Indian Response to Terrorism

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Dec 2008 11:01

John Snow wrote:ramana garu here it is.

Privately, Indian officials have told some US interlocutors that India’s nuclear weapons are "assuredly secure" with its survivability and a chain of command ensured.
So why would Pakistan push the losing button? The answer lies in a chilling exchange related in a recent article in the journal Atlantic Monthly that is being circulated widely in the South Asia circuit.
In the article, writer Peter Landesman relates a hair-raising conversation he has with a retired Pakistani brigadier who was serving as an aide to Benazir Bhutto. On a visit to Brigadier Amanullah’s house in Islamabad, Landesman sees a landscape painting showing the Bhuttos with what he (Landesman) thinks is a rocket heading to the moon. He asks the Brigadier about it, and is told the painting is actually "A nuclear warhead heading to India".
The rest of the narrative in Landesman’s own words:
I thought he was making a joke. Then I saw he wasn't. I thought of the shrines to Pakistan's nuclear-weapons site, prominently displayed in every city. I told Aman that I was disturbed by the ease with which Pakistanis talk of nuclear war with India.
Aman shook his head. "No," he said matter-of-factly. "This should happen. We should use the bomb."
"For what purpose?" He didn't seem to understand my question. "In retaliation?" I asked.
"Why not?"
"Or first strike?"
"Why not?"
I looked for a sign of irony. None was visible. Rocking his head side to side, his expression becoming more and more withdrawn, Aman launched into a monologue that neither of us, I am sure, knew was coming:
"We should fire at them and take out a few of their cities—Delhi, Bombay, Calcutta," he said. "They should fire back and take Karachi and Lahore. Kill off a hundred or two hundred million people. They should fire at us and it would all be over. They have acted so badly toward us; they have been so mean. We should teach them a lesson. It would teach all of us a lesson. There is no future here, and we need to start over. So many people think this. Have you been to the villages of Pakistan, the interior? There is nothing but dire poverty and pain. The children have no education; there is nothing to look forward to. Go into the villages, see the poverty. There is no drinking water. Small children without shoes walk miles for a drink of water. I go to the villages and I want to cry. My children have no future. None of the children of Pakistan have a future. We are surrounded by nothing but war and suffering. Millions should die away."
"Pakistan should fire pre-emptively?" I asked.
Aman nodded.
"And you are willing to see your children die?"
"Tens of thousands of people are dying in Kashmir, and the only superpower says nothing," Aman said. "America has sided with India because it has interests there." He told me he was willing to see his children be killed. He repeated that they didn't have any future — his children or any other children.
I asked him if he thought he was alone in his thoughts, and Aman made it clear to me that he was not.
"Believe me," he went on, "If I were in charge, I would have already done it."
Aman stopped, as though he'd stunned even himself. Then he added, with quiet forcefulness, "Before I die, I hope I should see it."
It is this hopeless desperation that western officials are warning India about as New Delhi weighs the military option. A country without a future is quite willing to go down and try and take with it a country which is hopeful of its future despite its myriad problems.
For India, the dilemma is obvious: If it submits to this line of thinking (Pakistan’s irrationality), it risks being blackmailed into inaction; if it chooses to call the bluff, it invites the Amanullah solution.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... 387267.cms

Need to read this again and again to understand Paki uniformed jihadi mind. Rice might have got a comprehension of it. PRC will get some pressure.

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 05 Dec 2008 11:16

From what I'm hearing - it is very important for us to analyze any news reports of conversations that Mullen and/or Rice had in Pakistan. These conversations may not have gone as planned. We already have some oddball "scientist" making nuclear threats - the implications need to be studied and analyzed.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 05 Dec 2008 11:20

Raj Malhotra,

I think it will be completely counterproductive for India to mobilize to the border. India should never think or want to occupy Pakistan or overrun Pakistani territory. What India needs to do is to destroy Pakistani assets and infrastructure in sufficient quantity to make the country ungovernable and in fact a wasteland. What kind of military assets will India need to achieve that objective? The mobilization should only be to the extent to prevent spillover into India and for specific specialized raids into Pakistan and only when India is ready to implement the total destruction of the Pakistani military establishment. Because a general mobilization will hurt India more than Pakistan due to far more numerous investors and far larger amounts of capital coming into India being scared off.

Furthermore, stopping the million or billions of US money to the Pakistani Army will not stop terrorism against India because "sub conventional warfare" as the Pakistanis euphemistically refer to terrorism does not cost much (one of the primary reasons the Pakistanis went in for it)

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 05 Dec 2008 11:20

One thing I have read is that Rice went from all bluster to softy and more temperate in language. Why and what does it mean to us?

