea route too. So better alert the three wings. Nothing is off the table now. At same time alert the sensitive states too for interanl attacks.

neelkamal · Post by **neelkamal** » 04 Dec 2008 09:40

Here is a list of all cities/towns in Azad Kahsmir. I think they have included names of villages also. Can't believe there are so many of them in POK. Atleast I hope I have understood it correctly. can't be for the whole of PAK since Lahore etc are not included.

http://www.tageo.com/index-e-pk-v-06.htm

if you click on any of the city you get a satellite view of it,
click on it again, you get google map with directions
cool huh?!

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 04 Dec 2008 09:41

ramana wrote:
neelkamal wrote:I just saw the news on Times Now - The deccan mujahideen had sent the second email (this time it is traced to Saudi Arabia through Russia) about more attacks in chennai, B'lore and Delhi.

"Govt believes it is just a front for LET."
But the reporter actually said "so don't blame the LET for everything" !!!

I dont know if was quoting somebody else, which he probably was. But it did shock me, mid way into my breakfast.
There was another news but I don't want to post it here in case terrorists are also watching/reading.
I think the GoI should put the whole armed forces on alert. Its possible that terrorists can infiltrate the LOC and hijack planes in North India and fly them into those cities. Tehy can even do that from the sea route too. So better alert the three wings. Nothing is off the table now. At same time alert the sensitive states too for interanl attacks.

There were also reports alledgedly from the captured terrorist, that although the group that attacked Mumbai was a group of 10, there were about 50, who received training in POK. So, the above report should be taken seriously. We need to up the ante urgently. This government is hoping that this will wither away in a few months but Indian citizens will pay the price, I fear.

neelkamal · Post by **neelkamal** » 04 Dec 2008 09:44

Also some speculation that some terrorists simply dissolved into the mumbai crowd and vanished. so they could also attack anytime.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Dec 2008 09:47

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNW94h2lNNg

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Dec 2008 10:07

Chakbunny, TOI did something similar and id'ed two finalists - one from ahmedabad and one from blr.
but neither seems inclined to take politics.

http://www.lead.timesofindia.com/tnc.htm

chakkunny · Post by **chakkunny** » 04 Dec 2008 10:31

This is new to me...Thanks for the heads up.

My take would be that the ToI show did not have an objective towards meaningful change. Change is expensive. Winning that show would mean zilch in the real world. What I'm proposing is a cheap way to give birth to a decent political alternative in the real world.

neelkamal · Post by **neelkamal** » 04 Dec 2008 10:47

Guys it gets worse!

Gujrat terror alert by Antony. Gujrat on high alert, coastal waters. sleeper cells might get active
Kutch, Jamnagar and other ports on high alert.
Gujrat ATS preparing status report on coastal security.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Dec 2008 10:56

Good the IN can be on alert. BTW Today is Navy Day.Maybe we can see a repeat of the event that it celebrates.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Dec 2008 11:07

I keep reading and hearing that 10 terrorists alone held Mumbai to ransom in groups of two!

It is interesting to note that 10 men alone i.e. two at Taj and two at Trident held out for so long against all the forces applied against them!

And then you have so many versions of those who were actually caught up in the carnage who claim that the terrorists were practically everywhere.

It somehow makes me uncomfortable to reconcile.

In so far as intelligence and actionable intelligence is concerned, there is a vast difference. There are enough of intelligence that pours in like '500 terrorists training in X and will be attacking targets in Kashmir soon'. What action does this type of intelligence expect?

neelkamal · Post by **neelkamal** » 04 Dec 2008 11:12

UN chief calls up Zardari !!!!
news just now

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 04 Dec 2008 11:18

neelkamal wrote:UN chief calls up Zardari !!!!
news just now

UN front - an international front can go now inside Pakistan and take up the camps.

Also Stephan Cohan says that an international group of countries have to form a coalition including China and KSA and take care of Pakistan before it become the nightmare situation

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Dec 2008 11:20

We must maintain the façade of business as usual.

Inder Malhotra, Inder Gujral and other candlelight warriors should be allowed their eminent selves to glow in the light of the candles.

Arundhuti Roy should be encouraged an intimate hug of the shrivelled Geelani.

The Setalvad woman should be allowed to crusade against Modi unabated and wastefully while her friends across the border ignite one or two more towns in India as a lark!

And within this business as usual environment, India should encourage subnationalism in Pakistan, which is there in any case since they detest the Pak Punjabi dominance and the looting the resources of Pakistan at large for Pak Punjab. We must also encourage the secessionists in Baluchistan, Northern Areas, Sind and NWFP and Encourage the Shia Sunni divide.

If Pakistan plays dirty, what prevents us from teaching them a lesson? High faluting Gandhian philosophies?

