Discussion on Indian Special Forces

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 06 Dec 2008 13:56

At the risk of sounding treasonous, I am not going to criticize the operations at Oberoi or Taj, which, as pointed out repeatedly, were unprecedented and a first for CT Forces around the world.

What I'm not so sure about was the Nariman House Operation, which was really quite a regular CT situation, in that there were a small number of terrorists holding about 6-10 hostages in a small building. In that sense, it certainly seemed a straightforward operation.

If so, why did NSG take so long to capture the place? Is there a reason they did not go in from top and bottom at the earliest? Why did it take a whole day to decide to abseil troops, and once they did abseil, why didn't they storm in (like CT ops should), rather than taking the place slowly, floor by floor.

The reasons I can think of are - Booby-traps set by the piggies, Presswallahs compromising the op by showing shooting positions and no. of troops on roof in real time. but why they took a whole day to assault the bldg, with such heavy firepower used bothers me. Other rescue ops like the SAS raid on Iran Embassy or the like seem to have favored the hard and fast approach, as have most others. So were there any specific reasons why NSG went in the way they did???

Also, I'm still not able to figure out why they didn't storm the place in a coordinated top-bottom attack. From what I can gather, Gajendar Singh did try to go to the 3rd floor, but got shot. One thinks that if they had gone in hard and fast, they may have suffered some casualties, but the Hostages would have been saved - most of them at least.

Could some of the posters here with a clearer picture of the tactics plz explain this to me.... its really troubling me, and I want to rest my doubts.

Thanks in Advance

Himanshu · Post by **Himanshu** » 06 Dec 2008 14:26

You are not alone with these doubts.. I am still grappling with the fact that if you have to corner the guys one has to go 3D way..
Top-> Down
Bottom->Up
entering the buildings from the widows through the middle floors etc.. I personally don't know what was the limitations under which NSG was operating.

Another must for any activity like this is to shut out the media from the place

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 06 Dec 2008 15:03

k prasad wrote:If so, why did NSG take so long to capture the place? Is there a reason they did not go in from top and bottom at the earliest? Why did it take a whole day to decide to abseil troops, and once they did abseil, why didn't they storm in (like CT ops should), rather than taking the place slowly, floor by floor.

My assessment is only as good as yours, but the following points come to mind when compared to Operation Nimrod by SAS (iran embassy assault):

1. In Nimrod the SAS had time Wed - Friday to plan their assault. No such luxury in Nariman House and probably no plans available.

2. In Nariman house the terrorists wanted to die. You dont come in with your guns blazing when the purpose of the other guy is to only kill you. Why would NSG risk their men?

3. The hostages were already dead in Nariman House. Theoretically there was no further damage that they could have done. So why is the hurry.

Remember that these are real men who are putting lives on stake. "going in" fast has risks which need not be taken in that situaation.

sum · Post by **sum** » 06 Dec 2008 18:41

1. In Nimrod the SAS had time Wed - Friday to plan their assault. No such luxury in Nariman House and probably no plans available.

I would assume that this was the most important reason for the hesitant approach(if any) of the NSG, the lack of time for proper planning and lack of proper layouts of the place which meant that the commandos were just walking blind every step without knowing what to expect next.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 06 Dec 2008 19:54

^^^^

I think what happened here can be compared to Russia Beslan hostage crisis, where Alpha suffered casualties when operation started unexpectedly and there was no element of surprise.

CT forces depend heavily on surprise and superior mission planning, but they didn't had any of these here (specially when our media reported how many CT were being airdropped and where).

I think against such suicide missions no CT operation can be designed. Either blow the building or take them out from some distance.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 06 Dec 2008 20:56

Raja Bose wrote:They wont be strolling around in broad daylight with NVGs strapped to their heads unless they want to go blind....NSG has NVG and TIs....probably put into use but then also remember that piglets were setting fire all over the place which is a pretty good tactics to negate advantages of having these fancy gegaws.

Those NVGs can be swiveled up when not in use. So when there is adequate light i.e. fire or the user is up in the open, he can swivel it up and when entering a dark room (typical scenerio at Taj/Trident) the NVG can be deployed. Some NVGs are for one eye only and some are binocular type, not sure which one the NSG uses.

Cheers....