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 05 Dec 2008 11:22

We already have some oddball "scientist" making nuclear threats - the implications need to be studied and analyzed.

Any link?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Dec 2008 11:27

Arindam wrote:From what I'm hearing - it is very important for us to analyze any news reports of conversations that Mullen and/or Rice had in Pakistan. These conversations may not have gone as planned. We already have some oddball "scientist" making nuclear threats - the implications need to be studied and analyzed.

I too am hearing some chatter. Any more concrete stuff?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 05 Dec 2008 11:29

Arindam wrote:From what I'm hearing - it is very important for us to analyze any news reports of conversations that Mullen and/or Rice had in Pakistan. These conversations may not have gone as planned. We already have some oddball "scientist" making nuclear threats - the implications need to be studied and analyzed.

http://politicsparty.com/whitehouse_analysis.php
“WHITE HOUSE” ANALYSIS
+91-9958976000

PAKISTAN THREATENS TO NUCLEAR BOMB INDIA
IF AMERICA FORCES PAK ARMY TO SURRENDER
ZARDARI-KAYANI SHOCK CONDOLEEZZA RICE
AMERICA WILL SOON BOMB PAK NUCLEAR FACILITY
By P.R.SIDDHARTHA
05 DECEMBER 2008

Pakistan President shocked the United States of America Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice by trying to intimidate her.

RICE THREATENS MILITARY OFFENSIVE & ECONOMIC SANCTIONS

Rice told Pakistan President Asif Zardari and the Army Chief Kayani that the U.S. has Satellite Imagery Evidence of the Terrorists Route from Karachi to Mumbai.

Rice told Zardari and Kayani that the U.S. has evidence about the involvement of the ISI, Lashkar-e-Toiba and the Dawood Gang in the Mumbai Terror Attacks.

Rice told Zardari to hand over the Chief of the Lashkar-e-Toiba Hafiz Sayeed and Dawood and all the other Terrorists named by India.

Rice communicated the strong message from President Bush and President Elect Obama that if Pakistan did not:

Surrender the Terrorists and the Terror Planners to India.

Wind Up the Terrorist Camps in Pakistan

Close Down the Terrorist Activities by the Pakistan Army.

Co-operate with India in punishing the perpetrators of the Mumbai Terrorist Attack.

Then the United States of America would use Military Force to resolve the Terrorist Breeding Centers in Pakistan.

The U.S. would also impose severe Economic Sanctions against Pakistan.

NUCLEAR BLACKMAIL ANGERS AMERICA

The Pakistan Establishment tried to blackmail the United States by terrorizing Condoleezza.

Zardari told Rice:

Some Elements of the Army have complete control of the Nuclear Facility in Pakistan.

If Pakistan is forced to surrender to India then the Elements in the Army could Bomb New Delhi and Mumbai with Nuclear Bombs.

RICE SHOCKED

Rice was shocked at the Pakistan Threat of use of Nuclear Weapons.

Rice has communicated to President Bush and President Elect Obama the Pakistan Threat of using Nuclear Bombs against India.

Rice was advised to soften her statement at the conclusion of the Pakistan Visit.

A visibly shaken Rice did so and returned to America.

AMERICA WILL BOMB PAKISTAN

The United States of America is now, after the Nuclear Threat delivered through Rice, gearing up to initiate a Pre-Emptive Military Offensive against Pakistan to destroy its Nuclear Facility.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 05 Dec 2008 11:40

Well, if the politicsparty report is accurate, then the Americans have learnt first hand the degree of hatred that the Pakistanis have towards India. And that there is no other option but to kill a rabid dog.

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 05 Dec 2008 11:43

ldev - here's the link that I have - this may have appeared in other places - but, I have not had a chance to search for it...
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD213808

Ramana - nothing quotably concrete yet - thats why I wanted to see what begins turning up in US newspapers with good contacts within the administration.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 05 Dec 2008 11:44

That website does come out to be credible in every way...

Frankly nothing new. When Zardari came to announce No First Use, what he was trying to say is that he has no control over the nukes anyway.

But again can't judge a book by its cover.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 05 Dec 2008 11:47

BJP pledges support to govt in fight against terror

Now thats what i'm talking about

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Dec 2008 11:53

Arindam wrote:ldev - here's the link that I have - this may have appeared in other places - but, I have not had a chance to search for it...
http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD213808

Ramana - nothing quotably concrete yet - thats why I wanted to see what begins turning up in US newspapers with good contacts within the administration.