Who cares what the world wants. We must act unilaterally. Not like a wild bull in a china shop, but as clever little fellows, while the world wonders!

If India burns, can Pakistan be far behind?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Dec 2008 11:21

the karnataka coast, next to the jihadi north KT belt has been in
a flap since last week.
there is karwar which the navy secures but not much security to
control that coast against jihadi movements.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 04 Dec 2008 11:23

Given the resources, the coast of India, both East and West are nude.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 04 Dec 2008 11:26

if we account for sleeper cells, how best can we answer these questions,

1) what will their masters want them to do if we don't go for war as they want/anticipate?

2) what will they do if hit their masters/leadership dead?

3) all attacks have a backdrop of not fully connecting the dots/specks of intelligence that flows in before and once it happens everything falls in place.

4) can we jam/tap these satellites for all calls? intelligence cooperation? can we triangulate the phones' location?

we may have time to react to plans that originate after they regroup not for ones that are 'pending'

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 04 Dec 2008 11:30

CNN-IBN quoting Paki sources says that there are rumours in Shit-stan about India's strike on Muride near Lahore.

Rice in Isloo .. already chatted with 10% and now will meet Groper. News Conf in about 30 minutes
Mullen still in shit-stan

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Dec 2008 11:41

vasu_ray wrote:if we account for sleeper cells, how best can we answer these questions,

1) what will their masters want them to do if we don't go for war as they want/anticipate?

2) what will they do if hit their masters/leadership dead?

3) all attacks have a backdrop of not fully connecting the dots/specks of intelligence that flows in before and once it happens everything falls in place.

4) can we jam/tap these satellites for all calls? intelligence cooperation? can we triangulate the phones' location?

we may have time to react to plans that originate after they regroup not for ones that are 'pending'

if India goes to war, even the naxals will chop them down. So dont worry too much. Focus on big picture. And listen to RayC.

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 04 Dec 2008 11:43

From Capt. Bharat Verma:

The obvious battlefield is Pakistan

The British nearly gave up war in Afghanistan recently and instead wanted dialogue with Al Qaeda [Images]. Washington termed it defeatist and subsequently London [Images] rescinded the suggestion. The stalemate in the war on terrorism continued.
The breed of Inherently Helpless Indians tells me repeatedly that "even the West led by America could not smash the terrorists in Afghanistan and Iraq -- how can a country like India win?"

Untrue. With the right strategy this war can be won decisively.

Frankly, Al Qaeda and the Taliban [Images] combine cannot win the war. They don't have the means. The jihad groups have no naval or air forces. No missile force either. They do have a slackly held guerrilla army that boasts of weapons with limited range and some quantities of explosives. Their satellite phones and other modest wireless systems are susceptible to interception, consequently a big constraint. These outfits do not boast of surveillance and intelligence gathering capabilities through satellites or UAVs.

In practical terms they have no reach. Al Qaeda, the Taliban or similar groups can only cause damage or destruction to contact targets and its immediate periphery which is woefully inadequate to topple a regime -- a prerequisite for victory. Kabul remains with Karzai, though at a cost, while Washington, Paris, and London continue to conduct international business unaffected.

Yet, Al Qaeda and the Taliban for years have managed to create a deadlock against the best equipped and trained forces of the first world on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border. Why?

On multiple counts the war waged by the Bush administration was borne out of unsound principles. First, fighting on two fronts simultaneously created division of resources between Iraq and Afghanistan. It resulted in shortage of the necessary numbers of boots on ground, so vital while fighting a guerrilla force in the Afghan-Pakistan region.

Second, if the alliances that forge preponderance in the international affairs are broken, victory will elude. The Western alliance, which is the statement of the American might, was rebuffed in Iraq. Washington in its unilateral stubbornness opened the second front, throwing to winds the sane strategic advice of its partners. The invasion of Iraq, if ever necessary, should have taken place after consolidation of the Afghanistan-Pakistan front. The victory in the Afghanistan-Pakistan area in any case would be sufficient to put other players in the region on notice.

Washington disregarded its Western alliance partners in invading Iraq, considered an unjust war by rest of the world. It in effect united the various jihad outfits in different parts of the world. Most of these groups that lacked potency till then, appeared formidable by coming together. Thus, in the last eight years, the sum of parts of the radical Islam lent an appearance of more than the total. {I think he is wrong on this}

Third, the extraordinary rise in the oil prices not only boosted the old adversary but also added new rivals soaked in the wealth of petro-dollars. Also billions of dollars wasted in the Iraq war is significantly responsible for the current economic misery.