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 06 Dec 2008 23:47

k prasad, with 300-1000 hostages in taj and trident per possible estimate, and 5-10 in nariman house, which comes first? which will cause more massive loss of life? the nsg had to prioritise till second batch of commandos were flown in. great vilasrao deshmukh, military expert, ask for 200 commandos. ultimately 447 were involved in all 3 op.

second.y ---> this business of second guessing NSG on account of "doubts"- folks, the nsg were there and saw ground situation. we have no idea of actual ground situation. they had access to night vision tech and i think the long telescope thingy mentioned before in an article was a thermal imager. they waited to see if they could fix the hostages position and then ingress.

in nariman, the plan was to attack from top and bottom. the top plan was given away by media coverage of airdropped commandos. so they went in from the bottom floors.

also k prasad, the hostages were killed much before nsg arrived. the attack was launched i think because nsg figured out the same after careful observation and decided no point in waiting.

Vikram_S · Post by **Vikram_S** » 06 Dec 2008 23:49

Himanshu wrote:You are not alone with these doubts.. I am still grappling with the fact that if you have to corner the guys one has to go 3D way..
Top-> Down
Bottom->Up
entering the buildings from the widows through the middle floors etc.. I personally don't know what was the limitations under which NSG was operating.

Another must for any activity like this is to shut out the media from the place

only in movies do ppl enter from windows or when there is ample time to prepare and ppl are not observing, otherwise it is too risky. commandos packed into narrow ladder trying to enter from window are fish in barrel.

Sanjay · Post by **Sanjay** » 07 Dec 2008 01:46

This week's Outlook has an article in which reference is made to the use of Hand Held Thermal Imagers by the NSG.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 07 Dec 2008 02:45

neerajbhandari wrote: Those NVGs can be swiveled up when not in use. So when there is adequate light i.e. fire or the user is up in the open, he can swivel it up and when entering a dark room (typical scenerio at Taj/Trident) the NVG can be deployed. Some NVGs are for one eye only and some are binocular type, not sure which one the NSG uses.

Cheers....

neeraj,

Check Sanjay's link ine on of the previous pages for the NVG that was probably used (seen hanging off a trooper's neck in one of the NSG pics).

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 07 Dec 2008 02:53

I think media was a big issue during Nariman House ops. It was a big issue during SAS ops on Iranian Embassy (Nimrod) too but luckily those terrorists didnt monitor TV or have comms with outside world (cell/satphones etc.) and were rank amateurs compared to what NSG faced in the Nariman House. Also unlike the Iranian embassy and all, Nariman House is located in a super congested area (anybody who has been to that area will testify) with building, electrical wires, cable wires and junk all over the place so not too much moving ground. SAS entered through windows but unlike Nariman house, the windows in the embassy which were breached were much larger and probably did not have grills in addition to balconies all around the embassy. So different ops, different situations, hence, different tactics. BTW based on their Nariman House experiences NSG is updating their training modules to include ops in super congested area (as opposed to usual CQB/FIBUA/what-not).

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 07 Dec 2008 02:54

Sanjay wrote:This week's Outlook has an article in which reference is made to the use of Hand Held Thermal Imagers by the NSG.

If possible, link to the article or its scan please (sssh....)

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 07 Dec 2008 03:26

Here's the link to the Outlook article - look under Oberoi/Trident.

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fo ... F%29&sid=1

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 07 Dec 2008 03:28

^^^ Many Thanks!

Added Later: I have Posted the article in full the GJ's NSG/MARCOS Pic and News thread.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 07 Dec 2008 03:49

Pranay wrote:Here's the link to the Outlook article - look under Oberoi/Trident.

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fo ... F%29&sid=1

wow, excellent article. cleans out most of the rumors.

But one point to be noted in this article: -

"The hotel staff gave us maps of the building and we had footage from a 21 Para (SF) officer on leave. We moved in from the fire exits and climbed up to the 21st floor," says an officer involved in the Oberoi operation.

So this Para Officer went in for recce!! Or maybe happened to be there during attack.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 07 Dec 2008 06:08

Now MoD should formulate policy so that at any given time, we must have atleast 1 Para Cdo/MARCO/SFF or NSG officer/NCO on paid holiday in each of the well known hotels in order to act as 'unofficial hotel marshal' if required!!

George J · Post by **George J** » 07 Dec 2008 06:49

Raja Bose wrote:Check Sanjay's link ine on of the previous pages for the NVG that was probably used (seen hanging off a trooper's neck in one of the NSG pics).

Can someone help me and find post the pic of the putative HHTI, there was torch looking object that an NSG guy was carrying.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 07 Dec 2008 07:21

George J wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:Check Sanjay's link ine on of the previous pages for the NVG that was probably used (seen hanging off a trooper's neck in one of the NSG pics).

Can someone help me and find post the pic of the putative HHTI, there was torch looking object that an NSG guy was carrying.