In this forum in some thread I saw the very same remarks by Mubarak Mand. I think a more direct communication has occurred.

--
Check the TSP thread.

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 05 Dec 2008 12:31

Badhai ho Badhai ho !!!

To understand my happiness, please watch the video of Sagarika Ghosh's latest show:

Living in denial? Pak slams terror link proof

Sagarika is enlightened !!!. If IBN & NDTV can be made to realize some core principles that define a puke according to BRF, work becomes easier for others even those politicians who are relaxed when it comes to tackling puke terror.

NOTE: You can only capture the change in Sagarika when you see the video. Simply reading text will not do. And some sentences she uses which contain key phrases are unfortunately not reproduced in the written text. You can only find them in video.

For the lazy ones I will go through the video again tomm and put those specific quotes out for BRFites to read.

Also, paging gurus like Shiv, SSridhar, Ramana, Acharya, Rye, Surinder, CRS, Shaurya, Rangudu that now is the best time to make your analysis on pukistan public. With Sagarika in that mood it will be easy to get what is routine kind of posts on BRF hosted on IBN as articles.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 05 Dec 2008 12:50

how would our thought process work if we think of pakistan as another kashmir for us? albeit in its worse days, ofcourse its a nightmare

here are the initial conditions

de nuked
arrested or decapitated jihadi/ISI/Military leadership
no ownership of military hardware
no migration into India or vice versa

you are left with

islamic and 'hate India' propaganda influenced population
several millions of hand weapons in the hands of unreformable

future pointers

economic boom
unlearning of the bigotry/hatred in the regular population by moderate islamic mullahs
decimation or quarantine lands of the unreformable with WILLING leadership and ground forces (all green)
Kashmir is open for tourism and pandits are back in their original ratio

its a long shot however can happen if the 'planets' align in a rare event

I know you guys are the experts, however poverty is the same everywhere and atleast poor people don't get intimidated by authorities or lobotomized in temples in India

Beyond the Dharma chakra we need a eternal eagle eye atleast until majority of the mindsets move into the 21st century

btw its an opinion and don't take me as unpatriotic

prashanth · Post by **prashanth** » 05 Dec 2008 12:58

Arindam wrote: http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD213808

Now they have both US and India to deal with. They are afraid. Apparently, they expected US to pass off mumbai attacks. Things have not gone the way they wished.
They are regretting the death of 6 americans.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Dec 2008 13:33

Nuclear system ready: Samar

ISLAMABAD (Online) - Nuclear scientist Dr Samar Mubarakmand has said the country that uses nuclear weapon first in case of war would get benefit, adding that country’s nuclear system is ready and “we can launch nuclear missiles within short notice of 10 minutes if India tries to strike and make incursion in Pakistan.”

He was expressing these views in a private TV channel programme on Thursday. He said Pakistan’s nuclear weapons are much stronger and superior to Indian nuclear weapons, as our Shaheen missiles can hit the target. “No city of India can be saved from country’s missiles,” he said. Dr Samar Mubarak asked rulers not to adopt flexible behaviour before Indian’s allegation. “We would have to live with respect in the region. Our weakness would enhance strength of enemies,” he remarked.

While expressing satisfaction over country’s defence situation, he disclosed that India was superior to Pakistan with ratio of 3.5:1 when Pakistan had not conducted missile test but we have equalised the ratio by conducting nuclear missile test. “We have prepared missile keeping in view the country’s need. There is no need of missile to launch attack in overseas”, he said.
Pakistan is fourth country around the world having cruise missile, Dr Samar Mubarak said and added that the nuclear missile test conducted by India was between 8 to 10 tons but Pakistan has nuclear missiles ranging between 25 to 30 tons.

When asked about US drones attack in country’s tribal areas, he said, Air Chief Marshal has already delivered statement that Pakistan has ability to shoot down US drones but now it is a work of government to allow air force to down them.

Leaders from late former Prime Minister Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto to former President Pervez Musharraf have collaborated for completion of atomic programme, he said.

Meanwhile, Dr Samar warned India over any possible aerial violation of Pakistani airspace.
Talking to a private TV channel, he said that advanced Pakistani radars and army were vigilant to thwart any misguided and misjudged adventurism by India.