Last, the biggest folly was to trust Islamabad [Images]. At the time of invasion of Iraq, I cautioned the former American ambassador in a gathering at New Delhi [Images] that the "United States and its allies cannot win in Afghanistan since they have the lock (Afghanistan) but cannot unlock it as they do not have the key (Pakistan) under their control." {This should be point #1 and not just as an Indian viewpoint. Give peace on earth a chance...}

Even today many with the Cold War mindset in the international media wrongly advocate that Kashmir should be resolved -- implying India should resolve it in favour of Pakistan. I would say it is a misplaced approach with counter-productive ramifications. With Asia becoming more and more authoritarian, with Communist China rapidly expanding its influence, with Islamic fundamentalists all over and rearing their heads in Malaysia, with Maoists in control of Kathmandu, and with military dictatorship emerging in Bangladesh, the only option is to expand the influence of the democracies.
Instead of trying to sap New Delhi's will by such proposals, the other democracies should stand by to support spread of democratic set up in Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Handing over Kashmir on the platter to Pakistan will definitely result in another Talibanised and brutal adversary in the neighborhood. Such a step is neither in the interest of multi-cultural India or other democracies.
It is time for Washington to shift gears to win the war!

A few years ago, a Democrat when told in a private conversation that "America cannot win on both fronts," wanted to know the way out. I said: "Since the objective is to decisively defeat radical Islam and not Islamic nations or populations, the Iraq front should be wound up rapidly despite the likely disintegration. Quickly redeploy and concentrate these surplus forces in the Afghanistan-Pakistan region. That is the laboratory of radical Islam and its destruction is central to winning this war."

If the epicentre is busted, the various parts in temporary and weak unity are bound to lose teeth and fall apart. This will reduce terrorism to a localised law and order problem.

The next terrorist attack against the United States or the European Union will be planned and executed in all likelihood from the Afghanistan-Pakistan. region.

Similarly, if ever a nuclear attack through a dirty bomb becomes a reality in the West, it will be handiwork of Pakistan. The West needs to look at the radicalisation inside the Pakistan army [Images] and the ISI and work out methods to defang them. For a decisive victory, America will require the unqualified support of its alliance partners. India's support in addition will play a critical role too. { It should be drilled into every ones brains that ISI is part of the PA}
It is also time for New Delhi to rapidly shift gears. Pacifist philosophies may be good for the individual's soul, but are suicidal for nation's security. New Delhi should learn to fight its own wars instead of expecting others to do its dirty work.

To win the war is more crucial for us than the West as the very survival of the Union of India depends on it. While the United States is geographically insulated and located in safe haven, India is not. Pakistan and Bangladesh export radical Islam to India in an effort to destabilise it. China funds movements like Gorkhaland and instigates its proxies. The borders are kept on the boil between China and its proxies while Bangladesh and Pakistan continue to implode India through terrorist acts with impunity. India remains under siege.

New Delhi needs to work out its long-term option with clarity, objectivity and decisiveness in view of the extremely hostile 14,000 kilometres of borders. The other critical element is the substantial Islamic population in India that certain external forces want radicalised to create civil strife. Honestly speaking, given the internal and external security imperatives, non-governance is not an option for New Delhi.

It is often said that nations do not have permanent friends, only permanent interests. In reality, all nations are adversarial to each other. The degree may vary. If national interests demand synergy, they may combine resources for mutual benefit to an optimum period. The synergy to destabilise India by covert means is evident in the collusion between authoritarian regimes of China, Pakistan and Bangladesh. Radical Islam wants to establish a Caliphate while Beijing [Images] is determined to tie down New Delhi to ensure its unrivalled top dog status in Asia.

Since they are neighbours, India needs to engage them as constructively as possible, even as they remain inimical to India's interests in many ways. However, they can be dealt from a position of strength alone. This is only possible if we acquire the requisite diplomatic, economic and military prowess.

Therefore, grand strategy dictates that since multiple adversaries on our borders are in collusion with each other and pose a combined threat, we should form an alliance with lesser adversary who believes in democracy and are not our neighbours. Today with radical Islam threatening all democracies, there is implicit synergy and commonality of purpose between the West and us that can help each other in variety of ways. Thus, India can gain a larger say in international affairs and develop sufficient economic and military clout to deal confidently with the near abroad.

But in creating alliances, New Delhi must watch its flanks. The recent campaign in the media to jettison Kashmir appears to be orchestrated by external powers to weaken the Union. These games will always be played as the existing hierarchy never wants too many crowding the high table.

In the past eight years, poor generalship in Washington, Brussels and New Delhi is responsible for the resurgence of Al Qaeda and Taliban. However, this war is decisively winnable if the battlefield is correctly identified. The obvious battlefield is Pakistan. It is time, democracies face this simple reality.
Bharat Verma is the Editor, Indian Defence Review

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Dec 2008 11:43

there was a all-party meeting in Pak yesterday, chaired by geelani.
a mix of jarnails, maulas with a scowl and long beards, some more urbane islampasand politicians of the qazi hussein ahmed stripe....

all agreed that evil yindu will be resisted tooth and nail and pak stands united to protect its terrorists.