This ?

link to ofb

Some did post this earlier.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 07 Dec 2008 08:04

Sunil,

GJ is referring to the thermal imager being used by NSG. The thing hanging off the trooper's neck is a passive NVG based on the link you and Sanjay have posted. Probably they used a HHTI like this:

http://www.bel-india.com/index.aspx?q=&sectionid=265

The NVG is made by OFB (didnt find any TI on their products) whereas BEL makes the HHTI under licence.

George J · Post by **George J** » 07 Dec 2008 08:11

OK I remember seeing the pic on some BR thread and I cant find it!!! It's a weary NSG commando carrying a "torch" (you know those boxy looking Eveready torches that have 4 D battery) and someone even asked what it was. I was going to get back to it but never did.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 07 Dec 2008 08:20

George J wrote:OK I remember seeing the pic on some BR thread and I cant find it!!! It's a weary NSG commando carrying a "torch" (you know those boxy looking Eveready torches that have 4 D battery) and someone even asked what it was. I was going to get back to it but never did.

Oh ! I remember that..wasn't that at Nariman House?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 07 Dec 2008 08:30

GJ kaka I think you are referring to this:

George J · Post by **George J** » 07 Dec 2008 08:31

Nope, this (from the Newbie thread, posted by Hiten):

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 07 Dec 2008 08:40

Almost seems to be too heavy though seems to have a strap of some kind....does look like a very heavy duty flashlight of the kind carried by police in amirkhan.

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 07 Dec 2008 08:47

Thankfully the Garuds will be compatible with NSG ...

http://www.indiadefence.com/MilEx.htm

Joint Special Forces Exercise of IAF with NSG

March 2008

Indian Air Force’s special force ‘Garud’ conducted a week long joint exercise with the National Security Guards named ‘Black Eagle – I’. The exercise was conducted in two phases from 07 Mar 08 to 14 Mar 08. The first phase was conducted at Garud Regimental Training Centre (GRTC) and the second phase was conducted at NSG Force Headquarters at Manesar. The aim of the exercise was to develop compatibility between the Special Forces on each other’s tactics, techniques and procedures and hone their collective skills for special missions. The exercise cultiminated with a capability demonstration by joint forces at NSG Manesar on 14 Mar 08. This demonstration was witnessed by the Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal FH Major and Director General of National Security Guards Shri Jyoti Krishan Dutt IPS. Senior officers from IAF and NSG were also present during the occasion.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Dec 2008 10:38

it is a powerful amirkhan police kind of spotlight. certainly not a light 'torch'
http://www.opticsplanet.net/picture-1-s ... light.html

range of few hundred yds , no filament hence shock or dropping doesnt kill it.

I do think we ought to give handsfree mike fed by extra powerful batteries
to all of ATS/NSG/CQB types as a matter of routine. even the local pandu's
in amirkhan have a better system with mike attached to shoulder.

facial glass is useful to protect against grenade fragments.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 07 Dec 2008 11:03

Singha wrote: I do think we ought to give handsfree mike fed by extra powerful batteries
to all of ATS/NSG/CQB types as a matter of routine. even the local pandu's
in amirkhan have a better system with mike attached to shoulder.

Singha,

The local pandu motorola with shoulder mike (or lapel in case of secret service types) may not betoo suitable for NSG types since you have to twist your head and speak into them....might prove distracting in fast moving CQB situations. What they might need is mikes, earphones integrated into helmets like these SAS types who have it integrated into their gas respirator....which reminds me...has anyone ever seen any pics of NSG operating/training with gas masks??

kaangeya · Post by **kaangeya** » 07 Dec 2008 22:41

The on the shoulder mike Comm gear (to be seen in every cop show in Massaland) or cuff strapped comm gear (in every FBI booted suited types shows) isn't favored by quite a few cops for rough and tumble work. One cop tells me about how he lost his shoulder mike during a scuffle with a juiced up suspect during a drug bust (v.v.v.v.v common) and the 1st thing that happened was that the perp yanked off his mike, and our cop was left fighting the perp with no way of getting in touch with his mates. Real life isn't easy.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 08 Dec 2008 00:31

Raja Bose wrote:
neerajbhandari wrote: Those NVGs can be swiveled up when not in use. So when there is adequate light i.e. fire or the user is up in the open, he can swivel it up and when entering a dark room (typical scenerio at Taj/Trident) the NVG can be deployed. Some NVGs are for one eye only and some are binocular type, not sure which one the NSG uses.

Cheers....
neeraj,

Check Sanjay's link ine on of the previous pages for the NVG that was probably used (seen hanging off a trooper's neck in one of the NSG pics).