While criticising American concerns and accusations as a bid to pressurize Pakistan, which have increased after Mumbai attacks, he warned that Pakistan possessed one of the finest and most advanced command and control systems of the world, with no margin for any error. He warned that any foolish and impulsive endeavours by India could very well lead to an escalated war, destructive for both countries.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 05 Dec 2008 13:36

3.5:1? What kind of ratio is that?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 05 Dec 2008 13:37

Paksitan'a attempts at obfuscating & deflecting the blame have taken several forms, some of which are:

India has not presented hard evidence to Pakistan so far {Whatever evidence that will be provided will always be termed inadequate}
India is having elections and these attacks are a part of that process. Blaming Pakistan is one way the Congress party can pass the blame to a common enemy. {After all, India has been having a series of terror attacks since the 90s and they have only been going up in intensity. Obviously, the Mumbai attack has not happened in isolation to be tied up with elections therefore. India has 28 states and 7 union territories and election are being held for just six of them. Besides, elections in two states are already over and a third is partially completed as well. Besides, the opposition parties in India see the same Pakistani hand as the Congress sees.}
Within a few hours after the start of the attack. India began accusing Pakistan. Obviously investigations could not have been completed by that time. {Fortunately for India, one terrorist was caught alive right in the act of committing terror. This happened within 3 hours of the start of the 60 hour drama. This was anything unlike in all the hundreds of terror attacks before. His capture quickly led to recovering other incriminating evidences such as the boat used to reach Mumbai, the GPS device, and the satellite phone. Later, Indian Coast Guard also seized the hijacked Indian trawler that the terrorist identified. These corroborated with the intercepted telephone calls India had information about earlier. It was quite easy to firmly conclude who the terrorists were. Of course, the evidences that will stand in a court of law will take time to produce but a State will not act only after all those formalities are completed}
India is blaming Pakistan to cover up its intelligence failure. {Of course, there is a massive intelligence failure in India. This is India's internal problem. This does not absolve Pakistan of its crime}
Pakistani press is trying to to find some inconsistency here and there in the press, for example about the name of the captured terrorist or the number of terrorsists who carried out the attack. {Apparently, the name of the terrorist was earlier given as Qasab but has since changed to Iman. The number of terrorists involved have been variously quoted. These inconsistencies are either just errors in reporting and minor in nature or lack of complete information, neither of which takes away anything from the overall picture that has emerged. We have seen far worse inconsistencies in the assassinations attempts on Musharraf and Ms. Bhutto. Pakistan immediately blamed Baitul Mehsud, a charge which Mehsud who doesn't let go of an opportunity to own up anything, has vehemently denied. In fact, Ms. Bhutto herself had indicated the quarters which were likely to eliminate her and even mentioned specific names. Pakistan is known for spinning conspiracy theories. A country whose people believe that 9/11 was carried out by Israelis and which has also said that that 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks were inflicted on India by itself or by a combination of India-US and Israel, the famous trio of Hanadi-Yankee-Yehudi, can say anything}
All the articles, columns and op-eds that appear on this subject will also invariably mention a few mandatory statements such as "No doubt Pakistan has uncontrollable forces operating within its borders. No doubt Pakistan has to control them in its own interests. Pakistan has suffered more because of terrorism. Pakistan is in the forefront fighting terrorism. We have banned LeT and frozen their accounts and it does not operate on our soil." etc. {Merely acknowledging the presence of the terrorist outfits is not enough. There is far too much body of evidence to nail down Pakistani perfidy that nobody believes them seriously. After the signing of peace deals in FATA and Swat in May, Pakistan also revoked even the token restrictions it had placed on the various leaders of the terrorist tanzeems, as they demanded an equal treatment. There were open meetings in Karachi after that where LeT, JeM and HuJI leaders made fiery speeches on jihad and formed an umbrella organization called Tehreek Islami Lashkar-e-Mohammedi to coordinate their activities similar to Tehreek-e-Taliban in the NWFP. Ever since, Karachi has become a focal point for these terror organizations}

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 05 Dec 2008 13:43

Sumeet wrote:Badhai ho Badhai ho !!!

To understand my happiness, please watch the video of Sagarika Ghosh's latest show:

Living in denial? Pak slams terror link proof

Sagarika is enlightened !!!. If IBN & NDTV can be made to realize some core principles that define a puke according to BRF, work becomes easier for others even those politicians who are relaxed when it comes to tackling puke terror.

NOTE: You can only capture the change in Sagarika when you see the video. Simply reading text will not do. And some sentences she uses which contain key phrases are unfortunately not reproduced in the written text. You can only find them in video.

For the lazy ones I will go through the video again tomm and put those specific quotes out for BRFites to read.

Also, paging gurus like Shiv, SSridhar, Ramana, Acharya, Rye, Surinder, CRS, Shaurya, Rangudu that now is the best time to make your analysis on pukistan public. With Sagarika in that mood it will be easy to get what is routine kind of posts on BRF hosted on IBN as articles.