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 04 Dec 2008 11:45

Can they also stand united and in the same place for some time please.

Raja Ram · Post by **Raja Ram** » 04 Dec 2008 11:50

The usual cry in pakistan when they are shit scared of India is Islam khatrey main hain, Pakistan Islam ka talwar hain, Pakistan paindabad. Watch out for these, when the government and army starts talking along these lines, then there is something up and they are dead scared.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 04 Dec 2008 12:42

To form the world opinion, please forward this link to as many as possible under the title
"Pakistan Army proclaims that Taliban Jihadis are Patriots"

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=18709

Make sure you attach a printed pdf document as well.

satya · Post by **satya** » 04 Dec 2008 12:52

Nightwatch's Brief

The Times of India reported today that the United States has “organized for retaliatory internationally backed strikes” by India against terrorist camps in Pakistan, if the Pakistani government does not first carry out measures to take them down. On Tuesday, India’s Foreign Secretary Shiv Shankar Menon met with various high-level U.S. government officials in Washington, discussing India’s position on Pakistan's culpability and the Mumbai attacks.

The Times report states that retaliatory strikes, outlined by U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice at a meeting in New Delhi, would rebuff Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari's statement that non-Pakistani actors were to blame for the Mumbai attacks. Rice said Pakistan has a ''special responsibility'' and needs to act ''urgently.''

These statements obliquely support the NightWatch hypothesis that India intends to strike at against Pakistani terrorists reasonably soon. However, no other news service has reported such a message. In talking to the press, Secretary Rice made one vague statement that might alter Indian planning.

According to FOX news, Secretary Rice said that there are indications of al Qaida involvement in the Mumbai attacks. If that proves to be accurate, it represents an epiphany that would shake up the Indian intelligence and security establishments’ understanding of the threat against India.

Pakistan: Pakistani Taliban leaders have increased anti-India rhetoric amid spiking tensions between the two countries and offered their men to fight alongside Pakistani military forces if armed conflict occurs on the eastern frontier, Zee News reported Dec. 3. A Taliban leader said Indian military action against Pakistan would help the Taliban because it would relieve pressure in Pakistan's Swat valley, although the Taliban's first priority would remain fighting India. Taliban leader Maulvi Nazeer said he would raise 15,000 fighters to help Pakistan fight India and send 500 suicide bombers to India to "cause havoc."

Pakistani officials are acting as if the Mumbai attacks are an Indian problem for which Pakistan can offer assistance, although the mounting corpus of evidence shows that the attacks originated in Pakistan, in every sense of the term. Accepting the Indian evidence at face value of Pakistani connections to the attacks, which is a reasonable assumption under the circumstances, the Pakistani offers of cooperation in investigating the crimes are tantamount to accomplices to a crime offering to help the victims. They are insolent and outrageous.

The Mumbai attacks signify a colossal failure of Indian security, but the ineptitude of Pakistani security is a close second. Pakistani security authorities bear a high degree of culpability for failure in every aspect of counter-terrorism

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 04 Dec 2008 13:54

vera_k wrote:
RajeshA wrote:No, because this will allow a future BJP Government to buy a car on easy installments.
Who says we don't have 100 cars already?

Besides going to the UN is against long standing policy per Shimla agreement.

I think, you have just taken "UN Resolution" as cue, and started making general statements, without going into the specifics of the proposed UN Resolution.

What has "Shimla Agreement"/"Kashmir/"UN Resolutions on Kashmir" to do with a "UN Resolution allowing Monitoring and Fighting Terrorist Infrastructure in whole Pakistan"?

Also "car" == "military options available to India, which the current Indian Government are willing to use and which are to some extent palatable to the world powers".

Also "rent car" == "institutionalized international terrorism fighting support for terrorism emanating from Pakistan"

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 04 Dec 2008 14:09

Basmati is saying in Islamabad, "the talks in New Delhi were not about military strikes, but rather about international cooperation (read USA, UK, India, Pakistan) to fight terrorism in Pakistan"

Also

India to answer Mumbai attacks with talk not troops by Simon Denyer: Reuters India

India will not respond to attacks in Mumbai by sending troops to the border with Pakistan, but will instead mobilise global pressure for its neighbour to act decisively against Islamist militants, analysts say.

The military strategy was tried in 2001 and 2002 after an attack on India's parliament, but achieved little.

The crucial difference this time is that India is dealing with a civilian, democratically elected government in Islamabad -- a reasonably friendly government which does not have full control over a much more hostile, hawkish military establishment.

Military confrontation, however tempting as Indian elections loom ever closer, would only empower the hawks across the border.

"It is simply not on the table," Siddharth Varadarajan, strategic affairs editor of the Hindu newspaper said.