PNVG can be mounted on a facemask for hands free operation and can be quickly detached when required.

http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/optical/3.htm

It is quite natural that they were using the NVG handsfree in actual operation. The OFB site says that it can be mounted on facemask (?) for hands free operations. If you check other pics of NVG in operation, you'll find an attatchment to the helmet with a swiveling joint for attatching the NVG.

Cheers

George J · Post by **George J** » 08 Dec 2008 10:59

Singha wrote:it is a powerful amirkhan police kind of spotlight. certainly not a light 'torch'
http://www.opticsplanet.net/picture-1-s ... light.html

Ok I'll buy that, but if it is "standard issue" amreekhan then it should be pretty easy to find the EXACT model online. Even if it is a humble torch given rare it is for us to see NSG and Marcos (and lets hope it stays that way) amongst us it's useful to ID this kinda stuff.

On another note:
I am totally confused. So whats the verdict on the MARCOS arrival time? The DDM are repeating (with NO apparent official source) that they arrived on site at 3-4 am. If that's the version of the truth can we start poo poohing the C-in-C West Command. After all he really does not know what he is talking about and DDM know more than he does about when his folks were actually deployed. He said they were on site by Midnight, and the DDM say it was 3 am. I guess DDM are so much more reliable than Rear Adm. Bedi.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 08 Dec 2008 11:27

GJ,

As per 'unofficial sources' MARCOS were in by midnight and this was confirmed by Radm. Bedi...DDM and their ranks of inbred Rhodes Scholars be damned.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 08 Dec 2008 11:32

^^^
Midnight/earlier makes sense as they would need some time to plan their assault. In addition the had to get their equipment/men organised plus procure the floor plans and accordiing plan their entry and other operational stuff.

I think we are now at a junction where we need to start thinking of ignoring reports in our news media. We all now have read enough reports to make a calculated guess on what these idiot DDMs print.

Anshul · Post by **Anshul** » 08 Dec 2008 14:43

Raja Bose wrote:
Singha wrote: I do think we ought to give handsfree mike fed by extra powerful batteries
to all of ATS/NSG/CQB types as a matter of routine. even the local pandu's
in amirkhan have a better system with mike attached to shoulder.
Singha,

The local pandu motorola with shoulder mike (or lapel in case of secret service types) may not betoo suitable for NSG types since you have to twist your head and speak into them....might prove distracting in fast moving CQB situations. What they might need is mikes, earphones integrated into helmets like these SAS types who have it integrated into their gas respirator....which reminds me...has anyone ever seen any pics of NSG operating/training with gas masks??

Related Link:-

http://defence-strategy.blogspot.com

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 08 Dec 2008 14:51

Raja Bose wrote:Almost seems to be too heavy though seems to have a strap of some kind....does look like a very heavy duty flashlight of the kind carried by police in amirkhan.

another report mentioned hand held thermal imagers being used... isn't this likely to be one of those?

sum · Post by **sum** » 08 Dec 2008 21:02

Errr....what is the final count of NSG injuries?

I am assuming that even are injured are a great loss to the nation since most of them will certainly be discharged from the NSG which will make the force poorer by their skills.

I could get no concrete numbers of actual NSG men injured with only the 2 deaths being extensively reported.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 09 Dec 2008 03:49

sum,

as per what I recollect, 8 injured - 4 required hospitalization. That includes the 2 commandos who were with Maj. Unnikrishnan: 1 multiple GSW in legs, shoulder; 1 shrapnel injury and GSW in hand; 1 officer with eye injury; 1 I have no idea). Apart from the officer with eye injury, unlikely others will get disability discharges (their deputation with NSG may or may not be up by the time they recover though).

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 09 Dec 2008 03:51

Lalmohan wrote:
Raja Bose wrote:Almost seems to be too heavy though seems to have a strap of some kind....does look like a very heavy duty flashlight of the kind carried by police in amirkhan.
another report mentioned hand held thermal imagers being used... isn't this likely to be one of those?

From the pic GJ posted, seems more of a spotlight like what Singha Id'ed than a HHTI. Another giveaway is the large lens like thing in the front of the object which clearly looks like a spotlight and unlike any HHTI's lens (but I could be wrong!)

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 09 Dec 2008 05:10

From livefist.blogspot.com

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 743121.jpg

Whats the simple dagger badge about?

Note the Para guy with the NSG Badge in the background

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 09 Dec 2008 05:23

Jagan wrote:From livefist.blogspot.com

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 743121.jpg

Whats the simple dagger badge about?

Note the Para guy with the NSG Badge in the background

Does it say, " Commando " ?!

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 09 Dec 2008 05:48

The guy with NSG badge doesnt seem to be a para (where are his wings)...seems to read Madras.