Sumeet, please preserve this video. I will need it.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 05 Dec 2008 13:54

Any Indian action that has a strong probability of precipitating a nuclear response on Pakistan's side should be avoided. They are the once who are insane, but not us. So before taking action its is important to have a very good idea of TSP's general levels of insanity and also of specific levels of insanity of all their key players. Do keep in mind that Amritsar, a city of 1.5 million people and a cultural center, is 50km away from Lahore.

However, a red line needs to be drawn and a cost must be levied to serve as future deterrent to terrorist acts, but by all means avoid "unintended consequences." I am no expert, but neither is anyone who claims that Unkil has all of TSP's nuke "secured".

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 05 Dec 2008 14:40

what are pakistan's 'overseas' assets? and how vulnerable are they?

properties
bank accounts
investments in companies, funds...
client regimes
facilities

IMF
World Bank

US Aid
Islamic Aid

...
?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Dec 2008 19:05

There seems to be a lot of concern for the nuclear threat from Pakistan. In my intensive study of Islamic history, I have never found any Islamic army going to the point of committing mass suicide when faced with annihilation. They always bluster, and bluff - for in Islamic thinking, "deception is war, and war is deception" - I think we are confusing terrorist Jihadi behaviour which can be supported in principle but not actively maintained by a very large group of military organization (there are tactical and very pragmatic reasons behind this - it takes a lot of resources, time, and effort to produce a finished human military product). The Islamic theology is shrewd enough to negotiate for survival of its forces (it happened everywhere they were in trouble or facing extinction - in Bangladesh, facing colonial armies in the nineteenth century in the heartland of Islam in the middle east, etc.) it knows it will need to continue its long term Islamic subjugation of the world agenda.

Yes Pakistan can use its nuclear warheads on India, but the reason of this bluster is their paranoid conviction and perhaps with good justification, that India will not risk collateral damage of a nuclear war. It is this fundamental belief that sustains them. Does India have the astute leadership to take on the bluff and convincingly convey to the TSP that India is not afraid of risking such collateral damage if that wipes TSP off? It would be tactically crucial to place nuclear warheads on nuclear capable submarines placed in the Arabian sea, and start negotiating with the Afghan government for a military alliance (I know I know, probably much to US delight!) to take the fight from Afghan side. This Afghan front is not that unrealistic, if managed within scale. First of all it provides good political cover as simply helping in humanitarian operations and fight aginst "terror". (There is no use now any longer hiding behind "neutrality" when Jihadi terror is obviously targeting India!). It provides Indian military with valuable experience of operating on Pakistani territory - or territory very similar to Pakistan. Political wings attached to this military presence can build valuable networks within the Pashtuns, and also gives avenues for long term presence in the area. Militarily, this area to the north and west of Multan is strategically important for future surgical moves to cut off the Kashmir valley from the rest of Pakjab, and a pincer move surrounding Pakjab that can isolate Sind and Balochistan.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 05 Dec 2008 19:13

dont come with ideas so fast, NSA and CMG are unable to cope with information deluge.
1 samosa can stimulate the brain for 1/2 an idea posted here, and 1 cup chai for the other third half as they say here in massa land in basketball and foot ball comentaries.

Any way
are the 11th day Karma kanda over.

( when I was in middle school if politicians would not act on popular anger of the people, we would send them Saris, Haldi and Choodi packets by mail or hand over in person, these days if we try that they will bitch about the quality while taking and handing over to their keeps right infront of public.... Kitna badalgaya insan,..... dekh teri desh ki halath....)

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Dec 2008 19:34

well, chudi+haldi+sari is insulting to the women of the country not to politicians - the old Sanskrit saying has it all - "Nripaniti barangana-sama" - for people who have already accepted "barangana" status, chudi+haldi+sari is a natural part of professional life.

Ideas are generated not for the "barangana"'s benefits - (there are probably many more real patriots among the real "barangans" of the country - and I would request that the haldi+churi+sari reference should not be used - it generically insults women, many of whom fought bravely for the country's independence and suffered willingly for patriotic reasons in numerous conflicts), but so that hopefully, upcoming generations who will go into politics or the army can think on these and in the future take steps to realize our common goal.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Dec 2008 19:38

plausible!?....

India has ‘proof of ISI involvement’

Siddharth Varadarajan

But it is also wary of walking into trap of escalating hostility

New Delhi: India has proof of the involvement of Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence agency in last week’s terrorist attacks in Mumbai but will not level a public accusation because the ensuing tension in bilateral relations would play into the hands of those responsible for the incidents, authoritative sources claimed here on Thursday.