"If India were to take any of the military measures some armchair analysts want, that would almost certainly play into the hands of the military establishment in Pakistan."

It would also have played into the hands of the Taliban and al Qaeda in Afghanistan, by forcing Pakistan to withdraw troops from its tribal areas and western border.

It has even been suggested this was one possible motive behind the attacks. If so, that is not a trap India will fall into, analysts say.

Instead, the visit of U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to New Delhi on Wednesday marks the first step in a more diplomatic and finessed response to the attacks.

It is likely to be a slow process, but the only real option.

"Pakistan needs to act with resolve and urgency and cooperate fully and transparently," Rice said on Wednesday. "That message has been delivered and will be delivered to Pakistan."

It all depends on the level of strategic talks, we had with USA.

If the level was to just 'put global pressure' and nothing further, then everything went as feared here at BRF. On the other hand, if this was the public face of some 'fundamental understanding and strategy to solve the Pakistani Problem', then there is still some hope.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 04 Dec 2008 14:11

RajeshA wrote:What has "Shimla Agreement"/"Kashmir/"UN Resolutions on Kashmir" to do with a "UN Resolution allowing Monitoring and Fighting Terrorist Infrastructure in whole Pakistan"?

India wants to deal with Pakistan bilaterally and this was agreed to in the Simla agreement at our behest.

UN resolutions have to ultimately be implemented by someone. From Pakistan's perspective having India fight terrorist infrastructure within its borders under any pretext is no different than war with India. So we are back to square one with no progress made on the problem.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 04 Dec 2008 14:13

1. What will be the ramifications of declaring the ISI a terrorist organization?

2. What will be the ramifications of breaking all diplomatic relations with Pakistan?

Of the above, i think that 1 will have tremendous ramifications and we can only imagine/ speculate what they will be. India should go for it.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Dec 2008 14:28

One important fact,on some media reports,that 30% of the NSG spend their time safeguarding our dear political elite with about 250+ VVIPs,some with a new Z+ status!.Simply Amazing.In most countries,"VVIP" status is only given to the head of state and the PM.The rest are merely VIPs.The TV feature also showed/said that some of them were being used for domestic duties!I saw recently a CM at an airport accompanied with about 50 various security vehicles,"strike forces",etc.,his own car had four Tata Safaris with guards/commandos hanging on the outsides like monkeys,plus the usual ambulance behind! Why our NSG forces should be used for "protection" beats me.A new PSF (personal/politico security force) of a different kind of police commando should be created,as the main threats to a politico/VIP are assassination theats from bomb blasts and bullets.They do not need special forces commandos who are supposed to go into battle to combat airline haijackers and attacks as we saw last week.

http://epaper.newindpress.com/NE/NE/200 ... ndex.shtml

Blame the rulers, not democracy
S Gurumurthy

This time, Page 3 celebrities are the protestors. This class had never imagined that terror would touch them. In the past they had seen terror blowing to pieces commuters on trains and buses, and tearing down ordinary men in crowded markets Politicians are the easiest targets of the elite. But in this country they are the only ones who are open to scrutiny — as to what they say or do. No one can scrutinise, say, the judges

A FALL-OUT of the jihadi attack on Mumbai is huge outrage. While this anger is understandable given the way the present ruling politicians have handled the issue of national security, what is intriguing is the hate campaign is directed against politicians as a class. Most English TV channels are ceaselessly and systematically feeding this hate. ‘Page 3’ personalities, particularly in Mumbai, star in this campaign. Most Indians would not even know the meaning of ‘Page 3’ personalities. They are the partying type, mostly found in restaurants in five-star hotels. They are called so because, a decade earlier, their pictures and their parties appeared on page three of newspapers. Now they are all over the media, with most media sometimes celebrating them on the front page.
When in the past terror attacks took place and hundreds died, there was public outcry against terror. But the media did not ceaselessly telecast or print their outrage as they do now. What is the difference this time? This time, Page 3 celebrities are the protestors. This class had never imagined that terror would touch them. In the past they had seen terror blowing to pieces commuters on trains and buses, and tearing down ordinary men and women in crowded vegetable and general markets. Most in this class do not travel by trains or buses or go to crowded markets. Now the abode of this class, the star hotels, is hit, it is terribly angry. How is this class positioned in our polity? It talks about democracy but does not vote. It talks against corruption, but would not fight it. It talks of high values but follows a lifestyle that hardly supports those values. Now they are the ones anchoring the national debate on the right and wrong of politicians. Examine how dangerous this is.

Politicians are the product of elections. And elections do not yield quality leadership. For example, a Ramakrishna Paramahamsa could not have found a Vivekananda in a Narendra through ballots from his co-disciples. It cannot be that democracy is good, but elections are bad, as there can be no democracy without elections. Elected politicians are the backbone of democracy. If they manipulate the people, it is the duty of the elite to educate the people to be vigilant. How many Page 3 characters have taken to educating the people to make right choices? So their anger against politicians is because their fun and frolic have been disturbed. If they feel so outraged now what were they doing when train after train and market after market were being targeted by terrorists in which ordinary people were maimed and killed?

Now come to their targets, the politicians. Politicians are the easiest targets of the elite. But in this country they are the only ones who are open to scrutiny — as to what they say or do. No one can scrutinise, say, the judges. The scrutiniser will go to jail. No one in his senses can talk against the media. Only politicians are easy subjects for cartoons or hate. But this time around, the campaign that is on after the Mumbai terror strike is not just the eruption of pent-up apathy towards the politicians. It is something more. The Mumbai terror has exposed the ruling parties in the centre and at the state, like no other act of terror has. The reason is self-evident. It has touched the very class — the chatterati — that is the backbone of the secular class. The anger of this class cannot be directed against the secular political groups that run the country today as that would shift balance of advantage to the un-secular opposition. So the present rulers need to be protected. Result, the anger is intentionally directed against the political class as a whole.

Thus, this campaign against the political class as a whole conceals the real intent behind it, namely to protect the secular governments at the centre and in the state which had intelligence about the sea-based terror attack that was coming on Mumbai and on Mumbai hotels specifically, but did nothing to act, whatever the reason for their inaction. The governments have been so callous about national security that over 1,000 innocents have been killed in Mumbai by terror strikes in 2008 alone. Seeing the entire political class as hate objects protects the ruling parties against public retribution. The present rulers had repealed the anti-terror law in India when the whole democratic world was enacting such laws against terrorism. Terror attacks multiplied under the present government. So blaming the entire political spectrum bails out the culprits ruling India today. The Page 3 icons and the media seem to be on this joint enterprise to wash the sins of the ruling party and its leadership by targeting the political class as a whole.

Take this process to its logical conclusion. The hate against the ruling parties is being universalised thus as anger against the entire political class. Compare this anger with how ordinary people raised patriotic slogans ‘Vande Mataram’ and ‘Bharat Mata Ki Jai’ when the NSG and Army commandos successfully vanquished the terrorists and again when the funeral of the slain ATS, NSG and Army fighters was taking place. Admiration for the army coupled with hate for political class as a whole is dangerous to democracy . In a democracy, it is necessary to let the public anger correct the ruling party that is at fault. The rulers must pay for their fault. They should not be allowed to escape punishment for their mistakes by joining the crowd of hated politicians. There is a lesson for the opposition also; that is if they come to power, they would be treated no differently. If the political class is hated and the army admired, legitimacy will be with the army and not with the political leadership. This is what made the army in Pakistan ambitious, and it became the ruler. Yet now the Pakistan army is as hated as politicians in that country . So generating hate against the political class as a whole risks dangerous consequences. The media should not help dowse the public anger against the rulers at fault. That is what democracy is all about. The ruling party’s mistakes become the talking point for the opposition. This forces power to shift between the rulers and the opposition.

The media should educate the people to punish the rulers at fault, not bail them out by blaming all of the political class, as that undermines the entire political class forever. It should not allow the rulers to escape punishment. Is anyone listening?

PS: The line articulated by a former foreign sec./others in the War & peace thread is worth examining.We must punish Pak diplomatically if there is no cooperation from it even after the US has made it clear that Pak must work with us in a transparent mode.Apart from so many Indians,a large number of westerners were also singled out,tortured and killed.

India must also strongly protest to Germany -about to sell subs,Brazil about to sell anti-radar ASMs,that it is only encouraging a rogue terrorist state and terrorism by doing so,show then the evidence to their intel services,as the US and Israel have had access to the captured Paki.We must tell those nations including the US, that if they continue to sell arms to Pak that can and will be used against India (as Pak has done for decades,Musharrat got 10 billion dollars from Bush too),it will dramatically affect defence cooperation with India.We will not buy arms and defence related systems from them and ban their forces from using Indian naval and air facilities,plus a stoppage of intel.cooperation too.Brazil is trying sell us Embraer aircraft for our smaller AWACS aircraft,Sweden Eriye AWCS.Pop will go the Gripen's chances then.

We can also as members of the public,boycott German goods too! No buying new Audis,Merc and Beemers and other German white goods."Buy German,Brazilian and US products last",if at all we are forced to do so.Let's start a campaign to boycott goods from those countries that sell arms to Pak.Let BRites be p[ro-active in this crisis.This is the least we can do.We can also write to theri embassies and leaders as well.Public opinion matters a lot and the PIO/NRIs abroad can lobby their respective leaders in this matter.