Asked for the sort of proof linking the ISI to the attacks, the sources said investigators had “the names of the handlers and trainers, the locations where the training was held, and some of their communication through Voice over Internet Protocol have addresses that have been used by known ISI people before.”

The sources also clarified that contrary to media reports in India and Pakistan, the demarche which was handed over to the Pakistani side earlier this week did not contain the list of 20 most wanted terrorists that had first been given to Islamabad in 2000. Once the media started saying India was demanding the immediate handing over of the 20 fugitives, of course, the Government could hardly contradict these reports since their return has been a long-standing Indian demand, the sources added.

The demarche made only a pro forma reference to the return of unnamed fugitives but was otherwise exclusively focused on the Lashkar-e-Taiba and its leader Hafiz Saeed, whom New Delhi regards as the perpetrators of the Mumbai terror strikes.

The sources said that India did not believe the civilian government in Pakistan was involved in the incidents. Asked about the Pakistani Army chief’s potential role, they said it would be surprising if the ISI were able to operate without the military leadership’s knowledge.

Describing Pakistan as a country with a fragmented power structure, the sources said India’s response to what has happened in Mumbai could not be the same as in December 2001, when a terrorist attack on Parliament triggered the offensive deployment of troops on the border and the suspension or downgrading of transport and diplomatic links. “Then, we were dealing with one Pakistan. There was Musharraf and that was it. Today, the situation is different.”

The Pakistani Army would very much like a military crisis on the border with India because that would relieve the pressures it was facing on the Afghan front. “Our dilemma is that we don’t want to play their game — we want them to continue being engaged in the fight against terrorism in the west because that’s also our war. But we can’t give them a pass either. The perpetrators have to be fixed.”

It was because of this complexity, the sources added, that India’s public response has been very limited.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 05 Dec 2008 19:53

x posted in Why are we afraid of Pakistan thread...

What makes me really upset is why do we repeatedly cut such a pathetic figure in front of ourselves and in front of the world when attacked!!

Nobody respects anyone who lacks self respect!! It is so disgusting!!

Why this pathetic pleading in front of the world community to come to our rescue??

When will India get the spine to set it's own agenda rather than being subject to the whims and fancies of others when it comes to something as vital as our own national security????

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/PM_l ... latestnews

Prime Minister looks to world assistance in punishing Mumbai attackers
5 Dec 2008, 1842 hrs IST, PTI

NEW DELHI: Asserting that perpetrators of the Mumbai terror carnage should be punished, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Friday said India will

await the outcome of the international community's efforts in this regard before deciding on its options.

Asked about the military, political and economic options before India in dealing with those behind the terror attacks, Singh responded with a cryptic "We will wait for the outcome" of the world community's efforts.

Singh, who was addressing a joint press conference with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev after their talks, made it clear that India wanted the US and others to put pressure on Pakistan to ensure that those behind the "horrible" crime in Mumbai are punished.

"I have impressed upon all the world leaders who called me that people of India feel a sense of hurt and anger as never seen before," he said.

"It is the obligation of all concerned to ensure that perpetrators of this horrible crime are brought to book.
That is our message to everybody and anybody who have come here," Singh said.

His response came when asked whether India had requested US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, during her visit here on Wednesday, to tell Pakistan to arrest Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) chief Hafiz Mohd Saeed.

Underlining that "perpetrators of this crime should be brought to book", the Prime Minister said "this message" had been conveyed to Rice as also other world leaders.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Dec 2008 20:11

I am not sure how reliable the following is:

PAKISTAN THREATENS TO NUCLEAR BOMB INDIA
IF AMERICA FORCES PAK ARMY TO SURRENDER
ZARDARI-KAYANI SHOCK CONDOLEEZZA RICE
AMERICA WILL SOON BOMB PAK NUCLEAR FACILITY
By P.R.SIDDHARTHA
05 DECEMBER 2008

IF (Huge IF) it is true, then it is a game changer. The Mumbai attack is NO longer a Indo-Pakistan problem.

By a sitting, democratically elected President of Pakistan informing a Secretary of State of the United States that a rogue element within Pakistan has total control over the nukes and they are willing to use them has changed the game totally.