With reference to the other posts wanting action,Pak is the "epicentre" of global Islamist terror,as we've beens aying for meny years now.It is only now that the rest of the country has woken up to the enormity of the threat ,a rude wake up call to out dear politicos like Rahul Gandhi,who very recently said that devlopment was more important than fighting terror!A sad commentary of the grandson of Indira Gandhi,who should realise that a properous state that does/cannot defend itself will soon be invaded and swallowed up by powerful Vandals,Goths,Visigoths and Huns,Persians,Mongols,Europeans and in our time...Pakis! It appears that he resembles his illustrious great-grandfather more than his grandmother when it comes to defending the nation.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 04 Dec 2008 14:31

vera_k wrote:
RajeshA wrote:What has "Shimla Agreement"/"Kashmir/"UN Resolutions on Kashmir" to do with a "UN Resolution allowing Monitoring and Fighting Terrorist Infrastructure in whole Pakistan"?
India wants to deal with Pakistan bilaterally and this was agreed to in the Simla agreement at our behest.

UN resolutions have to ultimately be implemented by someone. From Pakistan's perspective having India fight terrorist infrastructure within its borders under any pretext is no different than war with India. So we are back to square one with no progress made on the problem.

No, India wants to deal with Pakistan on a bilateral basis as far as Kashmir is concerned, but India has no problem with dealing with Pakistan in a multilateral sense on a gamut of different issues, especially terrorism.

I have already mentioned how the UN Resolution would be implemented in my earlier posts.

A "UN Terrorism Monitoring Commission for Pakistan" with an armed contingent would be established. Basically it will be a "UN Intelligence Agency" within Pakistan and its mission would include:

o gather intelligence within Pakistan
o correlate with intelligence received from other countries (like India)
o verify intelligence received from other countries
o sanction other countries to attack this terrorist infrastructure (thereby curtailing Pakistani sovereignty)
o the commission cannot be held responsible for errors and collateral damage.

Manmeet · Post by **Manmeet** » 04 Dec 2008 15:05

Friends,

What is happening in Mumbai, aftermath of terrorist attacks is unprecedented.
Whole India is catching up with mumbai and the country stands as united as ever.
mumbaikars were saved by our commandos and army and also were saved by some brave men, who considered humanity above all.
If we examine the time line of past 10 year, these foolish politicians have always dosed us with the poison of cowardice and have no will to attack pakistan to actively do vote bank politics.
Nationalism is just contrary to vote bank politics.
Individuals don't make changes in society but institutions do and there is only one institution left in India, which can effectively lead this country from all the trouble and that is our army.
It has been our army that has saved our territories (kashmir), saved Indian citizens from terror strikes, natural calamities (flood etc) and now effectively envolved every where be it kashmir or bihar...
My question is that why the sentiments of mumbaikars and all Indians be now translated to a revolution what India has never seen before.
We are sick of these netas led by mostly congress for past 60 years and have practically ruined the country.
Now sentiments run high and whole country is witnessing it !
Why not now as it has to happen sooner or later then why not sooner?
Why these protests being organised at Gateway of India and else where should be organised at Army cantonments all of the country and mass memorandums be submitted there 'requesting Army to take over foolish Indian political system and rule India from now on?
Please don't say that it is not possible in India.... as we have seen worse than this and insecurity of Indian citizens run high.
All Indian army needs is strong backing by Indian public....

nsa_tanay · Post by **nsa_tanay** » 04 Dec 2008 15:36

One important fact,on some media reports,that 30% of the NSG spend their time safeguarding our dear political elite with about 250+ VVIPs,some with a new Z+ status!.Simply Amazing.In most countries,"VVIP" status is only given to the head of state and the PM.The rest are merely VIPs.The TV feature also showed/said that some of them were being used for domestic duties!I saw recently a CM at an airport accompanied with about 50 various security vehicles,"strike forces",etc.,his own car had four Tata Safaris with guards/commandos hanging on the outsides like monkeys,plus the usual ambulance behind! Why our NSG forces should be used for "protection" beats me.A new PSF (personal/politico security force) of a different kind of police commando should be created,as the main threats to a politico/VIP are assassination theats from bomb blasts and bullets.They do not need special forces commandos who are supposed to go into battle to combat airline haijackers and attacks as we saw last week.

Indian Response to terrorism is to increase protection around those corrupt, rich, powerful, uneducated, criminal politicians and let the poor common people roam nude and unprotected. As a result, we the commom people have been worst affected of this menace.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 04 Dec 2008 16:05

Is it possible to find out the names of all ISI guys, who helped in the creation and sustenance of LeT? May be Maulana Hafiz Muhammad Saeed can shed some light on that, provided we could get at him.