A number of observations:

* Pakistan's plan to irritate India into a military conflict has failed
* This failure has led to the second failure: of resolving the internal conflict (between PA/ISI and the terrorists along Pakistan's western border) has not been defused. This issue manifests itself as moving a 100,000 troops from Pakistan's western border to the border with India threat. An artificially created problem. The US cannot buy into this stupidity
* As stated above, Pakistan has brought the US into the equation, but not as an ally - as the original script had expected.
* With these "threats" the US is now part of the equation, IF NOT THE equation, for a nuke against India is not against "India", but against the kafirs. The US is also a kafir - note that there were two communications to the US to convert to Islam for their own benefit. One of them was to the Bush - to convert to Islam!!
* Zardari has also revealed that there is a greater force within Pakistan than a democratically elected government. In short he is impotent

* It is this rogue element within Pakistan (NOT within the Pakistani Army) that has to be the target of the US

This may just have changed the goal of any efforts to make lasting changes in the region

I also very strongly feel that all this is the result of the Pakistan misreading Obama's comment on Kashmir. Pakistan has taken it to another level, but a very irresponsible one. But, I feel that good will come out of this.

The good news is that boost level intercept is possible from Afghanistan.

vsudhir · Post by **vsudhir** » 05 Dec 2008 20:13

Its quite plausible that AAZ tried his Zardu balm with Basmati. The Zardu balm being the overused contention that (i) A pasrt of Pak's territory, its security and intelligence establishment as well as the radical groups in seminaries and major citiers are not in the Govt's control (ii) Pak shouldn't be pushed too hard lest it is 'destabilized', (iii) the N-option is not unthinkbale in Pak's strategic calculus and might even be used in a first strike.

Trying the balm on Rice could well be a bad move, IMO. Samar Mubarakmand's bluster, no doubt aimed solely at a domestic abdul audience but now bound to be widely circulated outside, is also seriously ill-timed. The US understandably used this Mumbai crisis to push its agenda of securing Afghanistan further but with the message coming out of izloo that they can easily be pushed to nuke India, moi thinks, US might just re-evaluate the sane-enough-to-be-useful assumption its establishment has made abt TSP.

Or maybe, its all just hot air. Maybe unkil has been more aware of TSPian dramas frm the beginning and was also aware of the Mumbai attacks beforehand, perhaps. Who knows. But the way things seem to be going right now, US seems to be seriously pissed with TSP and the pentagon/MoD establishment in US will have an ever harder time argueing TSP's case there. JMTPs onlee.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Dec 2008 20:16

If non-state-actors are sourced from pakistan and can go about doing terror, the very same non-state-actors can control nuclear weapons in pakistan. Now, this is another headache for Obama.

Obama-Osama [B vs. S] hope doesn't BS this aspect.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Dec 2008 20:25

But it is also wary of walking into trap of escalating hostility

Well, a good excuse if it uses this to stop here and now. This would be plausible, if India uses this opportunity to initiate military presence in the North of Pakistan, as part of "punishment to original perpetrators" and common cause in "fighting terror" - especially since Pak already claims that it is hard pressed to fight "terror" in the North - and it wants GOI to cooperate against "terror" it cannot object to Indian military carrying out operations in the north. If GOI odes this, then it is a reasonable policy that bypasses most problems with direct military action on Pak but gives a strategic edge to India which it can broaden in the future.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Dec 2008 20:27

the N-option is not unthinkbale in Pak's strategic calculus and might even be used in a first strike.

Against whom?

India or the larger and more potent group of Kafirs?

In the equation Pakistan using nukes, then India retaliating, the end is that a Christian force will (re)occupy this subcontinent. And, perhaps even more than the subcontinent. I would not be surprised at all if another "force" occupies SA for instance.

The Mumbai attack is NOT a Pakistani attack on India. It IS - for sure - a Islamic act with the absolute goal to take back the subcontinent for Islam.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 05 Dec 2008 20:33

It was because of this complexity, the sources added, that India’s public response has been very limited.

So when it was trivially simple (one-stop dictator controlling all terrorism) India didn't act.

Now the excuse is "complex". Siddharth Varadarajan does what he does best:

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 05 Dec 2008 20:42

What has all this taught India?

o Democracy in Pakistan makes it complicated for India
o It is best to have a dictator in Pakistan, short on legitimacy and money
o Then one can at least find the proper balls to squeeze, with Zardari we can't even find the balls.

That is why I would rather have Zardari thrown out and chewed up by the Army wallahs, and if we can help this process along, we should do it. Zardari just gives international legitimacy and goodwill to Pakistan, which it doesn't deserve.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Dec 2008 20:43

Against whom? India or the larger and more potent group of Kafirs?

The US, and where it hurts, is too far away. It can also invite severe retaliation and Pak doesn't want to be eliminated altogether - the Muslim society has to be preserved at all costs so that it can multiply and come back to complete Jihad on a future date. It will only hit India, if at all.