I am in favor of getting all the bank accounts of all Paki Jarnails in Switzerland and elsewhere frozen, until they have not proven that they had nothing to do with LeT. Best way would be to extradite Hafiz Muhammad Saeed to India. Let our interrogators and narco-analysts go over him. Find out the truth, and if those Jarnails seem to be innocent, then their accounts would be unfrozen.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 04 Dec 2008 16:23

Anybody care to predict an Israeli response to the killing of its citizen by Pakistan-backed terrorists? They appear to take better care of their dead than we do of ours.

My take:
* Sabotage of Pakistani Naval assets patrolling the Arabian Sea

* Pakistani consulates around the world recieving packages of explosives/ The Ambassador meeting his end due to unnatural causes.

* If the attack had taken place in September [as was their origianl plan - TOINS]
Something terrible hppening to PAF F-16s taking part in exercises in Turkey

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 04 Dec 2008 17:04

May have been posted earlier,if so please delete.

American sleuths to pick up leads in Pakistan
V.Sudarshan.

THE Federal Bureau of Investigation, which is helping sift the evidence in the Mumbai attack, will try to pick up leads in Pakistan where Indian investigating agencies have no presence or assets. Top intelligence sources say that the American assets in Pakistan that have been put in place after 9/11 will be used to pick up such leads.
The terrorists targeted Americans, Britishers and Israelis, some of whom died alongside Indians and other foreigners. Sources point out that the US will try to uncover additional details about how the attack came about.

Americans, say sources, have access to several critical databases inside Pakistan, including the National Database Registration Authority, NADRA, which issues identity cards to each Pakistani with a unique number. These sources also point out that the US war on terror has also given them access to immigration records of people entering and exiting Pakistan. It is expected that forensic experts at work in Mumbai will be able to generate enough identification for investigators to run on Pakistani databanks in order to get a firmer fix on the culprits and their identities.

Intelligence sources also claim that given the American technical capabilities on satellite phones, the FBI will also work on the evidence generated in Mumbai, when the terrorists took the unusual step of using a satellite phone even while the operation was on, seeking guidance and exchanging information. THESE sources say that the investigations will see unprecedented co-operative activity involving several agencies that now have an interest in this attack. These will also cover e-mails, cross check origins, and telephony. American technical expertise in the field of satellite phones is believed to include voice recognition aspects.

Once all the evidence firms up and a case is registered in Mumbai, although the Interpol will also kick into play, the American national process of dealing with terrorism and its financing will also roll parallelly. Simultaneously, the Interpol processes may also move faster than is usual in view of the unusual convergence of interests among to many other countries whose nationals lost their lives.

The American investigative process is expected to impart a rare political momentum that is likely to bring New Delhi and Washington closer than at any previous point in the fight against terrorism. It will yield a more specific political and financial targeting of the terrorist elements in Pakistan responsible for this particular carnage.

Once the evidence is fir med up New Delhi will take a call on how to further react to the outrage. Government sources point out that New Delhi will react in a manner and a time of its choosing, hinting that there could be surprises in store. Sources also point out that there is a greater understanding in Washington that the attack comes at a particularly trying time when the UPA government is on threshold of an electoral campaign, and the US President-elect Barack Obama has made it clear that India had a right to defend itself.

In that sense, New Delhi apparently is setting the stage for Pakistan to take visible and irreversible action against the purveyors of terrorism or compel Washington to make Pakistan take those actions by holding out the threat that the time is nearing where New Delhi may have to take matters into its own hands. That the Ministry of External Affairs has already begun to brief selective heads of mission on some aspects of the situation is a pointer in this direction.

[email protected]

PS:Will we actually act,even with this tacit OK from Uncle Sam and against what and whom?

samuel.chandra · Post by **samuel.chandra** » 04 Dec 2008 17:10

Chakkunny,

I think thats a very good idea. You are right, the TOI show seems to be more for social causes. Your approach is more for political change. In the long run, however much we hate politicians, in a democracy, we have no other option but to deal with them. Why not replace the old lot with some new young people. In the process, you will get the middle class more involved in politics (and maybe get them to vote). You have a very decent chance to make it happen but pretty much like Obama, you are on your own. If you draw up a decent proposal and contact someone who is already in the business of producing 'kaun benega xxx' kind shows, i think they will find it very interesting. Also, you could target the local municipal/state level elections so the funding requirement wouldnt be that much. Also, i doubt if you need to pay a prize. People who dream to change the country will come to your show anyway. The publicity would be enough motivation.

Good luck. The one problem with initiatives like this is that, you are pretty much on your own. Expect no encouragement / understanding from anyone and it will take a while before you see it work.

chakkunny wrote:This is new to me...Thanks for the heads up.

My take would be that the ToI show did not have an objective towards meaningful change. Change is expensive. Winning that show would mean zilch in the real world. What I'm proposing is a cheap way to give birth to a decent political alternative in the real world.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 04 Dec 2008 17:28

RajeshA

Pl. drop a mail to Chandramohan . Usecure gmail . com

Thx