In the equation Pakistan using nukes, then India retaliating, the end is that a Christian force will (re)occupy this subcontinent. And, perhaps even more than the subcontinent. I would not be surprised at all if another "force" occupies SA for instance.

No, the ground will be uninhabitable and unusable - no Christians will come in from outside. Yes they can try and convert the remainder, but it will take centuries to recover - not really profitable for the West.

The Mumbai attack is NOT a Pakistani attack on India. It IS - for sure - a Islamic act with the absolute goal to take back the subcontinent for Islam.

Well isn't that too strong a opinion for BR - my impression has been that there is a lack of enthusiasm in identifying the driving motivations in Pak and Jihadis from their root ideology, for it implies that in order to have lasting solutions you have to deal with a programme for complete erasure of that ideology as a practised one. I would suggest a slight alteration of the language - India was never completely under Islam, large pockets of populations remained outside Islam and even politically independent. This is the claim put forward by Paki intellectuals and their sympathisers in the west - that all this violence comes from the trauma of losing power over India to the British, and that the British should have restored power to Muslims when they left - and the claim that only Islam can unite the subcontinent.

We consistently refuse to realize this fundamental mistake of seperating Jihad from Islam, and continue to make people responsible rather than the ideology.

VickersB · Post by **VickersB** » 05 Dec 2008 20:49

"The Mumbai attack is NOT a Pakistani attack on India. It IS - for sure - a Islamic act with the absolute goal to take back the subcontinent for Islam."

Pakistan is ALREADY an Islamic Republic - remember Pakistan = Islam and Islam = Pakistan - I really don't see a difference

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 05 Dec 2008 20:50

Pakis are threatening use of nuclear weapons. Now think of that.
Zardari says: "No first use: I can't find the bloody things anyway. Maybe the Army has them"

"But I don't know WHO in the Army has them". Rice keeps glum expression to avoid

Answer: NOBODY HAS THEM in Pakistan!
But I think the Pakis are now shaking the nuclear saber (which is a piece of cardboard with an atom sign painted on it in green) because if they hold it up their hands shake anyway.

I conclude that they read Johann's post here, and decided to say: "Yes! Yes! If India attacks our "facilities" meaning Real Estate holdings, Pakistan will launch nuclear missiles".

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 05 Dec 2008 20:55

I think Zardari and Pak FM knew about the attacks and they were carried out with their consent.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Dec 2008 20:58

Before Pindi it will be Beijing, Shanghai and Canton that will fly if a nuke is used by TSP.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 05 Dec 2008 20:58

One thing is coming out crystal clear from these events:

Pakistans possession of Nuclear Weapons is a BIG threat to India and the World.

Thus they have to be eliminated. The point is when is that to be done?

I have stuck my neck out here quite some time back that the earliest possibility would be one that would be compulsorily enforced on India and the West. That is if the Taliban sweeps Pakistan. However the timelines seem to be shrinking.

Frankly India's strike options on Pakistan are limited in scope presently without running great risks on India presently.

But India can display conviction still without a militaristic approach.

Options:

1. Recognize the ISI as a terrorist organization. On Par with how we treat LeT, JEM cadres. Top leaders liable for prosecution/ arrest/ detention.

2. Break in diplomatic relations and dealings.

The above can be put in place till the Pakistan Civilian Govt demonstrates it's complete domination over the ISI /PA combo. This demonstration will involve handing over LeT head, Dawood. Key people responsible for the Mumbai blasts for a full scale open and transparent trial UNDER Indian Law.

Till then we use all our diplomatic muscle and power to convince the West and rest, that nothing will budge in our relations UNTIL this is undone as step 101. There will be no == reciprocity demand tolerated from the Pakistani side. This is ABSOLUTELY the bottom line for India in it's dealing with the Paki's.

Apart from this India must tell it possesses no other option but War to destroy this fragmented and irresponsible plausible deniability institutional structure in existence in Pakistan.

Just wondering if this is the absolute minimum we all can agree on?

bahdada · Post by **bahdada** » 05 Dec 2008 21:17

harbans wrote:One thing is coming out crystal clear from these events:

Pakistans possession of Nuclear Weapons is a BIG threat to India and the World.

Thus they have to be eliminated. The point is when is that to be done?

Ever wonder what the eff our Intelligentsia was thinking as the Paki's pursued their weapon in the first place? I'm sorry it's been a week and we're still pussyfooting with Pakistan and the perpetrators who're giving interviews and conducting media tours of their facilities. Nothing has changed and nothing will change.

Blood and life is cheap in India and even cheaper to the people in power.